Can you smell what Brando's cooking!?

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  • augerpro
    Super Senior Member
    • Aug 2006
    • 1866

    Can you smell what Brando's cooking!?

    Hi guys. Thought I'd share a bit of info on two speaker projects I've been working on. I'm pretty excited about both, and although they are pretty different conceptually, they are actually have similar design criteria, they just go about it different ways. The first is an update to my Bose Buster design from a couple years ago. That was my first design ever and while fun, it was really a budget design that was not very refined. The BB V2 is much more performance orientated. While high value was important, this more of a "best sound quality from the smallest possible formfactor" speaker. There will be three variants: MTM, TM, and fullrange, with both BSC and on-wall versions. I wanted these to not only sound excellent, but hang right next to a nice plasma tv and not look of out of place.

    The midrange is based on the excellent Fountek FR88-EX. The tweeter will be the Vifa DQ25. Both of these are very low distortion designs with the Fountek having one of the cleanest midranges I've seen in this size driver.

    The MTM will be a third order Butterworth design for the smoothest polar response, especially important for off axis listeners watching a movie. The TM will be either second order Linkwitz-Riley or third order Butterworth, pending some research into the sound differences and the the ability for these drivers to pull of the difficult LR2 slopes.

    Of course bass is an integral part of this design and while a single small sub will be an option, the real deal will be three subs, distributed about the room for the smoothest response from 30-200hz. I'll be adding a walkthrough using something like ARTA or TrueRTA so anyone with a microphone can follow along and get optimize the response and sub/satellite integration. The concepts behind this were inspired by Welti/Harman and Earl Geddes. I hope and expect the optimized three sub version to take the whole system to a very high level. Certainly higher than one would expect given the small form factor. The subs will not just be an afterthought, but the entire sub/satellite integration will be optimized together.

    Now the subs themselves leave open many options, depending on what the builder is trying to accomplish and how they are willing to spend. I'll list the criteria that will govern sub selection and people can choose whatever fits that criteria. Given some effort measuring the in room response we can integrate the different choices in subs quite well. For myself I decided I was going to use three Silverflute 8" 8 ohm woofers. Sure there are better woofers, but the price to performance is very good for these. They have smooth response, easily able to cross at 200hz to the satellites, decent distortion in the bass, good sensitivity, and require a small box. Another thing that helped me decide on these was the availability of the Foster WF-100K amp from Jack Hidley of NHT. This amp and driver combo is a match made in heaven. Perfect amount of power, and low end boost that perfectly matches the natural response of the Silverflute. For example the boost is centered around the same frequency that I'll be tuning the box at (30hz). This means we'll be putting the most power to the driver at the frequencies where it is doing the least work already and driver excursion is a minimum because the port is doing all the work. That is always a good thing! A high pass to protect the driver below tuning and a ton of options to tweak all of these filters make this a perfect amp for this application. I spent $225 and now have three subs that will together will perform at a very high level by leveraging their strengths and working WITH the room, instead of against it.

    Again this will be a complete system that is optimized as a whole, and accounts for the room and works with it. Acoustic solutions to acoustic problems as Jon Marsh would say So enough blah blah, here is a pic of the satellites:

    Click image for larger version

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    The other project is sort of tangent for me into the world of high sensitivity speakers. Some of you may have been following my testing on some drivers for this project and I think we have some solid candidates. The design will be a standmount 2-way, using a 12" woofer mated to a horn loaded compression driver. The intent is to cross these as low as the horn response and CD roll off allow, and where it best matches the directivity of the woofer. Currently it looks like 1200-1300hz is the target.

    The woofer will be excellent Eminence Kappalite 3012HO. This driver is a new design from Eminence and is really a high performer. Response is reasonable smooth for this size woofer, and distortion is very clean, particularly IMD. The horn will be a real gem in the QSC PL-000446-GP that only costs $8 and is obviously designed using Geddes' principles. Frequency and impulse response is very smooth and clean. I'll be adding some 30 ppi foam per Geddes that is visually identical to what I had in my actual Geddes waveguides. I expect all the dynamics of PA horns, but without the horn "sound". The CD is still a bit up in the air. I had planned on a B&C DE12 with mylar diaphragm but the DE160 is also being considered. For the first iteration of this speaker price is a concern. I want something that can be built for $600 per pair for the complete speaker, wood and all. The DE160 starts to push that target a bit but may be worth it.

    The ability to play loud and clean is obviously a goal, but so is the ability to also be delicate when needed. It should be able to go from Wagner to Chemical Brothers to Diana Krall with equal ease. This became a goal as I was listening to a Led Zeppelin song that perfectly captures what this speaker is all about, No Quarter:

    Click image for larger version  Name:	HVHE004.webp Views:	0 Size:	64.4 KB ID:	939691

    Click image for larger version  Name:	HVHE006.webp Views:	0 Size:	26.3 KB ID:	939692

    Still pretty raw as the veneer is unfinished and baffle is not yet finished in the black duplicolor textured finish yet.
    Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 09:50 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
    ~Brandon 8O
    Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
    Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
    DriverVault
    Soma Sonus
  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10934

    #2
    Both look very nice...... :T

    Are you sure you don't this split into 2 separate threads?

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

    Comment

    • wkhanna
      Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
      • Jan 2006
      • 5673

      #3
      Oh my god! Those horns look fabulous! I want hear them! Do you have test data on them? This is one of most innovative DIY concepts in ages!

      Fantastic!
      _


      Bill

      Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
      ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

      FinleyAudio

      Comment

      • AJINFLA
        Senior Member
        • Mar 2005
        • 680

        #4
        Know your role and shut your mouth!

        Looks good :W .
        What size roundover bit is that you are using?

        cheers,

        AJ
        Last edited by AJINFLA; 02 August 2009, 21:42 Sunday. Reason: felt like it
        Manufacturer

        Comment

        • wkhanna
          Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
          • Jan 2006
          • 5673

          #5
          Know your role and shut your mouth!

          ????
          _


          Bill

          Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
          ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

          FinleyAudio

          Comment

          • AJINFLA
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2005
            • 680

            #6
            "Brandon says..."
            Manufacturer

            Comment

            • ThomasW
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 10934

              #7
              Stay on the OP's topic

              IB subwoofer FAQ page


              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

              Comment

              • Dennis H
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Aug 2002
                • 3791

                #8
                The horn design is looking good, Brandon! :T "I've got yer econowave right here, pal" (making a Michael Jackson gesture).

                Comment

                • augerpro
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Aug 2006
                  • 1866

                  #9
                  Tom> nah this is just a discussion/heads up thread. When I get to the actual build I'll post separate threads.

                  Bill> haven't started the mesaurements yet but the individual components were tested and the results posted in my Drivervault link. The idea started as Poor man's Geddes Abbey, so many of Earl's design criteria are used here.

                  AJ> 1 1/4" on the front baffle, was going to be 1 1/2" but I have to make a custom base plate for router for that. Trimmed down the width though to 16 1/2". The corners are 1" and the back panel is 3/4".

                  Dennis> be nice don't need to crank Zilch up already, it'll just derail the thread. Well, not here, Tom is a good mod, but it will over there
                  ~Brandon 8O
                  Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                  Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                  DriverVault
                  Soma Sonus

                  Comment

                  • augerpro
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Aug 2006
                    • 1866

                    #10
                    Tip to anyone reading: never use the duplicolor spray on a hot day in the sun. The spray is almost dried before it hits the wood and came out really fuzzy and the smooth coverage I've come to expect from it kind of sucked. I'll actually be sanding these down this week and spraying them in the shade. I've found 70F seems to be perfect to get that even 200 grit finish that I like so much.

                    That said I love the small form factor. These are between 3-4" deep depending on the variant! These are really tiny speakers. I had considered updating the BB when the Dayton RS100 came out, but it really is quite a large speaker for what I was looking to do and the box volume would have to be quite large. No wall speakers. Then these Fountek's came out and I thought what the heck I'll buy one and send it to Zaph as he was doing a driver testing session at that time. The response and especially the distortion surprised the hell out of me. Then when I ran the numbers for box size I knew I had the perfect midrange for V2. Both these and the RS100 are 3" but the RS100 is much bigger physically. This Fountek is closer in size to the TangBand W3-1364, but not as tall. I had considered that at one time as it takes a very small box, but I was never enamored of teh response and basically no usable excursion. The Fountek OTOH is the perfect example of why mathematical xmax is meaningless compared to referencing it at some distortion, currently the 10% HD or IMD in the IEC standard. The Fountek is rated at 1.5mm yet compare it to the HiVi B3S with its claimed 3mm of linear xmax. The Fountek is in a whole 'nother galaxy compared to the HiVi. Look here: http://zaphaudio.com/smalltest/

                    The No Quarter's are using birch ply all around but with the baffle a layer of 3/4" birch ply and 3/4" MDF. They have a very high resonant frequency, like tapping on metal almost. Sounds scary but these frequencies are much easier to damp than the <300hz resonances of MDF, which are basically impossible to damp. We'll see how it pans out, this is the first time I haven't used MDF.

                    I'll have these ready for RMAF and I'll bring them over to Tom's on Sunday for you guys to critique. Finally Tom can't chide me for how high he has to turn up the volume just to hear my speakers
                    ~Brandon 8O
                    Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                    Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                    DriverVault
                    Soma Sonus

                    Comment

                    • AJINFLA
                      Senior Member
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 680

                      #11
                      What is your speakers name-it doesn't matter what the name is!

                      I really do need to pick up one of those 1.5" bits from Harbor Freight. I agree with you that those NHT amps are very nice and flexible. For $35 too 8O. Have a pair myself. I like your idea of a couple small cheap subs for the system.
                      If there are limited entries at diyatl, I may bring a 3rd speaker using that amp.
                      Forgot where you were (no location on your member info), but RMAF and proximity to Tom was the giveaway. I guess you won't be making it to Atlanta with either of those .

                      cheers,

                      AJ
                      Manufacturer

                      Comment

                      • dlneubec
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Jan 2006
                        • 1454

                        #12
                        Very cool projects Brandon. I sure wish I could hear them! :T
                        Dan N.

                        Comment

                        • DeathMonk
                          Senior Member
                          • Jun 2008
                          • 232

                          #13
                          I'm currently almost done building the original Bose Busters for a friend

                          lol he's gonna be pissed.

                          everything looks great btw

                          Comment

                          • JoshK
                            Senior Member
                            • Mar 2005
                            • 748

                            #14
                            Those look awesome (both)! What volume do you estimate your No Quarters to be? Is it sealed? F3?

                            Comment

                            • augerpro
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Aug 2006
                              • 1866

                              #15
                              I believe it was about 60L net, and tuned to 40hz.
                              ~Brandon 8O
                              Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                              Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                              DriverVault
                              Soma Sonus

                              Comment

                              • Saurav
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Dec 2004
                                • 1166

                                #16
                                Damn, I wish I could make it for RMAF this year. So when are you going to work on a HE dipole? Maybe you'll have one done by the 2010 RMAF, which hopefully I'll attend

                                Comment

                                • augerpro
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Aug 2006
                                  • 1866

                                  #17
                                  2010 is probably realistic for the dipole! I do have the drivers picked though: B&C 15NW76, B&C 8NDL51, and the new ESS AMT.
                                  ~Brandon 8O
                                  Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                  Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                  DriverVault
                                  Soma Sonus

                                  Comment

                                  • Mark K
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Feb 2002
                                    • 388

                                    #18
                                    Did I miss it? Where can you get this QSC horn or the 18 sound 1806 and how much are they...?

                                    PS I'm really looking forward to hear a few well designed dynamic/horn systems. My experience is limited and not altogether positive...
                                    www.audioheuristics.org

                                    Comment

                                    • augerpro
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Aug 2006
                                      • 1866

                                      #19
                                      Deathmonk> heh, don't tell your buddy about these Really though the originals were a budget design, so he may not have wanted to shell out the money for these.

                                      Mark> well my experience is pretty limited too. Mostly crappy theaters and live shows. But I did like the Audiokinesis speakers for the short amount of time I heard them at RMAF last year. Ultimately I think it's no different than conventional HiFi-use the right drivers in the right design and it will sound good, just different shortcomings and tradeoffs than HiFi. We'll see. I linked to the QSC horn and usspeaker or loudspeakersplus carry the XT1086.

                                      So the veneer is dyed red and the first coat of poly is on. Looking promising. Back to driver testing though tomorrow. The Beyma CP380M and CP385ND showed up today, so we have those, the BMS 4550 and 4552ND, a QSC/Celestion CD, Accuton 6" woofer, 18 Sound 6ND410, and B&C 8CXT. Oh and two different waveguides for the TangBand 3" dome midrange too. Then that's all the testing until at least winter.
                                      ~Brandon 8O
                                      Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                      Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                      DriverVault
                                      Soma Sonus

                                      Comment

                                      • Paul W
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Oct 2004
                                        • 549

                                        #20
                                        Diggin' the looks of No Quarter! Are you going to test/publish the Azura horn?
                                        Paul

                                        Comment

                                        • augerpro
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Aug 2006
                                          • 1866

                                          #21
                                          Yes the Azura horn will be tested last. Since I can't mount it on my baffle, I have to finish the current driver testing, then break down the big baffle to make room. Then I have to finish a speaker stand that has an adjustable lift and lazy susan top to measure the Azura horn and these two speaker projects.
                                          ~Brandon 8O
                                          Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                          Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                          DriverVault
                                          Soma Sonus

                                          Comment

                                          • Notorious_AK
                                            Junior Member
                                            • May 2008
                                            • 28

                                            #22
                                            augerpro, that horn speaker looks fantastic. that's one of the most interesting DIY builds I've seen. and thanks for link to QSC site. I'm ordering those 15" and 12" horns.

                                            Comment

                                            • peter_m
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Sep 2007
                                              • 227

                                              #23
                                              Augerpro.

                                              great looking speakers. I am looking forward to your BB v2. Don't be a tease, post, POST!

                                              Peter

                                              Comment

                                              • DeathMonk
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Jun 2008
                                                • 232

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by augerpro
                                                Deathmonk> heh, don't tell your buddy about these Really though the originals were a budget design, so he may not have wanted to shell out the money for these.

                                                TBH, I made sure he knew they were a budget design before I started buying all the parts. He was ready to buy a 'HTiB" and I told him NO

                                                I'm building 4 Bose Busters, bought the Bose Buster CC from PoorBoyMike and built a ~2cu ft. sealed RSS315HF+500W amp. Everything is currently being veneered in cherry.

                                                The sub alone is almost worth the price he paid for everything

                                                But I will keep these new designs in mind for future builds...

                                                Comment

                                                • JonMarsh
                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 15282

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by augerpro
                                                  Hi guys. Thought I'd share a bit of info on two speaker projects I've been working on. I'm pretty excited about both, and although they are pretty different conceptually, they are actually have similar design criteria, they just go about it different ways. The first is an update to my Bose Buster design from a couple years ago. That was my first design ever and while fun, it was really a budget design that was not very refined. The BB V2 is much more performance orientated. While high value was important, this more of a "best sound quality from the smallest possible formfactor" speaker. There will be three variants: MTM, TM, and fullrange, with both BSC and on-wall versions. I wanted these to not only sound excellent, but hang right next to a nice plasma tv and not look of out of place.

                                                  The midrange is based on the excellent Fountek FR88-EX. The tweeter will be the Vifa DQ25. Both of these are very low distortion designs with the Fountek having one of the cleanest midranges I've seen in this size driver.

                                                  The MTM will be a third order Butterworth design for the smoothest polar response, especially important for off axis listeners watching a movie. The TM will be either second order Linkwitz-Riley or third order Butterworth, pending some research into the sound differences and the the ability for these drivers to pull of the difficult LR2 slopes.

                                                  Of course bass is an integral part of this design and while a single small sub will be an option, the real deal will be three subs, distributed about the room for the smoothest response from 30-200hz. I'll be adding a walkthrough using something like ARTA or TrueRTA so anyone with a microphone can follow along and get optimize the response and sub/satellite integration. The concepts behind this were inspired by Welti/Harman and Earl Geddes. I hope and expect the optimized three sub version to take the whole system to a very high level. Certainly higher than one would expect given the small form factor. The subs will not just be an afterthought, but the entire sub/satellite integration will be optimized together.

                                                  Now the subs themselves leave open many options, depending on what the builder is trying to accomplish and how they are willing to spend. I'll list the criteria that will govern sub selection and people can choose whatever fits that criteria. Given some effort measuring the in room response we can integrate the different choices in subs quite well. For myself I decided I was going to use three Silverflute 8" 8 ohm woofers. Sure there are better woofers, but the price to performance is very good for these. They have smooth response, easily able to cross at 200hz to the satellites, decent distortion in the bass, good sensitivity, and require a small box. Another thing that helped me decide on these was the availability of the Foster WF-100K amp from Jack Hidley of NHT. This amp and driver combo is a match made in heaven. Perfect amount of power, and low end boost that perfectly matches the natural response of the Silverflute. For example the boost is centered around the same frequency that I'll be tuning the box at (30hz). This means we'll be putting the most power to the driver at the frequencies where it is doing the least work already and driver excursion is a minimum because the port is doing all the work. That is always a good thing! A high pass to protect the driver below tuning and a ton of options to tweak all of these filters make this a perfect amp for this application. I spent $225 and now have three subs that will together will perform at a very high level by leveraging their strengths and working WITH the room, instead of against it.

                                                  Again this will be a complete system that is optimized as a whole, and accounts for the room and works with it. Acoustic solutions to acoustic problems as Jon Marsh would say So enough blah blah, here is a pic of the satellites:

                                                  [ATTACH]n41830[/ATTACH]Click image for larger version  Name:	DSCN0286.webp Views:	1 Size:	27.3 KB ID:	939693



                                                  The other project is sort of tangent for me into the world of high sensitivity speakers. Some of you may have been following my testing on some drivers for this project and I think we have some solid candidates. The design will be a standmount 2-way, using a 12" woofer mated to a horn loaded compression driver. The intent is to cross these as low as the horn response and CD roll off allow, and where it best matches the directivity of the woofer. Currently it looks like 1200-1300hz is the target.

                                                  The woofer will be excellent Eminence Kappalite 3012HO. This driver is a new design from Eminence and is really a high performer. Response is reasonable smooth for this size woofer, and distortion is very clean, particularly IMD. The horn will be a real gem in the QSC PL-000446-GP that only costs $8 and is obviously designed using Geddes' principles. Frequency and impulse response is very smooth and clean. I'll be adding some 30 ppi foam per Geddes that is visually identical to what I had in my actual Geddes waveguides. I expect all the dynamics of PA horns, but without the horn "sound". The CD is still a bit up in the air. I had planned on a B&C DE12 with mylar diaphragm but the DE160 is also being considered. For the first iteration of this speaker price is a concern. I want something that can be built for $600 per pair for the complete speaker, wood and all. The DE160 starts to push that target a bit but may be worth it.

                                                  The ability to play loud and clean is obviously a goal, but so is the ability to also be delicate when needed. It should be able to go from Wagner to Chemical Brothers to Diana Krall with equal ease. This became a goal as I was listening to a Led Zeppelin song that perfectly captures what this speaker is all about, No Quarter:

                                                  Click image for larger version Name:	HVHE004.webp Views:	0 Size:	64.4 KB ID:	939691

                                                  Click image for larger version Name:	HVHE006.webp Views:	0 Size:	26.3 KB ID:	939692

                                                  Still pretty raw as the veneer is unfinished and baffle is not yet finished in the black duplicolor textured finish yet.



                                                  I think the little guys are really cute- and the big ones well made- how's the availability on the Founteks? They were out of stock last time I checked. I've been thinking about doing something small with the RS100-4, too.
                                                  Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 09:52 Saturday. Reason: Update quote
                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                  Natalie P
                                                  M8ta
                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                  Isiris
                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                  SMJ
                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                  Calliope
                                                  Ardent D

                                                  In Development...
                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                  Modula PWB
                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                  Comment

                                                  • augerpro
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Aug 2006
                                                    • 1866

                                                    #26
                                                    Deathmonk> make sure he adjusts the tweeter level to taste!!!

                                                    Jon> that Fountek just went out of stock, should be back soon. Probably going to be a popular little driver. I had considered the RS100 too at one point, but you really can't do small with those, at least not this small. You could probably do mini-bookshelf small, but not truly Bose small. It's actually a much bigger than the Fountek, especially the magnet. Add to that TS that demand a bigger box. I did have the idea to make one variant of these with the RS100 as low frequency support for the Fountek in 2.5 or 3 way WMTMW. I may still look into it, but it seems sort of complicated and expensive to do that. We'll see.
                                                    ~Brandon 8O
                                                    Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                                    Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                                    DriverVault
                                                    Soma Sonus

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Hdale85
                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                      • Jan 2006
                                                      • 16075

                                                      #27
                                                      Brandon, how much could I build those little speakers for? I would want to do probably 3 MTM's and 2 TM's. Would make a nice little setup for my bedroom.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • augerpro
                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                        • Aug 2006
                                                        • 1866

                                                        #28
                                                        Hey Dougie! You know I haven't priced it out yet. Looks like roughly $288 for the drivers for the five speakers you list. Not sure what crossovers will be yet. Don't know if you have room or the desire for a sub but one of those Sliverflutes and the NHT amp together is like $80. Pretty cheap for a little sub.

                                                        Jon here is a pic of the Fountek next to the RS100

                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	FR88vsRS100.webp
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                                                        When you want something that can hang on a wall every inch counts and you can see that the RS100 is a much bigger driver.
                                                        Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 09:51 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
                                                        ~Brandon 8O
                                                        Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                                        Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                                        DriverVault
                                                        Soma Sonus

                                                        Comment

                                                        • ---k---
                                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2005
                                                          • 5202

                                                          #29
                                                          Brandon,
                                                          Looking good. You're first pictures don't really put the size of your small speakers into perspective. That last photo helps. A picture with a person or at least a hand would really help.

                                                          It looks like your small ones will be solidly 8 ohm speakers. Might be a good project for my brother some day.

                                                          Keep up the good work. I wish I could make it out there to hear them. Maybe one of these days.
                                                          - Ryan

                                                          CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                          CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                          CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15282

                                                            #30
                                                            Well, I guess my idea of small won't be as small! It puts them in perspective to see them side by side- thanks!
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                            Modula PWB
                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Hdale85
                                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                                              • Jan 2006
                                                              • 16075

                                                              #31
                                                              So probably ~500 bucks for a 5 channel setup. I'd do a sub just not sure what exactly. It's for an upstairs bedroom so don't want anything to crazy.

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                                                              • DeathMonk
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Jun 2008
                                                                • 232

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Dougie085
                                                                So probably ~500 bucks for a 5 channel setup. I'd do a sub just not sure what exactly. It's for an upstairs bedroom so don't want anything to crazy.
                                                                Make one to fit under the bed for some butt rumbling

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                                                                • augerpro
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Aug 2006
                                                                  • 1866

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Just talked to Madisound and the FR88 will be back in 6 weeks. Which is fine since it will be a few weeks until I have the system and crossovers developed.

                                                                  Dougie that is probably a pretty good ballpark estimate. Since it's a bedroom HT system I think you could probably get away with the fullrange version I develop for the rear surrounds, that will drop the price a significant amount.
                                                                  ~Brandon 8O
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                                                                  • augerpro
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Aug 2006
                                                                    • 1866

                                                                    #34
                                                                    So what do you guys think is good free software that would be easy for a novice to use? It really doesn't have to be more than a simple RTA with decent resolution. Something where you can plug in a mic, and play noise and watch the spectrum while you move subs around.
                                                                    ~Brandon 8O
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                                                                    • Saurav
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Dec 2004
                                                                      • 1166

                                                                      #35
                                                                      I liked SynRTA, it's not real RTA because it uses some kind of non-random signal (didn't really try to understand the specifics), but I think the free version goes up to 1/24, while TrueRTA is only 1 octave (though I don't think it costs that much to get to say 1/6th octave).

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                                                                      • augerpro
                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                        • Aug 2006
                                                                        • 1866

                                                                        #36
                                                                        So SynRTA is easy to run for a novice? I'm looking for "start program, press run noise, and watch a spectrum" type simple.
                                                                        ~Brandon 8O
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                                                                        • Saurav
                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                          • Dec 2004
                                                                          • 1166

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Hmm... I think it was almost that simple (maybe some stuff to select what RTA resolution you want, if you don't want the default)... but I really don't remember, and since I would have used that alongside SW and REW and similar apps, I don't think I'd have noticed any user interface difficulties

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                                                                          • augerpro
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Aug 2006
                                                                            • 1866

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Sweet thanks Saurav!

                                                                            So since this is a super small formfactor design and can be hung on a wall I've had to figure out what to do with the crossover and how to deal with the wiring and terminals. If volume is not an issue there is nothing to keep someone from putting the crossover in the speaker, but for anyone needing the tiny form factor and/or hanging it on-wall the crossovers will be external. To connect the crossover to the speaker in an aesthetically pleasing manner I found some in-wall speaker wire at Lowe's that houses four 16 or 18 guage wires. They were out of 16 gauge so I bought the 18. Then I can drill a 7/32" hole in the back of the speaker and route a small groove so the back of the speaker is still flat so it can be hung on a wall. Here is a test pic:

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                                                                            Now use some white wire loom and you have a visually unobtrusive wire for your on wall speakers!

                                                                            BTW what do you electrical types think of the shielding properties of the chrome mylar version of this loom for general wrapping of speaker wire when you are trying to do some cable cleanup?
                                                                            Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 09:51 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
                                                                            ~Brandon 8O
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                                                                            • Saurav
                                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                                              • Dec 2004
                                                                              • 1166

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Disclaimer - not an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

                                                                              Is shielding an issue at speaker wire signal levels? I thought you generally only had to worry about it for interconnects. Anyway... based on what I've seen of interconnects, I think you'd want to ground the shield on one end to be effective. In RCA speaker cables the shield is connected to signal ground, XLRs are better because the shield gets its own pin, so you can send that RF noise straight to chassis ground and bypass the signal circuitry.

                                                                              There's generally nothing grounded on the speaker end, so this means you'd want to ground the amp end. I don't know enough about amp construction to be able to say if the -ve speaker terminal is usually grounded or not. A screw on the amp chassis would probably be better (if it's a receiver with a phono stage, those usually have a screw dedicated for this purpose). Worst case, you might connect it to the -ve speaker terminal, the amp isn't designed for that, and you've just attached an RF antenna to your amp's speaker terminal, that's dumping a bunch of noise into the amp. I dunno, maybe that's impossible... like I said, not an expert.

                                                                              If I were you, I don't think I'd bother with shielding speaker wires

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Irwin AR
                                                                                Junior Member
                                                                                • May 2006
                                                                                • 18

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Beautifully finished design. Just like your previous ones.
                                                                                Those FR88EX design looks yummy.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • augerpro
                                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                                  • Aug 2006
                                                                                  • 1866

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Thanks everyone for the kind replies!

                                                                                  Saurav> interestingly the Lowe's cable in the pic is actually shielded too, and has a ground cable. Solid core wire though.
                                                                                  ~Brandon 8O
                                                                                  Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
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                                                                                  • Saurav
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Dec 2004
                                                                                    • 1166

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Hah. Shows how much I know

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                                                                                    • JonP
                                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                                      • Apr 2006
                                                                                      • 690

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Great... love the little BBv2's... would make killer desk speakers with an appropriate sub...

                                                                                      And will be following the evolution of the No Quarters...

                                                                                      On the sub measuring SW... give REW a shot. Lot going on in that program... most of it oriented to working with subs... lots to learn and use. But, there is a Spectrum Analyzer/RTA section where it is just about "hit a button and you're taking readings" simple.

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                                                                                      • augerpro
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Aug 2006
                                                                                        • 1866

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Cool thanks for the tip, I'll check into it!
                                                                                        ~Brandon 8O
                                                                                        Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                                                                        Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
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                                                                                        • PoorboyMike
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • Oct 2005
                                                                                          • 637

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          I built a set of on-walls for a friends mom last year. He was running his speaker wire in the wall so I built the backs inset 1/4" and used the small PE terminal cups. For hanging them on the wall, Lowes or HD sells really nice professional quality picture frame hangers that are good for up to 100lbs. This keeps the speakers right against the wall for a nice clean install with no visible wires or mounts.

                                                                                          Just a couple ideas for you to throw around. :W

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