The Soup Speaker

[JonMarsh]

Tell you what, you pop for one to test, and I'll turn around the test data within 48 hours if I'm in town! I'll call in sick, I'll barricade the door- whatever it takes!

:dancenana:

[Dennis H]

Jon, when you do your midwoof shootout, it would be cool if you could get your hands on a fiberglass Vifa XG18. From Zaph's tests, it looks like a winner for a dedicated midrange above, say, 200Hz.

[JonMarsh]

Hmmmm, darn, they don't stock them in my local Walmart. Funny that Madisound PDF doesn't have plots.

Online at DST, the impedance curve and FR are posted, but the impedance curve has a glitch around 350 Hz (normally indicative of surround or cone resonances) and it sort of looks a little rough in the 1000-1500 Hz area, too. Any reason you're particularly attracted to this driver instead of, say, a Peerless 883? Price isn't that different. Just curious.

~Jon

[Dennis H]

Because, IMHO it has the best overall distortion performance (K2 through K5) above 100Hz of any driver Krutke tested, including the RS180. The total levels are low, the upper harmonics are well-behaved and it shows no problems well above the RS180's useable range. I saw those impedance bobbles too but they don't show on Krutke's impedance sweep (not sure how he measured) and there is no sign of distortion spikes at those frequencies.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/

edit: PS, I think Mark K has been fiddling with one and, while he wouldn't say too much, it sounded like he thought it was a promising mid for a 3-way.

[JonMarsh]

Well, that's fairly interseting- maybe we'll have to take a look at that.

Got a message back from Mad that they're out of stock in the US on the C90/T6, but for an extra $100 bucks they can do expedited (faster than 90 days) delivery from Europe.

Boy, they must have seen me coming, huh? I told them go ahead. Sheesssz, the shipping will cost more than the Vifa's you want me to test!

~Jon

[dawaro]

Jon did you try Zalytron? I think they also carry them. Just a thought, $100 for shipping? Ouch...

[JonMarsh]

Neither Zlaytron or Soniccraft carry the C90/T6. Madisound is the main importer for North America; usually, if they don't have it, no one does. It's sort of a specialty item- i wouldn't expect to find the diamond tweeters in stock, but I thought maybe a $460 midwoofer would be available. The extra shipping is for expedited (air) shipping from Europe.

[Marc Heijligers]

Hmm, just came over this site
Milstone

It seems to be a very detailed description of a Avalon clone project, from the research info, including info gathered about the Avalon speakers, and trough to the building phase.
This also includes link and history about a lot of other avalon clones, also the soup and Soup v2 (a filter using a C2 79, midrange and an Eton 8-472 woofer)
There is also A LOT of building pics...

It seems like he's now on his 4th version of the crossover. The current version is the one shown below.

Image not available

It seems like he's still not completely pleased, and is going for a 5th edition...

I just encountered this thread. I'm the builder of the Milestone speakers (and the co-builder of the cabinets), and published the site.

The series filter concept hardly works for the Accuton units. The units have an "interesting" response in their crossover region, and are therefore not easy to work with. In the context of the series filter it was fairly possible to make improvements, but the results overall were not what you can expect from such a high potential design (read, not close to an Avalon for instance).

There are some updates indeed, but I've had no time for updating the web site. I've tried 3 new parallel filters, one design ordered at Madisound (designed with LEAP, some major differences from what I measure myself, and not so succesful), one from a local designer, and one from Paul Vancluysen, which is the one I'm using now. I'll update the web site somewhere this month to present the backgrounds, but for a preview for the schematic you can have a look at a Dutch DIY forum:

http://www.htforum.nl/yabbse/index.php?topic=32492.msg546981#msg546981

The new filter is based on a Linkwitz-Riley response, with a lot of attention for the drivers to have the same phase at their crossover point, and some response equalization.

This is a major improvement over all previous filters. It is the first filter with fundament in the sound. The spatial image is incredibly large. But it still suffers from some timbre problems, and some resonances at the 1-2kHz region, and needs some more attention for the baffle step (no "warm" sound, a bit mid-frequency dominant). Furthermore the deep bass needs some dampening. I've built some electrical compensation for that in the filter, but it is not sufficient yet.

We're working on improvements to get warmth and timbre compensated, but it is not straightforward to find a good solution (not sacrificing other issues like efficiency, impedance etc.), though a lot of ideas are in the queue! Any suggestions or help is greatly appreciated ofcourse! :T

Marc

[ThomasW]

Hi!, and welcome to HT-Guide..... :T

I looked at the thread and think I figured out the problem...:wink:

Image not available

Too bad that forum's software is so hostile, none of the language translation services can open it in English.... :cry:

[JonMarsh]

Welcome to Mission Possible DIY, Marc!

Do you have measurement files of the individual drivers in the cabinet, in standard text format like CLIO or FRD/ZMA? (you know, three columns, Frequency, Amplitude, phase)

If so it might be fun to take a stab at a design for it, if you're interested.

Regards,

Jon

[Paul H]

Now Thomas, don't be stuck in a two-dimensional world

Paul

[JonMarsh]

I understand where Thomas is coming from- not so much the "3D" effect, but proximity and alignment of inductors, electroytic capacitors, etc.

OK, not everyone is as anal about crossover layout as I am... but then others, like my old friend Charles Hansen, are even more anal. So, I like to think I strike a moderate balance... :B

[ThomasW]

Oh wait!

It's that 'synergy' effect Klass from Odyssey is always jabbering about...... :B

[Marc Heijligers]

Hi all,

The crossover is a mess indeed... :agree: It is an experimental setup, with some known artifacts (I can easily measure crosstalk effects from the midrange to the breakup of the woofer). The reason for the mess is partly due to the WAF. I needed the Xover outside the cabinets for easy accesibility. We made some small cases which were sufficient to fit a first order series filter, but for a 4th order parallel crossover, the positioning of the components became inevitably bad. Other known issues are
- for large value capacitors I'm using bipolar elcos (by-passed with an MKP).
- Using plastic connectors to wire the speakers to the case.
- Using crocodile clips to make connections to difficult to reach spots (which have been measured, because most of these wires have a resistance of > 0.2 Ohms out of the box, and some even don't make a connection at all depending on their
- I've applied a transformer-based inductor instead of a air-core one (because I had this value in stock).

To question my integrity towards electronics, I've added another picture of the crossover. At least the stacking disappeared! :banana: In a new setup (soon) I'll make a new case, or just a wooden plate, enabling proper allignment. And if the main audible artifacts have disappeared (prominent midrange, baffle step), I start investing in some good components.

I have several measurements of the units in the enclosre, but I haven't deducted a good one yet. My room is quite echoic, and comparing to american standards the living rooms in Europe are small:

- I've made some near-field measurements, which are pretty OK below say 10kHz.
- I've made 1 meter measurements to be able to compare the relative phase of the units, but I suffer from a lot of reflections.
- Last week I've made some measurements in the garden at 1.21m, and it allows me to see the effect of the baffle step.
As I have no calibration facilities, all my measurements are relative measurements, and they might differ in magnitude due to microphone distance differences (I've compensated the volume for the near-field measurement on my Ayre amplifier).

For the woofer I've attached a picture of each measurement (1/6th oct filtered). As you can see, the 1m measurements have quite some peaks and dips. I was kind-of shocked from the outside measurements of the woofer at first, but when I started calculating the effects of the reflections, they seem to be in line with the peaks and dips observed in the measurement.

I'm still puzzling how to make one useful measurement out of this information that is suitable for filter design. I was thinking to take phase and amplitude from the near-field, and then transform the relative phase to an absolute phase using the 1m phase measurements (or the distance), and to introduce baffle step effects using the 1m magnitude measurements. Finally, the absolute magnitude can be determined by using the curves from Thiel/Accuton themselves. Any suggestion how to come to a good curve is welcome.

I would be very interested in a design study from your side! I can email any .frd/.zma file you think is useful, just drop me a PM - my e-mail address is referenced on my website www.hifivoice.com).

Marc

[ThomasW]

Okay I understand now, it's the random chaos theory of XO design. This is something way beyond my meager skills ....:wink:

Marc,

Jon's email addy is in his profile, you can just send him the file as an attachment.

[TacoD]

Marc, you had the opportunity to measure your loudspeakers @ Natlab in an anechoic chamber. So when is that to take place?

I like the cabinets these are very nicely made. But it didn't suprise me that Tony came up with this type of x-over. It seems like that series x-overs are his trademark :lol: . It is a good thing you are critical about the x-over, sometimes I wondered if I am the only one who thinks that Tony's products aren't always that great.

[Marc Heijligers]

Do you have measurement files of the individual drivers in the cabinet, in standard text format like CLIO or FRD/ZMA? (you know, three columns, Frequency, Amplitude, phase)

If so it might be fun to take a stab at a design for it, if you're interested.

I've sent them to you by e-mail. I'll put the profiles on my website as well, so these are accessible to all. That will happen after some minor restructering of the site.

Marc

[JonMarsh]

I have received your email- was working until late last night on a seminar due this week. (will be doing that the rest of the week, probably... )

Should be interseting...

[Marc Heijligers]

Marc, you had the opportunity to measure your loudspeakers @ Natlab in an anechoic chamber. So when is that to take place?

I guess not everybody knows where the natlab is about, so maybe a bit of explanation for the rest of the forum.

The Natlab is the "old" name for the Research Laboratories of Philips. I'm employed there as a researcher in the field of digital chip design (so not related to audio activities, more in the field of video, GSM and asynchronous design). A friend of mine, working in the acoustics group, has access to an anechoic chamber at the lab, which is very big (from my impression more than 15x10x8 m), and "completely" anechoic to 50Hz. He offered me to perform a measurement on the Milestones, but due to all kind of circumstances we didn't find a free slot yet.

It is a good thing you are critical about the x-over, sometimes I wondered if I am the only one who thinks that Tony's products aren't always that great.

Taste is personal, and Tony has always been a great help to me for any question I've had. Though I don't always agree with the design choices he makes , I do appreciate the enthousiasm conveyed in his message. This is nice about the DIY community. There is always a possibility to help and to learn from each other.

I'm very curious what Jon is going to make out of these curves!

Marc

[kvardas]

Poor Man's Avalon (aka Soup)

I was wondering if anyone has designed a 3-way crossover with lower cost drivers for the Soup/Avalon cabinet found here:

http://homepage.mac.com/marc.heijligers/audio/milestones/page30/page30.html

or

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Soup.html

It appears that many folks like the Dayton reference series drivers, such as the RS28A, RS255S, and a mid. PE carris the Dayton DCF05-8 2" dome mid.

A contact of mine came up with a simple 3-way for the Vifa classic line drivers, but I'm not sure if the Dayton drivers would be a better choice.

Thanks

Kris

[JonMarsh]

Marc has sent me newly made measurements of the "Milestone" drivers in cabinets- he beleives these are more accurate than previous measurements. Well, you know how important measurements are - GIGO rules supreme otherwise! Well, I'm going to make a pass at a crossover design, based on the Avalon voicing (what info I we have on that from publisehed reviews); will try to keep it simple.

Besides, if it looks pretty fair, imagine what you could do with the C79-6, the C13-6 on treble (newer cone and motor system), and, just to make it more interesting, how about RS315HF on bass? Something a little closer to an Eidelon, more LF output capability, but probably a skosh less efficient (about 2 dB, judging on published driver ratings, which I trust as much as the Mideast Peace Process).

Film at 11.

[Jed]

Marc has sent me newly made measurements of the "Milestone" drivers in cabinets- he beleives these are more accurate than previous measurements. Well, you know how important measurements are - GIGO rules supreme otherwise! Well, I'm going to make a pass at a crossover design, based on the Avalon voicing (what info I we have on that from publisehed reviews); will try to keep it simple.

Besides, if it looks pretty fair, imagine what you could do with the C79-6, the C13-6 on treble (newer cone and motor system), and, just to make it more interesting, how about RS315HF on bass? Something a little closer to an Eidelon, more LF output capability, but probably a skosh less efficient (about 2 dB, judging on published driver ratings, which I trust as much as the Mideast Peace Process).

Film at 11.

Jon,

Sounds interesting, though based on the distortion graph posted at madisound, the C13 looks no better than the C12. Did I miss something?

Also, I simulated a design that uses timmermann's measurements and a cauer elliptical for C44 and C12 with the RS225. X over points at around 900HZ and 4K. I'd be interested to know the differences in sound between the C79 and C44, although they seem very different in general purpose. One move might be to try the RS225, C79, C12 versus RS225 C44, C12.

Regards,
Jed

[JonMarsh]

Jon,
One move might be to try the RS225, C79, C12 versus RS225 C44, C12.

Regards,
Jed

Gawd, Jed, don't start talking ideas like that, or you'll have me trying to figure out a way to add the C79 to my M8ta cabinets without doing a total butcher job!

Biggest difference would be reasonable crossover points- I wouldn't push the C44 very low, of course, where as the C79 is used by Avalon in the Eidelon down to ~ 300-400 Hz. The Avalon crossover (based on published data I've seen) looks a skosh asymmetric; in theory Accuton rates the C79 for use down to 200 Hz. Wish I knew what the Xmax was on that little guy....

[Jed]

One other question about the C44. The plastic housing behind the flange looks like a soldering iron melted a hole through it and was repaired with some sort of white epoxy. It looks like it was a about a 3/8"-1/2" hole on the back of the midrange. How are the C44s constructed in terms of dampening in this housing, and will it effect the FR and specs much? Obviously I bought these units used. Supposed to be in excellent condition, but you all know how that can go.

Later,
Jed

[JonMarsh]

Another crossover for the Milestone

Marc Heijligers new data has been plugged into LspCAD, and I put my thinking cap on carefully, hopefully straight enough..

Marc's speakers are pretty much Klones of the Opus Ceramique- same drivers all aroundl



This crossover voicing is partly based on published reviews of the Eidelon, (which uses an Eton 11-581 11" woofer, not the 8" Accuton C220 woofer used in the Ceramique) privately measured data of an Eidelon, and a dash of my own common sense and inspired lunacy. Well, maybe not all that inspired.

Nominal crossover points in the Eidelon are 300 Hz and 2.5 kHz (some would call it 3 kHz, but with the amount of driver overlap, it's open to interpretation).

However, the crossovers are not truly symmetric on the low end; as is done by some practitioners (self included) the wooer uses an initially lower slope, partly as phase compensation for the acoustic offset, then steepening to an ultimate slope somewhat beyond the initial roll off point. Also, Avalon didn't really make much effort to deal with some of the diffraction boundary effects in the upper range of the 11-581. Also, the 11-581 doesn't quite have the Q of the upper break up peak that the C220 exhibits.

Additionally, the C79-6 is rolling off in the low end near the crossover point, so this has to be taken into account in realizing the target transfer function.

So, the target acoustical response was a slightly modified 2nd order all pass at about 275 Hz, and a 3rd order all pass at roughly 3 kHz. (shades of Natlie P). The cabinet diffraction complicates things a bit in the tweeter response, and that's part of why Avalon uses a pretty serious felt diffraction control structure built into the grille, and doesn't recommend playing the speakers without the grilles.

Here's the first pass on the crossover. Usually this is where I'd give my usual disclaimers about not having measured it yet, and the values aren't finalized. Well, I can't measure it myself, but maybe if Marc likes it he can build and measure and we can tweak as needed from there.



The low pass for the woofer is pretty straight forward, but as implemented it looks more like a 3rd order network, doesn't it? Well, the driver has rising response in this region on the baffle, so we need a bit extra filtering, and of course I wanted to put in a trap network, too, so L2 does double duty with C3 to implement the trap for the C220's breakup mode. C2 and R1 are just an inductive rise impedance stabilization network.


The midrange crossover is a bit more complicated (aren't they always?). Five components are just for the impedance zobel- R5, C8, and L6 compensate for the LF resonance rise, and C6 and R2 for the inductive rise. L6 can be an air core with skinny wire, and it's excess resistance subtracted from the value of R5.

R4 is for a little additional impedance stabilization, and if a resistor is conencted between it and C9, we'll have an LPad which might be needed if the midrange winds up needing to be padded down. According to LspCAD, it doesn't, but I don't completely trust that, I'll explain when we look at the transfer function plot.

C4 and L3, in combination with the driver roll off in the sealed enclosure, form the high pass network. L4, C7, and L5 realize the LP network for the midrange, and a certain amount of shelving in the upper portion of it's range.


The tweeter network looks like another bandpass nework, only because it is. C10, L7, and C11 form the high pass network, the transfer function looks a little odd because of teh acoutical response of the tweeter on the cabinet.

L9 and C12 form a roughly 2nd order Bessel low pass network, to filter supersonic components somewhat from exciting the tweeter resonance (tame as it is, ~ 6dB at 35 kHz). Avalon and VMPS are the only companies I know that have this kind of netwrork in most of their speakers. R6 and R7 are the level Lpad, and things came nicely together without any zobels on the tweeter, so I didn't put any in (collective gasp from the audience who knows my past crossover designs).


Here's the crossover transfer function, as modelled by LspCAD (that 6.20 version has a number of nice little tweaks - good going, Ingemar! :T )




Probably not what you expected.


Here's the predicted response, using Marc's new data:




Note that I did take some care about the phase and overlap characteristics in the crossover region, and reversing the midrange produces large nulls at both the woofer to midrange crossover and midrange to tweeter crossover. I took some care that the transistion regions were managed in good phase, considering driver physical locations, as are the Avalons. This LspCAD graph is assuming a seated position on axis with the midrange.

One thing I often see and that still puzzles me with relatively low frequency crossovers for a woofer is the interaction with the woofer and some peaking above the nominal bandpass level- you can see it in the predicted transfer function. I don't know how real that is, i.e., if LspCAD is correct, and it's one of those things I check carefully with the physical crosover. If LspCAD is not correct in predicting the network and driver response, we coudl be needing to reduce the midrange and tweeter level another couple of dB. I just don't know, unless Marc wants to fly the cabinets out here (way difficult), or I fly to the Netherlands (less difficult, still expensive).


Last, the predicted impedance curve- definitly not for SET amplifiers, will need a decent solid state amp. Where the impedance in the midbass is low, the phase shift is mostly fairly benign. My Aragons would be happy with this, but an HT receiver probably wouldn't.




Between six ohm drivers and crossover network interactions, it's pretty hard to keep the impedance much above 4 ohms. These speakers, like the Avalon's themselves, will like a high current solid state amp best.


On components, construction, and listening...

These are very high quality driver units, and to realize their performance will require similar construction components in the crossover.

For my own M8ta, I used NorthCreek AWG 12 coils in critical postions- both series coils on woofer, and the primary shunt coil on tweeter. Low DCR is quite important in those positions. Capacitors are all Solen metalized film, EXCEPT the series tweeter capacitors, which are half and half Solen and AudioCAP Theta Film and Foil. In this crossover L3 will be a bit of a bear, one might be tempted to use a ferrite core or laminated core inductor - DON'T!! Ultimate DCR is not that critical for the midrange high pass, but linearity at low frequencies is. The crossover should be assembled in an external box with good component spacing- look at my Arvo Pärt crossover boards, they can be a bit smaller, but don't crowd things. Actually, Avalon these days kind of cheese out in the crossover component build quality compared to when Charles Hansen was there. If one uses sand cast resistors, they should be the non-inductive type- 20 watt typical.










For wiring, either Cardas Hookup wire or Cardas Crosslink cable. The latter doesn't have to be twisted or bundled for runs to drivers. What I usually use is Crosslink to the mid and woofers, doubling up the conductors, (there's four in each cable, two per polarity), then a braided low inductance cable (like Kimber 4TC) for the tweeter. Using Cardas braided speaker wire would be prohibitively expensive, IMO. It's bad enough to have to use that to connect to the amplifiers!! :B


Last, to get the best out of an Avalon design speaker, they MUST be placed out from the boundaries; the Cardas setup guides are good, and what Avalon uses as a starting point. One will always have a lumpy bass and lower mids, and poor imaging if that isn't done. Look at the difference between these two response profiles, due to boundary loading of the floor, back wall, and adjacent side wall, and you'll understand.

Bad Positioning calculation Example:




Better Positioning calculation Example:





Marc has put a tremendous amount of effort and care into his speakers, and I hope that he gets them to realize their full potential someday soon! With the determination and effort he's shown with this endeavor, I'm sure it's just a question of time. :T

Best regards,

Jon

[Jed]

Jon,

This is great work as usual. I'm seriously thinking of picking up some C79s to compare to my C44s. Could you forward those measurements you got for the C79s and C12s to me? I want to see how they compare to my simulations using Timmermans's data.

As for an M8ta with C79- I think that one is destiny. :T I'll bet that the RS225s is the champ 300HZ and below versus the C220.

Jed

[JonMarsh]

I'll round those up and send them to you. Keep in mind they're made on the specific baffle (Avalon style).

This was actually quite a bit of fun to do- and has me thinking that if Madsound can't get the C90/T6, maybe I'll go with the C89-6. Or stacked C89. :E (dipole, remember, I need the Sd. On paper, 1 C89 on baffle I'll use should be good for up to 110 dB, but that's pushing the Xmax limit at 250 Hz)

I'm actually wondering if, considering the small price difference, and the Sd difference, the C89 might make more sense. It sounds like a project I should just turn over to Evil Twin, so I can focus on the dipole stuff.

One possibility is C79 with RS225, and C12 or similar tweeter (H1283 on a budget); another might be RS270 with C89 and C13. I have a pair of RS270 but haven't done any nonlinear distortion testing yet. Something else to do, but probably can't get to it this month. If I work on too many projects in parallel, I'll never get anwhere on any of them.

[cotdt]

Hmmmm, darn, they don't stock them in my local Walmart.

The Dayton Reference autosound drivers I've seen sold at the local Best Buy.

[TacoD]

Jon great work! (and a good read), finally somebody is doing a proper filter for those really nice cabinets. I think steep x-overs is the way to go for the c-12 / c-79.

[JonMarsh]

This was some fun to do. The funny thing is that, for me, these aren't steep filters!

It's got me somewhat interested in looking closer at the C79 and C89, especially if I have trouble getting the C90-T5s in. Madisound did quote up to 90 days delivery on the latter, and it's starting to look like it will be that long.

~Jo

[Marc Heijligers]

Hi,

Here's the first pass on the crossover. Usually this is where I'd give my usual disclaimers about not having measured it yet, and the values aren't finalized. Well, I can't measure it myself, but maybe if Marc likes it he can build and measure and we can tweak as needed from there.

This is great stuff!!! :T

I'll certainly build this crossover, and let you know about the results! The coming two weeks I have quite some business trips, so building might take a while (unfortenately)! :huh:

If LspCAD is not correct in predicting the network and driver response, we coudl be needing to reduce the midrange and tweeter level another couple of dB. I just don't know, unless Marc wants to fly the cabinets out here (way difficult), or I fly to the Netherlands (less difficult, still expensive).

My experience is that the simulation tools are pretty correct. The only point is that the units have been measured in an anechoic room to get a good measurement in the crossover region of mid and woofer. In this range in my own "echoic" room, I suffer from reflections. Glueing near-field and far-field measurements makes it difficult to predict on the phase response and baffle step effect. So in this case, the anechoic measurements help me out.

New measurements will be performed in my echoic room, so this will results in some deviations.

If you want to visit us, you're welcome! There are quite some budget flights inbetween! :welcome:

These are very high quality driver units, and to realize their performance will require similar construction components in the crossover.

In the final setup I will take a lot of care regarding components. In Europe people have good experience with Mundorf.: Mundorf website or with Intertechnik: Intertechnik website. Tony Gee gave a nice capacitor overview. I'm using Kimber 4PR cable internally.

Last, to get the best out of an Avalon design speaker, they MUST be placed out from the boundaries

This is indeed my own observation as well. For serious listening, I move the speakers from the wall. I've glued felt parts underneath the speakers, so that they are easy to move due for decorative/WAF reasons.

Marc has put a tremendous amount of effort and care into his speakers, and I hope that he gets them to realize their full potential someday soon! With the determination and effort he's shown with this endeavor, I'm sure it's just a question of time.

Especially with great help and new insights from the DIY community!!! :T

Which brings me to my second point. After the measurements, I also got the proposal for a new filter, based on the new curves. As all filters up to now had a lack of fundamental energy, we we're very curious whether the new measurements and filters based on them would solve our problem. Because the proposed filter was very simple, and we had most components on stock, we gave it a try last week.

For the filter and measurements, see the attached pictures. The slopes of the filter are quite moderate, and much care has been taken to allign the phase response. Measurements show some difference with the calculated response, but this is mainly due to the different measurements conditions, where the peak at 60Hz and the dip at 190Hz are reflections (green versus black curve). Treble is a bit higher due to the measurement place, which is 50cm in front of the tweeter.

The result? Very successful! The fundamental region has FINALLY (after a year of trials) a lot of energy! QED!!! :lol:

Voices, cello, guitar etc. now have body, Spatial imaging is larger. Pinpointing is very sharp. Treble integrates very well with mid. There is also a good sense for "silence between the notes", and "air around the instruments" (a bit vaguely expressed, but I have no better definitions).

I will start on your filter when I'm back from my business trips. Thanks again, and see you later!

Marc

[TacoD]

If you want to visit us, you're welcome! There are quite some budget flights inbetween! :welcome:

I think it's more approprate that you rent a plane for Jon :W.

[off-topic]
I am always wondering why people clone loudspeakers, the advantage of DIY is to make loudspeakers to your specific taste and I do not think manufacturers can do that. Also in my opinion you will never get a 1:1 copy. Has it something to do with the "status" such speakers bring along? Also what is the DIY part if you are copying? Sorry for being off-topic.
[/off-topic]

[Jed]

I think it's more approprate that you rent a plane for Jon :W.

[off-topic]
I am always wondering why people clone loudspeakers, the advantage of DIY is to make loudspeakers to your specific taste and I do not think manufacturers can do that. Also in my opinion you will never get a 1:1 copy. Has it something to do with the "status" such speakers bring along? Also what is the DIY part if you are copying? Sorry for being off-topic.
[/off-topic]

Good points Taco, I do believe the advantage of cloning a design such as the Avalon is to get the acoustic benefit of the angled baffle etc. Plus it looks nice. I'm not sure if getting a 1:1 copy is the top priority. Think about, like art, it is hard to be original when the great masters have already "done it." Think of the Avalon as a statue of David, and we feable every day DIYers one day dream of creating something of that magnitude in order to truly understand it.

Jed

[JonMarsh]

Well, I'm guilty in that regards, too, but I usually look at it as an opportunity to gain insights into the thinking of certain manufacturers and their choices. If I can get to a point where I really understand some of the trade-offs in the design, and the the way it all works together, then I feel like I've made progress. OTOH, there are many products I tend to have no interest in "Kloning" as ThomasW and I put it, becuase the starting point or goals just aren't sympatico. (I've never had the urge to clone a Proac 2.5, for example.... )

[Marc Heijligers]

I am always wondering why people clone loudspeakers, the advantage of DIY is to make loudspeakers to your specific taste and I do not think manufacturers can do that. Also in my opinion you will never get a 1:1 copy. Has it something to do with the "status" such speakers bring along? Also what is the DIY part if you are copying? Sorry for being off-topic.

My goal is not to get a 1:1 copy of the Avalon speaker, as also explained on my web (and even more clearly on the new site that is in creation). I respect the intellectual property of Avalon, and just like Jon, I'm only curious about their designs as far as design decisions go.

Even before I've ever seen or heard about Avalon, I already heard some speaker designs with the ceramic units of Thiel (with the old C^2 77 and C^2 11), and I was always intrigued by them. When the C^2 220-T6 came out, it enabled a "full-ceramic" speaker, which I believed was a nice concept (also from a decoration point of view).

Basically, the only thing I borrowed from Avalon is the shape of the cabinet. The edges in their cabinet have been inspired on an article of H. Olson from 1969 (see picture below). The addition of Avalon is to apply the same edge to the bottom part of the cabinet as well, making the speaker look less colossal, and to tilt the baffle, which is not uncommon in many designs.

I've also heard the Avalon Opus Ceramique in the past (also recently ), and these are nice speakers. The knowledge I get is that good results can be accomplished with this setup.

Even if I would have access to the Avalon filters (I don't), I probably wouldn't copy them (only learn from them). It wouldn't make sense as a DIY indeed, and it wouldn't be fair to Avalon to reveal the IP of their designs in forums like this, as it is their income. The construction of the Milestone cabinets and their filters are very different. What remains in the similarity in appearance, and coincidentally the same choice in drivers.

Marc

[Marc Heijligers]

I've just made a major update to the website:

http://www.hifivoice.com/audio/milestones/index.html

Have fun!
Marc

[Jed]

Marc,

That has to be the best speaker building website I've ever seen. Inspiring to say the least! :T

Jed

[TacoD]

Very nice website, but it looks like its the only thing of this project you did yourself, or am I missing the Y of DIY for this project. It looks like almost everything is done by others:

-initial design: by Avalon,
-cabinets: by Gydotron,
-x-over filter: by Paul Vancluysen/ Jon Marsh/ Okke Ouweltjes,
-measurements: by Okke Ouweltjes / Rob Dingen,

So who do you want to impress?

[posix]

you jealous or something?

[Marc Heijligers]

So who do you want to impress?

Nobody. That is not my goal. Would it be yours?

Very nice website, but it looks like its the only thing of this project you did yourself, or am I missing the Y of DIY for this project.

I've created my website with Rapidweaver using Mac OS-X on an Apple computer, and used a Rapidweaver template, drinking many cups of tea made by my girlfriend... So the only thing I eventually did was typing text and pasting pictures... :yesnod:

More seriously. For me the fun of DIY is in the possibility of being able to share knowledge in an open atmosphere. DIY for me means more than "do it yourself", it also means "do it yourselves", without discussions (though recognition!) about ownership. This is the reason of the existence of forums like this one, and the reason of existence of my website. My website should be seen as a diary, and the lack of an explicit personalized end result at this stage in time doesn't mean it isn't a DIY result.

My contribution to all parts of the Milestones design is pro-active. A major part of the website present my own ideas, trade-offs, filter designs, measurements and observations. Nevertheless, I don't suffer from the "not-invented-here-syndrom", and see the benefits of learning from literature and ideas of other people. I guess Avalon, Gydotron, Paul, Okke, Rob, John etc. have a similar list of references and sources that defines their current state of knowledge and designs.

I see cooperation as a strong point instead as a weakness. All people associated to the Milestones project seem to share their DIY experience with great fun, and tell me they mutually learn from the project. I'm impressed and proud that so many people have contributed to the project so far. From that perspective, my personal opinion says this is a highly succesful DIY project.

Marc

[ThomasW]

Some people seem a bit hung up about giving credit where credit is due regarding loudspeaker designs. For those people here's a history lesson.....

This should probably be subtitled 'it's not called cloning/copying if you created the original concept'.....

In the mid to late 1970's there was a speaker designer and builder named William Keith Kennedy (Bill to his friends). He lived in the foothills west of Denver, Colorado. One of the places Bill's designs were sold was a high-end audio store in Boulder, Colorado. I worked at that high-end store along side a young weird ex-rock & roll musician from east Texas (just for fun let's call him 'Jon').

As one would imagine, a high-end audio store in university towns attracts it's far share of groupies. A groupie of our particular store was a very young undergrad studying physics. His name was and is Charlie Hansen (note his friends call him Charlie, not Charles).

Now back to Bill Kennedy. He was a kindly man with a eye for raw talent. So he decided to take my co-worker, (Jon what's his name) under his wing, and mentor him in the manly art and science of loudspeaker design.

Among other things, Bill and Jon created a rather interesting test bed for evaluating speakers. It was a pair of 350 lb black monolithic multi-way loudspeakers. The monoliths had extremely thick enclosures. Including massively thick, highly angular front baffles, faceted for diffraction control. (anything about this sound familiar?)

After Bill's untimely death, Jon moved the monoliths to his home and continued the evolution of the design concept embracing the fundamentals learned from Bill Kennedy.

In the mid 1980's Jon decided that marriage was in his future. Unfortunately the wife to be wasn't in love with the black monoliths, so they were given to who? Yes, Charlie Hansen.

For a time Charlie worked as a electronics tech at a company where Jon was the chief engineer. And during that time Charlie learned a fair amount about speaker design from Jon.

Charlie took the major design concepts from the black monoliths and added some interesting ideas of his own. All these concepts fused when Charlie and a group of backers formed Avalon Acoustics. While at Avalon, Charlie created the Ascent and Eclipse, the designs from which all other Avalon speakers evolved.

(longtime readers of Stereophile will remember an interview with Charlie where he spoke about the black monoliths, and their impact on his future designs. Unfortunately here was a bit of brain fade regarding their true origin) To his credit Charlie has publicly acknowledged Jon as the "grandfather" of the Avalon designs. Jon's not so sure the term grandfather fits his self image...

So when looking at the current Avalon designs and seeing that picture of Neil Patel on the Avalon website, people might consider what others contributed to the designs...... :wink:

[posix]

I was just about to post something like this myself but then considered some might start nitpicking on that too. especially the bit about patel.

physics is physics and I don't think anyone can copyright that. because we could easilly say that osiris and later sentinel are clones of wilsons. why? because of the two box design. yeah right.

and as stephen hawking, one of - if not the greatest physicist (einstein is so overrated) once said "history is full of discoveries where one person found it and the wrong person got credit for it" or something to that effect wich is so true

so who cares?! does it sound right? it does? then good on ya!

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, and besides, box speakers are so 20th Century!

OTOH, whether someone thinks they look like nuns or not, I do like the what Neil has done with the Industrial design of the Isis, as well as the more recent Avalon's like the Eidelon and Opus.

Some others I don't care for much, the Sentinel is imposing in an unfortunate way, and is probably out performed by the Isis in purity, due to the driver limitations. The Ascendent is an unfortunate departure from sticking to pistonic mode only for the midwoofers; they're running those 7" Eton's up too high. But then, it is a "budget" speaker (by their standards).

The other thing that bugs me about Neil is the liberties he's willing to take with reality in the rather turgid prose describing the "technology behind many of Avalon models - to say it's highly refined obfuscating audiophile speak would be too strong a compliment.

RANT-OFF/

OK, now that I got that out of my system, What do you want to build today?

[Jed]

OK, now that I got that out of my system, What do you want to build today?

Maybe an M8ta 3-way C12, C79, RS225 "Jon" clone. :T Seriously. I've got measurements for the RS225s I own, and the speaker workshop files from the Opus clone. I might do some splicing of Xover topologies unless Jon beats me to it. I'm also interested in maybe some sort of mini (Orion sized) dipole speaker. I've never heard one before and they say once you go dipole you never go back to box speakers.

[ColoradoTom]

Yeah, and besides, box speakers are so 20th Century!

OTOH, whether someone thinks they look like nuns or not, I do like the what Neil has done with the Industrial design of the Isis, as well as the more recent Avalon's like the Eidelon and Opus.

Some others I don't care for much, the Sentinel is imposing in an unfortunate way, and is probably out performed by the Isis in purity, due to the driver limitations. The Ascendent is an unfortunate departure from sticking to pistonic mode only for the midwoofers; they're running those 7" Eton's up too high. But then, it is a "budget" speaker (by their standards).

The other thing that bugs me about Neil is the liberties he's willing to take with reality in the rather turgid prose describing the "technology behind many of Avalon models - to say it's highly refined obfuscating audiophile speak would be too strong a compliment.

RANT-OFF/

OK, now that I got that out of my system, What do you want to build today?

Hey!!! Having Nun-like speakers may not be such a bad idea... I can't tell you how many times my wife has walked into my audio room and said "Oh my GOD". If I had the ability to clone the Isis that would probably be my next project!!