1080p projectors

[chrisg]

All right. I have pretty much decided that my soon-to-be home theater room will feature one of the newer 1080p projectors. I decided this after visiting a showroom with a number of different DLP projectors, mainly runco. While i did not see the frequently mentioned rainbows, the pixelly effect was very noticeable and bothersome to me even from the 2nd row. I like to sit fairly close. I have read that
the jvc h2k and sony qualia have high enough resolution and pixel fill ratios to show an image which is more "film-like" or "crt-like", with no screen-door effect.
I realize that I will probably be taking a bit of a bath buying such an expensive new technology whose price will probably plummet.

My screen will be 8', with the first row of seats about 9' or so away.

A local dealer (definitive audio in bellevue wa) has said that they have done qualia installs and could probably arrange a viewing for me. they said that they did not like the previous jvc D-ila projectors, hinting at quality control problems,but that they expected the new expensive model would have higher build quality.

has anyone been in a situation to directly compare these projectors to each other. what I can come up with so far is:

the price is about the same.

jvc pluses: outboard scaler. easy installation and mounting. projector is a small box with only one cable running to it from the scaler.
bulb replacement is relatively inexpensive. could probably install and set up by myself.
jvc minuses: 1/2 or less as bright as sony. don't know any local place to see one.

sony pluses: brighter. local dealer has installed them. been out for longer. can see a demo.

sony minuses: heavy, extreme bulb replacement cost. heavy power consumption and heat.


unknown: who has better color. who has better contrast and blacks.


any help appreciated, espec from anyone who has seen both projectors.

[JonMarsh]

You've summed up the major differences pretty well- and William Phellps is selling his G90 to get one of the JVC's. He's a fanatic about color accuracy, and believes the JVC sets the new standard.

It probably comes down to what your view priorities and circumstances are. If you have complete light control in your room, there's a lot of reasons to go with the JVC.

The Sony is much bigger and heavier, and bulb cost is pretty high, though the first replacement is covered under warranty - on the upside, besides having very good CR for a "bulb" projector, with the iris opened it's a real light cannon, so for a larger screen, or a room with less light control, (think superbowl party in a room with carefully designed backlighting to minimize impact on screen, the Qualia 004 might be the better choice. It sure is purty looking....

[Dean McManis]

I have both a G1000 and G15 D-ILA projector (calibrated by William Phelps) and the G15 looks great. There is no visible pixelization with my closest seating 8' away from a 180" 16:9 screen.

I haven't yet had the opportunity to see any of the new native 1080P projectors yet, but I'm sure that they both have an eye-popping picture with a HD input. :D

Unless you have bags of money to blow, I would be hard-pressed to justify getting one of these 1080P-native projectors now.

Both the regular D-ILA and HD2+/DC3 DLP projectors are very impressive with DVDs, and of course HD material. With an 8' screen even viewed from only 9' away it may be tough to tell the picture quality apart. At least not for 3X-4X+ the price.

When 1080P native projectors drop under $12K, and HD DVDs come out (1-3 years) then this market will get interesting. Until then it's the pervue of the obsenely rich. ;)

-Dean.

[Brandon B]

I'm sure you've read all the comments at AVS too, but even the Qualia owners over there pretty much agree, the Sony is only brighter if you allow its contrast to drop in the high brightness mode, that in low brightness/high contrast mode, the lumens end up being about the same.

As Jon says, though, that extra bright option is nice, when you're watching something where you want it and CR is a secondary issue.

I haven't seen the Qualia (keep intending to when in Tokyo at the Ginza showroom), but in spite of my lumen addiction I'd take a HD2K in an instant. We had it into my work for a pretty extended demo (my review should be here about 4-6 months ago).

Speaking of LCOS, everyone see that Canon has announced a 1400x1050 2500 lumen 1000:1 DILA machine? It's on the Europe Canon site. Not yet here, price 4000 euros. Spiffy.

BB

[JonMarsh]

Speaking of LCOS, everyone see that Canon has announced a 1400x1050 2500 lumen 1000:1 DILA machine? It's on the Europe Canon site. Not yet here, price 4000 euros. Spiffy.

BB


My boss was asking me to recommend a new projector for our marketing group; too bad that $4000 Euro's is probably a little outside the price parameters... it would be great to have something with more than XGA at 4:3.

Dean, I sort of understand where you're coming from, but I don't know if I could live now with a sub 1080P digital projector now- my problem is that my setup is now with the screen on the long wall- so my screen width to distance ratio is a little problematic for something like a wide XGA setup anymore- with corrected vision of 20/15, the pixel structure is too visible. But then I wish I had something higher than 1280X800 in my laptop, too. It's not as annoying for data, though. Problem is, I need a different room!

I like having the relatively wide screen view angle, though, and the 9PG+ is really working nicel at 1080i after this last pass on setup- I think I've finally got the hang of it- did a better job on mechanical centering of rasters and tube aiming, aligned the yokes carefully, and found something I'd overlooked in the convergence menus for keystone correction. This time, I hardly touched the point alignment. I think I'm ready to put the front lens shroud back on.

This is an evil hobby, though... I'm so happy with the 9PG+ that now I'm starting to agonize about what I'll do if/when this projector eventually wears out or has a serious breakdown someday- I'm still well under 1000 hours on the tubes, and with the smaller screen and conservative drive settings (70 contrast) should go quite a while, but what then? So I find out from Curt Palme that he's got a 10PG he's going to rebuild later this fall; two new OEM tubes, and one rebuild... I had my eye on a PG XTRA, which would be brighter and a little more resolution than my PG9+, but this would be 9" tubes all around... for the price of a middlin' digital.... way under $10K. Got some serious thinking to do the next couple of months....


~Jon

[Chris D]

yeah, I get Curt's E-mail listing that he sends out every so often, and it always gets me to thinkin: "hmmmm... that's tempting"...

[Dean McManis]

Jon,

I had a Sony 1292Q CRT projector, and on a 120" screen it was not visibly any clearer, sharper, or more detailed with 1080i material than My G15 is. And in fact the edge focus is much better with the D-ILA. The 1292Q had 9" CRTs and was the forerunner of the G90. My guess was that the actual resolvable resolution was around 1500 X 1200, compared to the D-ILA's 1365 X 1024.

Once the consumer priced (sub-$10K) 1080p native digital projectors come out (along with HD-DVDs) then I'll make the jump. But until then, scaled DVDs and DSS 1080i look very good to me today. :T

[JonMarsh]

One of the things I've heard abot DILA is that it produces a smoother pixel sturcture than either DLP or LCD; I've only seen a JVC once, and didn't have the time or opportunity to sit close enough to really evaluate that.

Since you've had your JVC's calibrated by Phelps, I'm sure you're getting the best performance out of them that can be had.

What I like about my current setup, besides the contrast level, color fidelity and level of detail, is the smoothness and lack of visible scan lines or pixel artifacts, and lack of posterization that occurs with many digital displays in low light level scenes. I don't doubt that we'e pretty much there with the better digital displays available now, once they're setup right (excepting maybe ultimate black level), but at the prices a good used CRT setup goes for, it's hard to compete. To choose between a BENQ DLP and a 10PG at the same cost is something of a no brainer to me- but then they'res lots of things I'm happy and willing to deal with that many folks, and their spouses, wouldn't go along with, just to suit my preference in picture quality.

It's a great world we live in that there are so many choices available! :B

~Jon

[LEVESQUE]

I own a JVC D-ILA HX1U calibrated by Phelps and will soon exchange it for a JVC HD2K that I will send also to William. John... It's strange that you are calling one of the best G90 and CRTs calibrator a "fanatic"... He's a "fanatic" in term of overall picture quality, not only of "color uniformity" like you said. He just happens to know what PQ is, and he have seen ALOT of projectors, and probably calibrated all the best digitals and CRTs out there.

D-ILAs, compared to CRTs, alos have an advantage in sharpness, color uniformity, calibration stability and brightness. Until the HD2K and the Qualia, the CR and black level was a big problem... but it's not anymore...

I quote William Phelps here: "After spending 3 intensive weeks working on and watching movies with the HD2K, I found it hard to go back to CRT. Yes, there was a small difference in black level, but there was also a big difference in detail and color fidelity. Once you've seen it, you won't have to ask which was which..."

That's why William is now selling his G90 on Videogon...

For the original poster of this thread. At this price, you should try to see both the Sony and the JVC to make a choice. I have a totally dedicated, light-controlled room, so the lumens output of the HD2K is not a problem in my situation. For me, it will be a "plug-and-play" situation. I'm not the kind of guy to work hours or days on my projector. I want to enjoy it, not work on it. That's why I prefer digital projectors. And because I'm planning on sending it to William Phelps, the JVC will be easier to ship.

Because you are looking at the Qualia or the HD2K, I don't think you are "on a budget", so digitals are the best choice for you then, just like me. Your room will also make a big difference in your choice between both projectors.

Have fun.

[Brandon B]

I don't think Jon was intending anything other than positive characterization of William by his use of the term, nor limiting it to color specifically.

1 year turnaround on your HX1, Levesque? You might consider waiting a little on the HD2k unless your perfectly OK with the 500 lumens it's at now.

BB

[Brandon B]

One of the things I've heard abot DILA is that it produces a smoother pixel sturcture than either DLP or LCD; I've only seen a JVC once, and didn't have the time or opportunity to sit close enough to really evaluate that.
...
What I like about my current setup, besides the contrast level, color fidelity and level of detail, is the smoothness and lack of visible scan lines or pixel artifacts, and lack of posterization that occurs with many digital displays in low light level scenes. :B

~Jon

No comparison on the smoothness front between DILA and DLP. Something like the HD2k would unquestionably satisfy you (IMO). On the 10' wide image we had, not the tiniest hint of pixel structure once I was farther away than 3'. Only the just barely discernable hint of one from 1' to 3'. Below 1', you could see the pixels, not because there was a grid, but just because they wee different colored rectangles. On a uniform color field, the distance may well have dropped to 8" or so.

The posterization I am not sure would entirely disappear compared to CRT, since by definition CRT has less of this (at least in the horizontal axis) even if it is inherent to the media.

But I do know, no question what type my next PJ will be.

BB

[JonMarsh]

I don't think Jon was intending anything other than positive characterization of William by his use of the term, nor limiting it to color specifically.

BB


Yeah, what he said...

Generally, it's the fanatics which really advance the state of the art- another one on the video side is Joe Kane, of course; on the audio side, one comes to mind that's an old friend, who's done some fairly fanatical engineering on both video sources and audio amplification- Charles Hansen. Besides Ayre, he also founded Avalon Acoustics, now run by Neil Patel, also something of a "fanatic". ;)

[George Bellefontaine]

Joe Kane... oh, yeah, that guy really opened my eyes to video improvements many, many years ago.

[BobbyDS]

Hi Chris - see my post on the JVC

[Holywd]

Can someone please let me know how to contact William Phelps to get a projector optimized?

[Shane Martin]

You'll find William Phelps over at AVS. Just look in any of the threads with JVC projectors mentioned.