Veneering methods

[KennyBradley]

Hello,

I am about to start my first speaker project and have been researching veneering methods. Unfortunately I have not been able to come to any conclusions on the best method. My concerns are not just ease of use but I also want to ensure it will stand the test of time. I will be using raw 0.6mm American black walnut.

Contact Adhesive:
Some people say it has no place in a good workshop, some say cabinet makers use it?? I have heard it should never be used with raw veneer but don't know why??? I have done a few trials with scraps of veneer on MDF and the results look good. My only concern is longevity but I have used it to glue the melamine edging on my kitchen worktops and it has held a very secure joint for 7-8 years with no problems.

PVA Iron on method:
I have done a couple of trials but had problems with this method. I found it bonded strongly in some places but not in others especially ay the edges of the MDF, not sure what I'm doing wrong.

I have also seen glue film http://www.valeveneers.co.uk/ad.html in a couple of places in the UK but have not seen many opinions on it's suitability. Does anyone have any experience of this stuff?

Any advice would be much appreciated. As I said above my main concern is if I am going to invest a lot of time and money I want the results to last without worrying about bubbling or peeling.

Cheers Kenny.

[PMazz]

Contact Adhesive:
Some people say it has no place in a good workshop, some say cabinet makers use it?? I have heard it should never be used with raw veneer but don't know why???

Every cabinet shop I know, including mine, uses contact cement and either phenolic or paper-backed veneer. Use on raw veneer and you may get delamination due to the finish (lacquer, oil, poly...) penetrating the veneer and reacting with the adhesive.

PVA Iron on method:
I have done a couple of trials but had problems with this method. I found it bonded strongly in some places but not in others especially ay the edges of the MDF, not sure what I'm doing wrong.

The iron on method will work fine, you may just need to apply a heavier coat/second coat) on the edges as they soak in quickly. Most problems with raw veneer and this method revolve around the moisture in the glue expanding/curling the veneer. If you've already had success with a trial (mostly) then you've probably dealt with these issues.

have also seen glue film http://www.valeveneers.co.uk/ad.html in a couple of places in the UK but have not seen many opinions on it's suitability. Does anyone have any experience of this stuff?

This is a hot-melt adhesive that comes in sheet form. Bond strength is weak and very susceptible to peeling. To use with raw veneer, your best bet would probably be to seam and tape the veneer into single sized pieces (whatever you need to cover one side) and then apply the glue sheet.

I personally believe the iron-on method is the easiest to master with the least amount of materials/tools and effort.

Pete

[chasw98]

Listen to Pete! He guided me when I first started veneering. The iron on method is almost foolproof. When I am using MDF I put a coat of sanding sealer on the cabinet first, then I apply 2 coats of glue slightly diluted with water to make it spreadable with a roller. I apply 1 coat of glue to the veneer. Let the glue dry thoroughly before doing anything. I use a piece of an old clean sheet to place on the veneer when ironing it so that the veneer does not burn or discolor. Using the iron on method allows for easier positioning when placing the veneer on the project. I have also found that when an edge or corner does not stick well the first time around, you can easily go back and re iron the area to get good adhesion. In really bad cases, I have been able to inject glue in between the surface and the veneer and then re iron again. Practice on some test pieces first to get the hang of it.

Chuck

[BigJim_inFLA]

I agree with Chuck. I just completed my first veneering attempt and it came out great. Two coats of glue on the speaker, one on the veneer. Let them dry fully and iron on. I too had a few spots along the edges that did not seem to hold well at first, but I just ran the iron over again and now its fine. I thinks that's the best part about the iron on method, if it doesn't stick at first just iron some more. The other consideration for me was the fumes in contact cement. I live in a small apartment and most of the work gets done inside. Fumes from contact cement on large cabinet or veneer surfaces would be too much for me.

Jim

[Martyn]

See whether there's a woodworking club in your area. You can learn a huge amount by spending 30 minutes with someone who's already made all the mistakes.

[KennyBradley]

hi guys, thanks for all the replys,

Out of the two methods contact cement has given me the best results, I coated my trial with oil ("solvent-borne, impregnating urethane hardening oil") a few weeks ago and the bond is still strong. If the oil is likely to affect the glue will it have immediate effect or is it likely to deteriorate over a long time?

I've had stightly better results with the iron on method last night, I had been using 2 coats but I applied a couple of extra coats which seemed to help. I am concerned with curling though, it's not realy a problem on a 4" square test pieice but mat be a different story for a 39" x 15" sheet. Is there a recommended type of PVA? I've heard Titebond II mentioned which I think is available in the UK.

Unfortunatley I'm not aware of any local woodworking clubs. I've spoken to a couple of craftsmen but not been able to come up with anymore advice.

Thanks again, Kenny

[PMazz]

I coated my trial with oil ("solvent-borne, impregnating urethane hardening oil") a few weeks ago and the bond is still strong. If the oil is likely to affect the glue will it have immediate effect or is it likely to deteriorate over a long time?

A top caot is prefereable to a penetrating oil. Urethane oil is probably OK tho, as it does have a hardener. I would go with lighter applications over a heavy, wet application. Further coats can be built up after the initial sealer coat has dried w/o causing trouble.

Curling raw veneer is the biggest hurdle. You can try wetting the good face with water right before applying the glue to help stabilize the veneer. You'll also have to deal with the veneer expanding across the grain from the moisture. Seams are especially touchy. The heat from the iron will dissipate most of the moisture, but you may see minor shrinkage on larger surfaces over time. The finish will help stabilize it also.

I've always used Titebond II but many have also used white glue and had no problems.

If you're comfortable with contact adhesive and can achieve a flat finish, it goes on much faster. If you can find spray grade CC give it a try. You'll find it rolls out much easier. I assume you're also using a stipple roller cover?

Pete

[m1ke323]

I just did my first veneering job on a pair of TMWW towers and used the iron on method.

I used a special HeatLock Glue made for ironing on from veneersupplies.com

The difference in the glue is that it suppose to iron faster as well as dry with a rigid glue line, making it easier to sand.

My speakers turned out almost flawless the first time I ever veneered, I wouldn't even consider CC after using this.

As a bonus I was able to do everything inside with the CC toxic fumes.

A tip for the iron on method, I got the best results when I did 2 layers of glue on each surface. They were thick layers too, if I skimped on glue the pieces didn't want to stick. With an even thick coat of glue it works perfect and is very fast to apply.

Almost forgot to say that I used 2 ply wood on wood veneer. With the iron on glue you won't have to worry about the oil or stain reacting with the adhesive.

Mike

[JoshK]

My first attempt at veneering was using raw veneer, pomele sapele (sic), iirc which is very busy. I also tried to turn tight corners. I used CC. It was a nightmare. Those cabinets are in a closet.

I just successfully veneered some of my Arvo Part pieces (prior to hole cutting) using the iron on method with Tightbond and paper backed veneer. I had a minor mishap my first attempt when I didn't let the glue dry enough and it stuck on slightly off center. Second try I let it dry (>1.5 hrs) all the way and then ironed on. This went smoothly. This was much much MUCH easier that using CC and raw veneer, IMHO.

[oxcartdriver]

JoshK

So you'd recommend:
Tight bond on the veneer and base layer.
Dry 1.5 hours
place together and iron on

Is this correct? Sounds easy. I have purchased veneer (paperbacked) and contact cement, but I'm struggling with the weather (low temperatures here) so I can go outside and use the contact cement. Tightbond would allow me to do this operation in the garage.

[ThomasW]

People should really pay close attention to PMazz's recommendations. Pete's the professional cabinetmaker we keep on retainer for the forum...:wink:

[chasw98]

People should really pay close attention to PMazz's recommendations. Pete's the professional cabinetmaker we keep on retainer for the forum...:wink:

Yeah, after Pete taught me how to use the iron on method a bill showed up for consulting services! I paid it gladly, but I didn't understand why the billing address was in Denver and Pete lives in Pennsylvania :huh: . Must be nice having an accountant take care of all that for you :W

[JoshK]

JoshK

So you'd recommend:
Tight bond on the veneer and base layer.
Dry 1.5 hours
place together and iron on

Is this correct? Sounds easy. I have purchased veneer (paperbacked) and contact cement, but I'm struggling with the weather (low temperatures here) so I can go outside and use the contact cement. Tightbond would allow me to do this operation in the garage.

Listen to Pete...yeah that about sums it up, but I got the idea from ppl like Pete.

[Nichol1997]

I just did my first veneering job on a pair of TMWW towers and used the iron on method.

I used a special HeatLock Glue made for ironing on from veneersupplies.com

The difference in the glue is that it suppose to iron faster as well as dry with a rigid glue line, making it easier to sand.

My speakers turned out almost flawless the first time I ever veneered, I wouldn't even consider CC after using this.

As a bonus I was able to do everything inside with the CC toxic fumes.

A tip for the iron on method, I got the best results when I did 2 layers of glue on each surface. They were thick layers too, if I skimped on glue the pieces didn't want to stick. With an even thick coat of glue it works perfect and is very fast to apply.

Almost forgot to say that I used 2 ply wood on wood veneer. With the iron on glue you won't have to worry about the oil or stain reacting with the adhesive.

Mike

I used the same HeatLock glue and used one of their foam rollers to apply it. I used two heavy coats on both surfaces. A fan helps to speed the drying time of the glue. I used 10 mil paper backed veneer from oakwoodveneer.com.

Here is a tip, on some of the edges i noticed it was not a very strong bond. So I simple took a single edged razor blade and put a drop of super glue on each side, then stick the blade in between the veneer and mdf, remove the blade and press down on the surfaces for 10 seconds. This creates a very strong bond.

This was my first time veneering and my speakers came out perfect. It really is just a matter of patience to do a good job.

[Dennis H]

Pete's Veneer FAQ. He's posted it here a couple of times. It's a keeper.

[KennyBradley]

Thanks again for all the help.

I'll see if I can get some Titebond II and have a few more practices. When I get round to the speakers I'll let you know how I get on.

Cheers Kenny

[dynamowhum]

Has anyone used a veneer press? I am under the impression you can roundover all 4 corners this way. Is this correct?

[Martyn]

I built my own vacuum press using an ancient laboratory vacuum pump and some sheet vinyl. There's something almost magical about watching the vacuum being pulled - I love it. I think this is by far the best method, due to the high, even pressure that is exerted on the workpiece (much better than a press made out of clamps and cauls).

Yes, you can do curved surfaces, although it would be difficult to do the intersection of two roundovers. Try it with a sheet of paper if you can't visualise what happens.

[technimac]

Glueing Raw Veneer

This veneering method is a little different, but it works for me and I'm very happy with the results.

I tried Iron-on and CC, but with raw, heavily-flaked white oak veneer, the results with these methods were "bubblicious" and unsuccessful.

I read about this somewhere on a woodworking forum.

First, the raw veneer has to be "softened", using a glycerine/water spray, then dried/flattened by clamping between kraft paper for several days.



Next, the veneer is edge-trimmed, jointed (held together with masking tape) and fitted to the panel to be veneered - in this case the side of a Modula MT. Press-fit, temporary bracing is installed inside the speaker for support during the "pressing".



Tools used are a big tube of Poly glue and and old saw with 15tpi.



Polyurethane glue is then applied to the substrate only. ,


The glue is spread evenly with the back of the saw...



...and screeded with the saw-teeth.



The veneer is placed on the screeded glue.



Air is extruded using a j-roller...



... and platens are stacked on top of the veneer.



The whole thing is seriously clamped all around (first from the center using an 8ton hydraulic jack that extends to my garage ceiling - with the workmate table braced from below to prevent collapse :W ) . Several clamps maintain the position of the veneer, centered on the substrate (with this amount of pressure, the veneer wants to "skate" a bit). 8O

After a couple of hours, the veneered surface is ready for flush-trimming.



The result is here:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=289230&postcount=595

Unfortunately this procedure doesn't work for rounded-over compound corners. To do that, I agree that your best bet is to install solid wood fillets which are then flush-trimmed and rounded-over.

HTH,

Cheers,
Bruce

[Jim85IROC]

Has anybody tried to veneer the MDF prior to cutting it at a 45* angle, then assembling it? Any chip-out on the veneer when doing this?

I've been thinking about doing things this way for two reasons. First, it gives me an elegant solution to veneering a roundover, and secondly, I don't get those ugly veneer lines at the edges. I intend to try this on some scrap wood, but figured I'd try to get feedback here as well.

[KennyBradley]

Technimac, thanks for the reply. Those speakers look amazing, I like the black baffle. I have been considering a clamping method but I was thinking of using Urea formaldehyde (don't know if the water content will cause problems with the veneer curling? poly would probably be better). My speakers are quite large and I don't think I can source enough clamps. I was thinking of a couple of sheets of 3/4" MDF and then using weights to hold it down. Not sure if this will provide enough pressure though.

Been doing a few more tests with the iron-on method. Had much better sucess this time. I tried putting 4 thin coats of PVA to the substrate and nothing on the venner. This did't seem to affect the joint strength if the heat is held on for a little longer and eliminates the problem of the veneer curling. I the end I applied a couple of coats around the edge of the veneer which has improved the bonding at the edges. I also found wiping the substrate with a damp cloth before the veneer is applied forms a stronger bond but the veneer wants to float around a bit.

Thanks again, I'll keep you posted.

[PMazz]

Has anybody tried to veneer the MDF prior to cutting it at a 45* angle, then assembling it? Any chip-out on the veneer when doing this?

This speaker was made from African Mahogany MDF (It is available in numerous species ). All pieces were cut to size and then the saw was set up to make the chamfers. The bond strength of a mitered joint in MDF is actually the strongest glue joint you can get. I used a pneumatic pinner (23G) to hold the joint from slipping while gluing up. Some shops tape and fold the pieces together, but careful glue application is critical if you're staining.


Image not available


Pete

[jbateman]

You can combine a bunch of those previous methods and not need an 8 ton jack.
There's a description of how to bevel cut a panel that works pretty well on veneered substrate. Probably similar to what PMazz used above:

http://www.cjohnhebert.com/Bed.htm

Before I made a vac-bag clamp, I just used angle iron and C-clamps.

Image not available

Image not available
Glue up is a real panic, though.

[KennyBradley]

I made a start with my veneering last night. I went with the PVA iron on method.

I started with one of the sides of the cabinet which is the biggest panel (400x1000mm). Bond seems very strong but the 0.6mm raw veneer has shrunk onder the heat of the iron and one or two cracks have appeared (about 0.5mm wide and 100mm long).

Is there any way to avoid this on the other panels?

What can I do about the cracks? I've had one suggestion of filling the crack with PVA and then sanding over it and the dust will stick to the PVA????

Cheers Kenny

[PMazz]

That's really too wide of a panel to use unbacked veneer and the iron-on method. The moisture in the glue will expand the veneer too much as you've found out. Did you let all the glue dry before ironing? Did it open at the seam? Did you start ironing from the center out to the edges, with the grain?

Try slicing a thin sliver of veneer (follow the grain) from another piece and glue it in place. If you're going to stain, you may want to just use a fill stick after staining and sealing.

Pete

[elfranche]

Ive veneered successfully without the iron, using wet PVA, a J-roller and weights.

[KennyBradley]

Thanks guys,

Yes I let the glue dry out first and I started ironing from the center out to the edges, with the grain. There are no seams in my bit of veneer, the crack just opened along the grain.

I had a go at the other side last night. This time I applied an extra coat of PVA to the substrate and only coated the outside edge of the veneer (about a 1" strip). Before applying the glue to the veneer I Ironed it and I also Ironed the centre of the veneer imediatley before applying it to the substrate.

Results where much better this time.

I had another look at my first attempt. The crack is't as bad as I thought. The veneer is Black American Walnut and the colour varies quite a lot in vertical strips which should make it easier to fill since colour match is less critical. I'll experiment with a thin strip of veneer.

Thanks again. Kenny

[KennyBradley]

Speakers are finally finished. Thanks to every one for your help and advice. They're not perfect but I'm fairly happy with them.

Although the iron on PVA method was simple I found it did have it's problems. I had to ensure the raw veneer was as dry as possible before starting because shrinkage was causing cracks to open up. Thankfully this was only on the first panel and It is now filled with filler wax and is almost indistinguishable.

I also found a lot of pressure had to be applied to the iron to ensure a bond. I worked a small area at a time and went over it with a veneer hammer while still hot. I have just noticed one small area (about the size of a thumb nail) which has not bonded. Not sure what I'm going to do with it now. I fear the iron will damage the oil finish?

Here Is a photo, unfortunately it doesn't really do the beauty of the grain justice but you get an idea.

Thanks again for your help, Kenny

[PMazz]

Congrats! Looks very nice. It seems Walnut is making a big comeback and that speaker looks great!

Pete

[chasw98]

I have just noticed one small area (about the size of a thumb nail) which has not bonded. Not sure what I'm going to do with it now. I fear the iron will damage the oil finish?

Kenny:
If that is your first time veneering, you have done a wonderful job. You should be proud. As far as mistakes, each project I do gets better, but I still know where every little ding or imperfection is. I bet even Pete knows about this. His are just hidden better. :B

As far as ironing after you have stained, I have found that you really have to watch your heat cause the stain will discolor. I had to reheat some sections I did on a pair of speakers and even used a bath towel to protect the veneer, but you can tell that the color changed for the darker. Good luck.

Chuck

[dlneubec]

Hey Pete,

What are your thoughts in regards to water based contact cement?

Also, do you ever seal mdf prior to applying contact cement and/or paint? If so, with what? Can you apply contact cement and veneer over primer on mdf?

Maybe I should explain the project. Below is a photo of the original and a also digital mock up of the finished project I'm going to be doing soon. The black areas and joints between the veneer will probably be truck bed liner. The veneer is Italian Rosewood 22.1mil paper backed. The veneer application will simply be a bunch of 4.5"x12.25" pieces placed individually between the joints. I'm looking for recommendations for the best process, since I'm applying both veneer and paint (truck bed liner). For example, might I prime the whole box with a coat or two of flat black to help seal the veneer, apply the contact cement and veneer, finish the veneer, tape off the veneer and spray on the truck bed liner as a last step?

On the veneer finish I would like to use and oil (ideally boiled linseed oil in a 1:1 with naptha or mieral spirits) for a couple coats and then a spitcoat finish using a wipe on poly in a 1:1 with naptha or MS.

What process would you use?

Thanks.

[warnerwh]

You guys should make this a sticky. I had the same problem when doing research, not being able to come to conclusions on how to do veneering.

Thanks for the detailed info and pictures.

[PMazz]

What are your thoughts in regards to water based contact cement?

I've used a few different kinds and had mixed results. Drying time is too long w/o adding heat so they never saw long term duty in the shop. The ambient temperature also seems critical for a good bond. Below 65-70 deg and they wouldn't bond at all. Application with a roller was a snap, as long as you didn't roll it out too thin. 2 coats seemed to always do the trick.

do you ever seal mdf prior to applying contact cement and/or paint? If so, with what? Can you apply contact cement and veneer over primer on mdf?

No reason to seal it as long as you apply enough CC to build up on surface. 2 coats may be required on edges. You can use CC over existing finishes as long as you scuff the surface, the bond is in good shape to the substrate, and you test a small area for any reactions to the CC.

I'm looking for recommendations for the best process, since I'm applying both veneer and paint (truck bed liner).

I've never worked with truck bed liner but if it's easy to control I think I'd do the veneer first. Actually, looking at the details of the speaker, the iron on method may be the easiest way to go. CC is tougher to control with those recesses and clean up would be a bitch. Go easy with the oil finish as it may react with the adhesive under the veneer. You don't need a lot of oil on veneer anyway. Poly over oil may be questionable unless the oil has a hardener. Why not just use urethane oil?

Pete

[dlneubec]

I've used a few different kinds and had mixed results. Drying time is too long w/o adding heat so they never saw long term duty in the shop. The ambient temperature also seems critical for a good bond. Below 65-70 deg and they wouldn't bond at all. Application with a roller was a snap, as long as you didn't roll it out too thin. 2 coats seemed to always do the trick.



No reason to seal it as long as you apply enough CC to build up on surface. 2 coats may be required on edges. You can use CC over existing finishes as long as you scuff the surface, the bond is in good shape to the substrate, and you test a small area for any reactions to the CC.



I've never worked with truck bed liner but if it's easy to control I think I'd do the veneer first. Actually, looking at the details of the speaker, the iron on method may be the easiest way to go. CC is tougher to control with those recesses and clean up would be a bitch. Go easy with the oil finish as it may react with the adhesive under the veneer. You don't need a lot of oil on veneer anyway. Poly over oil may be questionable unless the oil has a hardener. Why not just use urethane oil?

Pete

Thanks for the advice, Pete.

This box is made up of a bunch of 4.5" tall individual modular boxes that come apart, so I can finish all the boxes separately, if need be, and then re-assemble them. I was thinking I would probably end up having to do a lot of masking. I'll experiment with the both the iron on method and CC. Given the time of year and temperature here, I might just do it inside and try the water based CC. I could probably mask off recesses around each flat section before gluing on the veneer, which would allow me to use either glue type without any cleanup. I'll have to test the sequence. For example, I don't know how the truck bed liner would react to oil or poly if it was applied over it, or just slopped over on to it a bit or if I need to completly finish the veneer before doing the trim paint/truck bed liner (probably the latter).

I've never used Urethane oil and don't know anything about it. I assume it has a built in hardener or finish? Is it carried by the big box stores or local hardwares, or do I need to get it online? When you apply it do you cut it with naptha or mineral spirits? I would prefer to do a wipe on finish with multiple thin coats to avoid runs, etc.

[PMazz]

Try a cheap sponge roller cover with the water based CC. It'll roll on like paint but use 2 coats. You want to have some build before you stick it.

I believe Danish oil is a urethane oil. You can also try Watco, satin sheen. Either one can be wiped on straight from the can.

Pete