Zaph's design contest: now that it's (almost) over, should we share our designs?

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  • fjhuerta
    Super Senior Member
    • Jun 2006
    • 1140

    Zaph's design contest: now that it's (almost) over, should we share our designs?

    Or, should we wait until winners are announced?

    I'm really curious about the 2 ways. To me, there were very few topologies and crossover points that would work out correctly...
    Javier Huerta
  • fjhuerta
    Super Senior Member
    • Jun 2006
    • 1140

    #2
    Ok, I guess that means "no" or not yet, at least.
    Javier Huerta

    Comment

    • ---k---
      Ultra Senior Member
      • Nov 2005
      • 5202

      #3
      I didn't turn one in. I don't know anyone who did. But lots did.

      I don't see why you couldn't shouldn't share. I doubt our discussions here will influence Zaph.
      - Ryan

      CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
      CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
      CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

      Comment

      • jimangie1973
        Member
        • May 2007
        • 92

        #4
        Here's the response I ended up with, not that it tells you much about the design. :P

        Jim
        Attached Files

        Comment

        • numberoneoppa
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2009
          • 535

          #5
          Originally posted by jimangie1973
          Here's the response I ended up with, not that it tells you much about the design. :P

          Jim
          Oooh, that's a pretty one.
          -Josh

          That feeling when things are finally going right. Yeah, that one.

          Comment

          • lhwidget
            Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 82

            #6
            Everyone's strangely quiet about their designs...

            OK, here's mine, just a 2-way, but it was fun to do (and, as usual, I learned some things). It was nice to work with Zaph's measurement files.
            Attached Files
            Jay T

            My Site

            Comment

            • 5th element
              Supreme Being Moderator
              • Sep 2009
              • 1671

              #7
              Originally posted by lhwidget
              Everyone's strangely quiet about their designs...

              OK, here's mine, just a 2-way, but it was fun to do (and, as usual, I learned some things). It was nice to work with Zaph's measurement files.
              And Zaph didn't think he'd get identical entries, that looks almost exactly like mine, 'cept I went for a slightly higher target impedance at the minimum @ ~4k.

              Trouble is, that design requires hardly any work at all. You start out with a rough guess that'd you'd like a 2khz xover, it has to be 4th order. Well it pretty much designs itself from that point on. I was quite surprised how 'easy' it was to sort out the phase. Some designs I've worked on have been a right pain in the behind to get to work, this was refreshingly easy.

              Although not to put a dampener on other people who perhaps had more trouble with this, it makes it much easier having good design software and being familiar with it.

              It shall be interesting to see who Zaph deems 'worthy'
              What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
              5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
              Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

              Comment

              • lhwidget
                Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 82

                #8
                Originally posted by 5th element
                And Zaph didn't think he'd get identical entries, that looks almost exactly like mine, 'cept I went for a slightly higher target impedance at the minimum @ ~4k.

                Trouble is, that design requires hardly any work at all. You start out with a rough guess that'd you'd like a 2khz xover, it has to be 4th order. Well it pretty much designs itself from that point on. I was quite surprised how 'easy' it was to sort out the phase. Some designs I've worked on have been a right pain in the behind to get to work, this was refreshingly easy.

                Although not to put a dampener on other people who perhaps had more trouble with this, it makes it much easier having good design software and being familiar with it.

                It shall be interesting to see who Zaph deems 'worthy'
                It will be interesting to see the winner.

                I was surprised at how easy it was to match the phase over such a large span too. The large C14 cap in my schematic is basically a phase shifting element, its value is so large it has no effect on the tweeter's frequency response

                I actually put some thought into the XO point, I aimed at 1800 Hz to miss a little bump in the distortion plots of the W14, but didn't want to push the tweeter too hard. I suspect that an XO somewhere between 1200 and 1500 Hz would be better, it would have let me work with the natural roll off of the SB29, instead of trying to roll it off through that bump in its response at about 1800 Hz. Without building it and looking at how hard the SB29 would be working, I wasn't sure, so I didn't push it so far.

                I suspect that with the ZA14's small excursion limit, the tweeter wouldn't be overstressed crossing that low.
                Jay T

                My Site

                Comment

                • jkrutke
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2005
                  • 590

                  #9
                  First off, congrats for Dan Neubecker. I just handed him the 3-way win. Very nicely done and well thought out design, and very unique on top of that. I'll let him talk about that when he's ready. All the 3-ways submitted appeared well designed so this was a hard choice.

                  On to the 2-ways and this will take me a while. There were only ten 3-way entries but there were a LOT of 2-ways. So many that unfortunately some are similar. As you can guess the similar ones are mostly 2k LR4 designs - because these drivers practically design themselves into that.

                  There is a wide range however, Fc from 1100 up to 3500 Hz. Slopes from LR2 up to 8th order. Mostly parallel, a few series and a couple unique topolgy combos. Lots of work ahead of me, and I'll have to be really picky and choosy because every possible design is represented.
                  Zaph|Audio

                  Comment

                  • dlneubec
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 1454

                    #10
                    Thanks John! It was great fun participating.

                    Now that John has announced the 3way winner I will post most of the info on it here. Actually it was a dual designer entry with Paul Kittinger responsible for the TL/box design for the 3way, while I was responsible for exterior design look and the crossover design for the 3way. So congratulations go out to Paul as well!

                    Below is the writeup I provided John for my combined 3-way and 2-way entry, though I have exluded the 2-way section of the submission. Following that are graphs and some of the pdf files representing the 3-way design:

                    Cabaletta: a 2-way and 3-way speaker line

                    Overall Design Notes

                    The decision was made at the outset to design two speakers; a 3-way and a 2-way that would fit together visually and work together as if they were part of a line of speakers. This would allow a builder, for example, to start with the simple 2-way design and then be able to move up to a full range 3-way design and utilize the 2-ways as surrounds. Major common design features include:

                    • Use of the same midrange and tweeter
                    • Midrange/midwoofer on top, tweeter below driver layout
                    • Tapered transmission line, vented cabinets
                    • Common aesthetic look so they integrate well when used together
                    • Exterior crossover access for ease of construction, service or revision

                    Both the 3-way and 2-way are designed with the midrange/midwoofer on top, with the design axis centered on that driver rather than on the tweeter. This layout was chosen for several reasons. The midrange/tweeter may be perceived as having better integration because high frequency sounds often sound like they are coming from a higher vertical location, making this layout sound more like coincident drivers. The tweeter’s acoustic center is a little closer to the listener, hopefully making excellent phase alignment easier to accomplish and tracking over a wider frequency range possible. In the 3-way design, the midrange on top layout moves its floor bounce null lower in frequency, making it easier to keep it out of the driver’s passband. In addition, the look of this layout is fairly unique in DIY circles, potentially increasing interest in these designs.

                    Tapered transmission line box designs were used for both speakers, since they are a form of vented speaker. TLs have a couple of potential benefits as compared to similarly tuned ported boxes. In a 2-way, the midwoofer is reproducing the midrange sounds as well as the bass sounds, so the primary benefit of a TL in that case is a significant reduction, if not elimination of reflections getting back to/through the midwoofer's cone, thus eliminating possible boxy sounds and other undesirable effects. In addition, since midrange and high frequency output is largely attenuated in the stuffing, less can escape from the terminus, which is not the case for a standard ported 2way. In a 3-way, with only its woofer in the TL, those benefits are less significant depending on what frequencies are covered by the woofer.

                    The typical ported box will always have a 4th-order rolloff below the knee in the system response curve. In a TL that can occur but often doesn't depending on the driver itself and the specifics of the TL configuration. A TL having a 3rd-order or less rolloff may have a better transient response than an equivalent driver in a ported box with similar F3. In comparing two essentially equivalent designs, one a TL and the other a ported box, the bass from the TL will often sound better defined and seems far less likely to be "one-note" or boomy bass. TLs are often observed to have less significant problems with room interactions as well.

                    A 2” base was added to both the 2-way and 3-way boxes to house an easily accessible crossover. This keeps the crossover form affecting the performance of the TL box, eases the construction of the crossover, since it doesn’t have to fit through a driver hole, and keeps the crossover more accessible for service or alteration.

                    The crossover design work for these projects was completed in SoundEasy V16 and the TL box design was done using Martin King’s MathCad-based worksheets. Dan Neubecker was responsible for all the design work on the 2-way. Paul Kittinger was responsible for the TL/box design for the 3-way, with Dan contributing the crossover design and exterior look of both boxes and the TL design for the 2way.

                    Cabaletta 3-way

                    The box

                    The box design for the 3-way has a different set of goals. First, it is designed to use the SB Acoustics SB23 for the woofer. It is intended as a near wall design with the back of the box as close as 5” or so from the front wall. This often works better in most folk’s décor. With the proximity to two boundary surfaces, it was decided that little to no BSC would be provided. The woofer was not, however, placed right at the bottom of the enclosure in order to allow for more flexibility in the crossover point due to CTC distance to the midrange. The measurement on the SB 23 includes a 6-ms gated far-field measurement, taken with the speaker in the normal, close-wall location. Merged into that was the nearfield measurement, but with no BSC applied. The thinking was that this should more closely reflect the actual in-room performance of the woofer placed in its normal location. This design is a 25:1 tapered TL featuring an offset driver. Full details on the TL design are provided for both 1-watt and 40-watt inputs. F3 is around 32 Hz. With a 40-watt input the single woofer can get to around 105 db. Xmax is not reached until approximately 23 Hz, with Xmax +15% at around 21 Hz. Response ripple in the TL is limited to approximately +/- 3/4db, but this occurs in the driver stopband.

                    The midrange on top, combined with the 2” base added for the exterior crossover, puts the midrange/design axis at 38.5”(centered on the ZA14 midrange), with the tweeter at 33.5”.

                    The rendered box illustration provided shows a combination of two contrasting hardwoods (Maple and Makore) to match the look of the 2-way, though again, other exterior appearances are viable as long as critical dimensions are maintained.

                    Crossover design

                    For the 3-way, the infinite baffle measurements provided were used for the ZA14 and SB29 and BSC/diffraction applied via simulation in SoundEasy. This was done because the box is 11” wide, versus 8” wide for the on-baffle measurements provided. The woofer measurements used were in-box, as previously described. The midrange is in a sealed box of approximately 11 liters. The lower crossover point, considering baffle step, floor bounce nulls and CTC distance from the woofer to the midrange was chosen at 400 Hz. The upper crossover point chosen is around 1775 Hz. Again, important factors in the crossover design were excellent phase tracking, flat on-axis, good power response and wide polar response. A second-order slope was used for the woofer-to-mid crossover with the intent of improving driver integration.

                    The drivers are utilized in a range where distortion shouldn’t be problematic. This is a bit more of a minimalist crossover with no zobel and simpler attenuation circuits for the woofer and midrange breakup than in the 2-way. The impedance is fairly flat without the zobel. Phase tracking between the woofer and mid is very good from 200 Hz to 2 kHz. The midrange-to-tweeter phase tracking is good from around 1 kHz to 8 kHz, and all three drivers track pretty well from 1 kHz to 3 kHz. The vertical polar response is quite wide for a 3way.

                    The Graphs

                    Overall Frequency Response Sim

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                    Individual Frequency Response with Reverse Null

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                    Acoustic Phase Sim

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                    Vertical Polar Sim at the crossover points

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                    Impedance/Impedance Phase Sim

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                    Transfer Function

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                    Crossover

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                    Box Aesthetic

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                    Below are pdf's of the box dimensions and the floor bounce study. I will be working up more detail on the box design with interior information and dimenstions, etc., but that is not complete yet. I also have a pdf of the Tl design data and graphs, but it is too large to post here. If John puts the design up on his website, they will probably be available there, or we can capture individual graphs to post.

                    After seeing the size of this post, maybe I should have made a new thread entitled Zaph 3way design contest winner, or something!
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by theSven; 25 June 2023, 00:43 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                    Dan N.

                    Comment

                    • 5th element
                      Supreme Being Moderator
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 1671

                      #11
                      Congratulations
                      What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                      5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                      Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                      Comment

                      • Dr.EM
                        Junior Member
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 18

                        #12
                        Congratulations indeed! It appears to be a very well thought out design :T

                        Comment

                        • lhwidget
                          Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 82

                          #13
                          Nice Dan, I always enjoy seeing your design thoughts.

                          Congratulations!
                          Jay T

                          My Site

                          Comment

                          • ---k---
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Nov 2005
                            • 5202

                            #14
                            Am I the only one who can't read Dan's post without having to sidescroll for every line???
                            - Ryan

                            CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                            CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                            CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                            Comment

                            • numberoneoppa
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2009
                              • 535

                              #15
                              Originally posted by ---k---
                              Am I the only one who can't read Dan's post without having to sidescroll for every line???
                              It's the images. Time to zoom out or get a bigger monitor for you!
                              -Josh

                              That feeling when things are finally going right. Yeah, that one.

                              Comment

                              • dlneubec
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Jan 2006
                                • 1454

                                #16
                                Originally posted by ---k---
                                Am I the only one who can't read Dan's post without having to sidescroll for every line???
                                K,

                                I thought about you about you and the width after I posted this. This was the exact screen captures sent to Zaph, so I didn't try to adjust them to smaller for posting. They were taken from my laptop screen which is 1680x1050. Sorry about that!

                                When I get a chance I'll clip them off and edit the post.
                                Dan N.

                                Comment

                                • ---k---
                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2005
                                  • 5202

                                  #17
                                  Thanks. I didn't mean to come off like a jerk... my resolution is set to 1280x800... usually I run firefox in only about 2/3 window... I usually try and post my own stuff at no more than 800x600.
                                  - Ryan

                                  CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                  CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                  CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                  Comment

                                  • dlneubec
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Jan 2006
                                    • 1454

                                    #18
                                    The files have been reduced in width. :T
                                    Dan N.

                                    Comment

                                    • Brewski
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Jan 2010
                                      • 6

                                      #19
                                      Congrats Dan looks like a very nice design. ;x(
                                      Thanks for the contest John was fun to play with PCD for it.

                                      I figured I'd wait until the three way winner was announced before posting up what I was trying to do design wise. I proposed a vented 32 liter tuned to 38 Hz. For the woofers I was trying to stay in the price range of $50.00 dollars a side from a budget perspective. My idea was to use 2 dayton DC160 speakers for the woofers on each side. The model was set for full BSC but the speaker should be placed slightly closer to the wall to get slightly more bass.

                                      Take it easy
                                      Jay
                                      Attached Files
                                      Breakfast Stout - HiVi RT2 II/Aurasound NS6
                                      Imperial Russian Stout - Vifa DX25/Fountek FW146/(2) Fountek FW168s - Built by Fastbike
                                      Ruination 2.5 way - Vifa DX25/Fountek FW168
                                      Levitation TM
                                      - Vifa BC25SG15/Fountek FW168

                                      Comment

                                      • benchtester
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Sep 2007
                                        • 213

                                        #20
                                        Everyone's done a very nice job. I am really impressed by the phase tracking

                                        One little thing is bothers me. Both the woofer crossovers of lhwidget's 2-way (post #6 - caps C7 and C2) and dlnewbec's Cabaletta 3-way (caps C25 and C2) have a high frequency shorts to ground. Admittedly it is a low value, but some high band-width amplifiers may go into oscillations.

                                        When I built my more recent amplifiers, I would add a small zobel network on the amplifier output so that they could drive capacitive loads. But I don't know if this is common to most amplifiers.

                                        The last three components on lhwidget's woofer crossover could be considered a pi network with two caps and one inductor. I think one could figure out an equivalent T-network with two inductors and one cap. This would put the first inductor in series and would increase the high frequency impedance.

                                        I hope I am not being too nit picky, but I am interested in other's opinions. In particular, has this ever caused anyone problems?

                                        Comment

                                        • lhwidget
                                          Member
                                          • Jan 2009
                                          • 82

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by benchtester
                                          Everyone's done a very nice job. I am really impressed by the phase tracking

                                          One little thing is bothers me. Both the woofer crossovers of lhwidget's 2-way (post #6 - caps C7 and C2) and dlnewbec's Cabaletta 3-way (caps C25 and C2) have a high frequency shorts to ground. Admittedly it is a low value, but some high band-width amplifiers may go into oscillations.

                                          When I built my more recent amplifiers, I would add a small zobel network on the amplifier output so that they could drive capacitive loads. But I don't know if this is common to most amplifiers.

                                          The last three components on lhwidget's woofer crossover could be considered a pi network with two caps and one inductor. I think one could figure out an equivalent T-network with two inductors and one cap. This would put the first inductor in series and would increase the high frequency impedance.

                                          I hope I am not being too nit picky, but I am interested in other's opinions. In particular, has this ever caused anyone problems?
                                          Thanks for the feedback Bench. I'm pretty sure the C2 to C7 combo is benign, I stole it from Zaph's design, using C2 to create a notch to catch the ZA14's break up at 9 kHz, but you're right, it is the equivalent of a 0.099 µF cap to ground.

                                          When I built my speakers with the ZA14's and Seas tweeters, I put the small cap across the second inductor (L5), and I had trouble measuring its effectivness. I wish I could say I was trying to prevent what you've described, but I didn't notice it. ops: I was just curious if it would work there. It modeled fine, but the measured response was the opposite of the model (breakup there with the cap, gone without it). I never did figure that out...
                                          Jay T

                                          My Site

                                          Comment

                                          • ---k---
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2005
                                            • 5202

                                            #22
                                            Dan, Thanks. Very nice write up. Thomas will probably come along and split it off if you don't repost it. I think it would be a good thing to have an individual thread for it. Would make it much easier for people to find.
                                            - Ryan

                                            CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                            CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                            CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                            Comment

                                            • NyxOne
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Jan 2008
                                              • 184

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by lhwidget
                                              It will be interesting to see the winner.

                                              I was surprised at how easy it was to match the phase over such a large span too. The large C14 cap in my schematic is basically a phase shifting element, its value is so large it has no effect on the tweeter's frequency response
                                              I just want you to thank you for this trick! I have never tought I could use a large Cap to shift the phase! That's a neat idea that's going in my crossover toolbox! :B

                                              I did a crossover version with xo roaming between 1800hz and 2200hz with very few components but I was unable to have a good phase tracking... at least not as perfect as yours! I've tried your little trick and it worked like a charm! Thanks again!


                                              I have one question for the crossover expert around here. How is Zaph able to use only two components, L6 and C12, for both BSC and as Notch filter to tame the breakup. I've tried real hard to understand how he was able to achieve that with so few components! Any input ?

                                              Edit : While I'm thinking of it, what happens when the phase tracking between the drivers doesn't match ? Does it change anything to the perceived sound ? Does the drivers cancel each other at certain frequencies or does it tilt the polar response ? I just want to understand the impact!

                                              Thanks,
                                              Chuck

                                              Comment

                                              • lhwidget
                                                Member
                                                • Jan 2009
                                                • 82

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by NyxOne
                                                I just want you to thank you for this trick! I have never tought I could use a large Cap to shift the phase! That's a neat idea that's going in my crossover toolbox! :B

                                                I did a crossover version with xo roaming between 1800hz and 2200hz with very few components but I was unable to have a good phase tracking... at least not as perfect as yours! I've tried your little trick and it worked like a charm! Thanks again!


                                                I have one question for the crossover expert around here. How is Zaph able to use only two components, L6 and C12, for both BSC and as Notch filter to tame the breakup. I've tried real hard to understand how he was able to achieve that with so few components! Any input ?

                                                Thanks,
                                                Chuck
                                                You're welcome. I'm still learning, the more experienced members can give you better answers (more precise, maybe with basic equations); If I'm understanding it correctly, the coil is sized for the desired Fc and baffle step compensation. Adding the little cap creates a trap for a specific frequency. This doesn't affect the coil's first purposes, it just adds a third function. (Look at Bench's question above about a possible HF short to ground.)

                                                While I'm tickled that my added capacitor let me tune phase, I don't know if I've stumbled on a well established tuning technique, or just figured out a novel and fairly expensive way to screw something else up

                                                It would be great if Jon, Zaph, Curt C, or any of the other senior members that have a better understanding of basic AC circuits and crossovers could validate this as a good idea.

                                                In a way, there is a problem with programs like SoundEasy and Jeff Bagby's XO design spreadsheet. They allow normal folks (like me) to design crossovers without understanding all the principals involved in the process. While it is fun, and I'm glad these programs are available, I'm frequently surprised at how often my perception of a situation is proven inadequate or just plain wrong. It's a little like the Finite Element Analysis programs I use, if I don't know the boundary conditions, and can't choose a valid/safe guess, all my pretty graphs are meaningless...
                                                Jay T

                                                My Site

                                                Comment

                                                • cjd
                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                  • Dec 2004
                                                  • 5568

                                                  #25
                                                  It's not that it's a "phase tweak" cap, it's that the knee is way out of where you're looking, yet it still does its thing and changes phase wrap.

                                                  Nice looking design Dan!

                                                  If I didn't already have too many projects in the fire right now I would have given this a whirl for fun but... ahh well. The drivers do pretty much design themselves into a nice LR4 though, and that's not a bad thing!

                                                  I may still do a design sort-of in the spirit of this competition, but allow myself the extra changes I wanted to make re: box. I need some speakers for the bedroom, and they need to be mounted really poorly for any kind of stereo imaging unless I do something different... And I know what it is, but... heh. Too many projects! Might need a lathe...
                                                  diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Paul K.
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Jul 2008
                                                    • 180

                                                    #26
                                                    Here's the TL's response...

                                                    While Dan has a lots more information from me on the TL he might choose to post, I'm posting the system response graph that I modeled for my contribution to this project. In the red line in the graph you can see that F3 is right at 30 Hz, F6 is ~24 Hz and F10 is ~20 Hz. These resulted from modeling with Zaph's T/S measurements for this SB23 8-inch woofer. If you model with SB's published T/S values in this exact same TL, the output is ~1 dB higher across the range and F3 is a bit higher at ~32 Hz. The part of the box containing the TL, woofer and tweeter has a gross volume of ~2.5 cubic feet.
                                                    Paul
                                                    Attached Files

                                                    Comment

                                                    • lhwidget
                                                      Member
                                                      • Jan 2009
                                                      • 82

                                                      #27
                                                      Thanks Chris, I thought that was what was happening. Any known bad effects?
                                                      Jay T

                                                      My Site

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Curt C
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Feb 2005
                                                        • 791

                                                        #28
                                                        Congratulations Dan and Paul ! Certainly an elegent and well turned out design!

                                                        C
                                                        Curt's Speaker Design Works

                                                        Comment

                                                        • HareBrained
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Jul 2008
                                                          • 230

                                                          #29
                                                          Congrats Dan. It's a nice looking design. Could you post a cross-section of the enclosure so we can see how the taper is accommodated?
                                                          John

                                                          Comment

                                                          • dlneubec
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Jan 2006
                                                            • 1454

                                                            #30
                                                            Yes, eventually. Paul did a hand line drawing on graph paper and I wanted to draw it up in cad so it is easier to read, though I haven't gotten to it yet. I'm trying to get the Blades ready for InDIYana on the 23rd - 24th.

                                                            I may repost the design in its own thread, once everything is ready.
                                                            Dan N.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • dlneubec
                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                              • Jan 2006
                                                              • 1454

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Curt C
                                                              Congratulations Dan and Paul ! Certainly an elegent and well turned out design!

                                                              C
                                                              Thanks Curt, I try to pick up some tricks from the masters, like yourself. :T
                                                              Dan N.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • fjhuerta
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Jun 2006
                                                                • 1140

                                                                #32
                                                                Zaph is going to pick 4 winners! That's really cool!
                                                                Javier Huerta

                                                                Comment

                                                                • DancesWithBeers
                                                                  Member
                                                                  • Dec 2008
                                                                  • 67

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by fjhuerta
                                                                  Zaph is going to pick 4 winners! That's really cool!
                                                                  Looks like you won first place. Congrats.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • lhwidget
                                                                    Member
                                                                    • Jan 2009
                                                                    • 82

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Congratulations Francisco!

                                                                    I hope you post your design soon, I'm really interested in your design and Alexander's. Actually, all of them sound interesting ('cept mine)!
                                                                    Jay T

                                                                    My Site

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • dlneubec
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Jan 2006
                                                                      • 1454

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Congrats to fjhuerta and the 3 runners up in the 2-way portion of the competition! :T
                                                                      Dan N.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • lhwidget
                                                                        Member
                                                                        • Jan 2009
                                                                        • 82

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Thanks Dan!

                                                                        I've enjoyed reading your posts on your projects immensely over the years. You've put more art into technically complicated, well executed speakers than most of us put together.
                                                                        Jay T

                                                                        My Site

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Nathan P
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Mar 2006
                                                                          • 226

                                                                          #37
                                                                          I missed the design competition initial thread, but I think the winners should get a set of the drivers to show off their designs with

                                                                          Nice work. Is there another thread with the other winners designs in it?

                                                                          Nathan

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • ---k---
                                                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                                                            • Nov 2005
                                                                            • 5202

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Congrats Javier! :T

                                                                            I'm looking forward to seeing the different designs.
                                                                            - Ryan

                                                                            CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                            CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                            CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • lhwidget
                                                                              Member
                                                                              • Jan 2009
                                                                              • 82

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by fjhuerta
                                                                              Or, should we wait until winners are announced?

                                                                              I'm really curious about the 2 ways. To me, there were very few topologies and crossover points that would work out correctly...
                                                                              No wonder you were curious and wanted to post early... :B
                                                                              Jay T

                                                                              My Site

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • NyxOne
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Jan 2008
                                                                                • 184

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Congratulations fjhuerta!

                                                                                Now show us that xover! :B

                                                                                Chuck

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Dave Bullet
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Jul 2007
                                                                                  • 474

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  I just tried to PM you Javier to congratulate you on your win - your mailbox is full - lol.

                                                                                  Must be from all those job offers flooding in :-)

                                                                                  ....

                                                                                  Congratulations Javier on winning what looked like a very tight competition.

                                                                                  Well done!
                                                                                  Dave.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • MikePM
                                                                                    Junior Member
                                                                                    • Jun 2005
                                                                                    • 24

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    I have been impressed by the competition for both the two and three way designs and wanted to know which, if any, of these designs were built and tested or if they were more of a design study submitted based on modeling?

                                                                                    With respect to the four top 2-way designs and the winning 3-way, if it was built, what are your impressions of the drivers and how do you think your design sounds compared to some of the more popular designs discussed in the forum.

                                                                                    I appreciate any comments you can provide since I'm thinking of trying one of these projects with my son to get him started on high(er) fidelity.

                                                                                    Thanks again for participating and letting me observe (and learn) from the talent on this forum.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • lhwidget
                                                                                      Member
                                                                                      • Jan 2009
                                                                                      • 82

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by MikePM
                                                                                      I have been impressed by the competition for both the two and three way designs and wanted to know which, if any, of these designs were built and tested or if they were more of a design study submitted based on modeling?

                                                                                      With respect to the four top 2-way designs and the winning 3-way, if it was built, what are your impressions of the drivers and how do you think your design sounds compared to some of the more popular designs discussed in the forum.

                                                                                      I appreciate any comments you can provide since I'm thinking of trying one of these projects with my son to get him started on high(er) fidelity.

                                                                                      Thanks again for participating and letting me observe (and learn) from the talent on this forum.
                                                                                      I wasn't able to build my entry, but I wouldn't hesitate to try it. John's measurement files are a better than mine (might be because of his years of practice vs my months of practice ). Jay Kim posted his design on the PE forum, mine is near the top of this thread. I'm still waiting for Javier to post his winning entry, I'm really wanting to to see it!. I don't know who the 1100 Hz winner is, but I'd like to see his entry also.

                                                                                      I think John built many, if not all of the designs submitted that passed his preliminary inspection (I'm guessing close to 40). I know he built at least one of the non-winning submissions because of his warning to the contestants that one or more of the designs went to 0Ω impedance, even though the modeled results did not.

                                                                                      I'm pretty sure he built and tested the winning designs. For confirmation, we'll have to ask John if he built the winning designs.

                                                                                      Edit
                                                                                      Sorry, I didn't really answer your question...
                                                                                      I built a pair of speakers in sealed 1/4 cubic foot enclosures (I use them with a sub) using the ZA14 woofers and Seas TDFC tweeters.

                                                                                      I've really enjoyed them, very detailed, smooth, non-fatiguing. In the sealed boxes with a sub they'll play over 105 dB with no problems. I actually noticed things in some of my favorite songs I hadn't heard before.

                                                                                      I would expect the SB29's to do a little better. If you use them in vented boxes, without a sub, they will still do a great job, just not as much bass, and not as loud. Good response down to 50 Hz, and output to about 90 - 95 dB before the woofer starts to complain.
                                                                                      Last edited by lhwidget; 11 May 2010, 22:18 Tuesday.
                                                                                      Jay T

                                                                                      My Site

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • fjhuerta
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Jun 2006
                                                                                        • 1140

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        I didn't build my entry, I simulated everythign and made educated guesses based on the information available.

                                                                                        I'll post my schematic later tonight. I couldn't find the file (believe it or not!) but now I know where it is. Nevertheless, Zaph is going to post a write-up later, so that'll be interesting.

                                                                                        It's quite simple - don't expect anything out of the ordinary, though.
                                                                                        Javier Huerta

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • HareBrained
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • Jul 2008
                                                                                          • 230

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by fjhuerta
                                                                                          It's quite simple - don't expect anything out of the ordinary, though.
                                                                                          That just makes it even better. If you start with quality drivers, you shouldn't need anything complex. Why should you have to spend more on the xover than the driver?

                                                                                          Of course with that logic, with the Dayton ND20 tweeters you can only use a cap xover. :B
                                                                                          John

                                                                                          Comment

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