Dayton RS WMTW Center & TMWW Mains

[Dennis Murphy]

Dennis, humor me a minute, would increasing or decreasing the resistor cause the irritating glare in the 2500 Hz range? I'm thinking that might be what I'm hearing when I don't use the additional 1 db of padding. With the additional padding in I don't notice the irritating glare, but the with the stock crossover I hear it. It's too bad I have to remove the midrange to get at my crossovers or I'd play around with some small changes to that resistor.
Brian

Did you hear the same glare on Jim H's speakers?

[Brian Walter]

Dennis, no I didn't hear the same glare om Jim's speakers, but we aren't using all the same parts, there could be some minor variation in part values; I know he used a different gage shunt coil, so that could make a difference. Additionally, it isn't apparent on all recordings, so unless I was to have his sitting in my room to compare with, song for song, it wouldn't be a fair comparison.

I'm in the process of measuring and swaping parts right now. I just stopped before making the first swap to see if you replied as to whether I should try a larger or smaller shunt resistor as it could save me some assembly and disassembly if I knew which to try first. I'll let you know how it comes out.

Brian

[Brian Walter]

Dennis,

I measured and swapped and measured and swapped shunt resistors and really didn't see any difference in the response graph or hear any significant difference. I finally gave up and sat and listened to a variety of music and decided something was seriously wrong. Then all of a sudden I figured it out. :oops: My crappy center channel was playing. Switch back to stereo and wow, what a difference. The speakers definitely sound better without the extra 1 db of tweeter padding I had previously used. I should have trusted your crossover design from the start. I guess I just needed to get used to the sound of the speakers and probably let them break in a little as well. It's too late to listen any more tonight, but I think I'm finally a happy camper.

Brian

[chasw98]

Yaaayyyy!!! Brian! I am glad you figured it out. Now we need to take up a fund to get you a center channel. I wonder which one you should build? Hmmmm, let me think about it.........

[Brian Walter]

Yaaayyyy!!! Brian! I am glad you figured it out. Now we need to take up a fund to get you a center channel. I wonder which one you should build? Hmmmm, let me think about it.........

Talk about feeling like an idiot, when I realized the center channel was playing, I felt really stupid. I had just finished my sub Thursday night before heading for the Iowa DIY and had been playing around with the set up to get the sub configured and somehow or another I ended up with a 5 channel configuration which obviously used the center channel. I could blame it on my wife changing things while I was gone, but I'm sure it was me.

As far as the center channel goes, I think I might wait for Jon Marsh to finish his CC design with the RS 180's, RS52 and whatever tweeter. I've already got the RS180's and I won a pair of RS52's in Iowa, so all I need is a tweeter, a cabinet and a crossover. I can remedy the tweeter and cabinet pretty quickly, but the crossover might take awhile if I was to do it. If I knew for certain what tweeter Jon was going to use, I'd probably buy it and build the cabinet so I'd be ready.

Brian

[Dougie085]

Well you could still build the cabinet! Chances are it'll be between .75-1.0 cu/ft I'm sure its 1.0 like most of the other 3 way centers.

[chasw98]

Brian:
I was under the impression that you took your 3 ways to the Iowa DIY and heard them alongside Jim's 3 ways and that is where you heard the difference. Did you take yours to Iowa?

Chuck

[Dennis Murphy]

[QUOTE=chasw98]Brian:
I was under the impression that you took your 3 ways to the Iowa DIY and heard them alongside Jim's 3 ways and that is where you heard the difference. Did you take yours to Iowa?

He did take them to Iowa, and thought they had less "sparkle" than some of the other speakers. That would be explained by the extra tweeter padding he used. The subsequent and frustrating home-listening experience he had involved the uninvited center channel. Anyhow--I'm glad this appears to have had a happy ending. I really wasn't anxious to encourage changes in the basic crossover, because it's so easy to screw things up.

[Brian Walter]

Dennis,

One of the other reasons I had asked about the value of the shunt resistor is that I had been using a Dale inductive (I assume) resistor in that position because when I first built the crossover, I received the wrong value resistors from Madisound and used what I had on hand. I ordered a bunch of additional resistors afterwords and never got around to putting the correct resistor in. So I thought this might be a good time to experiment. I am now using a 10 ohm Eagle metal oxide resistor in place of the Dale. I selected a couple of resistors that measured out to be about 9.8 ohms, this should compensate for the additional 0.2 ohms or so greater resistance of my 18 GA 1.2 HM inductor. In my testing I varied the value of the shunt resistor from 9 ohms to about 11 ohms and didn't really see any appreciable difference in the summed response. I never tried measuring just the tweeter response.

Thanks again for all your effort with these and other speakers, the crossover challenged builders really appreciate your efforts.

Brian Walter

[Dennis Murphy]

Hi I went back to my lspCAD file and simulted the effect of different resistor values in the tweeter shunt circuit. It really doesn't make much doo da. That's probably because the inductor value is so high. I chose 10 ohms because it produced the most symmetrical reverse null--it's really hard to see any change in the frequency response for resistor values from 8-12 ohms. Thanks for the kind words, Brian. I know this has been a frustrating experience for you. Loudspeakers are complicated. There are so many things that can go wrong, and such different listening tastes, sometimes I'm surprised we ever come up with designs that have a fairly wide appeal.

[m1ke323]

Well guys, I finished staining my speakers and installed the drivers tonight. I am listening to them as we speak. :D They are a night and day difference from my klipsh.

I found out a few things as I triple checked my wiring and XO's before I fired them up for the second time. Previously I started a thread about my blown RS28 tweeter when I did a test run with just one speaker. I found the source of the problem. I made my wiring inside the cablnet perfectionistly neat, but in doing so I made a mistake. I accidently switched my mid and tweeter wire sets as they ran up the cabinet, so when the tweeter blew it was because it was hooked up to the mid XO and the mid was hooked up to the tweeter XO.

I still haven't clear coated the cabinets, installed the feet, or installed the speaker grills so I was going to hold off on posting pictures until they are looking their best.

I am going to enjoy the speakers for a few hours now, I can post my impressions later.

Mike

[ThomasW]

Sorry but you know the rule, no pictures posted = no project was built..... ;)

[dynamowhum]

Your a hard man Will Sonnet.

[ThomasW]

Your a hard man Will Sonnet.It's called "tough love" ....... :B

[ssabripo]

this thread is sorely missing pics as of late! :B :P

c'mon people, less talk, more pics! :lol:

[m1ke323]

If you insist, here are a two shots I just took. Keep in mind they aren't done. The speaker grill in the first picture is just a prototype grill, not the final grill.

Also the color is more realistic in the first picture, the second picture is overexposed making it look lighter.


Here are the things I have to do yet:

3 coat of poly
Install spikes
Install terminal plate after poly has dried
Install plugs to hold speaker grills
Finish the speaker grills

http://aycu06.webshots.com/image/5805/2001937370885835706_rs.jpg http://aycu06.webshots.com/image/6285/200198024726303049_rs.jpg

[ThomasW]

Okay now we believe you...... :T :B

[Dougie085]

Those look AWESOME! even though they aren't finished still :)

[technimac]

Beauties!!! :T :T :T

Gotta love curved-sided speakers. :D

Take a bow, Mike :thanku:

Cheers, Bruce

[WillyD]

Those are beautiful Mike!

[chasw98]

Those look beautiful! How do they sound to you? Excellent job on the cabinets.

[ssabripo]

geezus A christ, you guys have some major skills!!! ;x( ;x(

great job man! You, Chuck, and the others around here are just outstanding wood workers and finishers. :E

:T

[Brian Walter]

Mike, those look mighty nice. You'll have to invite everyone over to admire them and to have a listen when they are complete. I like the deep color of the first photo, what stain did you use?

Brian Walter

[jkrueger]

I have some questions about this design. I am pretty sure they have not been asked before. Things feel pretty thorough and many of you seem to have already completed this build. If I should ask in the regular forum please let me know.

I was looking at the Selah Audio Peridot kit and I realized that I had seen it before. One of the reasons that I haven't pulled the trigger on this three way is the depth of the ported cabinet.....My question is can I invert the tweeter and the mid? With the mid on top, I could build a taller speaker with less depth that would still have the same volume. I have stupid placement issues but I would love to have full range sound. I would much prefer a speaker that is 48 inches tall than 21 inches deep.

Thanks for your help.

Let me know if I should ask somewhere else

Jon

[jonathanb3478]

...My question is can I invert the tweeter and the mid? With the mid on top, I could build a taller speaker with less depth that would still have the same volume.


The thing is, a specific baffle layout causes certain frequency response issues due to defraction. The issues caused by the exact layout in the RS TMWW are, to as great an extent as possible, corrected for by each of the crossover designs that use the RS TMWW layout.

Swaping the tweeter and mid positions would create a different set of response issues. The crossover would still be attempting to correct for the original issues, however.

In short, not a good idea.

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jon,

Some thoughts. The RS 3-way driver configuration should not be altered as Jonathon pointed out. The crossover and voicing are designed for that driver configuration and spacing. RS225's take a very large cabinet when used ported. I find them to work exceptionally well for music sealed which allows for a much smaller enclosure at the expense of some of the bottom octave. If you want gut slamin bass below 40 Hz. you need a sub.

I've worked with Rick on many designs including the line arrays pictured in my avatar. The Peridot is a step up, IMHO, from the RS 3-ways. The RS series drivers are real over achievers and I think the RS225's Vs the L22's are a toss up. That said, there is a reason the Excel W15 costs nearly 5 times as much as the RS150. The RS150 is very comparable to the L15 but the W15 will be more refined. Same goes for the Ribbon Vs the 27TBFC/G tweeter. I'm a ribbon lover so FWIW. :D


The RS 3-ways are an incredibly nice speaker at a bargain price but IMHO, the Peridot will offer better mids and highs because of the driver difference. If you have a space issue, it'd be easier to build the Peridot cabinet a little taller and shallower while keeping the ribbon height at 39" and driver spacing the same.

Selecting speakers always comes down to trade offs and choices of what meets your needs best.

HTH

Jim

I have some questions about this design. I am pretty sure they have not been asked before. Things feel pretty thorough and many of you seem to have already completed this build. If I should ask in the regular forum please let me know.

I was looking at the Selah Audio Peridot kit and I realized that I had seen it before. One of the reasons that I haven't pulled the trigger on this three way is the depth of the ported cabinet.....My question is can I invert the tweeter and the mid? With the mid on top, I could build a taller speaker with less depth that would still have the same volume. I have stupid placement issues but I would love to have full range sound. I would much prefer a speaker that is 48 inches tall than 21 inches deep.

Thanks for your help.

Let me know if I should ask somewhere else

Jon

[jkrueger]

Is there another way, without a subwoofer, to reduce the depth of the speaker, and still get down low? Can I add an inch to baffle width? That would give me at least two inches off the back. I understand that the level of detail that has gone into design is very high, but when you say not a good idea....Honestly....is it the kind of "not a good idea" that anyone would notice, or is it just "theoretically" not a good idea?


Jon

*Its early. Took me a while to see that I should have been slower on the draw. Thanks for the opinion Jim*

[Dennis Murphy]

Hi Moving the drivers around is both a theoretical and practical no-no. There will be a major effect on the frequency response and phase integration. Adding to the baffle width is a closer call. That will change the tweeter response slightly due to different diffraction patterns, and you could end up with a small peak or dip where there shouldn't be one. But I don't know that it would be all that audible. So of the two mods you suggest, I would definitely go with the baffle width. Or run it sealed, as Jim suggests.

[jonathanb3478]

So of the two mods you suggest, I would definitely go with the baffle width.


Just out of curiosity, and a desire to help the poster build a pair that are not as deep, what if you increased the width of the baffle by 1.5", but switched to a rediculous 1.5" roundover from the specified 3/4"? This would keep the perfectly flat portion of the front baffle width the same, but the internal dimensions could be much larger. Does this approach help at all, vs adding an inch and keeping the 3/4" roundovers?

Just a thought. www.mlcswoodworking.com sells a 1.5" roundover bit for $53:

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_rndvr.html

[Curt C]

A 1 ½” round over is not ridiculous at all, -but when modeling it in the BDS, it did little to compensate for the suggested added width. I wouldn’t necessarily apply it to an existing design without confirming the response, but it would likely provide somewhat better imaging.

One could reduce the cabinet depth by changing the box design to appear trapezoidal from the top. That is, make the rear baffle wider, and angle the side out to meet it. This would leave the basic diffraction effects of the front baffle essentially unaltered.

OTOH, for best soundstage depth, the speaker should be out from the wall 3 feet or so anyway, so in most cases I wouldn’t consider the existing depth as a detriment to the design.

C

[Jim Holtz]

A 1 ½” round over is not ridiculous at all, -but when modeling it in the BDS, it did little to compensate for the suggested added width. I wouldn’t necessarily apply it to an existing design without confirming the response, but it would likely provide somewhat better imaging.

One could reduce the cabinet depth by changing the box design to appear trapezoidal from the top. That is, make the rear baffle wider, and angle the side out to meet it. This would leave the basic diffraction effects of the front baffle essentially unaltered.

OTOH, for best soundstage depth, the speaker should be out from the wall 3 feet or so anyway, so in most cases I wouldn’t consider the existing depth as a detriment to the design.

C

Hi Curt,

Not to hijack the thread but since we're talking about cabinet configurations, I was wondering if your Exclamation! design could be built in a more conventional cabinet?

Thanks!

Jim

[Curt C]

Hi Jim,

You mean substitute a duodecahedron for the sphere? A capital idea! -And one that could be done on the table saw, for sure… ;^) That would result in an interesting look, don't you think?

Oh, wait…. You probably mean a rectangular tower design, don’t you?
-Unfortunately, we’d have to reinvent the wheel, should we do that.

For those who wonder what the Exclamations! are, I’ve attached a preliminary drawing.
Dual RS225’s, RS180, RS28.

C

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim,

You mean substitute a duodecahedron for the sphere? A capital idea! -And one that could be done on the table saw, for sure… ;^) That would result in an interesting look, don't you think?

Oh, wait…. You probably mean a rectangular tower design, don’t you?
-Unfortunately, we’d have to reinvent the wheel, should we do that.

For those who wonder what the Exclamations! are, I’ve attached a preliminary drawing.
Dual RS225’s, RS180, RS28.

C

Duodecahedron what??? Isn't that something you go to the doctor for? :D

Actually, I expected that to be the answer. Now, if we can just figure out how to make them darn balls. :roll:

They sure do image nice...

Jim

[atm98]

A 1 ½” round over is not ridiculous at all, -but when modeling it in the BDS, it did little to compensate for the suggested added width. I wouldn’t necessarily apply it to an existing design without confirming the response, but it would likely provide somewhat better imaging.



Curt,
Can you please expand a little on your statement, "it did little to compensate for the suggested added width?" What effect did you see from the added width?

I am thinking about using 1/4" oak veneer plywood to cover the MDF on the sides and top. Its cheaper then veneer. However, it will require the baffle to be 1/2" wider.

I already have the boxes made and holes cut. So there is no redesigning at this point. I just need to finish cut and roundover the baffle's edges.


Thanks.
Austin

[Brian Bunge]

A 1/2" change in width is will have minimal affect on the response of the speaker, IMHO. It might be a measureable difference, but I doubt there'd be any audible difference.

[Brian Walter]

Some of you may remember way back, when I complained that with my RS TMWW's, on the Eagle's Farewell Tour DVD, the song Peaceful Easy Feeling sounded wrong to me :confused: . It sounded like Glen Fry was too far away from his microphone. I know that I said my old speakers didn't sound like that, at least not to the same degree. Well, I think I've figured out pretty much what's going on :D .

When my brother was over this evening listening to my new subwoofer I was commenting about the big null I had at around 50 Hz in the listening position and how I pretty much solved that by repositioning my sub. About then my brother asked if maybe a similar condition was the cause of the odd sound I was getting on the Eagle's song. To make a long story short, we found that by repositioning the speakers, Glen Fry's voice became more pronounced and clearer. After more playing around it became obvious that the problem is clearly related to the room and speaker position. I haven't been able to totally solve the problem, but at least now I know where to look. I know that part of what I'm hearing is related to the recording, as I heard some of the same sound on Jim Holtz's line arrays, but not to the degree I was hearing it at home.

So I guess now that I've got my speakers working correctly, it's time to fix the room and/or layout of everything.

Brian Walter

[ssabripo]

Hi Jim,

You mean substitute a duodecahedron for the sphere? A capital idea! -And one that could be done on the table saw, for sure… ;^) That would result in an interesting look, don't you think?

Oh, wait…. You probably mean a rectangular tower design, don’t you?
-Unfortunately, we’d have to reinvent the wheel, should we do that.

For those who wonder what the Exclamations! are, I’ve attached a preliminary drawing.
Dual RS225’s, RS180, RS28.

C

WHOA!!!! :E ;x(

[swithey]

Hi everyone,

I'm finally making some progress on my Dayton LCR towers using the "Brian Walter" curved design (great design Brian). And thanks m1ke323 for sending me the brace template -- that really made them easy to make!

Here's how they look today. They are built out of 3/4" 13-ply Baltic Birch plywood. I have (2) layers of 3/8" bendable ply applied on one side of each speaker. I'm waiting for my 3/8" felt to arrive so I can get that installed before I attach the other side. The tops/bottoms still need to be trimmed up but I'll do that once I get the other sides applied.

Overall -- I'm very pleased with the results so far.

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-OneSideOn-sm.JPG

[atm98]

http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/55/55/7/51/12/2341751120098933787wIkjkM_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2341751120098933787wIkjkM)
http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/57/557/2/71/26/2724271260098933787MOfwgB_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2724271260098933787MOfwgB)
http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/59/59/0/5/26/2728005260098933787MXqNjO_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2728005260098933787MXqNjO)
http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/57/157/4/78/61/2759478610098933787uIpSVj_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2759478610098933787uIpSVj)
http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/57/657/2/23/74/2838223740098933787QkUkrX_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2838223740098933787QkUkrX)
http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/14/14/1/85/14/2702185140098933787xNtRjP_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2702185140098933787xNtRjP)
http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/10/11/5/96/42/2102596420098933787ZvnVqq_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2102596420098933787ZvnVqq)
http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/10/10/8/73/27/2575873270098933787EqLilA_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2575873270098933787EqLilA)
http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/53/553/6/92/44/2010692440098933787JcnWNV_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2010692440098933787JcnWNV)
http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/42/42/4/97/39/2731497390098933787msxAnZ_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2731497390098933787msxAnZ)
http://thumb7.webshots.net/t/57/157/0/90/80/2165090800098933787RYnerv_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2165090800098933787RYnerv)

Hi Everyone, This project is my first build, and I am hooked. I wanted to post a few pictures to show my progress. I still have to do a final assembly and veneer.

Full listening impressions will come later. So far they sound great. I don’t want to say too much yet as I only have 12 hours on them and I can’t get the wife out of the house long enough to do full testing. But I have noticed that placement is very critical.

Questions and comments welcome. I will have questions myself after I do some serious listening & testing.

Thanks to all the guys who come up with these designs. You work is not unnoticed.

Austin

[Brian Walter]

Hi everyone,

I'm finally making some progress on my Dayton LCR towers using the "Brian Walter" curved design (great design Brian). And thanks m1ke323 for sending me the brace template -- that really made them easy to make!

Here's how they look today. They are built out of 3/4" 13-ply Baltic Birch plywood. I have (2) layers of 3/8" bendable ply applied on one side of each speaker. I'm waiting for my 3/8" felt to arrive so I can get that installed before I attach the other side. The tops/bottoms still need to be trimmed up but I'll do that once I get the other sides applied.

Overall -- I'm very pleased with the results so far.



Sorry I haven't checked this thread out for a while, but you do nice work. I sure hope you like the speakers as well as I do. I know I had some problems with mine at first, (all my fault) but the more I listen to them, the better I like them. I think you'll like having the extra woofer volume you get by utilizing the space behind the midrange. I just hope the shallow depth behind the midrange doesn't allow too much backwave to mess up the sound of the midrange. I made that mistake once on a set of speakers, that's why I put so much depth and volume into the midrange compartment. I wanted to absorb as much of the backwave as possible.

Keep up the good work and be sure to post more pictures, we like pictures.

Brian Walter

[swithey]

Brian -- well your timing if impeccable. I was concerned about the backwave as was well but after talking with some experts, it should not be an issue (especially with the felt -- see below) :

I opted to use pressed felt to really deaden the cabinet. Felt has been used for years inside speakers with great result. I bought it from a place called Southerland Felt (http://www.sutherlandfelt.com/pressed.htm). This stuff is not cheap. 3 yards shipped was about $220. I shopped around and they where about 1/2 the cost of everyone else. NOTE -- I still will need to add normal absorbtion inside the speakers.

Here is the raw roll. It's really thick (3/8”) and heavy (3 yards x 61” wide was about 30lbs).
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-OnRoll1.JPG


Here is a close-up so you can see the thickness of the felt.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-CloseUp.JPG


Here are all the pieces cut up and ready to be installed in the speaker cabinet. A sharp blade and a straight edge was all that was needed to cut this stuff (you'll need to change your blade pretty often). It was easy work but just a little time consuming. It took me about 2 1/2 hours to get all the pieces cut. I probably used about 95% of the 3 yards.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-AllCut2.JPG


Here is the felt installed in 2 of the 3 speakers. It was attached with 3M 77 spray glue. You'll need to coat the wood and the wool for a good bond. I plan to get the 3rd one completed on Friday eve.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-2felted.JPG

Here is a close-up up the mid/tweet box.
http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/Felt-MidTweetBox.JPG

The goal is to get the other side attached this weekend and hopefully get some preliminary listening done early next week.

[ThomasW]

Yep that's the good stuff..... :T

It's likely you'll only need a small amount of additional damping.

[Brian Walter]

Steve, while you've still got good access to the inside you should drill your holes or whatever you plan to do for wiring up the midrange and tweeter. I forgot with mine and had reach through the speaker cutouts to drill the holes my wires. I didn't really admit it did that did I?

I see three speakers in the photo's, how many are you making?

Keep up the good work and enjoy the process, it can be almost as much fun as listening to the the finished product.

Brian Walter

[swithey]

Steve, while you've still got good access to the inside you should drill your holes or whatever you plan to do for wiring up the midrange and tweeter. I forgot with mine and had reach through the speaker cutouts to drill the holes my wires. I didn't really admit it did that did I?

I see three speakers in the photo's, how many are you making?

Keep up the good work and enjoy the process, it can be almost as much fun as listening to the the finished product.

Brian Walter
It is funny that you mentioned "the holes” because I almost forgot them myself. I did drill a hole in the bottom back of the mid/tweet box for wires -- so we're good to go. It is hidden by the felt but still accessible.

I only plan to built (3) of them - for LCR duty. I'm using an acoustically transparent screen to hide the center channel but the left and right will be on either side of the screen. I've already completed the DIY bi-pole sides and direct radiating rear surrounds.

I've have had fun building them but am ready to start enjoying them.

[spmachina77]

swithney, what bipole side speakers did you build???

I'm just about to finish up my LCR's and am looking for surrounds to match them?

as far as damping material, i've got 2" think fiberglass for the woofers and regular poly fill for the mids/tweets.

Would you guys say that a I should layer everything in the woofer enclose with the 2" think fiberglass, or is this a bit much? I was thinking everything exept leaving the crossovers open.

[swithey]

swithney, what bipole side speakers did you build???

I'm just about to finish up my LCR's and am looking for surrounds to match them?
I do not want to clutter up this thread with info not related to the Dayton LCRs. Check out these links for more info: Link 1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8175115&&#post8175115), Link 2 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8526624&&#post8526624)

[ifeliciano]

swithney, what bipole side speakers did you build???

I'm just about to finish up my LCR's and am looking for surrounds to match them?



It's been covered in this thread before..... :T

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=266756&postcount=916

http://www.htguide.com/forum/search.php4?searchid=489108

[swithey]

The speakers are finally assembled. In their current state, they each weigh in at 52 ½ lbs. Hopefully I'll have drivers in them by Wed so I can test 'em out :)

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-Assembled.JPG

[Mazeroth]

Those look incredible, Steve!

[WillyD]

Fantastic work, Steve!

[baniels]

First of all let me say that this is a wonderful thread. And great work (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22393) by rumatt in summarizing it.

The TMWW towers are my next project. I can't wait to begin. I've been playing around with the design in this thread in Sketchup. Perhaps I got a little ahead of myself, as I modeled Dawaro's (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=254705#post254705) cabinet before reading about the benefits of having the deeper mid enclosure.

I changed my model to have the upper bracing of these plans (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=254705#post254705) from Mr.Cabinetry.

In doing so I noticed that the overall depth of the cabinet in Dawaro's modified design is 12.25 inches, and that of Mr.Cabinetry's is 11.75 inches.

Does this half inch make much of a difference? It'd be about 5.4 liters for the mid. I haven't calculated the overall volume for the woofers.

I'm new to this. I just want some confirmation that I'm not making any mistakes or overlooking some element.
The attached image shows 3 views of my design which is essentially Dawaro's modified sealed cabinet, with the addition of Mr.Cabinetry's mid enclosure - and a rear access panel.

Please take a look. I'd appreciate a green, yellow or red light from any of the many experts here.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/Three-View.jpg

[Jim Holtz]

First of all let me say that this is a wonderful thread. And great work (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22393) by rumatt in summarizing it.

The TMWW towers are my next project. I can't wait to begin. I've been playing around with the design in this thread in Sketchup. Perhaps I got a little ahead of myself, as I modeled Dawaro's (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=254705#post254705) cabinet before reading about the benefits of having the deeper mid enclosure.

I changed my model to have the upper bracing of these plans (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=254705#post254705) from Mr.Cabinetry.

In doing so I noticed that the overall depth of the cabinet in Dawaro's modified design is 12.25 inches, and that of Mr.Cabinetry's is 11.75 inches.

Does this half inch make much of a difference? It'd be about 5.4 liters for the mid. I haven't calculated the overall volume for the woofers.

I'm new to this. I just want some confirmation that I'm not making any mistakes or overlooking some element.
The attached image shows 3 views of my design which is essentially Dawaro's modified sealed cabinet, with the addition of Mr.Cabinetry's mid enclosure - and a rear access panel.

Please take a look. I'd appreciate a green, yellow or red light from any of the many experts here.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/Three-View.jpg

Hi Ben,

I'm no expert but I did build this design. Here's the cut list I put together for the sealed version utilizing a 1.25" thick front baffle.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php4?attachmentid=5690

I see you're from Iowa. I am also. I live in the Des Moines area. Currently, I have the Modula M/T (Seas version) , Natalie P's, RS 3-ways (WWMT) (Seas version), Omegarrays by Selah audio (pictured in my avatar) and a monitor sized 3-way that Rick Craig developed for me called the JH3 Reference in house. Yes, I do need to sell some speakers. Actually, I need to sell a lot of speakers. :roll:

If you'd like to hear what the Rs 3-ways sound like before you build them, send me an email.

Welcome to HT Guide Forum!

Jim

[baniels]

Jim,

I'm in Fairfield - just under two hours from Des Moines. Keep me posted on future Iowa DIY audio gatherings. I got into the game just in time to miss the last one.

Am I causing any issues by making the cabinet deeper, as per Dawaro's design? I figured that the output of the woofers would benefit by the added volume. Is this correct?

Is there any disadvantage to having the tweeter in the same enclosure space as the woofers? I've seen a few variations in this thread, and am having trouble choosing which elements to incorporate into my design. I've heard solid arguments for having a deeper mid enclosure, but not as to why one would, or would not, encapsulate the tweeter within it.

Thanks

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,

I'm in Fairfield - just under two hours from Des Moines. Keep me posted on future Iowa DIY audio gatherings. I got into the game just in time to miss the last one.

Am I causing any issues by making the cabinet deeper, as per Dawaro's design? I figured that the output of the woofers would benefit by the added volume. Is this correct?

Is there any disadvantage to having the tweeter in the same enclosure space as the woofers? I've seen a few variations in this thread, and am having trouble choosing which elements to incorporate into my design. I've heard solid arguments for having a deeper mid enclosure, but not as to why one would, or would not, encapsulate the tweeter within it.

Thanks

Hi Ben,

Making a sealed enclosure larger for the woofers will lower the alignment. A .707 is considered the flattest while a larger enclosure will slightly extend the bass. Personally, I like between a .6 - .7 alignment. The 66 liter cabinet specified in the cut list I created and linked you to should be around a .7 alignment for (2) RS225's. 100 liters works well for a ported enclosure.

The mid enclosure however needs to be large enough and deep enough to kill the backwaves but there isn't any alignment for bass involved since it's only doing mid range duty. 5 1/2 - 6 liters is fine for the RS150. I'm assuming you're lining the cabinets and sub-enclosures with foam or fiberglass to kill the backwaves. That is very important.

The tweeter can share space with either the woofers or the mid. It makes no difference as long as it's sealed well. I believe Jon advocates a small separate enclosure for the tweeter to eliminate any possibility of leakage but I can't say I've ever had a problem with a tweeter leaking. It wouldn't hurt though. No volume requirement of course since a tweeter is sealed to start with.

Doug, Jason and I decided to hold the 2006 DIY event when it appeared that no one else was going to. It was a very good time with good attendance and a fair number of speakers. The cost of holding these continues to escalate so it's a real crap shoot whether you can break even or not. We just barely made it this year with about 28 people at $10 each to attend. I would also have liked to seen more speakers there. I had 3 enter personally. Without my three, we'd have been short in some of the classes. We'll see what next year brings. I keep trying to go back to attendee status but I haven't made it yet. :W

Jim

[baniels]

Is the 66 liters meant to be for the woofers only, or is that a gross volume, before deducting for the mid enclosure?

I'd like to hit the .7 alignment, and I'd like to have the mid in its own, deeper, enclosure. The tweeter will be with the woofers.

Was Dawaro's modified design deeper because of the volume taken away from the woofers by enclosing the mid and tweeter together?

[Jim Holtz]

Is the 66 liters meant to be for the woofers only, or is that a gross volume, before deducting for the mid enclosure?

I'd like to hit the .7 alignment, and I'd like to have the mid in its own, deeper, enclosure. The tweeter will be with the woofers.

Was Dawaro's modified design deeper because of the volume taken away from the woofers by enclosing the mid and tweeter together?

Ben,

66 liters is a gross volume for the sealed version which accounts for the mid enclosure.

I can't answer your question about Dawaro's enclosure. His was originally designed as a ported cabinet rather than sealed so that could be the differences we're talking about. Ported (2) RS225's require 110-120 liters net depending on tuning.

Jim

[baniels]

Can you tell me what the net would be for the woofers?

Ben,

66 liters is a gross volume for the sealed version which accounts for the mid enclosure.

I can't answer your question about Dawaro's enclosure. His was originally designed as a ported cabinet rather than sealed so that could be the differences we're talking about. Ported (2) RS225's require 110-120 liters net depending on tuning.

Jim

[Ray_D]

Ben

If you would download a free copy of Unibox you could try all of these scenarios yourself and see the real difference. It's terrific.

Ray

[Ray_D]

Oops!

I forgot to post the link.

http://home20.inet.tele.dk/kou/ubmodel.html

[Jim Holtz]

Can you tell me what the net would be for the woofers?

Ben,

Sealed is so flexible that you can ballpark the volume consumed by the drivers. If I remember correctly, I added about 3-4 liters for drivers. A few liters one way or another won't make any difference, unlike ported which should be right on.

Jim

[dawaro]

Is the 66 liters meant to be for the woofers only, or is that a gross volume, before deducting for the mid enclosure?

I'd like to hit the .7 alignment, and I'd like to have the mid in its own, deeper, enclosure. The tweeter will be with the woofers.

Was Dawaro's modified design deeper because of the volume taken away from the woofers by enclosing the mid and tweeter together?

My design was simply based off of the test enclosures that were used to design the xover. The boxes were as simple as I could make them. I figured the one thing that most people tend to change when building a design is the enclosure, as you can see from the variations in the thread, so there was no sense in getting elaborate.
My original drawings were also for a ported woofer section.

The enclosures I ended up building used a piece of schedule 160 PCV pipe the length of the entire enclosure for the mid enclosure.

[Evil Twin]

The speakers are finally assembled. In their current state, they each weigh in at 52 ½ lbs. Hopefully I'll have drivers in them by Wed so I can test 'em out :)

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-Assembled.JPG



Very good.... most impressive work!

[swithey]

I have 2 out of 3 completed. They are wired up and throwing out sound on all drivers. No critique on them yet because it was late last night when I got them assembled. I'll give them a listen tonight. The weight of these things with the drivers installed is unbelievable (~75lbs). I'm glad I decided to assemble them in the HT :D

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-DriversInstalled1.JPG http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/LCR-DriversInstalled2.JPG

[cobbpa]

The cabinets for my towers & center are built. I'm near the foam placing portion of assembly and need some advice. I have twelve 12" squares of 2" pyramid foam & 12 squares of 3" pyramid foam. What would be the best configuration of these pieces into the 3 boxes? I could end up having more 2" pieces, but that has yet to be seen. I am planning on each woofer having a piece of 3" behind it and a piece of the 3" in the mid enclosure as well. It's the shallow enclosure so I want to be sure I have enough foam / stuffing in there. Then I was thinking the 2" pieces could go on the sides of the towers & top / bottom of the woofer section in the center. I'll probably pick up some poly batting to line the walls not covered by foam. Ideas, configurations, critiques?

[digital desire]

Great thread. It only took me three nights to read it all!
I did not see any pics of the "boxy" style with grills.
They would be considered manditory in my house, unless I stock up on extra drivers.
Not having built in a while, would you go with a magnetic style or the plastic plug style, with I dunno, maybe 3/4 inch plywood frame?
Anyone have grill details?
Thanks!

[baniels]

I think I've finished my plans. I didn't make any major changes to the great plans laid out in this thread. My only noticeable revision was for the mid enclosure. I made it deeper, but I didn't extend it all the way... just long enough to hit 5.75 liters. All told, accounting for everything but the drivers and the crossover, the enclosure volume (for the woofers, I mean) is 61 liters, or 2.15 ft^3.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/th_LowerAngleView.jpg (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/LowerAngleView.jpg)http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/th_SideViewWithDimensions.jpg (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/SideViewWithDimensions.jpg)http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/th_RearUpperAngleView.jpg (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/RearUpperAngleView.jpg)
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/th_FrontViewWithDimensions.jpg (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/FrontViewWithDimensions.jpg)http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/th_BraceA.jpg (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/BraceA.jpg)http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/th_RearAccessPanel.jpg (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/RearAccessPanel.jpg)
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/th_MidEnclosureDimensions.jpg (http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Towers/MidEnclosureDimensions.jpg)


I don't have access to a wood shop at the moment, so I'll probably continue to obsess about the plans for a while; If any of you see any flaws, please let me know. I've done one sub before, but this will be my first go at DIY speakers.

Thanks!

[chasw98]

I have 2 out of 3 completed. They are wired up and throwing out sound on all drivers. No critique on them yet because it was late last night when I got them assembled. I'll give them a listen tonight. The weight of these things with the drivers installed is unbelievable (~75lbs). I'm glad I decided to assemble them in the HT :D



Hey, those look really nice! I am impressed! Wait till you have to start positioning them just right for the best sound and you try and move those babies an inch or two for the proper angle. I think mine are in the 75 pound range too.

Chuck

[chasw98]

Great thread. It only took me three nights to read it all!
I did not see any pics of the "boxy" style with grills.
They would be considered manditory in my house, unless I stock up on extra drivers.
Not having built in a while, would you go with a magnetic style or the plastic plug style, with I dunno, maybe 3/4 inch plywood frame?
Anyone have grill details?
Thanks!

I think Jim Holtz used magnets on his set. He embedded the magnets in the wood and then veneered over them so that they don't show if the grilles are off.

Chuck

[chasw98]

I think I've finished my plans. I didn't make any major changes to the great plans laid out in this thread. My only noticeable revision was for the mid enclosure. I made it deeper, but I didn't extend it all the way... just long enough to hit 5.75 liters. All told, accounting for everything but the drivers and the crossover, the enclosure volume (for the woofers, I mean) is 61 liters, or 2.15 ft^3.


I don't have access to a wood shop at the moment, so I'll probably continue to obsess about the plans for a while; If any of you see any flaws, please let me know. I've done one sub before, but this will be my first go at DIY speakers.

Thanks!

I would plan on dadoing the braces and the mid chamber into the sides and front and rear for strength and less resonance. Other than that your plans look great.

[baniels]

That's good advice, Chuck. How deep would you recommend the dadoing?

[Ray_D]

Ben

What is the purpose of the notches on the upper two shelf braces?

I don't agree that dadoing the braces is necessary for strength or that it will have any effect on "resonance." I would be interested in any data that supports a contrary position. I have built quite a few enclosures, most of which used butt joints satisfactorily.

Ray

[baniels]

The notches were there to allow the woofers' enclosure to "breath" into the tweeter area above. I wanted to seal the mid, but allow the woofers to have more volume than just that below the mid enclosure. The notches on the back are somewhat unnecessary, I think, but I was kind of fixated on hitting 61 liters for the woofer enclosure volume... even though that 61 liters is a rough guess.

[chasw98]

Ray
The notches are to allow the sound inside the enclosure to pass into the upper area behind the tweeter allowing the woofers to "see" the whole interior of the enclosure.

As far as dadoing for more strength and less resonance, my personal experience is that my cabinets built with dadoes seemed to be stronger and stiffer. In 3/4 material I used a 3/8 depth for the dado and rabbetted the corner joints. I built 4 modula M/T's and 1 pair I built, I used butt joints. The next pair I dadoed and they seemed to be deader than the first pair. Now I have nothing scientific to prove it and I may be wrong but it just seemed that way to me. Pmazz would be the one to ask as far as solid advice on that.

Chuck

[Ray_D]

Chuck

It seems to me it would be simpler to use the same sides for the mid and close it off with a panel on the rear and a hole to access the volume behind the tweeter. Or, put the tweeter in the same volume as the mid and rearrange the braces accordingly.

If strength is an issue I would not use MDF, which I have used for NatP, Modula MT and RS TMWW enclosures. I did use BB ply for my sub enclosure and in that case I did use stopped dadoes for the ladder braces.

Ben

If a person does not have any woodworking equipement he needs to keep things simple. These enclosures can be built with a router, drill and a circular saw and lots of clamps of course. More smaller clamps can be used if the sides overlap the front and back. Everything on the inside needs to be the same width which can be achieved by making a pattern and using the router and a flush trim bit to force all the inside pieces to the same width dimension. The front and back dimension is gotten similarly. The sides can be trimmed after. This is how I used to do it before I had a table saw.

Regards

Ray

[baniels]

Ben

If a person does not have any woodworking equipement he needs to keep things simple. These enclosures can be built with a router, drill and a circular saw and lots of clamps of course. More smaller clamps can be used if the sides overlap the front and back. Everything on the inside needs to be the same width which can be achieved by making a pattern and using the router and a flush trim bit to force all the inside pieces to the same width dimension. The front and back dimension is gotten similarly. The sides can be trimmed after. This is how I used to do it before I had a table saw.

Regards

Ray

Ray,

I was advised that between 5 1/2 and 6 liters was optimal for the mid enclosure. To encompass the tweeter within it would mean decreasing the depth - to such a degree that, as has been reported earlier in the thread, backwaves could be an issue.

I've got clamps, routers, and a circular saw - I just don't have a table saw yet (or a place to put it).

A friend of mine had a well-equipped shop with a table saw. I would use it, as I did on my recent sub project, but within a week or so he is moving, and renting out his house and shop. I'm pretty confident that the wind will blow something else my way here pretty soon. Fingers are crossed, anyhow.

[chasw98]

Chuck

It seems to me it would be simpler to use the same sides for the mid and close it off with a panel on the rear and a hole to access the volume behind the tweeter. Or, put the tweeter in the same volume as the mid and rearrange the braces accordingly.

If strength is an issue I would not use MDF, which I have used for NatP, Modula MT and RS TMWW enclosures. I did use BB ply for my sub enclosure and in that case I did use stopped dadoes for the ladder braces.



It is simpler and that is how I built mine. But it has been noted that you then have a shallower chamber front to back for the wave coming off the back of the midrange to bounce off of. With the chamber built the way Ben has described (and the way Jim Holtz built his) there is more distance between the back wall of the chamber and the midrange. How much difference does this make audibly when you build it? I don't know. Mine sound very good and I built them with the shallow chamber. My tweeter is also in the same chamber as the mid.

As far as MDF versus Baltic Birch, I have to agree that BB is stronger, but it is more expensive and harder to find in my area. Most people that have built these have used MDF and there has not been a problem with strength. It is also pretty easy to work with when your tools are limited. OTOH, most of the curved designs have used wood other than MDF.

Chuck

[digital desire]

I think Jim Holtz used magnets on his set. He embedded the magnets in the wood and then veneered over them so that they don't show if the grilles are off.

Chuck

Did he post pics of his?

[chasw98]

Yeah, they are in this thread somewhere. Do a search on grilles or look for posts by Jim Holtz. This thread has gone on so long and gotten so large that it is very hard to find things in it.

[Jim Holtz]

Did he post pics of his?

Actually, I haven't tried magnets yet. I make the grill out of 1/2" MDF and use the ball/socket retainers from PE. They're pretty easy to use and the grills come out nicely. Here's a link to the process I use. It's really pretty easy.

http://www.audiodiycentral.com/nt_grills.shtml

HTH

Jim

[digital desire]

Thanks Jim, that is more or less how the sub I have got its grill done.

Next question. How bad would it screw things up to re-arrange things `ala the raw acoustics ht8? Bad? I have not done the math to find out how deep the new cabinet would be. May not be possible. Just digging the look of the HT8's.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/raw-acoustics-ht-8-speakers-11-2006.html

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks Jim, that is more or less how the sub I have got its grill done.

Next question. How bad would it screw things up to re-arrange things `ala the raw acoustics ht8? Bad? I have not done the math to find out how deep the new cabinet would be. May not be possible. Just digging the look of the HT8's.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/raw-acoustics-ht-8-speakers-11-2006.html

Sorry, rearrange the drivers and you start over on the crossover.

Jim

[Eddie Horton]

Just ordered the Seas tweeters from Madisound and will get the rest of the drivers for the first two from PE tonight. Linked from here, of course. The crossovers will have to wait a couple of weeks, as I just bought a plunge router and table saw. Not to mention the soldering iron and various other toys. I was telling my wife how I could save so much by building my own, but it looks like I lied.

[Eddie Horton]

By the way, I'm having trouble when looking at the crossover schematic for the TMWW towers that use the BOM located in post #1060. The woofer net is shown with a 115uF cap, but the bom lists a 100uF cap. Also, what do the "inherent" values mean?

[chasw98]

By the way, I'm having trouble when looking at the crossover schematic for the TMWW towers that use the BOM located in post #1060. The woofer net is shown with a 115uF cap, but the bom lists a 100uF cap. Also, what do the "inherent" values mean?

The BOM also shows a 15uF cap that is paralleled with the 100uF cap to make 115uF.

In the crossover drawing "inherent" signifies the DC resistance of an inductor. If it less than an ohm, ignore it. All inductors have some resistance and the "inherent" values point out what resistance to expect. Sometimes crossovers are built and they specifiy what the DCR of an inductor is so that the circuit is perfectly tuned. HTH.

Chuck

[Eddie Horton]

Thanks a million, Chuck. I'm pretty handy with woodworking, but I've never built a crossover in my life, so this should be an adventure. Your speakers look great, by the way. I can see why Sherv likes your workshop.

[jonathanb3478]

I was advised that between 5 1/2 and 6 liters was optimal for the mid enclosure. To encompass the tweeter within it would mean decreasing the depth - to such a degree that, as has been reported earlier in the thread, backwaves could be an issue.

That was my thinking as well, but I just switched things up a bit to get more depth. I used non-parallel sides:

http://jonathanb3478.tripod.com/images/speaker/construction/progress1.jpg


That enclosure covers the tweeter and mid. It is also 10.5" deep, which should be plenty of space to use to damp the back wave. It does not put the airflow through tight spaces to get the volume in the top of the enclosure, either. At almost 7L, it is a bit larger than you are talking about. That doesn't make any meaningful difference, though.

But, I do have a table saw. I don't think it would be impossible to accomplish non parallel sides using beveled cuts with a circular saw. I don't have one though, so I wouldn't know for sure.

[JonMarsh]

Now THIS is a THREAD!!!! 46 pages!! Whoooo! ;)

~Jon

[Dougie085]

So it wasn't a thread with 45 pages??? :B

[jonathanb3478]

I upped my posts per page setting. I am much more comfortable with it being a 32 page thread. Please do not upset me by mentioning such high numbers as 45 and 46.

Very distressing.

:D

[bmowis]

Doing my part to add to the lenght of this thread, here's the center channel I built based on the WMTW design:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l31/bmowis/P2050065.jpg

Also, That's my DIY subwoofer to the left (The pulpit-looking thing), along with the Nat Ps I built a few months back... Sub is a Dayton 15" Hi Fi driver with 500W Bash amp.

I have a bit of a 'pine' theme going here, so I opted to make the Center Channel entirely out of 3/4" MDF, but with an extra pine layer in the front to make the baffle look a bit prettier.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l31/bmowis/P2050066.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l31/bmowis/P2050067.jpg

...please do your best to ignore the ugly wooden spacer that the CC is sitting on. The magnet in the unshielded tweeter for this design was wreaking havoc on my poor CRT TV, and the 3 or 4 extra inches the spacer provides seems to help. Ultimately, this room will be finished for HT. The TV will be gone, and a ceiling-mounted projector will take it's place!

Now for a quick question. I'm really thinking about building a pair of the WWMTs in this thread to pair with my WMTW center. Only thing is, I went the extra mile and built the center based on Jon's xover design...almost $400 in crossover parts alone.

So my question is: was it a little silly to use Jon Marsh's CC design if I plan on pairing it up with a couple of Dennis's WWMTs? I've heard good things about the towers - that's why I want to build them - but I also know that Jon goes the extra mile to surpress the breakup modes in the Dayton drivers with crazy crossovers, and he doesn't have an xover for the WWMTs.

...I think I might be answering my own question here. Perhaps I would have been just as well off to use Dennis's xover for the center channel since I am planning on using his for the WWMTs. Could've saved a good bit of money.

Anyway, thanks to Dennis and Jon Marsh and everybody who's contributed to this thread. My center channel sounds awesome!

Brad

[Eddie Horton]

Looks great, Brad. My Seas tweeters shipped from Madisound yesterday, and I already have the woofers and mids, so it's time to make some sawdust and get the first pair of towers built.

[dawaro]

Now for a quick question. I'm really thinking about building a pair of the WWMTs in this thread to pair with my WMTW center. Only thing is, I went the extra mile and built the center based on Jon's xover design...almost $400 in crossover parts alone.

So my question is: was it a little silly to use Jon Marsh's CC design if I plan on pairing it up with a couple of Dennis's WWMTs? I've heard good things about the towers - that's why I want to build them - but I also know that Jon goes the extra mile to surpress the breakup modes in the Dayton drivers with crazy crossovers, and he doesn't have an xover for the WWMTs.

Well Jon does have the measurement files for the WWMT, maybe if you ask him real nice he can modify what he has for the center for tower use.

[bmowis]

Well, I think I'll wait a bit before I ask him for anything. He's pretty busy with other stuff right now, I know.

Something else to consider is the fact that the center channel alone set me back $650+. Two more of those is a lot of money.

That will take time to save up for, anyway.

[spmachina77]

i'm going to order a .39mh, .17 ohm resistance 15 gauge inductor (in place of a .40mh, .3 ohm resistance 18gauge inductor).

this is DM's design the inductor is for the mid on the tower

will this make any audible difference, PE is out of the others

--------------------------------------
update: nevermind, I found a post in the middle of this thread about unwinding inductors

so I bought a .45mh inductor, and will just unwind it to get a .40 (the calculator here, http://www.lalena.com/Audio/Calculator/Inductor/) says that I need to go from 84 turns, to just 80 turns.....seems easy enough

[digital desire]

Dohh!
Never mind...

[digital desire]

Anyway, just pulled the trigger on these. Woodlawn is going to make some MDF sawdust on my behalf...
What should I order for lining the cabinets? I am getting the MDF work done for me, so the cabinets will be completed. Just roll some of the PE foam (1.5"? 2.5"?) into the mid box, and then acusta-stuff down in the bottom everywhere? Or, try and glue some dampining to the sides where I can reach, and still use acousta stuff?
Total so far, not including cabinets is $666. Adds up fast!

EDIT: I just found this thread on damping material for these things - which probably should be in this build thread somewhere:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=21098

[Prototrax]

Here's my router.........


http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5760/img2059mr1.jpg


m1ke323........I sent you a message......

[baniels]

Wow! What a setup! I envy you, sir.

Here's my router.........


http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5760/img2059mr1.jpg


m1ke323........I sent you a message......

[digital desire]

So when are you gonna start making kits?
NICE~!

[MrCabinetry]

I just finished these up for FryGuy, this is just one pic and the rest can be view per the link.

Towers (http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MrCabinetry/Speaker%20Towers/)

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MrCabinetry/Speaker%20Towers/108.jpg

[Dougie085]

WOW! Those are gorgeous!.......Wish there were someone around here to help me build those!

[digital desire]

There is always shipping. (Or a long drive!)
Cant wait for the next set!

VERY NICE PHIL!

[gimpy]

I think FryGuy will be very happy with those. (if not, ship them to me:)).

Frank

[crackyflipside]

Here's my router.........


http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5760/img2059mr1.jpg


m1ke323........I sent you a message......

Wow!! You could make a hell of a good business out of selling cabinet kits for the popular designs here. :T I have plenty of tools in my thousand square foot tool shed but definitely no CNC mill. ;x(

[Brian C.]

Here's my router.........


http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5760/img2059mr1.jpg


m1ke323........I sent you a message......

Another fellow machinist, I presume?? :T

I'll be machining my baffles and other bits on a Matsuura vertical. I'll just have to remember to turn the coolant off! :E

Frankly, I don't know what I'd do without a machine shop at my disposal...

[Fryguy]

I just finished these up for FryGuy, this is just one pic and the rest can be view per the link.

Towers (http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MrCabinetry/Speaker%20Towers/)

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MrCabinetry/Speaker%20Towers/108.jpg

I'll have some pictures of them up soon as well, in my theater. He delivered them to me yesterday (sunday afternoon for you weird timezone people). Unfortunately there was one very minor issue: The hole he drilled to allow me to route wire to my mid/tweet was a bit too small. And of course I didn't have a file handy, and a drill wouldn't fit in the cabinet (too much bracing).

Totally not a big deal though.

Then my drill batteries kept dying. So I've still got a couple of screws to go. Hopefully they'll be up later today (Monday night for you weird timezone people).

BTW, they look better in person IMO. Those pictures don't do them justice. Really.


PS. Which way should these be standing? Tweeters facing inward or tweeters facing outward? I seem to have seen it both ways. Is it a preference thing? Does it not matter?

[digital desire]

Fryguy, could you post pictures along the way of the population process, just for giggles if you would?
How/ what do you intend to use for damping for instance...

Tweeters inboard.

[Blaine]

Hi all, I'm new here. I read most of the thread on the MTMWW using the RS270, 180, and 28A drivers (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11873&page=1&pp=35), and I'm kind of wondering which of the two to build. I very much like both; obviously the MTMWW is bigger and more bucks... I'm wondering if any of you have any thoughts, or if you've heard both.

[digital desire]

I was considering heavily the mtmww until I saw a picture of Brian standing next to them. That one pic put the kabash on it for me, leaving the nat p's plus bass bins and active crossover + amp.
To keep it more simple for me I chose these. It is a compromise, and would really like to hear the nat p's set up like that in comparison, but I have an "audiophile" challanged HT area anyway, and may not make any difference. I like to turn it up LOUD sometimes, and I am sure the mtmww might be better in that regard.
But take anything I say with a huge grain of salt. I have not heard any of these yet!

[spmachina77]

guys....i'm way excited, its been about 8 weeks since i've started, i've had the center done for a month, and just finished my towers....really busy at the moment, so in a few days i'll put up some pics...

fryguy....is that veneer on those towers...looks awsome, if so, what kind did you use??

blaine...I went through the same thing you are now, and of course I have only built these towers. But...let me just say, they are so very heavy, I have a hard time moving them around, i'm guessing they weigh like 100 pounds. The bass output is enough to shake my room(when I turned the bass up on the reciever...just to see what the output was like) Don't laugh...but these are in my apartment room, but it is a fairly big room which is 15X14 ft. I've had them set up for an hour, amazed so far.


The other towers, are huge, and heavy, but it seems they can be ran without a sub (I think that was one of the main reasons for designing them). Just so big, and cost more, that would be the downside for me. I have a sub, so chose to do the tmww version.

[Fryguy]

It's african ribbon mahogany veneer with a few coats of cherry stain and some clearcoat lacquer.

Like I said, they look much better in real life than in those pics.

Haven't really had much of a chance to listen to them yet, but they seem to sound pretty good. Some strange circumstances in my apartment right now (roomate had surgery and so his mom is staying over, blah). Will hopefully get to let them rip a bit tomorrow.

They are pretty heavy when loaded up (probably in the 75pound ballpark, just a guess). I'm also pretty scrawny so maybe not :)

[MrCabinetry]

It's african ribbon mahogany veneer with a few coats of cherry stain and some clearcoat lacquer.

Like I said, they look much better in real life than in those pics.

Haven't really had much of a chance to listen to them yet, but they seem to sound pretty good. Some strange circumstances in my apartment right now (roomate had surgery and so his mom is staying over, blah). Will hopefully get to let them rip a bit tomorrow.

They are pretty heavy when loaded up (probably in the 75pound ballpark, just a guess). I'm also pretty scrawny so maybe not :)


Just to clarify as to what Fry said:

Ribbon Striped - African Mahogany.

MinWax PolyShades - Natural Cherry 390/490 - 2 coats

Deft - Clear Gloss Lacquer - Aerosol Can - 6 coats

[spmachina77]

thanks MrCabinetry
that finish looks great, and I will be the first to admit, I was totally lost when it came to finishing my cabinets....I'm completely happy with how they turned out, but if I was more experienced I'm sure they could have been better.

I wanted to get something similar to the nutmeg b&w speakers. I ended up doing walnut (which I wish I didn't) and covered that with minwax red oak stain (1 coat), and finished with 6 coats of waterlox sealer/finish.

[MrCabinetry]

thanks MrCabinetry
that finish looks great, and I will be the first to admit, I was totally lost when it came to finishing my cabinets....I'm completely happy with how they turned out, but if I was more experienced I'm sure they could have been better.

I wanted to get something similar to the nutmeg b&w speakers. I ended up doing walnut (which I wish I didn't) and covered that with minwax red oak stain (1 coat), and finished with 6 coats of waterlox sealer/finish.

Hmmm, Walnut isn't bad, the final finished appearance depending on what ya go with can be one of those iffy deals.

That's why I always tend to lean towards light woods with decent grain patterns and then use a stain that highlights it rather than making it stand out like a sore thumb.

The natural cherry did a really good job bringing out the grain without making it stand out that much and adding just enough red hue to it, which is what Fry wanted and got beyond his expectations.

[Blaine]

blaine...I went through the same thing you are now, and of course I have only built these towers. But...let me just say, they are so very heavy, I have a hard time moving them around, i'm guessing they weigh like 100 pounds. The bass output is enough to shake my room(when I turned the bass up on the reciever...just to see what the output was like) Don't laugh...but these are in my apartment room, but it is a fairly big room which is 15X14 ft. I've had them set up for an hour, amazed so far.


The other towers, are huge, and heavy, but it seems they can be ran without a sub (I think that was one of the main reasons for designing them). Just so big, and cost more, that would be the downside for me. I have a sub, so chose to do the tmww version.

I have a sub; I imagine I'd be pretty darned happy with these ones too. Who was I kidding to even look at the bigger ones? My wife thought the BR-1s were a waste of money. Maybe I can get away with these if I buy one driver a month. That'd keep UPS in business...

[digital desire]

Dumb question...
Has anyone used a LT with these?
I really like what it (Marchand basis) did for my sub, and was wondering if any one has done it with these?
Or are these woofers just not up to this sort of abuse?

[BrianJD]

Or are these woofers just not up to this sort of abuse?

Yup. The RS225 doesn't have the power handling or the Xmax (7mm) to sustain an LT.
OTOH the Bassis is an adjustable LT, with 4 - RS225s sealed I guess you could apply some gentle EQ, but be careful.

[Brian Bunge]

It would only work if your cabinets are sealed.

[Fryguy]

LT on towers? If by LT you mean linkwitz transform, that seems very not-normal to run an LT on fullrange speakers. Something I've never heard of before.

I'm using an 18" ascendant audio avalanche with mine. I'm playing with the crossover now. I moved some stuff in my room (there was a shoerack that my woofer rattled the hell out of), and I moved the woofer itself (it cracked my wall so I had to do something), I'm currently at 80hz, will probably go back down to 60 (I don't have any more granularity than that), with the towers playing full-range (not crossed over).

Mine are bi-amped btw. 2 Behringer A500s (plus a third for my surrounds)

[Frey]

I think the TMWW florstander will be my next project, but I was interested to hear if anybody has any experience in bi-amping, but using active filters between mid and bass. This is because I would like to save on the crossoverparts and possible get a higher damping/better control on the basses, and because I have 2 Icepower 500 modules, and 2 UCD 400 modules lying around that I would like to use. I hope to hear some feedback on this.

[Fryguy]

I'm bi-amping, but passively. I would imagine that there aren't actives available that are going to give the settings that these passives provide. Not sure.

[cjd]

Bi-amping with an active crossover between the mid and woofer means you'll need a 100% different crossover for the mid-tweeter. So it's a new project of sorts.

C

[Frey]

I realize that it really wouldn´t be easy , but you never know if there was a clever person out there, who had done exactly what I was looking for.
Can you feel the big difference by bi-amping passively Fryguy? I might start at that, and then move on to the axtive some day. (if I really feel the need)

[cjd]

Unless you want to run a different *kind* of amp on the mid-tweet (for example, I've seen folks toss a tube amp or a chip-amp on the mid-tweet and something more substantial on the woofers) I think having said substantial amp (of which you listed many) brings little change. Depends on the amp. At any rate, the benefits of bi-amping will exist whether you do so actively or passively.

I've not heard a direct A/B of a traditional active amp vs. passive, but I did hear a DEQX vs passive and the passive won that round. Plus, it's all in there, done, no more work, etc. ;)

C

[digital desire]

Since I have to wait for my cabinets to be built, I am thinking center channel.
The best center in small (normal) form factor for voice matching would be cjd's or the MTM center?
I am using Dennis's crossover for the wwmt w/ seas tweeter.
I would love to build the matching center in this thread, but it is *way* to big to pass inspection.

[cjd]

It's a compromise - rather, any horizontal MTM is a compromise. But yes, it's likely going to be the best option for you.

A Modula MT might also work quite well and will avoid the horizontal issues. Voicing won't be quite as similar but still good.

[coolerbin]

This is my first post, find this website a couple of weeks ago and spent a lot of time on this thread. Finally finished all 47 pages......really really impressive......

I think I am going to start a project soon. :)

[chasw98]

This is my first post, find this website a couple of weeks ago and spent a lot of time on this thread. Finally finished all 47 pages......really really impressive......

I think I am going to start a project soon. :)


Welcome to HTguide! We usually give out a gold star for anyone that gets through all 47 pages but I lost them all. So all we have to offer today is help. :T

Chuck

[coolerbin]

Thanks for that...... :) and I am ready to pull the trigger after talked with my wife. I have all the tools for building the case. I have never build a speaker b4. I am pretty handy on the woodworks, however I have no idea how to connect all these speakers togather for DM's design, is there are diagram? I knew there is a crossover diagram, but how do you connect these crossover togather? maybe I am missing something.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

David

[Dennis Murphy]

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

David[/QUOTE]

When you get to that point, just e-mail me, and we can arrange to talk on the phone. It's probably the best way to avoid mishaps the first time out. It's not really that difficult to explain in writing, but I can't tell what misperceptions you might have starting out, and that can lead to misunderstandings.

[coolerbin]

Any help will be greatly appreciated.
When you get to that point, just e-mail me, and we can arrange to talk on the phone. It's probably the best way to avoid mishaps the first time out. It's not really that difficult to explain in writing, but I can't tell what misperceptions you might have starting out, and that can lead to misunderstandings.

Thanks Dennis, I will email you when I got there......

[BigJim_inFLA]

After two months of travel and exams I've finally had a productive weekend. In addition to cutting all the pieces for a pair of Nat P's, I was able to finish construction of one TMWW and start construction of the second. Being impatient I had to load the drivers and have a listen...I am very impressed! I've had Klipsch Chorus II's as my main speakers since 1987 and liked them quite a bit, but the TMWW is much nicer and the pair will end up costing less than one of the Klipsch's cost me in '87. I found the TMWW to be much smoother and more natural sounding than the Klipsch. With the Klipsch the mids and high were a bit harsh and they seemed to be "coming from the speaker" while with the TMWW different instruments sounded spaced apart, not local to the speaker. Also I'm hearing more things with the TMWW, in some classical peices I hear triangles and bells that were really overwhelmed by other instruments when listening on the Klipsch speakers. Overall I am extremely pleased! These were to be a gift for my father's HT system, but now I may keep these and build him another pair!

[cjd]

Given them away as intended, and build yourself another pair. :)

Good to hear another satisfied builder!

[spmachina77]

Thanks to dennis for the XO design, and all the other input here. Wouldn't have been motivated without so much to look at with all my questions.

Speakers are just in my room for right now, with my other speakers...for comparison.

my old speakers were just unbranded towers I got from a buddy a while back. They have 2 6.5 drivers, and a 12" sub (they are in pics below). But its they sound so muddy and empty compared to these speakers (thats really to be expected).

I was also curious how well my onkyo sr502 reciever would run these. I can turn it up plenty loud, and it doesn't have any problems at all. Never turnsoff. But unfortunatly I do live in an apartment, so I can't listen at loud volumes for very long. I do plan on getting an external amp to run these....someday. But for now these will tide me over. Even though my old towers had a built in 12" sub, the rs towers will put out more bass that my old speaker would (with the same power). And it sounds 100Xs better doing it.
I have been running these crossed at 80z with a sub.

I don't have much experience with high end speakers, but one thing I notice with these, is they sound like the music is coming from right in front of me. in comparison, the old speakers sound muddy, like the sound is coming from way back...or in a different room with the door open.
The bass is not too much louder, but is a lot cleaner. The speakers provide a lot more sparkle on the top end, but doesn't sound harsh at all. Just seems like the other tweeter was leaving the top end off. I come from a car audio backround, and most metal dome tweeters, sound harsh to me (ie rockford fosgates). I was worried I would find these the same way. Not at all though, they are not laid back, but sound very accuarte and pleasing.
Imaging was a million times better with the new speakers. Again, I'm comparing these to some crappy speakers, so its no doubt they would be better.
But all I can say is I'm completely happy with how these sound.

just to point out guys, this was my first full range speaker that i've built. Everything went well, (because of all the info here to go by). I will say though, finishing was the hardest part. And took me 3-4 times longer than I expected.


finish:
I rounded over the front left and right sides of all 3 with a 1/2 roundover router bit
1) cabinets were covered in walnut veneer from tapeease.com
I used the iron on method for this. Its easy to do, but very time consuming...maybe just me but it took about 3 hours to do the 3 speakers (maybe more, it seemed like forever).
2) stained with one coat minwax red oak
3) finished with 6 coats of waterlox sealer/finish

4) i put polyfil in the mid/tweeter enclosure
and 2" thick fiberglass in the woofer enclosure

The finish isn't bad....but there are a few things that I don't like about it. When taking pictures, I can see seperate pieces of veneer. This isn't something I joined, its the actual joining from tapeease. If I take darker pictures its hard to notice (and I hardly notice it when looking at the speakers), but when I take a picture with the flash on, they pop out like crazy. But this comes out mostly when taking pictures. This is what i'm talking about....
http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286787.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/finish1(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286873.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/amber(Large).JPG)

Then the actual color of the cabinet, came out sort of like I wanted. In darker light, I like the color, but when I open the windows and get a lot of light coming in (or again, use a camera with the flash on), they look a lot more like an orange/amber color to them. (you can easily see this in the 2 pics above). When I actually get a home theater set up, the room won't have any windows...so this really isn't a huge problem.

This was my first time finishing, so I really am pleased with how it went, but for future projects, thats really what I need to work on.
Anyways here are a few pics...for the fun of it

http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286788.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/messy(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286657.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/barecabinet(Medium).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286659.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/barespeaker(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286793.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/ironing(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286660.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/veneer1(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286658.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/veneer2(Large).JPG)

http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286665.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/veneer3(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286664.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/stain1(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286662.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/stain2(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286661.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/crossover1(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286663.jpg' (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/crossover2(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286666.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/speakerspikes(Large).JPG)

http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286789.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/finish2(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286792.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/finish4(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286790.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/speaker2(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19286791.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/finish3(Large).JPG) http://thumbs.villagephotos.com/19287248.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/913404/room1(Large).JPG)

[MrCabinetry]

They turned out pretty good, though, the veneer where you applied the stain is blotchy in certain area's due to the openness of veneer's grain, that's why it darker in some area's.

Some wood species are like that, the grain is so open that any stain applied just darkens right up and you get that blotchy effect and the only way to address such open grain woods it to do a sealer coat first and apply the stain so it does not absorb as much.

The reason for the grain pattern is that it appears to be quarter sawn or rip cut, which is why it looks like it does. Much in the same manner as when boards are glued up to make panels for cabinets.

If the veneer pieces were book matched, then the grain pattern would of had a more even balanced appearance to it which is why I used Book Match Veneer for Fry's cabinets.

I like it though, gives the cabinets that rustic look and feel :T

[spmachina77]

yeah, the stain turned out darker in the areas where there were knots and stuff...just soaked up more stain, I actually don't mind it, in person that doesnt' bug me....but next time i'll pay twice as much for veneer and have it bookmatched. That should be more pleasing to the eye.

[digital desire]

Thanks for the pics, great post!
On the veneer, did you start in the middle and work each side, or start one side and work your way around to the other two?
I take it one 4X8 sheet did all three speakers?
It looks like you went with 12" depth on the center like KGveteran did?

[spmachina77]

center is 14" deep....I messed up on a cut...and just decided to stick with it, cause its plenty big anyways.

it took 2 sheets of 8X4 veneer (I usued about half of the second sheet, and had scraps left over).

As far as ironing on, I started from the baffle, and worked to one side, and then when that was done, worked back from the baffle towards the other side. This worked well, I did have 1 wrinkle, in one of the towers I wasn't able to get ride of. Its small, but you notice these imperfections when you made them.
the left side, baffle, and right side, is one cut of veener, the top bottom and back are there own cut, used a router to trim it flush, and then went over with 220 grit to clean the edges

I think the trick to iron on is: first use lots of glue on your cabinets, 2-3 layers, 1 is fine on the veneer. Wait for it to dry completely, then iron on. While ironing on, at first move fairly quickly, keep the iron moving.....this is to avoid wrinkles, don't concentrate to much on one area. Then onces its sort of set. Then go over....and over, to make sure its completely glued on everywhere, during this part you can move the iron very slow.

[Rudy D]

I know a few people are making some rounded enclosures, they asked for my brace template. Also, I was asked what I will be forming the sides of the enclosures with. So here is the bendable plywood I bought, it is 3/8" thick. There are 2 sheets in the picture.

It took my a day to get the plywood to bend this much. I bent it in to a half circle at first, then let it sit for a few hours. I repeated the process of bending and letting the wood fibers stretch for a few hours for a day. I imagine after I cut it up tomorrow, forming the sides will be a piece of cake.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9286/dscn0950dq2.jpg
Anyone willing to part with the templates that mike made for you? Mike is no longer available to make them.

[WillyD]

spmachina77 - I still think they turned out nice. Good job and I am glad you like them!

[Brian Walter]

Anyone willing to part with the templates that mike made for you? Mike is no longer available to make them.

Rudy,

I don't have any templates I would be willing to part with, but in Post #880, I posted a PDF file of the template. If you print the file to scale on 11 x 17 paper, it will be the exact size you need. You should be able to take the file to pretty much any graphics shop or even Kinko's to have it printed out. Simply glue the paper pattern down to a piece of 1/2" mdf using spray adhesive and then cut next to the line and finish sanding up to the line with a disk sander (not a hand held sander) and you should be all set with your own template. The rest of my plans are on the previous post, #879.

Good luck,

Brian Walter

[baniels]

I started making my cuts last night. Say, what do you folks use to fuse the two layers of the front baffle together? Simply use glue? Sound deadening sheet in between?

[Rudy D]

Rudy,

I don't have any templates I would be willing to part with, but in Post #880, I posted a PDF file of the template. If you print the file to scale on 11 x 17 paper, it will be the exact size you need. You should be able to take the file to pretty much any graphics shop or even Kinko's to have it printed out. Simply glue the paper pattern down to a piece of 1/2" mdf using spray adhesive and then cut next to the line and finish sanding up to the line with a disk sander (not a hand held sander) and you should be all set with your own template. The rest of my plans are on the previous post, #879.

Good luck,

Brian Walter
Thanks Brian, I did use your PDF .

[jdybnis]

I started making my cuts last night. Say, what do you folks use to fuse the two layers of the front baffle together? Simply use glue? Sound deadening sheet in between?

I didn't build these but I see nobody else answered. Yes you can just glue them together with yellow glue. It is just a strong as the glue in the plywood.

[jonathanb3478]

Sound deadening sheet in between?

I thought I followed a link from someone here where this approach gave some good results. I still have not attached my six outer enclosure walls, and I would also like some feedback from the guru's around here on whether there is enough benefit to putting a layer of, say the asphalt based stuff from PE, between two 3/4" MDF enclosure panels to justify the expense.

[jdybnis]

Art Ludwig says on his site that he had success with roofing felt.

[jonathanb3478]

Art Ludwig says on his site that he had success with roofing felt.

That very well could have been the link I was remembering. I have seen that before, certainly.

The thing is, he does not sandwich it between two 3/4" MDF panels, but between the MDF and 1/4" masonite. Also, he does not glue the panels to the felt, but bolts them together at the edges. He also indicates that when he adds bolts in the middle of the panel, not just the edges, that the performance drops. I guess because they couple the two layers together at those points, making the felt useless in that area.

I think gluing one panel to the felt, then the felt to the other panel, would aliviate this. Still, though, there is also the material mismatch between MDF/Masonite and MDF/MDF that further reduces my confidence that his results are applicable.

I think I will, personally, just stick to dampning the interior of the enclosure only, vs adding some between the panels too. Oh well.

[MrCabinetry]

In regards to the Double Baffle.

Just simply use a 1/4" Nap Paint Roller and spread the wood glue evenly over the surface, then lay the other panel over that and use whatever you can to apply weight evenly over the panels.

Just make sure that your panels are aligned before the glue cures.

[Prototrax]

Here are my curved cabinets.....

I filled in the voids and screw holes with wood bondo so the venner would stick.

I also sealed the benadable plywood with sanding sealer.




http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/8657/p1010006cp5.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/1066/p1010007gn6.jpg

[Prototrax]

If anyone is looking for some bendable plywood in the SE Wisconsin area:

http://www.alpineplywood.com/about.html

I needed 2 sheets of 3/8 thick x 8' x 4' bendable plwood (luan).

An 8 x 4 sheet has the wood grain run in the 4 foot direction.

A single sheet runs 43.00

The first layer needed to be screwed to the "skeleton" of the speaker.
I thought there would not be enough surface area for the glue to cure to.


http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3948/p1010002em4.jpg

[Prototrax]

Here is a final Solidworks rendering of my speakers with the grill on.

For the front baffle , I will be using a vinyl laminate from Parts Express:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=261-618

The material will bend around the baffle radius and has the adhesive on the back.

This saves me from buying another piece of veneer for the front.

Most of the front will be covered with the grill cloth in a dark brown color.

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/7472/newspeakerwithgrillax6.jpg

[Prototrax]

Here is a picture of the base I've added to the speakers..
( kids will knock 'em over)

This will also be covered in the vinyl laminate.



http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/9606/basexi2.jpg

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/460/base2ba2.jpg

[Prototrax]

Below are pictures of the back of the cabinet.
This is where I started to apply the venner.
This was my first time working with " Hot Melt" veneer and it turned out better than expected.
I trimmed the veneer with a utility knife and then used a coarse double cut file to "sand" down the edge to the curved surface.
Some of the edges didn't quite stick right away and were easily re-heated and set into place.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1640/p1280009sq2.jpg

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4186/p1280010aq4.jpg

[Brian Walter]

Protomax,

Those look mighty nice and thanks for the link to a source of bendy plywood. While it may not be worth having them ship it to Mpls, MN, they may have a local distributor. I'm thinking I might like to try the bendy plywood on my next curved speaker project. Keep posting pictures as you go, it's nice to see other peoples projects.

Brian Walter

[baniels]

I plan on lining the inner walls and braces of the cabinets with this stuff (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-516&CFID=8542116&CFTOKEN=46996911) from PE. Is that all I need? I can't find anything quite like this (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=306137&postcount=1541) locally.

The roofing felt I saw at the local lumberyard was slightly thicker than paper. Would a layer of that under the acoustic foam do anything?

What do you suggest?

[dawaro]

I plan on lining the inner walls and braces of the cabinets with this stuff (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-516&CFID=8542116&CFTOKEN=46996911) from PE. Is that all I need? I can't find anything quite like this (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=306137&postcount=1541) locally.

The roofing felt I saw at the local lumberyard was slightly thicker than paper. Would a layer of that under the acoustic foam do anything?

What do you suggest?
That will be fine. That is what is in the set I built and the original enclosues the measurements were done on.

[baniels]

Sorry, to be clear, you mean using the acoustical foam alone - no "roofing felt"?

[digital desire]

http://zaphaudio.com/whispermat.html

I found this part especially interesting:
What about the cheap stuff?

Egg crate foam is the worst there is. It's almost like using nothing. One potentially good cheaper material is 1/2" thick carpet padding. The thick felt kind is almost always good, and you can double it up if you need more damping. The chopped foam type can be good also, although the acoustic properties of this can vary. You will have to test it. You can almost tell how well it's going to do by just putting close to your ear while listening to pink noise.
I bought the same stuff with my order from PE for the wwmt's. The cats found it. I think I will let them have it.

[Prototrax]

The egg crate foam works for me, but I usually can get a whole queen size mattress pad from Target on sale for 3 of those small squares from Parts Express.

[baniels]

The egg crate foam works for me, but I usually can get a whole queen size mattress pad from Target on sale for 3 of those small squares from Parts Express.


In other words, it's exactly the same stuff. If so, I may send it back to PE.

[JonP]

The roofing felt I saw at the local lumberyard was slightly thicker than paper. Would a layer of that under the acoustic foam do anything?

What do you suggest?

There are different "weights" of the stuff.. I think #30 is the heaviest. That's the stuff most people think of when you say "tar paper", it's about 1/16". The others are thinner, and closer to paper. You want some mass, so the heavier the better....

I've used 3-4 layers of the stuff, stapled sparingly to the inside of the box. Looser layers seem to work better than stapling every few inches. (by knuckle rap test) Its good to damp the ringyness of a box, but after good bracing gets the majority of the job done. Adding some kind of foam on top of it is also good, since the tar paper is just damping vibrations in the cab, not in the
airspace inside.

[baniels]

Thanks for the info. I'll go back and see what weights they have.

There are different "weights" of the stuff.. I think #30 is the heaviest. That's the stuff most people think of when you say "tar paper", it's about 1/16". The others are thinner, and closer to paper. You want some mass, so the heavier the better....

I've used 3-4 layers of the stuff, stapled sparingly to the inside of the box. Looser layers seem to work better than stapling every few inches. (by knuckle rap test) Its good to damp the ringyness of a box, but after good bracing gets the majority of the job done. Adding some kind of foam on top of it is also good, since the tar paper is just damping vibrations in the cab, not in the
airspace inside.

[baniels]

I think I can get my hand on some 3/4 or half inch carpet padding. What am I looking for exactly when I "test" it? If I understand correctly, I need something to deaden the MDf, to reduce vibration, and then something else to deal with standing wave and backwaves.

What is better?

1) "Tar paper" under egg crate.
2) Tar paper under carpet padding.
3) Carpet padding under egg crate.

Thanks for bearing with me.

[dawaro]

Sorry, to be clear, you mean using the acoustical foam alone - no "roofing felt"?
The foam alone. Neither mine nor the original had a constrained layer.

[dawaro]

The egg crate foam works for me, but I usually can get a whole queen size mattress pad from Target on sale for 3 of those small squares from Parts Express.
Mattress pads are generally closed cell foam where the acoustic pads are open cell IIRC. The closed cell pads actually displace volume.

[Brian Walter]

Mattress pads are generally closed cell foam where the acoustic pads are open cell IIRC. The closed cell pads actually displace volume.

All the eggcrate mattress pads I've seen have been open cell foam, but that's not to say some of it isn't closed cell. Thinking about it, I have seen closed cell egg crate foam used for camping pads, but not for placement over a normal box spring and mattess, the stuff you find in the linen department at Target.

Brian Walter

[baniels]

I got some "Spillmaster" 10lb carpet pad from Menards. I'm going to give it a try. It's 3/8" thick and feels a bit like memory foam. Maybe one layer of this underneath the open-cell egg crate foam will do the trick.

What is the best way to adhere the pad, you think? Should I staple it sparingly, or just use spray adhesive to get a flat, gap-less adhesion?
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/spillmaster.jpg

[Prototrax]

Are we really trying to kill the vibration of the MDF?

This design has enough bracing and thickness to dampen it.

The interior foam is to stop the internal sound from being a problem.

I doubt these cabinets would ring at all and only at the highest sound levels You would probably hear more vibs from objects in the room than the speakers themselves.

[baniels]

Can it hurt? I've done subs, but i'm a speaker virgin, so to speak. I'm just trying to cover all angles. If it might do some good, but not any bad, than I'm up for the experiment.

Are we really trying to kill the vibration of the MDF?

This design has enough bracing and thickness to dampen it.

The interior foam is to stop the internal sound from being a problem.

I doubt these cabinets would ring at all and only at the highest sound levels You would probably hear more vibs from objects in the room than the speakers themselves.

[Prototrax]

Nope.......It can't hurt at all........

[baniels]

[edit: delete - found my answers].... I think.

[baniels]

I need crossover advice.

I have all the x-over components for my TMWW mains except for the 100uF Caps (PE 027-956 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=027-956&CFID=8542116&CFTOKEN=46996911)) and the .4 mH Inductors (PE 255-224 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=255-224&CFID=8542116&CFTOKEN=46996911)). They are both on backorder until April 6th.

Does anyone know of another source for these - or something else that will work just as well (or better)? Any advice is appreciated.

[digital desire]

Hmm. I'm torqued. I had the inductor on backorder, and they said it would be available next week. Now they have set back till April. NFG.
I ordered the cap from madisound, a solen. ($25)
Meniscusaudio has some inductors, I'm going to look there.
EDIT: PE has the Partnumber=266-814 available next week. That is what I ordered from the original BOM for the DM/Seas towers.

[Brian Bunge]

To anyone building Chris' and my MTMWW design and wanting to use the WTMW center that he designed to go with it, I can tell you that it matches up very well! I finally finished the damn thing yesterday just before the Super Bowl started.

The bass response is good, but a bit boomy due to the fact that it's temporarily sitting in the TV stand that came with my 60" Philips DLP and is really only about 3" off of the floor. That obviously affects male vocals as well. I've got to build a new TV stand once I get a few projects done. Once I set the center to small and adjusted the levels (by ear for now, will pull out the SPL meter tonight) it sounded very good. Mids were much better and highs were nice and clear without any harshness.

If anyone is interested I'll post the crossover BOM for Chris' design. I will say that it was a bit pricey. There are several big caps and inductors. I used all Janzten coils (some 15 guage units in the woofer and mid xo) and also used Jantzen caps wherever possible. I had to parallel a couple of caps to get one value and used some solen caps when I couldn't find the values I needed in the Janztens.

Anyway, I can say that Chris' design is a great match for the big MTMWW's. I'll get the levels set tonight and try listening with some music in 3-channel mode.

[baniels]

You may want to edit your hyperlink... 8O

Hmm. I'm torqued. I had the inductor on backorder, and they said it would be available next week. Now they have set back till April. NFG.
I ordered the cap from madisound, a solen. ($25)
Meniscusaudio has some inductors, I'm going to look there.
EDIT: PE has the Partnumber =266- available next week. That is what I ordered from the original BOM for the DM/Seas towers.

[baniels]

HI,

I put together my first crossover last night (this is for the seas tweeter). Perhaps one of you can take a look at it and tell me if I've read the schematic - and executed it - properly. I realize I could have been more efficient with my spacing, but I wanted to err in the direction of roominess.

Front Image
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/X-Over.jpg

Rear Image (flipped horizontally for easier comparison with front image)
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/X-Over-1.jpg

And here is the schematic I was going by
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/UPdated-X-Over-Tweet.jpg

[BigJim_inFLA]

Looks like you've got it right.

[cjd]

To anyone building Chris' and my MTMWW design and wanting to use the WTMW center that he designed to go with it, I can tell you that it matches up very well! I finally finished the damn thing yesterday just before the Super Bowl started.

The bass response is good, but a bit boomy due to the fact that it's temporarily sitting in the TV stand that came with my 60" Philips DLP and is really only about 3" off of the floor.

Finally! :P Good to hear it seems to be working well. Do you think the component cost is out of line even compared to the towers? Or are you just referring to the fact that it costs more than Dennis's and may therefore be a surprise to most? (Hey, I think Jon's is even more than mine so :lol: )

On the boomy bass, looking over the measurements and whatnot there is the possibility that a smaller gauge 2.2mH inductor should be used on the woofers. Though being that close to the floor will also introduce some floor bounce that I'm sure was not in the original measurements and definitely will not help the situation any.

C

[Brian Bunge]

I don't know what the component costs are for the other center designs. I can tell you that even with my dealer account discount I spent $161 shipped for the parts. It's definitely in line with what I spent on the big towers. I think with the parts from Madisound I spent around $300 for the parts for the pair of speakers. So this isn't what I'd call out of line based on the towers' XO costs.

Turning the level up on the center helped a lot with the perceived boominess. The level was just so low that everything seemed muffled, which I know it is to a small extent. I just happened to order parts before I thought to ask you what guage inductors I should get. I just assumed lower DCR would be a better option after all the discussion with the towers. Based on the discussion with my wife last night, I'll be building a stand that's around 24"-30"H. The center will be on a shelf directly below the top shelf where the TV will sit, so I'd say the tweeter will probably be around 28"H if I go with a 30" stand. If the sound is still boomy at that point I'll re-visit the possibility of going with lower BSC.

I'll report more after proper calibration tonight. I may also start a new thread about this version of the center since it's meant to mate with a completely different pair of towers than the ones in this thread.

[jquin]

Hi All
This is probably against etiquette but I don't think I can digest all the posts to answer this question myself.

Basically what is the design methodology behind this design?.

I have looked at the M8ta and heard great things about the RS52 mid so why are you using the RS150? I'm curious

I think I will build the M8ta and do a similar center to the M8ta unless someone can convince me about the designs on this thread. The mains look really nice in both designs.

Regards
John Quin

[Brian Bunge]

I believe the RS52 had not been released yet when this design was first under way.

[Prototrax]

Here are some pictures of the front baffle using the black vinyl laminate from Parts Express.here (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=261-618)

Using a router , I cut a .015 deep slot in the back of the baffle to allow the vinyl to lay flat.
I then appied sanding sealer to the MDF.
The vinyl started to come up after one hour (50 degrees in the workshop)
I used a warm iron to make the adhesive set.

The cabinets have 2 coats of stain only at this point (Varathane)

Color is No. 257 Cabernet
Stain (http://www.rustoleum.com/product.asp?frm_product_id=393&SBL=1)


http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/9803/p2050024yf4.jpg

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/180/p2040019tk7.jpg

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8379/p2050025jq9.jpg

[orbifold]

I posted in the Mission Possible earlier, but was still working out the method. All but 4 of the 116 pieces for the R&L are cut, so here's the short and sweet on how this is being done.
Not having the time to learn CAD, I just sketched my own layout working from Brian Walter's dimensions. Then cut a template in 1/4" mdf, handy panels from HD. I used several of these patterns at once, see the crappy pic here (sorry! these are probably the worst pix I've seen on the forum :oops: ) I used a 1/4" spiral bit and 5/16 template guide to do the deed. You can see the dark part, one leg of a piece that has been cut to the right, with 6 left to do. I got 26 pieces from one sheet.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/6586/layoutforcuttingfb4.th.jpg (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=layoutforcuttingfb4.jpg)

You can see the advantage, many MDF trees are preserved in this manner :B
It is also less tiring to cut several at a time. Now for the Xbrace, I just screwed an existing template to some more 1/4" stuff and added a couple new pieces, then cut that out, seen in this unbelievable crappy pic:

http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/4933/xbracefabricationqd1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



Hard to believe this is going to lead to something sounding really great, isn't it! Hey, I did just get another shop lite. I realise now I've been working in the dark.
So here is the section for the mid and tweeter:

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7886/midtweeterpartionmi6.jpg

A little attention from the belt sander to remove the edge frillies and flatten the holes made by the template screws, and they're ready.
I'm going to play with clamps and several pieces at a time to find out the best way to glue these together and keep them aligned. Then glue those sections together.
Here is the full loose stack, all warm in the basement and ready to get titebond. You can see different colors of mdf. The lighter stuff was in the garage since the early 90's!

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/8494/loosestackxy4.jpg


Following pics will be better if I can get one of the kids to help out with a better camera than my Treo phone. :roll:

I have 3 sheets of the PE sound deadening bituminous stuff, that goes in the woofer and the tweeter-mid portion, right? Yeah, there will be questions later, I'm sure.

[spmachina77]

guys I need some help,
I'm trying to decide on a tv to buy......and I think my mind is set on a front projector..(can't pass up the huge screen). Anyways, I'm trying to think of how I can make this work. With the large center channel and towers.

I have a room, that is fairly large, but the wall is just blank. I'm going to buy a 96" screen, to mount on the wall.

The towers won't be as big of a problem because there on the sides.

The main thing I'm worried about is the center channel, because it will kind of bee right by the screen. Just worried about it being out in front of the screen by like 20 inches.

Please suggest if there is anything else to consider. But I think i'll just have to build a speaker stand for the center.

My question is main, how high should I build it, I would like it to be as low as possible, but really don't want to sacrifice sq for this. Is angeling it upwards and haveing it fairly low against the ground bad?

I was thinking if I raised it like 15-20 inches and angled it a little upward. it wouldn't look to bad.

I was also wondering if anybody has ever been in a HT with a motirzed screen that wasn't right up against the wall. But placed flush with the speakers so they aren't out in fron of the screen. So that the speakers were more flush. I'm also considering this, but I think that I would find it annoying to watch a movie on with it not up against the wall. I don't have any viewing experience, with this so am having a hard time deciding which route to go.

[cjd]

You want to make it as high as possible. Mine has black velvet over the top and is right up against the edge of my 16:9 screen.

Speakers out in front of the screen is quite common. If you have the room/budget/inclination you can build a false wall for the screen a few feet out from the real back wall, put an acoustically transparent screen in, build 3 towers for the front, and also have room to stuff sub(s) behind the screen wall not to mention adding sound absorbing material. Being able to do this gets you tremendous benefits, but... it's a tough sell. :)

C

[digital desire]

Mine will be sitting directly on a 32" CRT screen. Anyone else have one sitting directly on a CRT? By my crude experiment, if I hold a tweeter over the screen by 9" (Where it will be - although blocked by the 150 - will the 150 attenuate any magnetisim?) the screen is *just* normal, go lower and it starts "doing things".
If it is fine at 9", hopefully it will be fine long term. Just makes me wonder if I am the first to go here.

[jonathanb3478]

If you have the room/budget/inclination you can build a false wall for the screen a few feet out from the real back wall, put an acoustically transparent screen in, build 3 towers for the front, and also have room to stuff sub(s) behind the screen wall not to mention adding sound absorbing material. Being able to do this gets you tremendous benefits, but... it's a tough sell. :)

C


I was going to suggest a false wall as well. You do not need an acoustically transparent screen, but that does make things pretty easy. I was thinking build the false "wall" as acousticly transparent. Paint the walls back there black, don't put any light source back there, and make the wall out of black grille cloth draped down from a framework on the ceiling and held/weighted down at the bottom (floor). Then just put the speakers to the sides/bottom of the screen, back behind the grille cloth "wall".

You could also build something like my above suggestion, but arrange it to be flush with the baffles of the speakers. You would see the speaker baffles/drivers as if they were mounted on the "wall". You would still need BSC as the "wall" would just be grille cloth, but it would look like an "in wall" speaker setup.

I want to do something like this in a dedicated theater room, once I'm done with appartment living.

You know, regardless of which false wall idea you use, you would not be able to raise/lower the screen. A raised screen would put a hole in your "wall", obviously.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

[baniels]

Well, I'm making some good progress. Here is (http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Mains/Construction%20Photos/?start=all) a link to my construction photos.

Got a question... As you can see in some of the pictures, I haven't finished lining the walls with (convoluted) foam. Tell me, should I cover the braces with foam on both sides - or should I cut out holes in the foam to match the holes in the braces?

[Jim Holtz]

Well, I'm making some good progress. Here is (http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/bendaniels/RS%203-Way%20Mains/Construction%20Photos/?start=all) a link to my construction photos.

Got a question... As you can see in some of the pictures, I haven't finished lining the walls with (convoluted) foam. Tell me, should I cover the braces with foam on both sides - or should I cut out holes in the foam to match the holes in the braces?

Hi Ben,

Your cabinet construction pictures look great. :T

You can just place the foam over the holes without any issues. It is acoustically transparent and doesn't take up space.

That actually brings up a question I have for you. Can you blow through the carpet pad you're using to line the walls with? If not, it's reducing the volume of your cabinet. Not a critical thing in a sealed cabinet design but I thought you should be aware that you're losing a few liters of cabinet volume using that material.

Jim

[baniels]

Jim,

Definitely can't blow through it. I thought of that as i was stapling down the last piece. It's not too late to remove it, but I figured what the heck. It isn't reducing the volume by very much.

Hi Ben,

Your cabinet construction pictures look great. :T

You can just place the foam over the holes without any issues. It is acoustically transparent and doesn't take up space.

That actually brings up a question I have for you. Can you blow through the carpet pad you're using to line the walls with? If not, it's reducing the volume of your cabinet. Not a critical thing in a sealed cabinet design but I thought you should be aware that you're losing a few liters of cabinet volume using that material.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,

Definitely can't blow through it. I thought of that as i was stapling down the last piece. It's not too late to remove it, but I figured what the heck. It isn't reducing the volume by very much.

Ben,

I wouldn't worry about it. The small difference in volume will be inaudible. I just wanted to give you a heads up for your next project. Yes, there will be another project. You're hooked now. :D

Jim

[baniels]

Oh, I know it. Next comes the center channel, followed by the surrounds.

Ben,
Yes, there will be another project. You're hooked now. :D

Jim

[digital desire]

Just to follow up on the shielding issue, on my CRT, with the TV sitting on top of the center speaker = no good. It just barely is not affected with the center on top of my 32" Philip's CRT flat screen TV.
Dunno, but maybe the midrange will have a shielding effect on the tweeter's magnetic life style also. I tested it with the the tweeter only in the cabinet.

[spmachina77]

is there anybody that has built the seas center, and seas towers designed by dennis murphey, and taken measurements. The reason I ask, Is I just took mine out of my room ..finally, and into a fairly large living room. And while setting up the speakers on the reciever, I used a cheaper radio shack meter. But the towers were probably 3-4 db louder than my center. I had to turn the gain up on my center to +5 to get them to match. I'm using an onkyo reciever, so i'm assuming power is the same to each. I also used the pink noise generated by the amp to set the levels.

Its not a huge deal...but i'm just curious why that is, does the center have a little more tweeter attenuation or what???

[digital desire]

But I hear she has a great personality!
My hats off to you people that make pretty crossovers. ;)
I guess I am more of a form follows function sort of guy....

[marcusicp]

Ok so I havent been around in a while and I am about to start building these and I was wondering if anyone had the drawing for the cabnets? I cant seem to get the links on the first page to work. If you have them can you please email them to me (mmasencup at gmail.com) Thanks for any help and I will post pics when I finish them.

[digital desire]

Ok so I havent been around in a while and I am about to start building these and I was wondering if anyone had the drawing for the cabnets? I cant seem to get the links on the first page to work. If you have them can you please email them to me (mmasencup at gmail.com) Thanks for any help and I will post pics when I finish them.
http://fryguy.nevercontent.com/DaytonProject/

[chasw98]

is there anybody that has built the seas center, and seas towers designed by dennis murphey, and taken measurements. The reason I ask, Is I just took mine out of my room ..finally, and into a fairly large living room. And while setting up the speakers on the reciever, I used a cheaper radio shack meter. But the towers were probably 3-4 db louder than my center. I had to turn the gain up on my center to +5 to get them to match. I'm using an onkyo reciever, so i'm assuming power is the same to each. I also used the pink noise generated by the amp to set the levels.

Its not a huge deal...but i'm just curious why that is, does the center have a little more tweeter attenuation or what???

I have the seas version of the DM XO in the L/R/C variety. I just installed a new pre/pro and when I set up the the levels with pink noise and the meter I was less than 1 db difference between all three. I am also using a 3 channel amplifier to power them. Power and distance are equal for all three.

Chuck

[digital desire]

is there anybody that has built the seas center, and seas towers designed by dennis murphey, and taken measurements. The reason I ask, Is I just took mine out of my room ..finally, and into a fairly large living room. And while setting up the speakers on the reciever, I used a cheaper radio shack meter. But the towers were probably 3-4 db louder than my center. I had to turn the gain up on my center to +5 to get them to match. I'm using an onkyo reciever, so i'm assuming power is the same to each. I also used the pink noise generated by the amp to set the levels.

Its not a huge deal...but i'm just curious why that is, does the center have a little more tweeter attenuation or what???

Someone early on in the thread had a very similar problem, it turned out they wired the mid in phase, and it is really backward. Double check your crossover wiring from the crossover to the speaker?

[digital desire]

Center is done.
I HEAR what all the fuss is about, excellent speaker!
Thanks for all the excellent engineering and posting to come up with such an excellent finished product.
Really, can not wait to get the towers started now.
:D

[marcusicp]

http://fryguy.nevercontent.com/DaytonProject/


Thanks! What about the CC?

[digital desire]

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=289904&postcount=1388
http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php4?attachmentid=7617
Here is one cad design:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=248202&postcount=395
This thread unfortunatly is getting very long, with many different designs. I can not find the "blue print" of the center I had built for me, it was slightly different, total width was 26" and total depth is 16". Dunno how much the depth cost me in response vs. the bigger cabinet.
The above schematics are the DM seas version...
I would suggest that given the rate of dead links appearing that you print out everything that is of interest to your project and making a project folder.

[digital desire]

I thought I would relate my experience that I have going on a thread in the possible section.
If anyone is planning on using the center on a CRT type monitor, it is relevant.
Mount your crossover external to the speaker. On mine, the crossover was approximately 10" from the picture tube, give or take. Well, the inductive forces must be fairly significant (I am guessing the 4.7 mh laminate core one, but just a guess) but it made the TV unusable cranked up. My crossover is now on the floor. You really only need four wires from cabinet to crossover, so a bi-amp terminal cup or four pole speakon connector will work. For those who like to go over the top, a 8 pole speakon connector is available from PE, as is some nice 13 gage 8 conductor cable.

[kgveteran]

Where would you rate the center channel project on the difficulty scale.The cabinet build (keep in mind, I used a cabinet guy) ordering parts,assembling parts, testing the finished project ect,ect,ect.

How about a 1-10 scale.A "1" being easy and a "10" brain surgery. I gave it a "6"

[chasw98]

Where would you rate the center channel project on the difficulty scale.The cabinet build (keep in mind, I used a cabinet guy) ordering parts,assembling parts, testing the finished project ect,ect,ect.

How about a 1-10 scale.A "1" being easy and a "10" brain surgery. I gave it a "6"

I had already built the WWMT's, so for me I would rate it a 5.

Chuck

[digital desire]

Maybe a 4 or 5. Electronics comes pretty easy, and since all the engineering is done, and I had the same cabinet guy, it went together very fast.
I finished it in the PE vinyl, and that went *real* quick, like wrapping a gift!

[kgveteran]

I think I gave it a "6" because I always wire something wrong and rely on TrueRta to get me out of it :B

[Brian Bunge]

The standard design (either Curt's or Dennis') I'd probably rate a 4-5. But the one I built, I'd say maybe a 6. This is mainly due to the fact that Chris' crossover is pretty big and it was cumbersome to get all the parts laid out on 3 separate boards that were small enough to fit inside the cabinet. I also built my cabinet 1" shorter (this was accidental) and 2" wider (this was on purpose) and added more bracing. I think the standard design isn't very pleasing to me, aesthetically whereas the changes I made to the cabinet look much nicer, IMHO.

Regardless of what design you go with, I think these are pretty damn hard to beat for the money invested.

[spmachina77]

Someone early on in the thread had a very similar problem, it turned out they wired the mid in phase, and it is really backward. Double check your crossover wiring from the crossover to the speaker?

all speakers as far as I can tell are in phase (I tested with a battery, woofers go out, mids go in....the tweeter on the other hand, I just looked at wires), and they all seem correct.

but I messed around a little though, I just set up my home theater, and I had the center channel on the floor angled up...so it was pointing at my ears, but was on the floor. I moved it to about 18" in the air, and pointed it directly outward. This helped, (probalby added about 1.5-2db)

but I would still say that the center is about 2-2.5 db quieter than my towers....
not a big deal, but if anybody has any idea why, I wouldn't mind knowing.

....the one thing I do noticed, is that the towers had a 10ohm resistor in parallel with the tweeter, where the center had a 12ohm resistor in parallel. I believe this would make the twetter on the center a little more laid back...

[Brian Bunge]

Was the bass output noticably different between the floor placement and having it higher? Mine is only a few inches off the floor and angled up at the moment and male vocals can be a bit boomy, but that should all change when I get a new TV stand built.

[spmachina77]

well, I don't actually have a stand (i'll be getting one now), but I just put it on a table, to just see the difference, (and I only tested it with pink noise) for db output, then I put it back to the floor.....can't watch movies with table under my speaker.



about rating the project.....i think it just comes down to experience.

For me the crossover wiring was very easy....couldn't design it, but following the design was simple.

The hard part for me was cabinet finishing, which I feel would be pretty similar to any speaker project. Overall though, I would agree with the ~5 rating, they really aren't that difficult with all the info here to follow.

[TNRRClassic]

Has anyone built the Jon Marsh version of the WMTW crossover? If so, what is the verdict? Thanks.

[WillyD]

I am pretty sure that someone did indeed build Jon's version. I forgot which page they posted on though.

[Timbo]

I have looked a some other cabinet designs/ volumes availible out there and was curious how awful it would be to build the TMWW in a Salk HT-3 style cabinet. Keep front baffle width and bass cabinet volume the same, will have a slight baffle difference at the TM area. Would a completly new crossover be needed, or could the current design work?

The HT-3 cabinets are a bit more attractive to me than the large rectangular boxes.... :confused:

[digital desire]

Quote from above post:
"I have looked a some other cabinet designs/ volumes availible out there and was curious how awful it would be to build the TMWW in a Salk HT-3 style cabinet. Keep front baffle width and bass cabinet volume the same, will have a slight baffle difference at the TM area. Would a completly new crossover be needed, or could the current design work?

The HT-3 cabinets are a bit more attractive to me than the large rectangular boxes.... "




Hi Moving the drivers around is both a theoretical and practical no-no. There will be a major effect on the frequency response and phase integration. .

[digital desire]

Lets see some pics of how you integrated the monster center channel into your HT, especially with respect to LCD or Plasma displays!
Anyone?

[BigJim_inFLA]

Lets see some pics of how you integrated the monster center channel into your HT, especially with respect to LCD or Plasma displays!
Anyone?


http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php4?attachmentid=9134

This is the center under my LCD. My Nat P's will be moving off the entertainment center as soon as my bass bins are finished.

[kgveteran]

Has anyone built the Jon Marsh version of the WMTW crossover? If so, what is the verdict? Thanks.

I would like to later on.It is a bit more cash, but I would like to hear the difference.

[Dennis Murphy]

....the one thing I do noticed, is that the towers had a 10ohm resistor in parallel with the tweeter, where the center had a 12ohm resistor in parallel. I believe this would make the twetter on the center a little more laid back...


HI Actually, it's the opposite. In parallel circuits, the lower the resistor value, the greater the attenuation. So the center has less attenuation than the mains. Think what would happen if you placed a 0-ohm resistor (a straight wire) between the tweeter terminals. You would have a dead short, with no sound. Now think of placing a resistor with nearly infinite resistance (like a glass tube) between the resistors. There would be no effect. The simple "more is less" only works for series circuits.

[bmowis]

Has anyone built the Jon Marsh version of the WMTW crossover? If so, what is the verdict? Thanks.

Sorry...just catching up with this thread...I did indeed build Jon's version of the WMTW. I posted a couple of pics a few pages back...somewhere in the forties, I think. ;)

Given that I do not have a benchmark (that is, I haven't heard other versions of the design), it's hard to know what to tell you. I can confirm that it *was* pretty expensive, and I can also tell you that I am quite happy with it. I've paired it with a couple of Nat Ps and it sounds wonderful.

Edit: Page 46, post #1590 w/ pics.

[digital desire]

Interesting that you had trouble with the tweeter and the CRT. That is a rs tweeter, correct? The h1212 had to be just about 9" away to prevent interference, and that is exactly where it is in the center. I would also guess that different TV's had different sensitivity's to the issue also.
The crossover was the real problem for my TV!

[bmowis]

Interesting that you had trouble with the tweeter and the CRT. That is a rs tweeter, correct? The h1212 had to be just about 9" away to prevent interference, and that is exactly where it is in the center. I would also guess that different TV's had different sensitivity's to the issue also.
The crossover was the real problem for my TV!

Indeed, it's an RS Tweeter. In retrospect, I sorta wish I went with the 27TBFC. I'm using those in my Nat Ps and I *love* them.

Building that 3 inch riser made a big difference. No more interference.

I've since moved the WMTW off the entertainment center and onto the floor in front of the TV. Having almost a hundred pounds sitting on top of a flimsy entertainment center containing all of my AV equipment was enough to make me a little nervous.

Admittedly, having the WMTW down where my 2 year old daughter can reach it has its disadvantages as well. :(

[digital desire]

Many thanks to Phil, (who also made fryguys) I now am ready to roll on the towers!
Nice job.
Can't wait to start in on it! :T

[chasw98]

Has anyone used an active crossover, either 2 way or 3 way, with their WWMT's? I have searched all 50 pages and can find no mention of anyone biamping or triamping these. Is there a reason? If not, why not?

Chuck

[BobEllis]

I'm working on it at least the center for now - if work gives me more than a moment to breathe. I plan to go with a 1500 Hz C-E (quasi 8th order, 27TDFCG) and 300 Hz 2nd order L-R, but plan on tweaking the exact points and Q. My cabinet is huge (42"w, standard height, 18" deep) tuned to 28 Hz.

I need a bit warmer weather to get the towers built, Probably the big version.

[zest]

i'm having a problem finding exact values for some of the resistors needed in the crossover for the dm seas center, does anyone see a problem adding resistors in series

[digital desire]

Which resistor? The 17 ohm has been kicked down to a 15 ohm. I would suggest however, if you like to turn it up loud, switching to two 30 ohm and putting them in parallel to share the load.

[zest]

yes thats the one ( 17 ohm ) , i was going to try it both ways, so it is better to go parallel.
thanks
i notice there are a few changes to this bom 17 to 15, a 57 cap to 55 and so forth. Has anyone tried it both ways

[digital desire]

Sounds purty damn good with the revised components.
Dunno how it could be much better!
I would like to buy all those involved a beer! :T

[Dennis Murphy]

yes thats the one ( 17 ohm ) , i was going to try it both ways, so it is better to go parallel.
thanks
i notice there are a few changes to this bom 17 to 15, a 57 cap to 55 and so forth. Has anyone tried it both ways


No need to. The new figures make very little difference, and are actually slightly better. To tell the truth, I was having trouble with a quirk in lspCAD's rounding function, which for reasons I don't understand sometimes prevents you from choosing values ending in 5. I fixed that, though I have no idea how, and I ended up with the new values.

[baniels]

I'm almost done with the towers - sea's version.

I've got an EAD Powermaster 1000 - 200 watts per 5 channels. Unfortunately it is on loan and I'll have to return it soon after I finish my speakers.

I'm starting to consider either designing (somehow) or buying a kit for a stereo tube amplifier.

I'd like to know what you guys recommend for wattage to power these things. Tube amps always seem to have a much lower power rating than solid state - but also many brand names will exaggerate their amp wattage.

To Whomever Knows - All technical hurdles of building aside - what would be an ideal wattage for a tube amp to nicely power the tmww mains?

[digital desire]

IIRC, these are pretty inefficient. That would mean you need something with a bit of gut. Velleman makes a kit that is about 90 watts, monoblock. Maybe that would do it?
http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K8011

[FlashJim]

Hi all,

I've been away for a while, but I'm back. I'm ready to finally build my speakers. :)

1. The links to the CAD drawings seem to be dead. Does anyone have updated links?

2. What surround speakers would compliment these speakers? I've seen a couple of possibilities, but what should I look for?

[dawaro]

Hi all,

I've been away for a while, but I'm back. I'm ready to finally build my speakers. :)

1. The links to the CAD drawings seem to be dead. Does anyone have updated links?

2. What surround speakers would compliment these speakers? I've seen a couple of possibilities, but what should I look for?

I sent you an e-mail with the drawings. The Modula MT gets my vote for a surround since there are designs using either tweeter.

[FlashJim]

I sent you an e-mail with the drawings. The Modula MT gets my vote for a surround since there are designs using either tweeter.

I didn't realize that was you. lol

Thanks a bunch! Long time no talk to. I might have a question or two down the road when I start with my build.

[kgveteran]

How many RS Centers have been built so far ?

[Edge540]

My RS Center in place and angled upward a little. Using RS tweeter

[zest]

links for the cad drawings on the front page still seem to be dead,
i'm really looking forward to this project cant wait to start.

[digital desire]

Hopefully, fryguy will keep this up for a LONG time!
http://fryguy.nevercontent.com/DaytonProject/
The drawings are the cut sheets at the bottom.

One tower "done". I laugh though, I know it will take forever to wrap it with the veneer and finish it! So not really done....Just had to have a listen, you know how it is. :D

[dawaro]

links for the cad drawings on the front page still seem to be dead,
i'm really looking forward to this project cant wait to start.
I will post the drawings on photobucket and update the first post.

[dawaro]

To further lengthen this thread and complicate things there is now a small sealed WMT to be used as a matching surround speaker. Dennis has all but finalized the design. He has listened to it on the LspCAD emulator but wants to do the final voicing with the actual xover. Wants he gives me the final OK I will post the details.

Thomas/Jon would it be best to post this in a new thread?

[Dennis H]

To further lengthen this thread and complicate things there is now a small sealed WMT to be used as a matching surround speaker. Dennis has all but finalized the design. He has listened to it on the LspCAD emulator but wants to do the final voicing with the actual xover. Wants he gives me the final OK I will post the details.
Is it designed with reduced BSC? Most people end up mounting the surrounds on the wall.

[Dennis Murphy]

Is it designed with reduced BSC? Most people end up mounting the surrounds on the wall.

Hi I don't know whether these things make much sense as surrounds. I know that was the original motivation, but do you really need a 3-way surround? Seems like a waste to me. And a logistical nightmare to mount on a wall. To answer your question, the don't have deliberately reduced BSC, but they will sound much less heavy than the WWMT when mounted near a boundary. We're probably talking something like 6 dB less elevation in the 60 Hz region. I really see these as a smaller and cheaper version of the WWMT. They sound at least as good from 50 Hz on up, and with a sub would pretty much be substitutes for the much larger, more expensive WWMT's.

[Jim Holtz]

Hi I don't know whether these things make much sense as surrounds. I know that was the original motivation, but do you really need a 3-way surround? Seems like a waste to me. And a logistical nightmare to mount on a wall. To answer your question, the don't have deliberately reduced BSC, but they will sound much less heavy than the WWMT when mounted near a boundary. We're probably talking something like 6 dB less elevation in the 60 Hz region. I really see these as a smaller and cheaper version of the WWMT. They sound at least as good from 50 Hz on up, and with a sub would pretty much be substitutes for the much larger, more expensive WWMT's.


Details? What is this new mystery 3-way? :unsure:

Jim

[Dennis Murphy]

Details? What is this new mystery 3-way? :unsure:

Jim

Not much of a mystery. You can make one tonight. Just saw your WWMT in two above the first woofer, rip out your crossover, build my modified one and install it, and then seal the bottom. Perfect. I'll listen to mine this week to make sure all is right, and then I'll post the crossover. You, or someone, might model the bass response to see what kind of port would be appropriate. I'm running mine sealed. I'll do some tone sweeps to see what the useful bottom end extension really is in this configuration.

[Jim Holtz]

Not much of a mystery. You can make one tonight. Just saw your WWMT in two above the first woofer, rip out your crossover, build my modified one and install it, and then seal the bottom. Perfect. I'll listen to mine this week to make sure all is right, and then I'll post the crossover. You, or someone, might model the bass response to see what kind of port would be appropriate. I'm running mine sealed. I'll do some tone sweeps to see what the useful bottom end extension really is in this configuration.

Hi Dennis,

I see now. :D I built my pair of the RS 3-ways sealed and I find the bass to be excellent. Utilizing a single RS225 brings the sensitivity down to around 83-84 db or possibly less. A little more horsepower required but a smaller cabinet and probably about $100 less expensive to build.

Cabinet size sealed for a single RS225 enclosure is around 28 liters plus the RS150 enclosure. F3 should be about 50 Hz. per Unibox.

Ported should be 50-60 liters with either a 3"x8.72" (50) or a 3"x10.83" (60) long port which will have a F3 in the upper 20's.

That is all per Unibox of course.

Jim

[Dennis Murphy]

"Cabinet size sealed for a single RS225 enclosure is around 28 liters plus the RS150 enclosure. F3 should be about 50 Hz. per Unibox.

Ported should be 50-60 liters with either a 3"x8.72" (50) or a 3"x10.83" (60) long port which will have a F3 in the upper 20's."
___________________________
Thanks very much. I took the single woofer version for a test drive last night, comparing it with another 8" system (the Salk V3) in a larger ported cabinet. The good news is that it sounds fine--very open, focused, and with no boom. But, as you predict, there's not much happening below 50 hz except at very low drive levels. Boost the power, and the 225 runs out of excursion in this cabinet. I'm not sure what the volume is--a little less than 1/2 of the full size cabinet. I've lost track of the volume parameters--how many liters is the dual 225 ported cabinet? Anyhow, I'll get the schematics posted tonight or tomorrow.

[digital desire]

Well, after listening to these things (complete set of three) for a few days, I can emphatically state this:
If you are on the fence about building these, get off the fence and start now.

I *really* like them! Of course the upgrade was from low-brow speakers, and this was not a hobby for me per se. I knew I wanted something excellent, something that would not be comparable to a product from a big box store. I got it in spades. Never knew how bad my old speakers really were. Shocking. Nice to have a glancing touch of the upper realm. For me it was a small leap of faith not being able to listen before the buying spree began. HT use, using all three is excellent, and just 2 channel is superb as well. The blend with my sealed sub is perfect also.

Many thanks once again to all who contributed to this forum, (and designed!) and answered my silly questions. I still have to finish these, so I may still have a few. :D

[geoffstgermaine]

I've been looking at this thread on and off for a couple of months. I've decided to build the center channel as mine is pretty junky. I'm probably going to build it with a curved top and bottom similar to this http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sonus/images/products/center_01.jpg.

I have ordered all of the parts. I'll have to get to work on the cabinet now.

[digital desire]

Real bummer after listening to these to take them apart again, but the results were worth it!
Surprised even me!