Dayton RS WMTW Center & TMWW Mains

[zest]

looks great digital desire, is that oak ? What stain and finish did you use

[MrCabinetry]

Real bummer after listening to these to take them apart again, but the results were worth it!
Surprised even me!

Peter,

That looks absolutely fanastic :T

[digital desire]

Thanks Phil. Had a great cabinet to start with!
Zest, it is 10 mil oak paper-backed, applied with the hot PVA (tightbond - worked GREAT) stained with minwax golden pecan. I am going with the gloss poly wipe on, as it seems the most goof-proof.
The one small pita with having a professional build the MDF part: Cutting the veneer after you glue it on the cabinet, to open up the rabbit for the drivers. There is a good looking technique (I don't have the link handy) where you use the exact same bit that the rabbit was cut with to cut veneer. I did not have the same bit as Phil.

My work around seemed fairly good though. We cut out the majority of the veneer with the flush trim bit, leaving the veneer cut to the size of the speaker cutout. I then uncovered one hole that I used to mount the driver, and then mounted it *without tightening it down tight* using the rest of the screws. The first time I started to snap the veneer, not good. Then score it real well, using a fresh xacto blade for each driver. Then tighten the screws a bit, and the ring will drop right down with the driver, a 'die cut' like when I used to build model airplanes out of balsa.

[kgveteran]

These are a great match http://www.markk.claub.net/RS225_RS28A_updates/dayton_reference_rs225.htm

I just chopped the depth down to 8".The RS225 shows no sign of stress and the RS28a is a match to the center and mains, or three centers as I use :B .

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=23335 Follow along for the finished pics.the XO's are about $100.00 each, the drivers about $100.00 .Can't beat it with a big DIY stick.

I had to use the flush mount plastic terminal plates.I wanted to use the brushed aluminum posts and plate, but ended up the less expensive in stead.

[wkhanna]

Hey Peter! Those look V nice, Great Job!

[MrCabinetry]

Thanks Phil. Had a great cabinet to start with!
Zest, it is 10 mil oak paper-backed, applied with the hot PVA (tightbond - worked GREAT) stained with minwax golden pecan. I am going with the gloss poly wipe on, as it seems the most goof-proof.
The one small pita with having a professional build the MDF part: Cutting the veneer after you glue it on the cabinet, to open up the rabbit for the drivers. There is a good looking technique (I don't have the link handy) where you use the exact same bit that the rabbit was cut with to cut veneer. I did not have the same bit as Phil.

My work around seemed fairly good though. We cut out the majority of the veneer with the flush trim bit, leaving the veneer cut to the size of the speaker cutout. I then uncovered one hole that I used to mount the driver, and then mounted it *without tightening it down tight* using the rest of the screws. The first time I started to snap the veneer, not good. Then score it real well, using a fresh xacto blade for each driver. Then tighten the screws a bit, and the ring will drop right down with the driver, a 'die cut' like when I used to build model airplanes out of balsa.

Peter,

Well, I did express my concerns regarding " The Trick " and the manner which it would have to be done given the rabbeting bits and their sizes to cut the recessed part after the veneer was applied.

The next time someone wants one of these cabinets unfinished and the person is going to apply the veneer, I'm going to make " cutting templates " to the size's of the mounting diameter cutouts and recess diameter cutout's of the speakers, that way they can just drop the template in the mounting cutout and use a razor knife to trim cut the veneer to the recess speaker diameter.

That way, a router with rabbeting bits will not be required to make those cutouts.

[Brian Bunge]

Actually, I find it much easier to use a laminate trimmer along with the appropriate bit to trim the veneer around the recesses. As long as your recess is 1/8" deep or deeper this works great.

Check out the lower of the two bits listed here. It can even be used in a router if necessary, but I find a laminate trimmer much easier to handle.

http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/sr.cgi?1175018883_20456+2

[digital desire]

We had a similar bit on hand, but the pilot part of it was too long. Looks like that is a great solution.
I would think dremel would have a bit that would work for it, but searching their site came up nada.

A couple more coats of wipe on and it will time for the "socks" pic! :P

[MrCabinetry]

D@mn, I totally forgot about those solid carbide bits.

They would work fine for that type of routing around the recess edge, but, as already pointed out, the part that would ride against the edge is a tad bit long.

But, there pretty cheap bits, just grind it down till it fits the depth and route away.

[Brian Bunge]

I use one all the time for tweeter recesses. I adjust the depth so that the cutting edge us just barely below the base of the trimmer. Sometimes the guide portion of the bit does hit the bottom of the recess slightly but I've never had it where it would not cut the veneer at all. You just have to be very careful.

For anything deeper I like to use a 1/8" spiral downcut flush trim bit.

[chasw98]

Does anyone know what the crossover point is from the woofer to the midrange in the Dennis Murphy design of the WWMT?

And.............. has anyone heard of anybody using an active crossover to biamp or triamp these speakers? Thanks.

Chuck

[Dennis Murphy]

[QUOTE=chasw98]Does anyone know what the crossover point is from the woofer to the midrange in the Dennis Murphy design of the WWMT?

It's about 400 Hz. I frankly doubt there would be much benefit in actively crossing these drivers. First, my design uses carefully aligned 2nd order acoustic slopes, which I personally believe provide a more coherent sound. If you use an active Xover with, say, 4th order electrical slopes or even 2nd order, you won't end up with the right acoustic slopes. It might sound quite good, but probably not better than the passive. Of course, there's always an "on the other hand..." in audio. If you cross the woofer to the mid, you will gain greater control over the bass level and be better able to avoid boominess from room modes. I guess my bottom line is that an active mid-tweeter cross is not worth it, but the bass-mid is a closer call.

[chasw98]

It's about 400 Hz. I frankly doubt there would be much benefit in actively crossing these drivers. First, my design uses carefully aligned 2nd order acoustic slopes, which I personally believe provide a more coherent sound. If you use an active Xover with, say, 4th order electrical slopes or even 2nd order, you won't end up with the right acoustic slopes. It might sound quite good, but probably not better than the passive. Of course, there's always an "on the other hand..." in audio. If you cross the woofer to the mid, you will gain greater control over the bass level and be better able to avoid boominess from room modes. I guess my bottom line is that an active mid-tweeter cross is not worth it, but the bass-mid is a closer call.

Thanks Dennis. I am contemplating doing a bass-mid active crossover. I have the amplifiers and I got me one of them there digital crossovers to play with, so I was just thinking about trying it out to see what the results would be. It will be fairly easy to bypass the low crossover and hook directly to the drivers and then just go directly to the mid-hi section. Thanks for the help. I appreciate it.

Chuck

PS -When I get around to doing it (in my spare time!), I will post some results, good or bad.

[cjd]

You can't split the crossover that way and have it work though... you'd need a different passive on the mid-tweeter end if you go active on the bottom.

C

[chasw98]

You can't split the crossover that way and have it work though... you'd need a different passive on the mid-tweeter end if you go active on the bottom.

C

Please explain. Inquiring minds want to know?

[cjd]

model it, makes it bloody obvious. :)

[chasw98]

model it, makes it bloody obvious. :)

I will! :B That is what I am trying to learn. Thanks, Chris.

[Dennis Murphy]

I will! :B That is what I am trying to learn. Thanks, Chris.

Hi
The main problem is that the woofer will still be contributing some energy in the region of the mid-tweet cross, and this will affect the component values. This is particularly true for My and Chris' crossover, both of which use comparatively gentle 2nd order acoustic roll-offs for the woofer. If you then switch out the passive woofer-mid crossover and switch in an electronic crossover with a different acoustic slope for the woofer (it will also introduce a different slope for the mid high pass), you really should reoptimize. Having futzed around with my design in lspCAD tonight, I betcha you could do what you have in mind without serious problems. But won't these things be used with a sub? I don't see any point in crossing actively at the woofer-mid crossover point, and then crossing again to the sub. The sub cross alone should give you the control over the bass level that I think is the main advantage of active crossovers. You'll just end up with a whole bunch of cables in amps.

[chasw98]

Hi
The main problem is that the woofer will still be contributing some energy in the region of the mid-tweet cross, and this will affect the component values. This is particularly true for My and Chris' crossover, both of which use comparatively gentle 2nd order acoustic roll-offs for the woofer. If you then switch out the passive woofer-mid crossover and switch in an electronic crossover with a different acoustic slope for the woofer (it will also introduce a different slope for the mid high pass), you really should reoptimize. Having futzed around with my design in lspCAD tonight, I betcha you could do what you have in mind without serious problems. But won't these things be used with a sub? I don't see any point in crossing actively at the woofer-mid crossover point, and then crossing again to the sub. The sub cross alone should give you the control over the bass level that I think is the main advantage of active crossovers. You'll just end up with a whole bunch of cables in amps.

Thanks Dennis. I appreciate your answer. Yes, I am using a sub with them. I am more just playing around to see what the changes will be like. I have not ever believed that I would improve on a system designed to work together. At some point I will select some drivers and mount them in baffles and attempt to do some measuring just to see what happens. Right now, this is just having fun with a hobby that I enjoy. I have convinced myself that I can build most anything that I find in these forums. Big deal, I can follow directions and they come out looking ok and sounding great (mostly because of the designer and not my abilities). Right now crossovers intrigue me (they are the secret sauce as someone else said) and I am just having fun analyzing the different iterations out there. So I am asking questions. Once again, thanks for taking the time to answer. :T

Chuck

[cjd]

Dennis, I was thinking beyond just putting an active crossover on the woofer, to trying to integrate one to do both sides, which I've seen people inquire about as well. That is to say, they want to remove half the normal midrange crossover. ;) THAT is what goes all to hell.

Just going active on the woofers and keeping the full mid crossover is far less problematic...

C

[digital desire]

DONE!
Once again thanks to all who contributed to this great thread.
And I really like those magnetic grill sets PE sells, you can pull the grill off and not see any "grill zits".

Now if this were your set up, would you finish the center to match the towers or leave it like it is? I was afraid that it may look like a "TV sandwich" if I veneered it in oak like the tv stand.

[zest]

digital desire, looks great , where did you get those feet for your speakers i cant find them anywhere

[digital desire]

Weird. I bought them from PE, but they are not there anymore.?
IIRC, they were a "special deal", I just ordered them up when I bought everything else.

[wkhanna]

Wow DD!
I really like your grill design!
Everything looks great!

I think having a flat black baffle with the wood grain cabinet on your center might work well. A flat black baffle won't be visually distracting when watching movies, but having matching wood grain on the rest of the cabinet will allow it to integrate with your overall system.

[chasw98]

Those look great DD. And you remembered the all important 'sock' for the picture. Great job! :T

Chuck

[digital desire]

Thanks guys!

[Dennis Murphy]

[QUOTE=cjd]Dennis, I was thinking beyond just putting an active crossover on the woofer, to trying to integrate one to do both sides, which I've seen people inquire about as well. That is to say, they want to remove half the normal midrange crossover. ;) THAT is what goes all to hell.

Hi I wasn't sure which approach was being considered, so I tinkered with both. If you lose the entire front end of the mid crossover, including the L-pad, it still looks like an active cross could work, although not as well as if you started from scratch. But I think the main point is that there's no reason to complicate things like that if you're going to use a sub anyhow. I think the theoretical advantages of active crossovers are oversold. All the stuff about superior cone control just doesn't seem to translate into anything audible, assuming the passive crossover is done properly. I ran a pair of Dynaudio Gemini's with a 4th order electrical crossover (because I didn't like the stock 1st order passive), and it really couldn't match the sound of a simple passive I worked out once I got up to speed with measurement design software. (These comments only apply to using a pre-packaged active crossover. If you design your own to achieve specific acoustic slopes, then the game is reversed. That kind of active cross is the future--but some costs have to come down first.)

[digital desire]

Chuck, the old engineer schooling in me makes me want to ask "What problem are you trying to solve?"
Just curious. I can find no faults, but perhaps may not be as critical either.

The more I listen, the more I fall in love.... :D

[FlashJim]

stained with minwax golden pecan.

I knew I had seen that before. I used that on my entertainment center and I'm about to use it on my speakers. At least now I know it'll look good. ;)

[JonP]

[QUOTE=MrCabinetry]Peter,

Well, I did express my concerns regarding " The Trick " and the manner which it would have to be done given the rabbeting bits and their sizes to cut the recessed part after the veneer was applied.

The next time someone wants one of these cabinets unfinished and the person is going to apply the veneer, I'm going to make " cutting templates " to the size's of the mounting diameter cutouts and recess diameter cutout's of the speakers, that way they can just drop the template in the mounting cutout and use a razor knife to trim cut the veneer to the recess speaker diameter.

That way, a router with rabbeting bits will not be required to make those cutouts.

Hmmmm... I'm about to go down this route, in that veneer was requested after I did some basic boxes in Baltic birch. "The Trick" sounds like a possible option. I use the Jasper Jig based approach of "cut rabbet depth hole, then cut thru hole all the way thru baffle". So no Rev Wayne reusing the rabbet bit method for me...

OTOH, there are those non-bearing flush trim bits.. the ones that look like a dowel pin with a notch. I've wondered if they might be used to flush the veneer with the rabbet hole edge. Usually there's a rounded end, and that part would have to be shorter than the rabbet depth... or the the cutting edge won't be able to cut the veneer, or even trace the hole properly. I'd think a woofer rabbet should be no problem, but the tweeters are fairly shallow.

I've never used one, or even seen one in person, anyone try these or have one to measure?

[Jim Holtz]

Hmmmm... I'm about to go down this route, in that veneer was requested after I did some basic boxes in Baltic birch. "The Trick" sounds like a possible option. I use the Jasper Jig based approach of "cut rabbet depth hole, then cut thru hole all the way thru baffle". So no Rev Wayne reusing the rabbet bit method for me...

OTOH, there are those non-bearing flush trim bits.. the ones that look like a dowel pin with a notch. I've wondered if they might be used to flush the veneer with the rabbet hole edge. Usually there's a rounded end, and that part would have to be shorter than the rabbet depth... or the the cutting edge won't be able to cut the veneer, or even trace the hole properly. I'd think a woofer rabbet should be no problem, but the tweeters are fairly shallow.

I've never used one, or even seen one in person, anyone try these or have one to measure?

I use the same Whiteside bit that Brian linked to above ( http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/sr.cgi?1175018883_20456+2 ) with the tip ground down some to get the depth I needed. They work great and they're very inexpensive as router bits go. I've done this many times with no issues.

Jim

[chasw98]

Hmmmm... I'm about to go down this route, in that veneer was requested after I did some basic boxes in Baltic birch. "The Trick" sounds like a possible option. I use the Jasper Jig based approach of "cut rabbet depth hole, then cut thru hole all the way thru baffle". So no Rev Wayne reusing the rabbet bit method for me...

OTOH, there are those non-bearing flush trim bits.. the ones that look like a dowel pin with a notch. I've wondered if they might be used to flush the veneer with the rabbet hole edge. Usually there's a rounded end, and that part would have to be shorter than the rabbet depth... or the the cutting edge won't be able to cut the veneer, or even trace the hole properly. I'd think a woofer rabbet should be no problem, but the tweeters are fairly shallow.

I've never used one, or even seen one in person, anyone try these or have one to measure?

Jim Holtz taught me the 'grind the end off the bit' trick, but I took it a step further and bought 4 or 5 of them and had one of the guys in our machine shop do a round over on the bottom of the bit so it won't scar the wood if it comes in contact with it. And I had him make them at short and long depths for tweeters and midrange depths.

Chuck

[chasw98]

Chuck, the old engineer schooling in me makes me want to ask "What problem are you trying to solve?"
Just curious. I can find no faults, but perhaps may not be as critical either.

The more I listen, the more I fall in love.... :D

Actually I am not trying to improve or solve a problem. I was able to get an inexpensive (good deal) Behringer DCX2496 digital crossover and wanted to try my hand at emulating a crossover. Since I have the speakers built and I built them with seperate binding posts for LF and Mid-Hi connections, it would be very easy to bypass the LF section and use the xover with a seperate amp to see what happens. It is curiousity more than anything else. I am also setting up a measurement/emulation system where I can 'build' digital crossovers and listen to them, so to speak. Just the 'old engineer' in me experimenting. :B

Chuck

[Sefferdog]

I was able to dig through the posts and find that the low to mid crosses around 400, could someone please tell me where the mid to tweet crossover point is? Thank you very much!

[digital desire]

I would think it depends on version. I have seen 1800hz bandied about though.

[Jim Holtz]

I would think it depends on version. I have seen 1800hz bandied about though.

Hi Peter,

Dennis told me his Seas version crosses at 2100 Hz. which is a little higher than most of the other designs. He also uses a 2nd order crossover. Dennis spent a lot of time trying different slopes and crossover points and felt this sounded the best. I haven't heard the other variations but my ears agree with his results. :T

Jim

[Dennis Murphy]

It's actually a little higher than that. More like 2400. But that's still pretty low for the mid-tweet cross in a 3-way.




Hi Peter,

Dennis told me his Seas version crosses at 2100 Hz. which is a little higher than most of the other designs. He also uses a 2nd order crossover. Dennis spent a lot of time trying different slopes and crossover points and felt this sounded the best. I haven't heard the other variations but my ears agree with his results. :T

Jim

[Sefferdog]

It's actually a little higher than that. More like 2400. But that's still pretty low for the mid-tweet cross in a 3-way.

Dennis, Thank you very much for the info.

[Jim Holtz]

It's actually a little higher than that. More like 2400. But that's still pretty low for the mid-tweet cross in a 3-way.

Thanks Dennis. Yes, the memory goes first. :D

Jim

[cjd]

It's also pretty high for the RS150... ;)

[Dennis Murphy]

It's also pretty high for the RS150... ;)

Only if you're doing a 2nd order cross. But that would be CRAZY talk.

[FlashJim]

I have to put my center in an entertainment center above my TV and was wondering if I'd have any major issues.

[cjd]

Only if you're doing a 2nd order cross. But that would be CRAZY talk.

:lol:

I've been pondering some additional variants of my MTM and may yet experiment. ;)

[Sefferdog]

I built the Dennis Murphy RS 3-way tower design and while they sound very good they also sound very bright. I have lowered the parallel resistor in the tweeter l-pad from a ten to an eight and also put a 25 ohm resistor across the mid leads. This has helped substantially but still seems a bit bright. Could the fact that I used an NP electrolytic in place of the input series 100uf cap in the mid circuit cause this?

I have checked the crossovers several times and am fairly confident they are correct. I have verified component values, except for the inductors as I do not have a meter that will read inductance. I have the polarity reversed on the mids per design, checked a couple of times as well.

I have just finished constructing a Wallin jig and received an ECM8000 and pre-amp from PE; as soon as I figure out how to get it all to work with Speaker Workshop I will post some FR graphs showing both the original crossover and then my tamed version.

My frame of reference regarding the brightness is a comparison with Wayne J's Veritas, Jon M's Modula MT, Roman B's Microbes. The RS 3-way is substantially brighter than all of them. With all of the rave reviews they have received on this site I am very curious to find out where I screwed up! I am hoping the measurement software helps me out.

Are there any suggestions on what to look for until I can figure out this measuring setup (that may take awhile!)?

[Dennis H]

Could the fact that I used an NP electrolytic in place of the input series 100uf cap in the mid circuit cause this? I'm sure it's not helping any. Dennis is kinda pushing the envelope on how high he plays the mid and how shallow the rolloff is so a nasty cap could give you some nasty mid-treble. JonMarsh recommends air-core coils and poly caps as the 'minimum' quality for all crossover components.

[Sefferdog]

I'm sure it's not helping any. Dennis is kinda pushing the envelope on how high he plays the mid and how shallow the rolloff is so a nasty cap could give you some nasty mid-treble.

Kind of what I was thinking. I went ahead and ordered some Dayton metalized polypropylene capacitors. I also noticed in a previous post that Dennis absolutely hates the Eagle resistors, so I ordered the Dayton non-inductives to replace them with. In this same order are parts to construct an inductance meter. That way I can verify my coils as well.

Thank you for the response.

[Dennis Murphy]

Kind of what I was thinking. I went ahead and ordered some Dayton metalized polypropylene capacitors. I also noticed in a previous post that Dennis absolutely hates the Eagle resistors, so I ordered the Dayton non-inductives to replace them with. In this same order are parts to construct an inductance meter. That way I can verify my coils as well.
Hi If my version sounds bright with the NP caps, it's either because you just don't like the way I voiced the design, or there is a problem elsewhere. I'm not about to blame something that basic on the choice of caps. For what it's worth, I have compared my version with several other designs, some commercial, that have not been considered bright, and the tweeter level is either similar to or somewhat lower than the other speakers. My design will produce a more forward sound in the upper midrange than many, of not most, other speakers due to the 2nd order slopes. But that really shouldn't translate as bright. As for Eagle resistors, I have no objection to their sound, or to the sound of any other resistors. I just hate the fragile leads and the color value codes. The Dayton non-inductive have much sturdier leads, and you can actually read what the value is.

[geoffstgermaine]

Alright, I got a start on my center channel. It's going to take a while to glue up all the layers for the curved sides.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c244/geoffstgermaine/center%20channel/DSC02684.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c244/geoffstgermaine/center%20channel/DSC02683.jpg

[Brian Bunge]

Wow! You guys make things hard, don't you! :) If I ever do anything with curved sides I think I'll be picking up some band clamps!

[chasw98]

You missed a spot! :)

[geoffstgermaine]

I'm laminating it up from 1/8" MDF so need very even pressure or else the surface gets pretty wavy. I'll probably get something straight and stiff to lay across the top and bottom for the next layers so that I can use less clamps.

[Dennis Murphy]

Oh Lord. What have Curt and I done?

[geoffstgermaine]

Well, it's all laminated up. Time to move on to the finishing touches.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c244/geoffstgermaine/center%20channel/DSC02691.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c244/geoffstgermaine/center%20channel/DSC02696.jpg

I also just wanted to say thanks for all the great info in the thread from everyone. I'm really excited to get this thing playing. The center it's replacing is pretty junky.

[riceaterslc]

parts express is great. i ordered the parts for WWMT last week and they arrived today. packaging was a little scary but everything came through unscathed. great service! let the build begin:

http://www.smokedtires.com/dubr/cwong/Speaker%20Parts.jpg

[Satansfx]

Ok, im not sure if this was asked before..... but is there a way to meter the crossovers to see if I hooked everything up correctly?? I've built the center channel enclosure and have 2/3 x-overs completed.... speakers will be here tomorrow, and I just want to make sure before I blow something up :E

Im talking about curt's design BTW

PS..... Virgin poster here.... even though im a stalker to these boards and have been reading them for 6-8 months now

[Curt C]

No meter measurment will guarantee a crossover is connected correctly. You might find the article I wrote here useful for double checking your work:

http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/nodal_analysis.html

Holler if you have any questions...

C

[Satansfx]

Yep, I think I F'd up big time then.....

Highs
http://users.adelphia.net/~satansfx/pics/highfront.JPG
http://users.adelphia.net/~satansfx/pics/highback.JPG

Mids
http://users.adelphia.net/~satansfx/pics/midfront.JPG
http://users.adelphia.net/~satansfx/pics/midback.JPG

I'll try and label all of this from the back during intermission from the Buffalo/NY game :)

[Satansfx]

Now with label goodness!!!

http://users.adelphia.net/~satansfx/pics/midback1.JPG

How does it look? am I ok? or did I F up big time? I got lost on the L3 and C5 part.... I know the highs are ok..... and I know the lows will be ok aswell..... I can read those schems, but this mid..... pain in the A! I need a refresher course :(

I'm just hoping this is right... and hope someone can point me in the right direction..... TY for the help

[BigJim_inFLA]

After a quick look you seem to have a 0.50mH inductor on your tweeter xover, but the schematic calls for a 0.25mH.

[Satansfx]

your right..... I just now noticed that. And somehow the one I have glued and soldered on my tweet xover is an extra.. Well, I guess I can't do this without at least 1 mistake

Time to look for that de-solder bulb.... and a lighter to get the glue off. Thanks BigJim

[BigJim_inFLA]

It looks like you have a few other problems. On the schematic, the line labelled source is your positive line. The other is your ground or negative. The positive next to the driver in the schematic lets you know to wire that driver in reverse polarity, usually this is to compensate for a phase shift in the xover. So for example, the + for the tweet should come into the xover and first go to C1, then to L1 and C2, then to R1, then to the NEGATIVE terminal of the driver. Your mid xover is wired the same way.

Also it looks like you wired 2 resistors together in the mid xover. A 25 and a 10 to get the 35 called for, however you need to wire them in series for the resistance to add up and it looks like you wired them in parallel, which actually gives you a value of 17.5 ohms.

Also (going by your labels) the red wire labelled + out should connect to the resistor R3 where C6 connects to R3. You have effectively put the resistor in the + line instead of across the + and - lines. (+ line by your labels, it really should be the - line, see above)

[Sefferdog]

I have a set of cabinets only for the DM tower design (cutouts for the Seas tweets) of this project with 2" front baffles for free if someone would like to pick them up in central Florida. Bare MDF. Contact me off the forum if you have a need/want for these and we can discuss it further.

[crackyflipside]

With the BSC and the tweeter offset on the towers, to get three identical towers to look aesthetically pleasing, could the tweeters all be offset in the same direction for the L/C/R?

[Dennis Murphy]

With the BSC and the tweeter offset on the towers, to get three identical towers to look aesthetically pleasing, could the tweeters all be offset in the same direction for the L/C/R?

The theory of tweeter offsets really only works in pairs, and the theory itself may not translate into anything audible. If you're going to use 3 of these things across the same plane, you obviously can't get mirror-images between all the speakers, even if you offset the tweets. So I think you can choose one offset direction and stick with it.

[kgveteran]

No meter measurment will guarantee a crossover is connected correctly. You might find the article I wrote here useful for double checking your work:

http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/nodal_analysis.html

Holler if you have any questions...

C

Curt,
Your XO rocks! Good to hear from you.


KG

[kgveteran]

parts express is great. i ordered the parts for WWMT last week and they arrived today. packaging was a little scary but everything came through unscathed. great service! let the build begin:

http://www.smokedtires.com/dubr/cwong/Speaker%20Parts.jpg


Great to see your project is picking up speed.

KG

[atm98]

I finished the sealed design about 6 weeks ago and finally got around to taking pictures. This entire process was a great learning experience. These things sound incredible. I have invited a few friends over to listen, many of whom have spent a lot more on their systems, and each was impressed.
I started running these through my HK AVR320 receiver and something was missing. I then output the signals to an external amp: Chiro C500 and an Acurus 100. What an improvement. I now want to replace the Receiver, but am waiting for more options with HDMI switching to become available. I digress…
I was watching “The Departed” a couple weeks ago and there is a scene with audio going through a nice new McIntosh system. I actually said to myself “That sounds incredible; I wish I had a system like that.” After I realized the reality of my thoughts, I was delighted with the mere price I had paid for this sound quality.
I could spend another hour talking about the improvements these speakers have brought me, but instead I will present my concerns.
1. These things image well, but placement is crucial. I have seen and heard in the response curve change when speakers were placed at different locations and angles. Also, my room layout requires the left speaker to be close to the wall. This is giving me some reflection problems that I need to address in the near future.
2. The extreme highs seem a little rolled off. I Believe I am hearing everything, I just don’t feel the sparkle that other systems have. This could be an upstream issue or another placement issue, but I want to know if anyone else has head similar. I am using the Seas 27TDFC which has natural a roll off on the high end. Am I actually hearing this? Note: these replaced a very bright, and harsh, set of Infinity SL50, so my listening reference could be off.
3. I never liked bass. Turns out what I has listening to was sloppy and uncontrolled. The bass on these things are tight and clear. However, they leave me wanting more. I was not planning to use a sub. But after hearing these, a sub is inevitable.

Thanks again to the guys who did the real work in designing these.
Austin

http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/57/557/8/69/62/2196869620098933787KJuZPD_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2196869620098933787KJuZPD)

[wkhanna]

parts express is great. i ordered the parts for WWMT last week and they arrived today. packaging was a little scary but everything came through unscathed. great service! let the build begin:


Hey Riceaterslc, great to see you starting a build!
I recently finished a set of Nat P's, and I know you are going to be awestruck when you hear your new speakers for the first time!

Good luck with your build!

[kgveteran]

What are your thoughts on the breakin period for the RS drivers.I think it took a while for them to breakin.

KG

[Dennis Murphy]

Thanks for reporting your impressions. (This is my crossover, right? I don't think Curt has one with the Seas.) I must say that my greatest concern with this system was that people would find the bass a little heavy and the overall presentation a little bright or foward. It's actually voiced flat, but the use of 2nd order slopes all around does tend to make for an "up front" perspective (which I happen to like). The bass issue probably just reflects my prototype cabinets, which used 1/2" mdf. I'm glad to see you found the bass clean, and aren't bothered by any brightness issues. Quite the opposite, I guess. The Seas tweet does have a slight roll-off above 15 kHz. I'm not sure my tired old ears could pick up on that, but it's possible yours can. Overall, however, the Seas is much flatter than the RS tweet above 12 k. But you can always make slight alterations to the tweeter L-pad if you want.

[atm98]

Thanks for reporting your impressions. (This is my crossover, right? I don't think Curt has one with the Seas.) I must say that my greatest concern with this system was that people would find the bass a little heavy and the overall presentation a little bright or foward. It's actually voiced flat, but the use of 2nd order slopes all around does tend to make for an "up front" perspective (which I happen to like). The bass issue probably just reflects my prototype cabinets, which used 1/2" mdf. I'm glad to see you found the bass clean, and aren't bothered by any brightness issues. Quite the opposite, I guess. The Seas tweet does have a slight roll-off above 15 kHz. I'm not sure my tired old ears could pick up on that, but it's possible yours can. Overall, however, the Seas is much flatter than the RS tweet above 12 k. But you can always make slight alterations to the tweeter L-pad if you want.

Yes it is your crossover Dennis. And I do agree it is a little forward. I chose the design after analyzing my listening style and spending weeks reading the forum posts. I am very happy with the bass. However, I don't have the listening experience more serious audiophiles have. After all I listen 90% theatre. Wish these would go deeper. I will be posting some help requests for an IB sub. I am not inclined to make any design changes yet. I want to do some equipment upgrades first. Thanks again. -Austin

[crackyflipside]

Hey Dennis Murphy or any other speaker building guys, would having 3 identical TMWW towers with the tweeter offset or 3 identical WMTW centers behind an AT screen sound better?

[riceaterslc]

i am having one heck of a time finding someone to build or someone i trust to build the enclosures for the WWMT design.

realistically speaking, would the only tools required to build them myself be a decent table saw, router, drill, and clamps? i would not say i have extensive woodworking experience, but i have build more than a few (probably around 50) car audio sub enclosures. i have all these parts screaming to get built just sitting on my floor.. :M

[ThomasW]

For more than a decade the only tools I had for building speakers were, clamps, a hand-held electric drill, a jigsaw, and a 7" hand-held circular saw with a metal straight-edge for long cuts.

[BigJim_inFLA]

I've built a number of the designs on this board in a one bedroom apartment using just a circular saw, router, and drill. It can be done.

[riceaterslc]

outstanding, thats what i want to hear :T

[royceb]

i am having one heck of a time finding someone to build or someone i trust to build the enclosures for the WWMT design.

realistically speaking, would the only tools required to build them myself be a decent table saw, router, drill, and clamps? i would not say i have extensive woodworking experience, but i have build more than a few (probably around 50) car audio sub enclosures. i have all these parts screaming to get built just sitting on my floor.. :M

I'm a total woodworking newbie and did just fine with a circular saw, straight edge, plunge router, circle jig, and 6 clamps. I had so much fun that I definitely want to start looking at table saws and do non-speaker projects.

[riceaterslc]

below are pics of the crossover layout, just wanted to make sure i didnt make any mistakes before i start soldering away. thanks in advance.

edit: is there any orientation for the components or can they be wired in any direction? how much leeway do i have with the inductors? it is bad if i start to unwind them for extra wire, correct? ignore my stupidity :)

High Pass:
http://www.smokedtires.com/dubr/cwong/High%20XOver.jpg

Mid Pass:
http://www.smokedtires.com/dubr/cwong/Mid%20XOver.jpg

[crackyflipside]

Hey Dennis Murphy or any other speaker building guys, would having 3 identical TMWW towers with the tweeter offset or 3 identical WMTW centers behind an AT screen sound better?

Anybody?

[Dennis Murphy]

Anybody?

Hmmm I didn't reply because I wasn't sure. The towers will have better bass, but with a sub I'm not sure that's an issue. Hmmmm. I dunno. sorry. I would have to set them up and see how the different radiation patterns fit together.

[Dennis Murphy]

I posted a response to this, but now it's gone. Maybe I offended the hall monitor. It didn't say much. Mostly that you should probably stand one of the two last series inductors in the mid crossover on end to avoid any chance of interactions. I can't tell exactly how far apart they are, but there's no point in taking any chances. Just flip one on its side without rotating it.

[limulus]

My first post here. I've ordered the drivers for the MTWW to take advantage of the free shipping. I have to decide on the xover version now. I've built a set of MBOW1s and still have them upstairs in my family room. So, I'm very familiar with what Dennis can do. Decisions, decisions.

[Dennis Murphy]

My first post here. I've ordered the drivers for the MTWW to take advantage of the free shipping. I have to decide on the xover version now. I've built a set of MBOW1s and still have them upstairs in my family room. So, I'm very familiar with what Dennis can do. Decisions, decisions.


Wish I could help, but I haven't heard Curt's design. I really need to reassemble mine and hook it up to my emulator to see how the two crossovers compare. Right now, all I can say is that my version sounds very much like the MB0W1, but with much more extended bass and slightly less upper treble dispersion.

[Satansfx]

riceaterslc,

Who's X-over design is that? I just built Curt's and I have some other picture of it I could share

[riceaterslc]

riceaterslc,

Who's X-over design is that? I just built Curt's and I have some other picture of it I could share


is DM's crossover. i havent looked at Curt's so i do not know what the differences between the two are...

[ThomasW]

I posted a response to this, but now it's gone. Maybe I offended the hall monitor. It didn't say much. Since Jon's away, the only person able to edit or delete posts is me, and none of your posts have been touched.

Sometimes people hit the 'Preview Post' button then surf to other areas thinking they hit the 'Submit Reply'

[kgveteran]

The biggest problem I had was NOT breaking in these drivers.I think that a finished project should do about three days of pink noise to break it in.

Once broken in the tweeter sounded smooth , the mids were perfect.

[limulus]

All my drivers arrived today! Now I have two more questions:
1. I bought Sonic Barrier from PE to line the cabinets. I haven't seen any mention of stuffing with poly. Is that recommended?

2. I've seen lots of people using Dayton caps and resistors. I was going to order Solen and Mills, but with this design, I wonder if there is any advantage to the extra dollars?

[kano32]

All my drivers arrived today! Now I have two more questions:
1. I bought Sonic Barrier from PE to line the cabinets. I haven't seen any mention of stuffing with poly. Is that recommended?

2. I've seen lots of people using Dayton caps and resistors. I was going to order Solen and Mills, but with this design, I wonder if there is any advantage to the extra dollars?


1. I lined my Natalie P's with foam and added a bit of stuffing, I eventually took the stuffing out and left the foam. I liked the sound better without the stuffing. Play around with it until you get the response you are looking for.

2. Go with daytons stuff. I've made several pairs of Natalie P's with solen and then with dayton (depending on what was in stock) and did not notice anything except that they both sounded great. Go with the datyon parts.

[kgveteran]

I stuffed mine with pink owens corning.

I can't believe how big the center looks with my new grills installed.For some reason they got much bigger.

[limulus]

Thanks guys. I will definitely save some $$ if I switch everything from Solen back to Dayton.

[Dennis Murphy]

[QUOTE=limulus]All my drivers arrived today! Now I have two more questions:
1. I bought Sonic Barrier from PE to line the cabinets. I haven't seen any mention of stuffing with poly. Is that recommended?

1) Are you using the ported or the sealed version? If ported, don't stuff. If sealed, stuff moderately. 2) Hey Hey--it's Dayton all the way. Bank the difference and enjoy the music.

[limulus]

I haven't built a xover in a couple of years, but I've looked at Curt's and Dennis' xovers and both have the polarity reversed on the mids and Curt's diagram shows it reversed on the tweeter. You're using Dennis' design. Did you reverse the polarity on the mids?

below are pics of the crossover layout, just wanted to make sure i didnt make any mistakes before i start soldering away. thanks in advance.

edit: is there any orientation for the components or can they be wired in any direction? how much leeway do i have with the inductors? it is bad if i start to unwind them for extra wire, correct? ignore my stupidity :)

High Pass:
http://www.smokedtires.com/dubr/cwong/High%20XOver.jpg

Mid Pass:
http://www.smokedtires.com/dubr/cwong/Mid%20XOver.jpg

[limulus]

Mine are for 2-channel and I'm going sealed. I'll stuff it.

[QUOTE=limulus]All my drivers arrived today! Now I have two more questions:
1. I bought Sonic Barrier from PE to line the cabinets. I haven't seen any mention of stuffing with poly. Is that recommended?

1) Are you using the ported or the sealed version? If ported, don't stuff. If sealed, stuff moderately. 2) Hey Hey--it's Dayton all the way. Bank the difference and enjoy the music.

[limulus]

If that center is anything like the Audax center, I know what you mean. I still use the Audax system in our HT. All the front speakers are behind the screenwall and a transparent screen. When I go back there, I'm always surprised about the size of the center channel. Mine sits on a stand and is slightly angled. Total weight is around 100lbs!

I stuffed mine with pink owens corning.

I can't believe how big the center looks with my new grills installed.For some reason they got much bigger.

[riceaterslc]

I haven't built a xover in a couple of years, but I've looked at Curt's and Dennis' xovers and both have the polarity reversed on the mids and Curt's diagram shows it reversed on the tweeter. You're using Dennis' design. Did you reverse the polarity on the mids?

i'm a little confused as to what you are asking. i made the layout according to the crossover schematic for Dennis' design. I did not make any changes to the illustration. are you saying that i should reverse the polarity compared to the schematic? thanks..

[looneybomber]

The biggest problem I had was NOT breaking in these drivers.I think that a finished project should do about three days of pink noise to break it in.

Once broken in the tweeter sounded smooth , the mids were perfect.
Didn't you add a BBC dip? Have you since done away with that?

[bvanfleet]

if it would be possible to get the bass down to 30hz in a sealed enclosure and still be smaller than the ported enclosure. I like the sealed bass sound but for 4 - 8" drivers I feel they are a little weak. I ran test tone from 300hz down to 18hz and my RS 3 ways roll off 45 and 50hz. I built the DM version with seas tweeter. The highs and mids in my opinion are about perfect when playing them next to a pair of Boston accoustics VR40's but the bass is not where I expected it to be. I was hoping the bass would be more comparable to an old pair of infinity Kappa's I used to have. Just wondering.

[Jim Holtz]

if it would be possible to get the bass down to 30hz in a sealed enclosure and still be smaller than the ported enclosure. I like the sealed bass sound but for 4 - 8" drivers I feel they are a little weak. I ran test tone from 300hz down to 18hz and my RS 3 ways roll off 45 and 50hz. I built the DM version with seas tweeter. The highs and mids in my opinion are about perfect when playing them next to a pair of Boston accoustics VR40's but the bass is not where I expected it to be. I was hoping the bass would be more comparable to an old pair of infinity Kappa's I used to have. Just wondering.

Well, in a word, no. There's no way that I know of to lower the F3 of 50 Hz. the RS225's have in a sealed configuration. There are few woofers that get much below that sealed unless it's designed as a sub. IMHO, that is your solution if you want stronger bass below 40 Hz. Build a sub to go with it.

IMHO, you can compare the RS 3-ways to much, much better speakers than Bostons or Infinity's. No disrespect meant for either brand but they are mid-fi in comparison. Find some Theils, B&W etc. to compare to. They'll give speakers in the $3K - $4K range a run for the money. My opinion of course.

Oh, I should add, if you can stand the larger cabinet, the RS225's have splendid bass in a ported enclosure. F3 of around 32 Hz. Very nice! :T

HTH

Jim

[zest]

yahh whoo its finally done, First of all I would like thank everyone who contributed to this thread, expecially those who were brave enough to post their mistakes ( I learned from those the most ).
Well this was definitely a challenging project for me but well worth it in the end.
My advice: 1) buy a good router - I purchased a Dewalt, mine came with three different bases fixed ,plunge and D handle, worked very well.
2) when using the hot glue method do a sample first , on my first piece I ended up using too much glue and the veneer wrinkled , I had a terrible time getting the wrinkles out
3) Yes read the entire thread lots of info here, something to be learned on almost every page
4) When gluing foam to inside of speaker I found goop worked the best, or hot glue worked as well.

Listening impressions :
At first I was happy just to hear noise coming from the speaker, but then I realized that it sounded a little bright and edgy, so either the speakers needed a little break in time or I made a mistake. So I let them run for 10 hours or so and sat down for another listen. Big difference this time the highs had definitely calmed down and the bass seemed to open up . Very happy so far , I am without a doubt hearing things I never heard before with my old speakers .
Thank you Dennis Murphy for the fantastic crossover and thank you dewaro for the great easy to follow plans

Now all I need to do is build a wall shelf to hold that monster of a center on the wall :)

[Brian Walter]

if it would be possible to get the bass down to 30hz in a sealed enclosure and still be smaller than the ported enclosure. I like the sealed bass sound but for 4 - 8" drivers I feel they are a little weak. I ran test tone from 300hz down to 18hz and my RS 3 ways roll off 45 and 50hz. I built the DM version with seas tweeter. The highs and mids in my opinion are about perfect when playing them next to a pair of Boston accoustics VR40's but the bass is not where I expected it to be. I was hoping the bass would be more comparable to an old pair of infinity Kappa's I used to have. Just wondering.

You could get the bass down to 30 hz if you were to use some sort of active equalization, such as a Linkwitz Transform or simply a bass boost. But those 8" drivers don't have that much Xmax and with a bass boost, you'd run out in a hurry. So, if you would be willing to live with lower overall SPL, you could boost the low end slightly.

Brian Walter

[bvanfleet]

if it would be possible to get the bass down to 30hz in a sealed enclosure and still be smaller than the ported enclosure. I like the sealed bass sound but for 4 - 8" drivers I feel they are a little weak. I ran test tone from 300hz down to 18hz and my RS 3 ways roll off 45 and 50hz. I built the DM version with seas tweeter. The highs and mids in my opinion are about perfect when playing them next to a pair of Boston accoustics VR40's but the bass is not where I expected it to be. I was hoping the bass would be more comparable to an old pair of infinity Kappa's I used to have. Just wondering.

Let me start off by retracting my previous statement. After a couple days of break in, these speakers have come to life. I played with stuffing the enclosures but to me they sounded best with just lining the cabinets with foam and no poly fill. I find that placement with these speakers is critical. When too close to the back wall they seem to lose some of the depth. i have mine about a foot and a half off the back wall to back of speaker (Thats as far as the wife will allow until I finish my theater room). As far as the bass goes this changed the most after they broke in. Now it sounds nice and punchy. No Boom (Which is a good thing). By adding a sub crossed at around 60hz I now have the full range I desired. I do believe these to be a step up from mid-fi and at times a considerable one. The 3d imaging is amazing and the seas tweeter puts the finishing touch on top. If you get a chance , listen to Craig Chaqico's "Gypsy Nights". It sounds incredible. 3 guitars - far left , center and far right sound like the are in the room with you.
Thanks for all those who helped design the RS 3ways. I now feel I have a set of speakers that are true audiophile quality. Now to build the center..

[crackyflipside]

With all this talk of breaking in, is it the larger woofers that need the longest time or is the tweeter even need to be broken in?

[kgveteran]

Didn't you add a BBC dip? Have you since done away with that?


Hello,
Yes, I pulled out all the EQ's after the speaker were broke in.The RS150 needs some breakin time. After readjusting everything I opened up the tweeters about 85% (using an L-pad) and no longer use PEQ's.

I hate to say it but i don't even use one on my subs any more.After doing an A/B comparison, the BFD is out of the loop too.I have plus and minus 4db peaks and nulls that i'm leaving alone.I still use the Marchand BASSIS to boost the bottom end though.

i really jumped the gun with all those damn PEQ's.I've sold off all but one.


One note.I use cinema Re-EQ for movies.I can now watch whole movies close to reference level (not that i would ) The OutlawAudio 990 has a very good Re-EQ .

KG

[Prototrax]

Dennis Murphy crossover design question............

In the woofer crossover portion of the design
R1011 is .500 ohms (inherent)


What does inherent mean?

Do I have to add a .500 resistor in this circut?

I see pictures that only show a 100 cap, 15 cap and a 3.00 inductor.

[Dennis H]

.5 ohms is the DC resistance of the inductor. Choose the gauge of the inductor so that's the DCR.

[Prototrax]

Thanks for the help.

[Fryguy]

Are any versions of the WMTW usable in a vertical orientation on stands? I've been looking around for oversized bookshelves to use as computer speakers, and since I love the TMWWs I have so much I figured it'd be nice to see if I can duplicate their performance up here in the bedroom.

Ported would be nice, as I would like to avoid a sub up here if possible (I'm sub-spoiled, and don't like building small subs, which is what I would have to do up here I think, unless I got really creative.

[ibilisi]

Hey guys, I'm still plugging away on this, thought I'd ask for input on my inductor placement. (DM Seas Mid Cross) I have a pic of the other crosses as well how they'll most likely look in the bottom of the towers.

Any comments would be most helpful!

[cjd]

Fryguy, I think Jon's new project (with the RS52) will be right up your alley. Not sure why I didn't notice this before. :)

ibilisi: I'd stand one of the small inductors on the top crossover up. Probably the one in the top left corner. Orient it parallel to the top edge. And squeeze those cored inductors as far away from the rest as possible. I usually opt for corner placement on inductors.

[ibilisi]

ok, so I reworked it yet again.

This look any better? These inductors really are a pain eh? (I wonder if I'm paranoid)

In the bottom two boards, I'll be trimming the fat off of the lower edge to give a little more distance.

[Lurkalot]

I can find paul O'neal's 150-28a.........where? That sounds like a perfect match for a rear(side) surround.This is a very dangerous forum :) .


Could anyone help me by sending me the current link to this design if they know of it? (the one posted does not work). These would work perfectly for wall mounted surround speakers.

Thank you

[cjd]

I'm not aware of a Paul O design for those drivers.

I've done one, it's buried around here somewhere. I'll try to dig it up. I think the others I know (Jeff B, Mudjock) used the Seas tweeters.

[Brian Bunge]

Paul had an on-wall version I believe. I'm not sure where on here it was posted though.

[Lurkalot]

Thanks very much for your help :>)

[Rudy D]

GUYS,
I HAVEN'T BEEN ON THIS BOARD IN A WHILE. AS YOU MAY REMEBER, IHAVE BUILT VERY EARLY ON IN THIS THREAD, THE PORTED VERSION. BUT THE WIFE FACTOR CAME INTO PLAY, SO I DISDASSEMBLED IT AND BUILT THE JIM HOLTZ SEALED VERSION. THEN ALONG CAME BRIAN WALTERS, SO I THEN WENT AND BUILT THE CURVED VERSION. SO I HAVE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE BUILDING THE DIFFERENT VERSIONS. I ALSO BUILT TWO DIFFERENT cc. HOWEVER, I BUILD, I DONT DESIGN! NOW I HAVE A cc THAT DOESNT MATCH THE CURVED VERSIONOF THE TOWERS. I WAS WONDERING IS SOME OF YOU THAT HAVE THE S/W COULD DESIGN A CURVED VERSION OF THE CC BASED ON BRIANS DESIGN.

[geoffstgermaine]

I've built a curved version of the CC. Unfortunately my order from Parts Express was lost in shipping and I'm still working on the insurance claim for it. Having a $300 order lost in shipping is a bad feeling.

[Rudy D]

I've built a curved version of the CC. Unfortunately my order from Parts Express was lost in shipping and I'm still working on the insurance claim for it. Having a $300 order lost in shipping is a bad feeling.

What are the demension?

[geoffstgermaine]

What are the demension?

The baffle and depth are the same, 12.5" x 26" x 16". The radius of the sides is 18". The width of the back is 5.25". This makes it slightly smaller than the 16" depth center and slightly larger than the center kgveteran built. The mid/tweeter volume is the same and the two RS225s have about 1.6 cu ft.

[Rudy D]

The baffle and depth are the same, 12.5" x 26" x 16". The radius of the sides is 18". The width of the back is 5.25". This makes it slightly smaller than the 16" depth center and slightly larger than the center kgveteran built. The mid/tweeter volume is the same and the two RS225s have about 1.6 cu ft.
Sounds great! I got my marching orders!

[JonP]

The baffle and depth are the same, 12.5" x 26" x 16". The radius of the sides is 18". The width of the back is 5.25". This makes it slightly smaller than the 16" depth center and slightly larger than the center kgveteran built. The mid/tweeter volume is the same and the two RS225s have about 1.6 cu ft.

Nice... :T

I'm wondering about the chamfers you have at the front baffle edges.

How big are they, and how did you go about veneering them? Any tips on doing something like that?

Good luck on the shipping problem... usually PE is very supportive...

[sprint_9]

Very nice looking work. Hope you get your shipping figured out, Im sure PE will get it worked out.

[geoffstgermaine]

Very nice looking work. Hope you get your shipping figured out, Im sure PE will get it worked out.

Yeah, they sent me a number to phone to get it rolling. I've just been too busy during their business hours for the past two weeks that I can't get a chance to call them.

[kgveteran]

I've built a curved version of the CC. Unfortunately my order from Parts Express was lost in shipping and I'm still working on the insurance claim for it. Having a $300 order lost in shipping is a bad feeling.


Sorry about the order loss........I think I have cabinet envy :oops:

[geoffstgermaine]

Nice... :T

I'm wondering about the chamfers you have at the front baffle edges.

How big are they, and how did you go about veneering them? Any tips on doing something like that?

Good luck on the shipping problem... usually PE is very supportive...

The chamfers are about 1/2" on either side, making the face of the chamfer around .7". I just routed them with a chamfer bit. Veneering them was pretty easy since they are very narrow. I used an oak veneer and painted a couple of coats of diluted yellow glue onto the back of the veneer and onto the surface of the cabinet and ironed the pieces on. I did the chamfers first and just gently sanded the edges back flush with the edges of the cabinet.

Oh yeah, and I'll plug PE since their support is great. I phoned them this morning and they're sending out a replacement order tomorrow. Took about 3 minutes on the phone... great stuff.

[sprint_9]

Yea I figured they would, my dad deals with UPS and they lose whole car engines and transmissions, they will just go in to a large shipping center and not come back out, so the larger companies know first hand how bad it is. Its amazing the amount of dollars that are lost in the shipping companies, or should I say most likely stolen.

[thatdave]

Good morning.

Long time lurker, finally have my own home to make as I like.


One question is, would the basic XO design work with one 4Ohm vs 2 8Ohm? looking at the driver specs (as per PE anyway) the 2 8s in paralell look about right as one 4Ohm. I was thinking of making 2 as WMT surrounds, by using 1 4Ohm woofer in 1/2 cabinet size of the full size WMTW.

[geoffstgermaine]

Here's the stand I just completed for my center.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c244/geoffstgermaine/DSC03520.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c244/geoffstgermaine/DSC03519.jpg

[chasw98]

That looks really nice! :T One of the best I have seen in the whole thread! Congratulations on a great job.

Chuck

[geoffstgermaine]

Thanks Chuck.

I am very anxious to get the drivers.... hopefully they'll show up this week. The center it's replacing is an old JBL Flix1, which has two 4.5" woofer and a 2" tweeter. I have a feeling it's going to be a night and day difference. Once I'm satisfied with the sound of this center (which I'm sure I will be) I'll be building the matching towers.

[digital desire]

Very Impressive!

They look "wealthy".

[bottlebrush]

Hello Dennis,
Sorry to bother you with some more questions re-floorstanders-
I am a new member from Australia and have read the entire 54 pages. I am considering making your floorstanders with the Seas 27TDFC.I am used to having floorstanders with smaller cabinets.(less depth) Could you PLEASE look at what changes are necessary in the crossover for a 2.83 to 3.00 cu.ft.(80 to 85 litre) ported cabinet.This should still give it an F3 of around 29hz. (I would really like to position the drivers WWTM, but I have read this is a no-no.Could you look at what crossover changes could be done here please)Also. nobody has mentioned the affect on Bass from using Spikes in the floorstanders.What effect would there be with a front port?
-thanks-
bottlebrush

[BobEllis]

I'm not Dennis but, there is no crossover change required going to a shallower cabinet as long as you keep the baffle width the same.

As for rearranging the drivers, it would require nearly a complete redesign. You wouldn't want to do it unless you are a tall person who will sit on the floor to listen. You really want tweeters close to ear height.

Front port should be a negligible difference if any.

I haven't heard a difference with spikes, others do. It's up to you.

[bottlebrush]

Hello Bob--
thanks for your input.
Just another question--as the woofers and the mid have the same SPL(however, there are two woofers in parallel)--doesn't this suggest too much Bass? --or has Dennis designed a fantastic crossover that tends to boost the mid to keep a better balance of sound?-normally,I would use two mids in parallel(same SPL) to match the woofers or a single mid with a higher SPL.
-I don't mind Bass, in fact I love it--as long as it is strong,tight,punchy and not boomy. As most of my music is Rock,R&B, and Traditional Jazz(British terminology--New Orleans style would be more US terminology). And I do listen to it loud. My amps are 150 watts for "clean,effortless sound" and "tube" cd players. Incidentally--my speaker position would be about 1 to 1.5 ft.(rear of cabinet to rear wall)
-thanks-
bottlebrush

[riceaterslc]

well, i soldered my first xover for this project. i just want to make sure i am following the diagrams properly. i know its sloppy as hell, but i will clean it up :) if you see anything that can be corrected please let me know, thanks!

http://www.smokedtires.com/dubr/cwong/low%20XOver.jpg

[Jim Holtz]

Hello Bob--
thanks for your input.
Just another question--as the woofers and the mid have the same SPL(however, there are two woofers in parallel)--doesn't this suggest too much Bass? --or has Dennis designed a fantastic crossover that tends to boost the mid to keep a better balance of sound?-normally,I would use two mids in parallel(same SPL) to match the woofers or a single mid with a higher SPL.
-I don't mind Bass, in fact I love it--as long as it is strong,tight,punchy and not boomy. As most of my music is Rock,R&B, and Traditional Jazz(British terminology--New Orleans style would be more US terminology). And I do listen to it loud. My amps are 150 watts for "clean,effortless sound" and "tube" cd players. Incidentally--my speaker position would be about 1 to 1.5 ft.(rear of cabinet to rear wall)
-thanks-
bottlebrush

Hi Bottlebrush,

I'm not Bob or Dennis but I think I can answer your question. The role of a crossover designer is to blend the drivers for a seamless integration. You are correct that paralleling drivers increases the sensitivity by about 6 DB but there is an inherent loss of about 6 DB from 1K on down that is called baffle step.

The woofers essentially determine the sensitivity of the speaker with the mid and tweeter padded down to match the woofers. This is all based on in cabinet measurements so no guessing involved. The true sensitivity of this design is around 88 DB or so after baffle step is accounted for. The (2) RS225's have the ability to move a lot of air so they have more impact regardless of volume but will not over power the mids since the crossover is designed to integrate the drivers seamlessly.

If you had (2) RS150's in a MTM configuration for the mids, they would have to be padded down much more than the single mid in this design to integrate properly. Power handling would be increased but that is less of a concern for a mid range driver than it is for bass drivers.

HTH

Jim

[cjd]

If you had (2) RS150's in a MTM configuration for the mids, they would have to be padded down much more than the single mid in this design to integrate properly. Power handling would be increased but that is less of a concern for a mid range driver than it is for bass drivers.

Actually, a sensible designer (can I say this about myself? :P ) would actually wire the pair of RS150's in series, for a net sensitivity about where a single RS150 is. Power handling is increased, but more importantly (to my ear) is that excursion is reduced. That's why we went with a pair of RS150's in Ryan's DA Khanspire project. :)

C

[cjd]

well, i soldered my first xover for this project. i just want to make sure i am following the diagrams properly. i know its sloppy as hell, but i will clean it up :) if you see anything that can be corrected please let me know, thanks!

http://www.smokedtires.com/dubr/cwong/low%20XOver.jpg

The wiring itself looks right.

you should note that -term and -speaker both go to the - terminal on that strip, but I'm guessing you know that.

[Jim Holtz]

Actually, a sensible designer (can I say this about myself? :P ) would actually wire the pair of RS150's in series, for a net sensitivity about where a single RS150 is. Power handling is increased, but more importantly (to my ear) is that excursion is reduced. That's why we went with a pair of RS150's in Ryan's DA Khanspire project. :)

C

Good point Chris. Thanks for pointing that out. The less excursion, the lower the distortion.

Jim

[riceaterslc]

The wiring itself looks right.

you should note that -term and -speaker both go to the - terminal on that strip, but I'm guessing you know that.

yup, i just didnt label it. thanks!

[geoffstgermaine]

Well, the parts showed up on Friday and I got it up and running today. My first impression is very good. It is a leap ahead of what I was using (big surprise :p:). Now on to the towers. :B

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c244/geoffstgermaine/DSC03679.jpg

The only thing I'm still trying to find is some longer black #8-32 machine screws. The largest I could find is 1.25" at PE and I need something that's at least 1.5". I found some SS 2" screws locally, but they sort of clash with the all black front. Does anyone know where I could find some in black?

[BobEllis]

www.mcmaster.com probably has what you need. Try also www.smallparts.com

[geoffstgermaine]

Thanks a lot Bob, McMaster-Carr had exactly what I needed.

Cheers!

Edit: But apparently they do not export to Canada even though it doesn't say so on their site and their automated checkout took my Canadian address including a drop menu that had Canada in it... what a waste of time. Off to check the other place.

[chiahead]

Ok, I am trying these speakers as my first attempt at speaker building. I am attempting the center to begin with. I am looking at some plans posted awhile ago, and for the speaker cut outs, the tweeter states 3.25 cut through, and 4.13 at a depth of .25. Now when I measured the tweeter, the depth at the rim was 1/8 not 1/4, so before I cut into this piece I wanted to make sure this was correct to use .25. Is this for the foam stripping that goes in between the speaker and the MDF?

Thanks
Michael

[Brian Bunge]

The tweeter cut through is wrong. I use a 3" through hole, a 4 1/8" diameter recess that is 1/8" deep. On my big towers I used 3 1/8" through hole for the tweeters and there was barely enough MDF left for the screws to bite into.

[chiahead]

Well, good thing I pre-routed my speaker cutouts, there were a few more measurements that needed tweeking.

I have another question dealing with T-nuts. The ones I bought at Home Depot, are for #8 machine screws, and 1/4" length shaft. Those will fit in the rabbeted out lip only if I grind off one of the 4 lips that hold the barbs. Is this what people do, or are the ones from Parts Express smaller? Or is there some other way to mount these? Drywall screws will fit, but the black drywall heads are just not black enough (unless I get out the spray paint).

[chiahead]

Found a 1 1/2 year old thread that discusses this. Guess I will skip the t-nuts, and try some of these ideas.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=19449

[NoNoBadDog]

This is my first post here so I will attempt not to sound totally clueless (even though I probably am).

I really want to express my gratitude for all the work of all the folks that helped with the design of these speakers.

I was in Iraq with nothing to do in my spare time. There was nothing to do on Anaconda as far as entertainment so I decided to look into building a set of speakers when I got home. This sounds ludicrous since I have hearing losses in both ears ranging from 25 to 75 decibels. I got hearing aids just before I deployed and now I can hear again. IT IS GREAT!!!!! The only problem with my hearing aids is that I can’t tell if I am hearing things the same way other folks are hearing them. I think I am but I can’t remember what regular hearing is like. I started surfing the net to see if I could learn about building crossovers and cabinets when I ran across this forum. I spent a lot of sleepless nights soaking up information and trying to design boxes and crossovers. I have been lurking for a long time. There is a huge learning curve here. I still have a long ways to go to understand what everything in a crossover does but I won’t quit till I get a good idea on how to design them. When Jim Holtz, Dennis Murphy and Curt Campbell get going with their discussions and my brain goes on tilt.

When I was ready to come back home I was still revising designs and scrapping them as fast as I could come up with them. I needed some speakers, fast, so I bought a pair of Boston Acoustics VR2s and started to build the towers for the TMWW design. It was a juggling act since we were going install a hardwood floor, paint the downstairs and put wainscot on all the walls. It took me about 5 weeks but I got the speakers done between projects. I use the BA’s for rears now.

The speakers sound great. They are so much more than I would have ever been able to afford otherwise. I had them cranked up last night while we were working. The wife looked at me and hollered, “AWESOME SPEAKERS” with a big grin on her face.

Now I am building another set of cabinets with a few small changes. I am going to use dowels to hold the pieces together and make the face removable. I am also going to make it easier to get to the crossover. Then I will put some veneer on it.

I am in the process of trying to design a set of speakers. I have a few concepts in mind and am still in the process of figuring out exactly what I want I want to accomplish as far as crossover points and what to use for drivers.

I know this is a long post and I am sorry about that. I just didn’t know how to express my gratitude with any less verbage. Thanks a bunch folks. I am now an almost complete man, just one more set of speakers. Well, maybe two more sets…….. Who knows?

I also have my first question. Where do I pay to become a member?

[Dennis H]

Hey NoNoBadDog,

Welcome to the forum and I'm glad you like your DIY speakers. We should all be thanking you for serving in Iraq. You guys rock! :T

[chasw98]

I also have my first question. Where do I pay to become a member?

You knew someone had to respond to this didn't ya? Thanks for serving. Thomas usually handles the money around this joint! :T :B

I built a set of these also and they are still very nice speakers.

Chuck

[cjd]

I am in the process of trying to design a set of speakers. I have a few concepts in mind and am still in the process of figuring out exactly what I want I want to accomplish as far as crossover points and what to use for drivers.

Share! ;) Seriously, there are a few "my first design" threads around here where tips and ideas are bandied about to help through the rough spots. Helps you fill in gaps in your knowledge you didn't know existed, gives you someone to cry to when something isn't right for the umpteenth time (I HATE measuring speakers!), and folks to share your glee when it all comes together!

Oh yeah... paying to be a member? Hmmm, I musta missed that. If you're buying from forum sponsors, be sure to find their site via the banner ads. I still forget to do that when I snag stuff from PE sometimes.

Good to be home, eh? :)

C

[Brian Bunge]

(I HATE measuring speakers!)

Chris,

Jim (aka jimandangie I believe) uses ARTA and says he's had no trouble with it at all. I got to hear his redesigned Thors again briefly this past Friday and he's obviously getting good measurements because they sound pretty damn good. If I can clear some space off of my puny 20G HD on this laptop I'm going to download it as well.

[yousuredo2]

I have re-skimmed through the thread a few times, but haven't seen any definite answers.

~ Center channel speaker ~
If space isn't limited, and width & depth could be changed.
what is optimal for the rs225's , without crossover changes ?

[yousuredo2]

below is what I am aiming for, but a little bigger is fine too.
I built a new tv stand for it to fit into, but with the BSC built into the crossover, it will not work out correct.
I want it to sit on top of the stand & my tv to sit on the CC speaker.

top speaker is original design, bottom is my larger curved design.

[chiahead]

Well, just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this post. I finished my center channel last weekend, and the towers last night. These sound incredible. This was my first attempt at any speakers, so I am greatly pleased with the results. I will be opening these back up to apply veneer and stain, then reassembling, and at that time sealing so that it is truely airtight and add weather stripping to the drivers.

My only problem is this is for the basement theater that hasn't even begun building yet, I won't want to give these up and place in storage until then, but they are large, and the WAF isn't very good in the family room. (She likes it all hung from the ceiling and the wires hidden.) But I will enjoy it for as long as I can.

Now to look at some bass to go with these...

Thank you to all the builders and people who gave of their time and money in designing these so that the rest of us could enjoy some great quality sound for a DIY price.

[kgveteran]

Has anyone figured out the nominal impedence of the WTMW center yet. I'm using Curt C's XO.

I was interested in a ATI 1506 amplifier and wanted to bridge all channels for a (3) channel amp ( It's a six channel amp ) , but was concerned with the load of these center channels as I use three for my LCR. The amp is rated at 450 watts per channel, bridged into 8 ohms.Since they didn't give a 4 ohm rating I'm figuring 2 ohms per side may be a bit much.

Thanx KG

[Dardog]

I've decided to go ahead and build the towers and center speakers and am wondering whether anyone can recommend a good resource to explain the basics of speaker building. I have spent a lot of time over the past year reading this thread and others, so I feel I have a good handle on these particular speakers. My problem is that I am completely new at this and there are many basic issues that the posters on this thread (and others) never address because they are so basic. Can anyone recommend a good resource book to help me understand the basics of speaker building? I'm not focused on speaker design at this point, just constructing the speakers. I realize past threads are a good resource as well and I have searched for specific answers when a question has popped into my head, but right now I'm looking for something that will tie the whole process together so I have a better understanding of how to proceed.

Thanks

[cjd]

KG: it's definitely a 4ohm nominal design, dips a bit below that in reality I believe.

Dardog: what kind of basics are you looking for? Woodworking? Crossover assembly? ...

C

[kgveteran]

Thanx. I hate to stress out a nice amp design like the ATI with a 4 ohm load per channel.

KG

[Dardog]

Dardog: what kind of basics are you looking for? Woodworking? Crossover assembly? ...

C

I'm more concerned about the electronics end than the cabinet construction end. I've gleaned a lot of information on the woodworking issues from this site. I see people show their XOs prior to soldering, but I don't see a lot of basic information on this. For example, most of the XOs have a connector from which the wires from the XO connect to another set of wires from the speaker terminal. I'm not sure what I need for that. Another question is On the back side of the terminal cup, do you have three sets of wires that go to each of the crossovers, or if not, how do you do it. As I said, it's real basic questions from someone that has a lot of theoretical knowledge from reading at this site, but no real practical experience.

[Dardog]

I'm going through the BOMs and am trying to find a way to save a few $. What would be the effect of substituting the "Jantzen 1.2mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor" and "Jantzen 1.5mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor" with the following steel laminates: 15 AWG Sledgehammer Steel Laminate Inductors: 1.5mH and 1.25mH? These changes would save me about $25.

[olympiawa]

maybe this will help?

A brief tutorial on how to assemble custom crossovers (http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Articles/constxo/xoconst.htm)

[Nichol1997]

Once you build the towers and the center what do people do for the surrounds?

[Dardog]

maybe this will help?

A brief tutorial on how to assemble custom crossovers (http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Articles/constxo/xoconst.htm)

Thank you. That was helpful.

[---k---]

I'm going through the BOMs and am trying to find a way to save a few $. What would be the effect of substituting the "Jantzen 1.2mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor" and "Jantzen 1.5mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor" with the following steel laminates: 15 AWG Sledgehammer Steel Laminate Inductors: 1.5mH and 1.25mH? These changes would save me about $25.

You shouldn't. The DCR values are very differnt and will likely impact the frequency response. Iron cores also can saturate more easily and may not sound as good. You'll notice that where possible, Dennis did select a an iron core to save cost.

[Dardog]

You shouldn't. The DCR values are very differnt and will likely impact the frequency response. Iron cores also can saturate more easily and may not sound as good. You'll notice that where possible, Dennis did select a an iron core to save cost.


Looks like I will stick with what is recommended. Thanks!

[Silversmoky]

I have been working on the center on and off again for awhile (getting close to finishing crossovers) and just got to wondering if anybody has done it ported? Is it possible? From what I have read this wouldn't need a crossover design change right? I have built it using the larger size- 28w x 18 1/2l x 11 1/1 h. Was considering two ports one on each of the sides. Let me know if this is a bad idea!:) Thanks!

[---k---]

Well, the size of the box, the port diameter, and the port length are all interrelated.

You definitely can port it, but you need to model it and make sure you get something that works.

I did a quick model. It looks like you got about 60L net. So, with a 3" port, try tunning it to 35hz with 11.5" long 3" port.

The attached graph shows the difference. Maybe someone else can come up with a better model.

[Silversmoky]

Thanks K. Would 35 hz be the best tuning point to go with? Also would that be the measurements for just one port? If I used two would I just split those measurement numbers in half? I also have a couple of two inch precision ports. Would it be possible to use two of these to attain the tuning point. Thanks.

[Dougie085]

If your using 2 ports they have to be twice as long I believe. And those are smaller then 3" In most cases it's best to use one port simply due to port lengths.

[Silversmoky]

Ah that makes sense now that I really think about it!:) Thanks. So maybe just go with a single 3" with total length 11.5? Is the 35 hz a good tuning point for this setup?

[Dougie085]

Looks pretty darn good to me...gives you down to about 25hz @ 100dB.

[Silversmoky]

I think that is what I will go with. Thanks.

[---k---]

I want to back up, and not necessarily recommend porting these. I haven't built these speakers, so I'm not an expert on the design. I'm not sure what the original models look like, and how porting these will affect it. i'm not saying that it is a bad idea either. You just may want to take what I've given you as a starting point for more research.

That model was a real quickie based on the box you've built. You'll notice there is a bit of rising in the bass around 100hz. It isn't perfect. You might want to play with the model yourself. Download Unibox and give it a whirl. It isn't that hard.

[Silversmoky]

Alright K, I will do that. I am definitely not in hurry with these and I don't mind playing around with them a little. I am pretty certain I will be happy with these either way I go. I was just curious because it seems like I tend to like how ported sounds a little better than sealed. I will see what I come up with. Thanks for the help.

[Dardog]

I have ordered all of my parts and in an effort to keep within my budget I went with a bunch of the 10uF GE caps. I'm now starting to think that I am being too cheap (if you're going to spend $1,000 building speakers, should you skimp on capacitors to save $50.) Any guidance as to what difference in sound I would hear between using bundled 10uf caps vs. the standard size ( I would probably go with the Daytons if I decide to spend the extra money)? If the GE caps are just as good (or close enough) how do I go about assembling the large caps? Do I just grab 10 caps and wire them together for the 100uF caps or is there more to it than that?

Thanks for the help!

[---k---]

I have ordered all of my parts and in an effort to keep within my budget I went with a bunch of the 10uF GE caps. I'm now starting to think that I am being too cheap (if you're going to spend $1,000 building speakers, should you skimp on capacitors to save $50.) Any guidance as to what difference in sound I would hear between using bundled 10uf caps vs. the standard size ( I would probably go with the Daytons if I decide to spend the extra money)?


There was a thread recently discussing the GE caps. Thomas said that Jon did some listening and couldn't tell the difference between the GE and Daytons/Benics. CJD has used the GE's in his big 3-ways, and they sound great. The GE's are good caps, and you're likely not going to hear a difference until you spend a lot more $$

If the GE caps are just as good (or close enough) how do I go about assembling the large caps? Do I just grab 10 caps and wire them together for the 100uF caps or is there more to it than that?

Thanks for the help!

Yep. Just twist the ends together. CJD, Brian, or Kingpin will likely be along shortly posting pictures of their crossovers with big bundles of caps. :)

[Dardog]

It turns out I didn't buy GE caps, but the Tyee 10uF caps instead. Any adivce on whether I can solely use those, or is there another approach should consider?

[---k---]

If you've bought them, wire them up and see what happens. My guess is that you'll be more than fine. :)

[Raptor550]

Hello everybody, this may seem like a super lame question, but I have novice electrical knowledge. A while ago I bought 2 4Ohm RS225's, I have been wanting to build them into a center channel, -how I found this thread. I got really excited before I remembered my Daytons are not 8 Ohm. MY question is:

Is there a way to somehow "fool" any one of the 3 cc crossovers into using 2 4 Ohm speakers with minimal impact to the sound quality?

Its probably not as simple as "add a resistor here or there" or "change a value here", but if so, I will run to the store and buy the parts. I figure if the woofers are already paid for, I can probably afford to buy the rest of the stuff. :sos:

[Jed]

Is there a way to somehow "fool" any one of the 3 cc crossovers into using 2 4 Ohm speakers with minimal impact to the sound quality?



Not really. It will require a complete crossover revision. I'd recommend selling your drivers at diymobileaudio.com or ebay and then buy the correct woofers.

[---k---]

Additionally, the T/S parameters are different between the two versions. Like Jed said.

[spentit]

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=289904&postcount=1388
http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php4?attachmentid=7617
Here is one cad design:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=248202&postcount=395
This thread unfortunatly is getting very long, with many different designs. I can not find the "blue print" of the center I had built for me, it was slightly different, total width was 26" and total depth is 16". Dunno how much the depth cost me in response vs. the bigger cabinet.
The above schematics are the DM seas version...
I would suggest that given the rate of dead links appearing that you print out everything that is of interest to your project and making a project folder.

I am building Dennis's WMT as per this thread,http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=25453&highlight=WMT+RS225, with the seas 27TBFC/G tweeter. To build the WMTW center using the same tweeter, are the XO schematics listed in your post the ones I should be using for similar voicing, if so the RS225 XO only shows 1 woofer, do I duplicate the circuit for each one?

I am a little confused digging through this thread.

Thanks.

[dawaro]

I am building Dennis's WMT as per this thread,http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=25453&highlight=WMT+RS225, with the seas 27TBFC/G tweeter. To build the WMTW center using the same tweeter, are the XO schematics listed in your post the ones I should be using for similar voicing, if so the RS225 XO only shows 1 woofer, do I duplicate the circuit for each one?

I am a little confused digging through this thread.

Thanks.
No, just use one circuit for both of them. They are treated as one driver.

[spentit]

Ok, so the second driver is wired parallel with the one shown, or series?

[dawaro]

Ok, so the second driver is wired parallel with the one shown, or series?
It is wired parallel

[ssabripo]

shameless plug, but in case someone is thinking of trying one of these designs and doesn't want to dive in full force, I'm putting my center channel on sale:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=394223#post394223

[Rick Craig]

I tested a pair of the WWMT's with and without DM's crossover today. If anyone is interested I can email the results to you.

[mdterp301]

I am a noob at building speakers, but I have chosen this design to start off with. I'm trying to order part for the RS 3-way economy and I can't seem to find "1.0 Sledgehammer 16AWG" on the Madisound website. Is it gone, or what? If so, what can I use to replace it?

[sprint_9]

15awg should work and be similar specs

First one on the list
http://madisound.com/manufacturers/madisound/inductors/sledgehammer.php

[Dardog]

I'm resuming work on this project this weekend after purchasing all the parts around New Years. My first question (of many) is, would there be any issues using regular construction 1/2" plywood on the front and back panels of the speakers and for the cross bracing and midwoofer enclosure? I had originally thought of using 1/2" baltic birch, but am wondering if I can go with a cheaper material. All of the external panels (front, back, sides, top and bottom) will be 3/4" MDF. The front and back panels will be 1 and 1/4" thick comprised of MDF and plywood.

Thanks

[mdterp301]

Ok, so what types of amps are people using for these towers? I currently use my Onkyo TX-SR705 to run my current speakers, but I don't have a lot of faith in it's ability to adequately handle a 4 ohm load. I've been looking at pro amps (Behringer and Crown). What's everyone here using? What's a good recommendation?

[Jim Holtz]

Both Emotiva and Outlaw are good choices, or if you'd rather do a piece at a time, check out used Haflers and Marantz amps. Used Outlaw 950's can be bought really cheap and they're a decent pre/pro if you're not worried about the new HD formats.

HTH

Jim

[mdterp301]

What about a Rotel RB-990BX? I came across a used one and at a good price. It's 200 wpc into 8 ohms and 330 wpc into 4 ohms. Seems like it would be perfect for the TMWW's.

[Jim Holtz]

What about a Rotel RB-990BX? I came across a used one and at a good price. It's 200 wpc into 8 ohms and 330 wpc into 4 ohms. Seems like it would be perfect for the TMWW's.

I like Rotel. If the price is right, go for it.:T

Jim

[PoorboyMike]

I'm resuming work on this project this weekend after purchasing all the parts around New Years. My first question (of many) is, would there be any issues using regular construction 1/2" plywood on the front and back panels of the speakers and for the cross bracing and midwoofer enclosure? I had originally thought of using 1/2" baltic birch, but am wondering if I can go with a cheaper material. All of the external panels (front, back, sides, top and bottom) will be 3/4" MDF. The front and back panels will be 1 and 1/4" thick comprised of MDF and plywood.

Thanks

The plywood should work just fine for braces. I will use whatever I have laying around, even solid wood. MDF is nice and dense, but it really isn't very "stiff" at all.

[mdterp301]

If I'm going to use PE Deep Thread Pan Head Screws to install the drivers, what length should I use? My front baffle will be 1.5'' (2 sheets of .75'' MDF).

[k7geek]

K, after many delays, a few large tool purchases and redoing the front baffles since the person who did the first ones can't seem to read measurements at all I'm finally finishing up the TMWW pair.

Is there any reason that I should not place the crossovers up higher in the cabinet so I can access them thru the woofer and mid holes if needed ? Low pass would go in the lower woofer chamber, mid-pass in second woofer chamber and high pass either in with the mid-pass or, if not totally a horrible idea, it fits perfectly thru the midrange hole.

My routing skills are iffy at best and I do not want to screw up the backs of the cabinets attempting an access door and even though it sounded like a cool idea, I dont want to have the x-overs in an external box with 3 pairs of bindng posts on the cabinet.

Thanks

J

[Dennis H]

Is there any reason that I should not place the crossovers up higher in the cabinet so I can access them thru the woofer and mid holes if needed ? That's exactly how you should do it. Make sure the XO boards fit through the holes. It's a lot easier to pull the whole board than to reach in through the hole and do XO surgery.

[Raptor550]

Hi all, been going through this forum trying to find economy options for the XO for the center channel. I must have looked through this soo many times but now I am in ohio and I am going to purchase SOMETHING on Saturday, but I am getting frazzeled sifting through options with the buy date getting closer.
1. Are the towers and CC identical electronic topology's?
2. Have any of the designs been altered since 2006?
3. All the BOMS have the rs 225's at $40, did those prices go up?
4. What is the the most inexpensive CC BOM? Curt C's?
5. And finally, I have the natp's L&R and a 15 inch sub. would the ZDT3.5 centers be any more or less matched than the RSwm/tw with my current setup? the ZDT3.5 are nearly half the price. I dont want to get into a "whos is better" but what would better match my system?

I am in a house with not much more than wood floors and drywall so i may need a calmer tweeter setting. it seems the seas are a little better tweeters in a hot environment but its hard to tell based off what I heard in my livingroom on two different crossovers.

[ron_c]

Hi all! My first post here on the forum! :T

I just finished my build of these great speakers! I just wanted to thank DM for this great crossover design and Brian for his great curved cabinet design!! I decided to go the curved route to fit my style and used Brian’s build method of cutting strips of 3/4" MDF to make the curve. Let me tell you...it was time consuming and at times a PITA! I topped the strips with a 1/8" layer of hardboard and glued with wood and gorilla glue. I used cherry veneer on the cabinet with the same stain Brian used. I finished it with 2 coats of spray on gloss and 1 coat of spray on satin. They are not perfect, but they exceeded my expectations! I still have a few touch ups to do, but they are pretty much done. All in all, I would do this build again. I am going to use the same approach on the center channel.

Hopefully the pictures show up below! BTW, these things are BIG! Mine weigh in at right around 70+ lbs a piece!

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread!

Ron

[---k---]

1. Are the towers and CC identical electronic topology's?

Not sure how you're using topology there. They have similar crossover points and slopes, but they are tweaked for the different boxes.

2. Have any of the designs been altered since 2006?

No

3. All the BOMS have the rs 225's at $40, did those prices go up?

yep. diesel to power those container ships is expensive. copper has also gone way up. your inductors and everything are likely to be 20% more than those in 2006.

4. What is the the most inexpensive CC BOM? Curt C's?

Don't know. You'll have to look at those up.

5. And finally, I have the natp's L&R and a 15 inch sub. would the ZDT3.5 centers be any more or less matched than the RSwm/tw with my current setup? the ZDT3.5 are nearly half the price. I dont want to get into a "whos is better" but what would better match my system?

Both would probably match good enough, as long as you're not one of those who expect pink noise to sound IDENTICAL across all three. If you forced me to pick one, I would probably say the RS 3-way because the tweeter is the same and it is all cone drivers with similar crossover points.

I am in a house with not much more than wood floors and drywall so i may need a calmer tweeter setting. it seems the seas are a little better tweeters in a hot environment but its hard to tell based off what I heard in my livingroom on two different crossovers.

I'm not sure I would agree with that. You can pad the tweeter down if it is a bit too hot for your liking.

[stidrvr]

I read a post in this thread where the centers width was increased by 2". I thought it was a no no to make the baffle narrow? Or is this because this is a center channel and the height is more critical? how much could it be widen before negative effects?

[JRay]

Substitue the RS180 for the RS150?
OK, it's been a while for me. Just now getting back to speaker building after an almost 2 year break. No X/O design experience, but decent basic elect knowledge.

I like this design, but have the RS180's from a failed spherical build. I would like to sustitue the RS180's for the 150's.

I searched the tread does seam like anyone went this way. Seems to me like the RS180 would be better on both the high and the low side. Any ideas or links where someone has crossed the RS28a to a single 180?

JRay

[Dougie085]

The RS150's are said to be the best midranges of the RS designs. Aren't the woofers RS180's?

[JRay]

I don't know what's best, seems like everything has compromises. You can use a driver under any label, tweeter, midrange, woofer, all depends on the X/O.

Curt C crossed the RS180 at 1900hz.

Anyway just trying to see if this idea has any merit.

JRay

[ThomasW]

Substitue the RS180 for the RS150?
OK, it's been a while for me. Not without completely redesigning the crossover
Any ideas or links where someone has crossed the RS28a to a single 180?
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154

[Dougie085]

And the smaller RS150 is going to reproduce the midrange area with less distortion I'd imagine then the bigger RS180. Although I'm not sure how noticeable of a difference it would be but I know several people on the forum prefer the RS150 for a midrange over any of the RS drivers when put into a 3 way.

[---k---]

If you want to use your existing RS180-8 (assuming it is the shielded 8ohm version), the Khancenter uses the RS150-8, RS180s-8, and the RS28a. It would probably be a much better solution than just switching the RS150 for the RS180.

http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28262

[JRay]

ThomasW and Ryan thanks for the links.

JRay

[k7geek]

K, trying to figure out what I might have done wrong or if it's a crappy room. Got the towers done a while ago then got shipped out of country for work. Finally getting a chance to really sit and listen. Using the CC crossovers, it seems lacking in the low end. I haven't had a chance to run sweeps thru em yet, hopefully that's this weekend, but when listening to stereo sources (CD etc) I find if I don't use my sub I get almost no bottom end. Any suggestions for starting points would be welcomed. If I should start a new thread out in the main DIY forum I will

Thanks

J

[Fryguy]

I wanna match my DM Seas TMWW towers finally.

[speakone23]

Hi,
This maybe a stupid question but here it is anyway. I am about to put together the crossovers for the Dennis Murphy TMWW Seas Towers. I noticed that there is an apparent positive polarity symbol next to each driver in the wiring diagram. This symbol is separate from the circuit polarity symbols. This seemingly positive symbol for both the Tweeter and Woofer are in agreement with the circuit polarity. However, this symbol for the MID driver is not in agreement with the circuit polarity. I looked at the drivers closely and none of them have any polarity signs on the wiring posts. How do I know if I am physically connecting the wire polarity to the driver polarity correctly? If I have two identical drivers as this system does (woofers), how do I know if both drivers are in phase?

[chrisn]

The wiring terminals/posts usually have a + or - stamped into them, though it is sometimes hard to see. Take a close look with good light, they can be tricky. If that fails, you can check the polarity with a battery. Someone correct me if I am wrong (and there is a good chance that I am), as I have never used this method, but I belive touching the positive side of the battery to the woofer/mids positive terminal will move the cone outward. Tweeters are more fragile so proceed with caution.

Hope this helps:)

[Xander]

The wiring terminals/posts usually have a + or - stamped into them, though it is sometimes hard to see. Take a close look with good light, they can be tricky. If that fails, you can check the polarity with a battery. Someone correct me if I am wrong (and there is a good chance that I am), as I have never used this method, but I belive touching the positive side of the battery to the woofer/mids positive terminal will move the cone outward. Tweeters are more fragile so proceed with caution.

Hope this helps:)

Correct. Use a small battery (AA or AAA) for mids. I wouldn't suggest doing this with tweeters, though I have done it on speakers with crossovers to see if my woofers were in phase. Just brush the terminals to the battery (using wire). Makes crackling sounds, and you can see the cones move. I wouldn't hold it on though.

[speakone23]

Thanks,
I looked much closer under good light and sure enough there were small polarity signs stamped into the housing just below the wiring terminals. It looks like the polarity signs were stamped into the housing and then everything was painted. I'm going to have to pay extra attention when I put everything together.

First problem solved, now the second. In the wiring diagrams there is a polarity sign apparently for each driver which is separate from the circuit polarity. For the tweeter and woofer circuits this polarity sign seems to be in agreement with the rest of the circuit. The mid driver polarity seems to be opposite to that of the circuit polarity. First I'm I reading the schematic correctly? If so do I wire the mid driver in reverse polarity to the rest of the mid circuit?

[jdouthett]

I am ready to take the plunge and jump into this project to build some mains and cc. I want to take this opportunity up front to thank all those who have contributed these great speaker designs for those of us that are not able to do this on our own.

I am about to embark on a project to build the RS TMWW towers and I need to identify a suitable center channel speaker. Unfortunately, the matching RS WMTW in this thread is going to exceed my SAF requirements. I have identified these two options and I look for some guidance before I start my order.

The Khancenter featuring RS180/RS150/RS28A in a WMTW configuration looks like I can sneak it within the upper limits of SAF.

The CDJ RS150 MTM Center also looks like a viable option in a sealed configuration.

Current system use is 80% theater, 20% music. I currently have a couple NHT-1259 subs covering the bottom end. Those will stay in place until I can get through this main/center build.

My initial thought is to go with the WMTW if it fits into the environment since the RS225 center wont pass muster with my boss. A smaller alternative, I expect the RS150 center ought to work since I will route the base through the subs.

My only concern with the WMTW is in reading that the crossover was matched to the Khanspire towers and may sound off along side the RS- TMWW. Any thoughts from you that have done this before?

[---k---]

I haven't heard the Dennis Murphy center, but I'm guessing they will be pretty similar sounding. Both are designed to a neutral, flat response. They'll never sound perfectly match. But close. You'll probably have more differences between the mains and the center due to room and placement.

[cjd]

whoops. nevermind. :)

[deucelee]

can someone confirm for me that Curt's center and mains have the NON-SHIELD RS28A? I see that Dennis’s are but didn't see something definitive on Curts...

also, the beginning thread says seal for the towers are preferred...can someone, who probably have a better idea of the history of these towers, tell me if people prefer the seals over the ported by a long shot? or is it negligible? Is the response more flat?

Say, is the percentage of people preferring seal over ported 90%? Or more like 60%...I know I’m asking you guys to pull a number from the wall, but at least you guys have a decent idea…

Say I’m going to be using a sub with the set up, is the extra low end output from the ported set up then not worth as much?

[Jim Holtz]

can someone confirm for me that Curt's center and mains have the NON-SHIELD RS28A? I see that Dennis’s are but didn't see something definitive on Curts...

also, the beginning thread says seal for the towers are preferred...can someone, who probably have a better idea of the history of these towers, tell me if people prefer the seals over the ported by a long shot? or is it negligible? Is the response more flat?

Say, is the percentage of people preferring seal over ported 90%? Or more like 60%...I know I’m asking you guys to pull a number from the wall, but at least you guys have a decent idea…

Say I’m going to be using a sub with the set up, is the extra low end output from the ported set up then not worth as much?

The tweeters are the same for all versions. I believe that all versions of the crossover except for Dennis Murphys are sims so they may require some "voicing" after their built. Dennis actually had the speakers and developed the crossoverfrom measurements.

OK, there isn't any black and white answer regarding ported Vs sealed. Sealed makes a much more manageable cabinet size in a WWMT configuration since the tweeter needs to be ear height. Ported requires about 100 liter cabinet for the dual RS225's so it becomes extremely deep. Sealed works great with a sub.

HTH

Jim

[cjd]

I believe that all versions of the crossover except for Dennis Murphys are sims so they may require some "voicing" after their built. Dennis actually had the speakers and developed the crossoverfrom measurements.

Small correction. Dennis was kind enough to share (or allow to be shared) those measurements, so all have been built from live measured data. Only Dennis got the opportunity to tweak voicing though. :)

Brian Bunge built my variation and liked it as I recall (matched it to the big WWMTM towers).

[deucelee]

ok thanks guys...

[Xander]

First problem solved, now the second. In the wiring diagrams there is a polarity sign apparently for each driver which is separate from the circuit polarity. For the tweeter and woofer circuits this polarity sign seems to be in agreement with the rest of the circuit. The mid driver polarity seems to be opposite to that of the circuit polarity. First I'm I reading the schematic correctly? If so do I wire the mid driver in reverse polarity to the rest of the mid circuit?

Correct :T

The mid will be wired out of phase relative to the tweeter and woofers. It is due to the phase shift in the crossover slopes.

[speakone23]

Thank you for the clarification. Barring any problems the towers should be working this week. If all goes well I'll post some pics.

[limulus]

Hello Guys,
I bought the components to build the TMWW towers in spring 2007. I built the cabinets and started cutting the internal bracing and something came up...Now, it is Jan, 2009 and I want to complete these. I bought the components for Curt's xover and built the cabinets using dawaro's sealed design. I had built a set of Dennis Murphy's MBOW1s and wanted to try something different so I chose Curt's xover.

I have two questions about this xover:
1. Is polarity reversed on the tweets and mids but normal on the woofs? In this photo, they appear to be, but I wanted to check with the forum.

2. I've since read that these crossovers will require some tweaking. Since that is not what I do, can anyone provide some tweaking details?
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/limulus/ccxover.jpg

[Curt C]

Hello Guys,
I bought the components to build the TMWW towers in spring 2007. I built the cabinets and started cutting the internal bracing and something came up...Now, it is Jan, 2009 and I want to complete these. I bought the components for Curt's xover and built the cabinets using dawaro's sealed design. I had built a set of Dennis Murphy's MBOW1s and wanted to try something different so I chose Curt's xover.

I have two questions about this xover:
1. Is polarity reversed on the tweets and mids but normal on the woofs? In this photo, they appear to be, but I wanted to check with the forum.

2. I've since read that these crossovers will require some tweaking. Since that is not what I do, can anyone provide some tweaking details?


1. Yes, polarity is reversed on both the tweeters and the mids.

2. Remote control tweaking is nigh-on impossible. However:
Since you've got all the parts, I'd suggest tacking them together outside of the boxes and seeing how they sound to you. We may be able to provide suggestions depending on what you hear...

C

[limulus]

Thanks Curt!

[ptiller]

I built the sealed center a few months ago, using Curt's crossover and all Dayton drivers. Let me first say it was a very enjoyable experiance for a first project.
I am now trying to decide how I like the sound and I have noticed a few things I am not sure about. I am not sure how much time I have excerised the driver to break them in, but I would estimate an hour each night or so.
The center is mounted on top a 65" big screen ( old school rear projection CRT ) on large stand made of 2x4s ( this center weights a ton! ). The TV and the stand are directly under a sofit ceiling. The center is tilted down with the tweeter still on top ( center not upside down ).
Speaker is driven with Pioneer surround reciever ( about 100W per channel ).
Here is my impressions:
1) The highs seem bright, especially at higher volumes. I am not sure if this is just my preference for soft dome tweeter or I botched the crossover.
2) Male voices ( movie center channel narration or sport announcers from football ) seem very harsh and shrill. Effect is more pronounced as volume is increased.

I have heard of centers that have switches on the back that effect boundary reinforcement in case center is mounted on top of something. IT is unclear if this is jus for bass or effect higher frequecies too. No idea what kind of circuit is implemented with this switch.

Based on my poor description above, could I have a boundary issue brightening the tweeter ( sofit ceiling or top of TV ) or does it seem more likely I botched the cross over for the tweeter?

I have not play with moving this beast around due to shear weight.

Any feedback appreciated.

[---k---]

It is very possible that there is a mistake in your crossover that would cause this. It is best to start a new thread (because it is buried here) with good photos of the crossover. Hopefully we'll be able to follow the layout and check.

It is also possible that there is a problem somewhere else, like too much stuffing in the enclosure. I had that issue once.

It is also possible that the tollerances on the drivers have resulted in you having a little different drivers than what Curt and Dennis used to do the crossovers. I've received a bunch of RS28 tweeters over the last year, and the sensitivity on mine have varied from 89.6 to 91.6, with most right at 90.0db. I'm not sure what the ones Dennis used to do the measurements, but if it was at 90.0db and you got one that is 91.6db, you might want to pad this down with a small crossover modifaction to the l-pad.

[digital desire]

How come the first page of this thread no longer mentions the seas version?

[lowark]

I lined all the walls with 1" sonic barrier. Including the mid area. Is this correct or should I have only done the back wall?

Thanks for a great project by the way. :T

[ThomasW]

How come the first page of this thread no longer mentions the seas version?The first post contains this statement

Post 257 has the Dennis' tower design using the Seas tweeter Below is a link to post 257 where the Seas tweeter is referenced
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15323&page=8&pp=35

The first post also contains a link to the 'summary' page where the Seas tweeter version is referenced.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22393

[digital desire]

Thanks Thomas!
(Doh!)

[SoundEngine355]

Wow, there sure are alot of replies on this thread.

I would like to build the WMTW Centre for a LCR setup, which is the best design?

[rog2961]

Ive been looking at all the crossover designs and what not, seems like a viable project to me. My only concern is the final ohm load the recv sees. Also how are you guys wiring these to the recv? theres a low pass a mid pass and high pass are these crossovers all being wired together?? Any help is much appreciated

[ThomasW]

The speaker is a 4 ohm load.

Most tie the crossover inputs together to one input plate on the back of the cabinet

[rog2961]

would all three of them be wired in parallel or series, and would a regular HT recv be able to handle the 4 ohm load? I was under the assumption they are 8 ohm recv?

[Jim Holtz]

would all three of them be wired in parallel or series, and would a regular HT recv be able to handle the 4 ohm load? I was under the assumption they are 8 ohm recv?

The crossover circuits are all separate so they're wired in parallel. So, for a 3-way like this, you'll have 3 positive connections from the positive binding post to the three crossover circuits and the same with the negative side. There is a book available from PE that is call Speakers 201 or something like that you might find helpful in explaining the basics. I've not read it but it's recommended reading for new DIY speaker builders.

Most/many receivers will struggle with a 4 ohm load at higher volumes but will work at lower volume levels. Most receivers have notoriously poor amp sections. Each one does vary so I'd suggest you check with the manufacturer and see what they recommend.

HTH

Jim

[rog2961]

so a recv with pre amps to a seprate dedicated amp would be the best bet?

[---k---]

yep.

Emotiva also offers/is going to offer a very good value pre-pro & amp combo. Several forum members like Emotiva gear, though I've never used it.

[moab_dan]

I have looked through this whole thread and can't find the schematic for seas center.
I am sure the blurred vision has a lot to do with it 8O
Could someone point me to the right post?

Thanx
Dan

[---k---]

Just looking at the summary thread, you may be right. The original plan was to use the RS28 tweeter. The Seas tower version likely got added in response to requests. I guess no one asked for a Seas center.

The RS28 is a great tweeter when used right. Any reason you're looking for the Seas version?

[Jim Holtz]

Hey guys,

I have the Seas 27TBFC/G version of the center that Dennis designed. If someone wants it, email me and I'll send it to them in a zip file.

Jim

[moab_dan]

Sorry for the late reply
I have several of the 27tdfc already on hand.


Dan

[ElDiabolo]

Hello,

I want to build the RS Center, which crossover is the best? Price / performance is crucial!

[---k---]

All are good. Since Dennis Murphy took the measurements and built it, I'm going to recommend his crossover.

[Guiria]

I've looked high and low for a well documented 3-way Dayton RS center channel build and I'm so excited to have found the site. I almost went with Zaph Audio's ZDT3C center but after finding this configuration I had to try it out.

I ordered up the parts last week, using Dennis' crossover. I've built a couple DIY designs in the past and this build seems pretty straight forward.

My only concern is that my yamaha HTR-5960 might not handle the 4 ohm load very well. My mains are DIY bookshelves that are 6 ohms nominal and my yamaha runs those just fine, adding a 4 ohm center however...I guess we'll find out :) The majority of the time I'm watching a movie at -20 db reference anyways so my initial thoughts are I'll be fine unless I really crank it.

I'm just glad to see the variety of well documented DIY designs here at htguide, nice work everyone.

[stgdz]

Is this design considered an 8 or 4ohm load?

[ThomasW]

There are 2- 8 ohm woofers wired in parallel, that makes for a 'nominal' 4 ohm load