Dayton RS WMTW Center & TMWW Mains

[chasw98]

The RS 3-ways are very high resolution. Much more than they have any right to be considering the cost. My money says, you're hearing more of what's on the recording and very possibly you're hearing your electronics. Yes, they are capable of resolving the differences between equipment.

In my limited experience with them, I believe you. Something in me (part experience, part gut feeling) says they are capable of very high fidelity. I recently listened to some $5,000.00 Vandersteen speakers with McCormack amp, Theta Pre, and Theta DVD. The RS 3 ways will hold their own with good electronics backing them up. That is why I bought a new bottom of the line high end amp this weekend!

I don't want to sound snobby, but a DVD is not a reference source nor is a DVD player a good reference to use for voicing unless it's a high dollar unit that is known to have very good sound qualities or its been modified to achieve that goal. Sorry, but I've had a lot of equipment in my system over the years that caused exactly the kind of issues your talking about and it's always been DVD players etc. that have been the culprits. I don't know whether you're using separates or a receiver to power the speakers with, but If it's a receiver, it would also be common to have somewhat harsh high frequencies.

I think a universal player that will play SACD and DVD-A will get guys like Brian & I in the ballpark assuming the upstream electronics are up to it. Even with my pro amp powering the 3 ways, I am hearing things on CD's and SACD's that the speakers reveal but are in the original recording and there is no amount of equipment that will make it any cleaner. OTOH, when you run across a pristine recording, does it sound ever so good!

A few posts back you remarked how good the test CD sounded. Now the DVD doesn't sound as good. I think it's your recording. BTW, I don't consider the Hell Freezes Over CD to be the ultimate test CD by any means but it isn't bad. Hotel California is the only song on there that I really felt is darn good but I'm not a fan of the Eagles.

Hell freezes over is a DVD that will do 2 channel as Brian listened to or DTS 5.1 that I use to listen to the cuts. There is a world of difference between the 2 formats IMO. It has the capability of sounding very good, but not like some SACD's I am using to listen for things.

I'd suggest that you listen to the speakers through different equipment before making changes. There is a reason some people don't care for low distortion drivers and it's because they suddenly are hearing what is on the CD and what their source equipment really sounds like. The 1st thing to blame are the speakers.

Different equipment can be hard to come by, but most of us have a computer that used with a digital output can be a very hi quality playback device for testing.

I hope my post doesn't come across wrong because I do intend it to be helpful. I'd suggest that you borrow some different electronics before you go further. Also measure and see what the FR is really doing in your room. Maybe your room is extremely reflective and causing the issue.

I actually enjoy your critiquing and have gained some insight and knowledge from it you corn fed snob :rofl: (just kidding, Jim!). I have some issues with my speakers as well that are different from what Brian is posting, but I don't know how to put my finger on it yet. More to come when I can rig up some test scenarios and check some stuff and then put it into words that might give you or Dennis a clue on what to look for, but that is for later. Damn, I wish we lived near each for moments like these. I'd have you over here or my speakers at your place in a heartbeat! Thanks, Jim and don't stop posting.

Chuck

[jonathanb3478]

I listened to my speakers for quite a while on Monday and decided that they sounded very nice on most music, but still a little brighter than I like, but maybe correct, I don't know.

...one exception.

Let me explain; when playing the Eagles Farewell 1 Tour DVD, on Peaceful Easy Feeling Glen Fry sounds like his mike is turned down too low and his voice also sounds fatigued or crackly.

__________________

I should mention that I am listening to the Eagles DVD in stereo mode, no center channel.


Until you mention that your previous speakers did not exhibit this effect, I was >98% sure the effect was a configuration issue with your setup, a mixing issue with the DVD (does it have video, or is it like my Hell Freezes Over DTS-CD w/no video?), or a 5.1 -> Stereo (down-mixing) issue/bug with your player.

Interesting.

Definitely try swapping out for different equipment, if that is a viable option. What are you running now (system breakdown)?

[Brian Walter]

Hi Brian,

I'm going to toss out a few thoughts for what they're worth.

The RS 3-ways are very high resolution. Much more than they have any right to be considering the cost. My money says, you're hearing more of what's on the recording and very possibly you're hearing your electronics. Yes, they are capable of resolving the differences between equipment.



Jim you could very well be right about this. I'm coming to some of the same conclusions, that either my source has problems, it's the recording, or a combination of both. The fact that some of the recordings sound excellent leads me more towards thinking that the recording is the problem.

The problem I'm struggling with is that my source equipments doesn't seem to call attention to itself on the test CD, it actually sounds really good. But on the Eagles Farewell 1 Tour DVD, which I previously considered to be a very good recording, some of the tracks don't sound right. That's why I was asking for input from someone else who has the same DVD. What I'm hearing may well be a problem with the recording that was masked by the previous speakers. In comparison to the Hell Freezes Over CD, my impression is that the Farewell Tour DVD is much cleaner, but being a live performance, there could easily be portions where the mixing is not as good as it could be.

Back to the songs on the DVD that don't sound correct, it could be that the 5.1 recording has most of Glen Fry's voice recorded on the center channel and when listening to it in stereo, it may not sound right. But I didn't notice this on my old speakers. Maybe tonight I'll put my old speakers back in and give it another listen. There is no question that the RS speakers are far more revealing than my old speakers.

I'm at work at the moment, so I don't have the model numbers of my equipment, but it's not high end, more like high end cheap stuff. I've got a Dennon receiver that's about 6 years old and cost about $1000, and my DVD player is an Onkyo that's about 5 years old that cost about $350. The DVD is being run digital out to the receiver, so it uses the receivers DA converters. When I swapped in a cheap DVD player, I ran it analog to the receiver, and the results were mostly the same, maybe slightly better with the cheap DVD player.

I would like to get new amps for the front channels, as all 3 will be 4 ohm speakers when I'm' done, and this may be taxing on my receiver. Going with a separate power amp will also allow me to go to a custom active crossover between the RS 3-ways and the sub. Any suggestions for a good 3 channel amp? I'm really not up on higher end amps.

Thanks to everyone who has responded, I'll get this sorted out before too long. I just don't want to run out and buy all new electronics just to find out that I've got a problem with my crossover or simply bad recordings. I don't have a good benchmark for comparsions, so it's a little difficult to sort things out.

Thanks again,

Brian Walter

[jonathanb3478]

I would like to get new amps for the front channels, as all 3 will be 4 ohm speakers when I'm' done, and this may be taxing on my receiver.

...

Any suggestions for a good 3 channel amp?

My suggestion is to try all three 4-ohm fronts with the receiver, first.

The Onkyo SR602 I got for my living room HT system has been running 4-ohm fronts, w/ all four rears @ 6-ohm, and it has done everything I have asked of it. It still has another 2 months left of its 12 month warranty, and is certainly not a bad unit, as far as $250 refurbs go! I suspect your Denon could do as well/better, since I consider a $1k Denon to be in a higher class than my Onkyo and would expect a higher level of performance out of it.

Don't sell it short too early!

[Brian Walter]

Thanks Jonathan, the Denon is working fine so far and when I first bought it I sent an email to Denon asking about 4 ohm speakers and if I recall correctly, they said as long as I wasn't running all 4 ohm speakers and cranking it all the way up, it shouldn't be a problem. There were 3 reasons I was thinking of going with separate amps for the front 3 channels: this would allow actively rolling off the RS225's; I could have more headroom with bigger amps; and since the quality of my electronics has come into question, new amps could elminate that as well. But if I don't need to buy new amps I could spend the money on something else, like a bigger sub or better CD/DVD player.

Brian

[yousuredo2]

Brian, or anyone who knows...
those legs you used are on close out at pe...
when they are gone, they are gone, this I know...
but who, if anyone offers the same/simular style legs...I havn't seen 'em anywhere ?
for use with future projects...

Brian
I am using your brace templet, but modifing alittle...
and wondering if you left one side of the strip at a 90 degree, and the other modified ?

[Brian Walter]

Brian, or anyone who knows...
those legs you used are on close out at pe...
when they are gone, they are gone, this I know...
but who, if anyone offers the same/similar style legs...I haven't seen 'em anywhere ?
for use with future projects...

Brian
I am using your brace template, but modifying alittle...
and wondering if you left one side of the strip at a 90 degree, and the other modified ?

I have no idea where to get similar type or style toe spikes/legs.

The strips I used for my speakers are beveled both sides of the strip. It actually works out rather well this way. All you need to do is set you table saw at 1.25 degrees, or so, and set your rip guide to cut a 3/4" wide strip. Then cut the first strip and toss it to the side (you won't use this one), now flip your piece of mdf over (front to back) keeping the beveled side you just cut toward the rip guide and cut another strip. This strip will be tapered equally on each side. Next you flip the mdf again and cut the next strip, and so on and so on and so on until you're arms are tired. Take a rest and do it some more until you are done.

Note that the first and last strips will need to have a special bevel on one side. Also, as you get close to the last strip, measure the distance you've got left to see how you will come out with the last strip. You don't want the last one to be too small or it will be very hard to cut. What I did was put the last one inplace (with the special bevel) and then filled in the space between. You will probably need to make a couple slightly undersized or oversized strips to make everything fit properly. I had to use a hand plane to taper the last piece to get a good tight fit. You will find that you can place a strip on edge in the miter slot of your table saw to help hold it while you plane it down.

I'm sure there are better ways of doing this, so feel free to experiment. If you've got any other questions feel free to ask.

Brian

[jonathanb3478]

and since the quality of my electronics has come into question

Actually, the question (as I saw it) was whether or not to question the quality of your electronics. I believe said question was answered in the negative once you let us know what you were running.

I think people wanted (mostly) to make sure you weren't running some 90's Fisher Dolby Pro-Logic receiver with the $19.99 Chinese-special DVD player from the last "Day after Thanksgiving Super Sale", or some such.

I do not believe anyone here thinks that a mid-level Denon is going to cause any kind of "brightness", or recessed imaging. Especially when it is handling D/A conversion, not the 5-year old DVD player. If anyone does, feel free to chime in. ;)

[Spanky Ham]

They are finished....... for now :W
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/DSCN3784.jpg
They sound very, very, very good. The soundstage is as wide as I have ever heard before. I believe Jim Holtz said they will sound even better with better electronics behind them, so I bought an amp to drive them. Should be here in week or so. Can't wait. After a short break to enjoy these speakers, I will tackle the center channel. I am going to try and get some graphs today of these in my room and of the Ascends I previously used. Just curious to see the difference. Thanks to Dennis & Jim & everyone else with their tips and tricks. :T BTW, the wife thinks they are beautiful and has said they can stay! Whew ;x(

Chuck

You have got to be kidding me. I joined this forum just for this. You veneered them, after I sat right there in your living room with these speakers begging to be painted. I had the gun out in the van (ok, so it was locked :W ). We could have given it a nice '70's theme like "The Partridge Family" or "Dark Side of the Moon". Maybe your wife would have liked lavender or mauve. Even a Nascar theme would have been better. Anything but veneer. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

We listened to these for about an hour or two. They are every bit as good as people have said. They might be better than my PSB Stratus Golds. I would not be surprised at all if they were. Since the PSBs were Stereophile Class B, does this mean these are B rated or dare I say it A rated? Dave Wilson would roll over in his grave if he heard that (oh wait, he is not dead yet :B ). I have a job in Boca and I could probably schedule it on a weekend. We could do a comparison between the PSBs and Chuck's speakers. What do you say Chas?

P.S. - I have done some more research on DIY cables. I think I have a less expensive alternative to the Canare. We can talk about it later.

[chasw98]

You have got to be kidding me. I joined this forum just for this. You veneered them, after I sat right there in your living room with these speakers begging to be painted. I had the gun out in the van (ok, so it was locked :W ).

We could do a comparison between the PSBs and Chuck's speakers. What do you say Chas?

P.S. - I have done some more research on DIY cables. I think I have a less expensive alternative to the Canare. We can talk about it later.

I have other plans for the gun!

I would love to have your PSB's here to compare.

And tell me about your Canare "killer".

Chuck

[m1ke323]

I have a HK AVR-225 that only has (55 watts x 5) for 8ohms. I know HK's are all underrated, their top of the line is only rated at 85 watts per channel. But I think I will need an external amp to drive these speakers that way I would like them to play. Are there any recommendations. Just making sure, but these are 4 ohms speakers correct.

Any recommendations? I have been looking at the Rotel 1080 but would prefer not to spend that much, unless I can find it for $500. I know a place where I can get a Aragon 2004 MKII, which does (100x2 at 8ohms, and 200x2 at 4ohms). I can get that one for $200, I think thats a good price. Any other recomendations?

[technimac]

when playing the Eagles Farewell 1 Tour DVD, on Peaceful Easy Feeling Glen Fry sounds like his mike is turned down too low and his voice also sounds fatigued or crackly

Brian,
Finally I had a chance to listen to many cuts on this DVD. Interestingly enough, with PCM Glen Fry's vocal on "Peaceful Easy Feeling" are very pronounced on the center channel (Audax HT WMTW) - more so than on the L&R Mains. But when played in DTS 5.1, the vocals are primarily produced in the Mains. The center was not pumping out the vocals like it did in PCM.
I didn't notice the voice characteristics that you described above. What were the DVD audio settings when you noticed this "recessive voicing" on that track?
I idi notice, that with DTS 5.1, the horn section was giving my L&R surrounds a very serious workout. And the trumpet prelude to Hotel California surprisingly was very pronounced in the rear speakers. Part of that may have been reflection from the rear wall of the auditorium during recording. But it was noticeable.
Overall though, that is one very nicely engineered and mixed DVD.
Bruce

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks Jonathan, the Denon is working fine so far and when I first bought it I sent an email to Denon asking about 4 ohm speakers and if I recall correctly, they said as long as I wasn't running all 4 ohm speakers and cranking it all the way up, it shouldn't be a problem. There were 3 reasons I was thinking of going with separate amps for the front 3 channels: this would allow actively rolling off the RS225's; I could have more headroom with bigger amps; and since the quality of my electronics has come into question, new amps could elminate that as well. But if I don't need to buy new amps I could spend the money on something else, like a bigger sub or better CD/DVD player.

Brian

Hi Brian,

Sorry for not responding sooner and thank you for not misunderstanding my remarks. I'm not familiar with Denon receivers but I do know they are well thought of so I think it's safe to rule out that as the source of the brightness you're hearing. Next up is your CD/DVD players. Any chance you can borrow a different CD player from a friend or relative to listen to? Also invest in a couple CD's that are considered reference quality and listen to them closely on different equipment and see if the sound changes.

I'm guessing based on your process of elimination that it's a combination of your player and the recordings. That's the trouble with accurate speakers. Good equipment and recordings sound wonderful and poor recordings sound just like you think they would, poor. :W If your previous speakers weren't very high resolution, it's sometimes disappointing listening to recordings that you've enjoyed in the past.

A few recordings that are very high resolution:

Patricia Barber - Cafe Blue
Lyle Lovett - Joshua Judges Ruth
Acoustic Alchemy - Greatest hits
Fourplay - Heartfelt
Sarah McLachlan - After Glow (not the live version)
Jennifer Warnes - The Hunter
Chris Rea - The Road to Hell
Dave Gruisen - Homage to Duke
Robert Lucas - Completely Blue
Telarc - Got the Blues
Telarc - Got more Blues
Keb Mo' - Keb Mo'
Buddy Guy - Blues Singer

There are lots more but that should give you a sampling that might hit your listening tastes somewhat.

Hope that helps!

Best regards,

Jim

[jonathanb3478]

I'm not familiar with Denon receivers but I do know they are well thought of so I think it's safe to rule out that as the source of the brightness you're hearing. Next up is your CD/DVD players.

He did mention that the Denon does the D/A conversion. I don't think that any functioning CD/DVD "transport" would cause excessive brightness, or a recessed vocal, during the D/A conversion and channel routing processes in the receiver. Personally, I would rule out that Onkyo DVD/CD source as a potential contributor based on that.

As far as what might be causing the vocal issue with that song on the Eagles DVD, I am well and truely stumped. If Brian still says it is speaker dependant, I would not even know where to start to figure that one out. Have you confirmed this, Brian? You did not seem 100% sure the issue was not present with the other speakers, when you originally mentioned hearing it. Just checking.

[Brian Walter]

Thanks for all help from everyone. I've been busy trying to get SW or JustLMS up and running. I had somehow broken off a leg on the chip amp that I use for testing. The amp is built into my Wallin Jig, so it is a little hard to separate. I've also had my issues with getting everything to work together, but hopefully by the end of the day I'll have measurements.

Bruce, you indicated that you listened to Peacefull Easy Feeling and the vocal was very strong on the center channel. I don't have a center channel and rely on however the receiver decides to mix this. I'm wondering if this is somehow set wrong. I've looked through most everything, but I'm not an expert in setting this stuff up, including making the correct selections on the DVD it'self. Can you set up your system to play the song in stereo? I would try an add a center channel to see how it sounds with one, but I don't have anything that sounds halfway decent to use as a center that is shielded.

Jonathan, I'm not 100% sure that what I'm hearing on the DVD is speaker dependant. I didn't notice this prior to getting the new speakers, but I may have inadvertently changed a setting when I switched to the new speakers. I did do an A/B comparison once, and the recessed vocal was also apparent on the old speakers, but not nearly so noticeable. I think that with the lower resolution on the old speakers Glens voice was much smoother so I didn't notice it. Now, his voice seems stressed or fatigued, which it may well be and simply shows up with the better speakers.

Thanks Jim for the list of reference CD's I think I'll go out and pick up a couple of them and have a listen.

Finally, according to my calculations, the modification I did to the crossover should have reduced the tweeter level by about 0.9 db and with this reduction I like the ballance much better. But as I pointed out earlier, my brother thought the speakers could have been brighter, so maybe this is just a personal taste issue that may change as I get used to the new speakers and get better music to listen to.

I don't know anybody that has any better CD/DVD players I can borrow to listen with. My son has my old Yamaha CD player that I gave him after I bought the Onkyo DV-C601 DVD player and my brother uses a HTPC for music. My receiver is a Denon AVR 3200, by the way.

Thanks again for everybodys input on this. If I was to make any guesses right now, I'd guess that something is set wrong or mixed wrong when listening to the Eagles DVD and that the brightness I heard initially is mostly a personal taste thing which may in part be due to my current music selection. I' guessing the speakers are just fine.

Brian

[chasw98]

I have read and reread this thread and don't seem to find a definitive answer as to whether or not the edge of the baffle on the WMTW Center should be rounded or not.

01) Should it be rounded?

02) If it should be rounded, 1/2" or 3/4"?

03) What should be rounded, all 4 sides, 2 vertical, or 2 horizontal?

I am going to wrap veneer around this one like I did with my WWMT's and really hope the answer is..... yes, 3/4" rounded on the sides (vertical, 12 1/2" height). If not, I will live with it, but I have seen it rounded on all 4 sides, and rounded on top and bottom, and not rounded. I just can't find the answer in here anywhere. Thanks.

Chuck

[dawaro]

I have read and reread this thread and don't seem to find a definitive answer as to whether or not the edge of the baffle on the WMTW Center should be rounded or not.

01) Should it be rounded?

02) If it should be rounded, 1/2" or 3/4"?

03) What should be rounded, all 4 sides, 2 vertical, or 2 horizontal?

I am going to wrap veneer around this one like I did with my WWMT's and really hope the answer is..... yes, 3/4" rounded on the sides (vertical, 12 1/2" height). If not, I will live with it, but I have seen it rounded on all 4 sides, and rounded on top and bottom, and not rounded. I just can't find the answer in here anywhere. Thanks.

Chuck

I am not sure that it is required but the original cabinets that were sent to Dennis for the measurements were rounded over.

[Brian Walter]

Ok, for what it's worth, here is the response I measured for my RS-TMWW's. Note that measurments were taken with an uncalibrated Panasonic mic capsule using JustMLS. This measurement is with my tweeter padding of approximately 1 db. I also tried measuring with the woofer phase reversed and got a big hole from about 200 hz to 500 hz.

[Jim Holtz]

Ok, for what it's worth, here is the response I measured for my RS-TMWW's. Note that measurments were taken with an uncalibrated Panasonic mic capsule using JustMLS. This measurement is with my tweeter padding of approximately 1 db. I also tried measuring with the woofer phase reversed and got a big hole from about 200 hz to 500 hz.

Hi Brian,

After seeing the FR I can certainly understand them being bright. Something isn't right in the crossover. I'm wondering if the measured values match what is marked on the inductor/cap? Something isn't right. Dennis is off line during his move. I'd send him an email with the FR graph and see if he can give some guidance. I suspect he'll know exactly what to check.

Email me and we can discuss you stopping by the house. I'd really enjoy you coming for a listening session. I do have a 2 week vacation to California scheduled soon, a 30th birthday celebration for one of my sons and a weekend get away over the Labor Day weekend but I'm pretty open other than that. Your brother lives in the Des Moines area doesn't he?

Jim

[chasw98]

I ordered the crossover components for the WMTW center channel and PE is out of stock on the 4.7 mH/16 GA. inductor. They do have the 5.0 mH/16 GA inductor in stock, so I bought it. IF I had a meter that would measure inductance, I could unwind the coil until the meter read 4.7, but I don't have the meter. I do have Fluke and Simpson voltmeters and an HP signal generator. The DCR of the 4.7 is .231/ ohms and the 5.0 is .246 ohms. Can I just unwind the coil until the DC resistance is .231? Will I be in the ballpark at that point? And, yes, my Fluke will measure that low. Or is the circuit not that critical to worry about the difference between 4.7 and 5.0 mH? Thanks.

Chuck

[Brian Walter]

Hi Brian,

After seeing the FR I can certainly understand them being bright. Something isn't right in the crossover. I'm wondering if the measured values match what is marked on the inductor/cap? Something isn't right. Dennis is off line during his move. I'd send him an email with the FR graph and see if he can give some guidance. I suspect he'll know exactly what to check.

Jim

Jim, I did check the value of all the caps and resistors, but not the coils. My multimeter measures caps and resistors, but not coils. If I get Speaker workshop working again, I can use it to measure the coils.

Brian

[Brian Walter]

I ordered the crossover components for the WMTW center channel and PE is out of stock on the 4.7 mH/16 GA. inductor. They do have the 5.0 mH/16 GA inductor in stock, so I bought it. IF I had a meter that would measure inductance, I could unwind the coil until the meter read 4.7, but I don't have the meter. I do have Fluke and Simpson voltmeters and an HP signal generator. The DCR of the 4.7 is .231/ ohms and the 5.0 is .246 ohms. Can I just unwind the coil until the DC resistance is .231? Will I be in the ballpark at that point? And, yes, my Fluke will measure that low. Or is the circuit not that critical to worry about the difference between 4.7 and 5.0 mH? Thanks.

Chuck

Chuck, if both coils are wound using the same bobbin, that would get you pretty close I would think. If you want to go through a little math you could measure it manually, but that might not be any more accurate to simply unwind until you get the measured DC resistance the same as the correct coil.

Brian

[chasw98]

Hi Brian:
Both units are the same except the amount of wire wrapped around the bobbin. It will be pretty easy to setup my meter and calibrate a zero point and unwind till the resistance drops to .231 ohms. 16 gauge wire has about .00473 ohm per foot, so unwinding approx 3.17 feet of wire from the bobbin will get it close. Maybe I should invest in an inductance bridge? Arggghhh!!!!!

[Brian Walter]

You could us Speaker Workshop to measure the inductance if you want to invest the time to build a jig or some probes and a lot of time for the learning curve. I used to be able to do impedance measurements with SW, but I haven't quite gotten it working correctly since I changes sound cards.

Brian

[opt-e]

I ordered the crossover components for the WMTW center channel and PE is out of stock on the 4.7 mH/16 GA. inductor. They do have the 5.0 mH/16 GA inductor in stock, so I bought it. IF I had a meter that would measure inductance, I could unwind the coil until the meter read 4.7, but I don't have the meter.

Zaph explains how to do this on his website (http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker18.html):

For unwinding a coil, the important thing to remember is number of turns is not a linear relationship to the inductance. Unwinding a .10 halfway does not equal .05 for example. Go to Lalena's inductor calculator (http://www.lalena.com/audio/calculator/inductor/), enter the gauge, spool length and spool inside diameter for both a .10 and a .08 to find the number of turns for each one. Subtract the two and you'll know how many turns to unwind from a .10 to make it a .08. Note that this is very accurate but only works for air coil. Before you start unwinding, you can do a sanity check on the .10 by confirming known numbers like the DCR and outside diameter, with what the Lalena calculator shows up.

[Brian Walter]

Anthony, unfortunately, Chucks coils are iron core, so according to Zaph, his method won't work. But I'm sure it will also get you pretty close.

Brian

[chasw98]

The physical size of the 5.0 and the 4.7 are the same. If I don't have any luck measuring and adjusting on my own, I will probably be close anyway. Then I can wait for the part to come in stock and order it at a later time. It is only a $10.00 part. But I appreciate all the help and I will learn how to measure inductors in the process. I have already found some ideas using a signal generator, voltmeter, and a resistor to calculate the inductance.

[opt-e]

Anthony, unfortunately, Chucks coils are iron core, so according to Zaph, his method won't work. But I'm sure it will also get you pretty close.

Oh whoops missed that. :oops:

[Brian Walter]

Dennis asked that I take a measurement of some other speaker to see how the measurements compared with the TMWW. As Dennis is still without email, I thought I might as well post it here so others could see it as well, since it might have a bearing on his design. The measurement below is for Mike McCalls SEP-1 with the same conditions as the TMWW measurements. Note that there is still a rise in the tweeter level, but not quite the same as with the TMWW. These measurements were taken inside at approximately 29.25" from the baffle.

Brian

[jonathanb3478]

The measurement below is for Mike McCalls SEP-1 with the same conditions as the TMWW measurements.

What I see is a "suckout" in this latest one between 1.5K and 3.5K. Since that whole "out of control at the very top end" thing is on both graphs, seems like it would be a measurement anomaly of some kind to my clueless self.

[Jim Holtz]

Dennis asked that I take a measurement of some other speaker to see how the measurements compared with the TMWW. As Dennis is still without email, I thought I might as well post it here so others could see it as well, since it might have a bearing on his design. The measurement below is for Mike McCalls SEP-1 with the same conditions as the TMWW measurements. Note that there is still a rise in the tweeter level, but not quite the same as with the TMWW. These measurements were taken inside at approximately 29.25" from the baffle.

Brian

Hi Brian,

I'm no expert at measurements but I agree with Jonathon. The mike looks like it needs calibrated. Your description of the sound of the SEP-1's and the elevated response above 10K don't agree. The SEP-1 should be very bright based on the measurements.

Jim

[Brian Walter]

I think I agree with Jonathan as well. The SEP-1's do have a slight suck out in the 1.5k to 3.5k region, which would tend to make them sound dark. The standard response of the Panasonic Mic capsule does show an average rise in response of around 3db above 10k, so both designs could very well be flat above 10k.

One other thing to consider is that my response measurement for the RS-TMWW is with the tweeter padded an additional db or so. So without the modification, everything above 2k or where ever Dennis crossed would be about 1db higher.

I could throw in a generic calibration file for the Panasonic mic capsule, but I doubt I'll go to the expense to have it calibrated or to buy a calibrated mic. The Panasonic mic capsules are almost ruler flat to 10k, and with a generic calibration file will probably get me within a couple db above that. Close enough for most of my uses.

Brian

[Dennis Murphy]

Hi Brian A miracle for sure--I'm back on line. Altogether now--in unison and with much vigah--VERIZON SUCKS! I make my living in consumer protection, but I have never encountered a company with so many incompetent employees. This is the second move I have had to make in 7 months, and the second episode of pure hell thanks to Verizon. My main regret is that I didn't contract with a Washington Post reporter to follow me through the process--a Pulitzer Prize series article without doubt.

As for your measurements--thanks for taking the trouble. I guess we can agree that there is a mic calibration problem. Which doesn't really make you any happier with my speaker. I still believe the customer is always right. I'm sure we can adjust the voicing to your liking--just e-mail me and we'll work on it until you're happy.

[chasw98]

Like a kid at Christmas, I couldn't resist seeing what the final product will look like. I got the rest of the drivers and crossover parts today. With a little luck, I will be testing the Center on Sunday. I will have to say Jim is right. The better the electronics, the better these sound. I have installed my 3 channel Cinenova amp and played some very good recordings directly through it and the speakers are very happy to cooperate. The H1212 tweeter got a little smoother. mid bass tightened up, all around audio goodness. Thanks, Dennis, I can't wait for the H1212 XO for the center.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/DSCN3804.jpg

Chuck

PS - The black around the drivers is where I spray painted to blacken the rebase.

[m1ke323]

I am ordering my XO components and while looking at the BOM I see the R3 component for Dennis's TMWW design has a part number of 004-3 but that is a 3 ohm resistor and the BOM calls for a 1 ohm resistor. What resistor should I be buying for the R3 component?

Also, does someone have a list of what parts are cheaper at madisound and what is cheaper at PE? The price values on this BOM seem to be pretty off, either that or PE just jacked up their prices alot. The XO price on the BOM is 195.00 and right now the current prices at PE add up to 242.70.

Thanks for the help.

Mike

[Dougie085]

RS 3-Way BOM

Parts Express:

Drivers:
(4) RS225 woofers 295-366 $40.80 each $163.20
(2) RS150 woofers 295-362 $28.55 each $57.10

Caps:
(4) 100 uF Jantzen caps 027-956 $21.70 each $86.80
(2) 15 uF Jantzen caps 027-936 $5.13 each $10.26
(2) 3.9 uF Jantzen caps 027-922 $2.48 each $4.96
(2) 8.2 uF Jantzen caps 027-930 $3.76 each $7.52

Inductors:
(2) .4 mH Inductors 255-224 $2.92 each $5.84
(2) 1.2 mH Inductors 255-424 $8.48 each $16.96


Resistors:
(2) 6.0 Mills Resistors 005-6 $3.50 each $7.00
(2) 4.0 Mills Resistors 005-4 $3.50 each $7.00
(2) 1.0 Mills Resistors 005-1 $3.50 each $7.00
(2) 3.0 Mills Resistors 005-3 $3.50 each $7.00
(4) 10.0 Mills Resistors 005-10 $3.50 each $14.00

Sub Total $394.64

Madisound:

Drivers:
(2) 27TBFC/G $32.80 each $65.60

Inductors:
(2) 3.0 Sledgehammer steel laminate $9.65 each $19.30
(2) .33 Sidewinder Inductors $3.65 each $7.30
(2) 1.0 Sledgehammer 16AWG $6.75 $13.50
(2) .1 Sidewinder Inductors 16AWG $2.75 $5.50

Sub Total $111.20

Final total $505.84

[Dougie085]

Or the Economy BOM

RS 3-Way Economy B.O.M.

Parts Express:

Drivers:
(4) RS225 woofers 295-366 $40.80 each $163.20
(2) RS150 woofers 295-362 $28.55 each $57.10

Caps:
(4) 100 uF Dayton caps 027-447 $19.51 each $78.04
(2) 15 uF Dayton caps 027-432 $4.10 each $8.20
(2) 8.2 uF Dayton caps 027-426 $2.75 each $5.50
(2) 3.9 uF Solen caps 027-548 $2.50 each $5.00

Inductors:
(2) 1.2 mH Inductors 255-424 $8.48 each $16.96
(2) .4 mH Inductors 255-224 $2.92 each $5.84

Sub Total $339.84

Madisound:

Drivers:
(2) 27TBFC/G $32.80 each $65.60

Inductors:
(2) 3.0 Sledgehammer steel laminate $9.65 each $19.30
(2) 1.0 Sledgehammer 16AWG $6.75 $13.50
(2) .33 Sidewinder Inductors $3.65 each $7.30
(2) .1 Sidewinder Inductors 16AWG $2.75 $5.50

Resistors:
(2) 6.0 Eagle Resistors $1.00 each $2.00
(2) 4.0 Eagle Resistors $1.00 each $2.00
(2) 1.0 Eagle Resistors $1.00 each $2.00
(2) 3.0 Eagle Resistors $1.00 each $2.00
(4) 10.0 Eagle Resistors $1.00 each $4.00


Sub Total $123.20

Final total $463.04


Better to just spend the extra 30 somthing bucks though :)

[jonathanb3478]

Yeah, I just went over the BOM, as I should be able to start ordering parts pretty soon after I get back from my friend's wedding in UT.

I have built many BOMs from various online projects in various Excel spreadsheets of late. I am going to make some speakers for friends and family, so I wanted to know exactly how much various projects would run me. When looking at the std/economy BOMs here, I noticed one thing real quick. Now that I have finished checking, I do not see any issues with the BOM values vs the xo schematics. I expect all the prices will be different now, as well.

The thing that stood out to me immediately, was that I did not recall there were "Sledgehammer 16ga" inductors available at Madisound. So, I checked. There are not. 15ga for Sledgehammer, and 16ga for Sidewinder. Also, the price in the BOM is off, regardless. I expect that parts costs will increase. I am certainly not complaining that the BOM prices are "off". It is just that I cannot confirm which part to use, when I find the description is a bit vague to me, by getting the one that is the same price as the one in the BOM. I would go off the XO schematic, but I did not find a DCR for L2021, as R2021 seems to be a legit resistor, not a DCR value. Not at 4ohm. I believe the "1mH Sledgehammer 16ga" referenced in the BOMs are the L2021 part referenced in the Mid crossover by Dennis for the Seas tweeter.

Just curious. I do not suppose anyone who has bought all this already could login to their Madisound and PE accounts and copy/past their invoices? That would be the easiest solution I can think of. Of course it assumes that Madisound and PE have customer accounts that let you do so.

Anyway, seems like now might be an appropriate time to update/clarify the two BOMs for the Dennis/Seas version. Just my $.02.

[jonathanb3478]

OK, maybe this is a stupid question, but I cannot figure out the answer. Or find it in earlier posts.

The Woofer XO posted in #258 shows one woofer, one 3mH inductor, and one 115uF cap. The BOM shows only enough parts count for one pair of these XOs. So, one per cabinet. My question is, how do you connect both woofers to that XO, when only one woofer is shown in the schematic? Just connect them in parallel, with the polarity of both kept as shown in the XO schematic?

Clarification requested, please...

[dawaro]

Just connect them in parallel, with the polarity of both kept as shown in the XO schematic?

Clarification requested, please...

That is correct.

If you look at the 1st post in the thread it has been updated with zip files for each design. They contain the BOM, schematic, ect.

[Brian Walter]

In going over the BOM it is not clear what inductor is being specified for the 3.0 mh part. I used the 15 ga. steel laminate from Madisound which sells for $12.05, not $9.65. Also, Dennis advised doubling up on resistor R02021 in the midrange section. That means you would need to wire 2 - 8 ohm resistors in parallel in stead of using the 4 ohm resistor specified. So you should omit the 2 - 4 ohm resistors and add 4 - 8 ohm resistors to the BOM.

Brian Walter

[dawaro]

In going over the BOM it is not clear what inductor is being specified for the 3.0 mh part. I used the 15 ga. steel laminate from Madisound which sells for $12.05, not $9.65. Brian Walter


The BOM is for Parts Express materials

[Dennis Murphy]

[QUOTE=Brian Walter]In going over the BOM it is not clear what inductor is being specified for the 3.0 mh part. I used the 15 ga. steel laminate from Madisound which sells for $12.05, not $9.65. Also,

I use the Madisound steel laminates for large series inductor applications. But it's not critical.

[m1ke323]

Brian,

Why did Dennis suggest you replace 2 4ohm resistors with 4 8ohm resistors? Was this part of you voicing issue that he suggested this?

Also, I never got an answer on if the R3 resistor was 1 ohm or 3 ohms? I only ask becuase all the plans and descriptions call for a 1ohm but the part # is for the 3 ohm.

Mike

[jonathanb3478]

Why did Dennis suggest you replace 2 4ohm resistors with 4 8ohm resistors? Was this part of you voicing issue that he suggested this?

Actually, I recall that Jim Holtz mentioned this due to the amount of power going through those resistors under the right circumstances. The increased power handling was mentioned as an item of "overkill" that might be useful. IIRC

It does not change the effective value, so it is not a voicing item.

[jonathanb3478]

The BOM is for Parts Express materials

Not the ones listed in 258 and 261 (std and economy) for Dennis' Seas tweeter xover. Some of it is Madisound and the rest is from PE. This is likely due to the fact that you need to order the Seas tweeter from Madisound, anyway.

I see the ones in the first post are different than the ones in Jim's original posts, however. It seems those are for Dennis' RS28A version. Interesting to see how many of the values are so different between the two.

Wow, I hadn't been to the first page of this thread in a while. :T

Jim points out that Dennis thinks you should not obsess about the inductor selection; I will use a Sledgehammer for my 1mH inductor. Close enough. :D

And, with that, I find the economy BOM is now $483.98 (plus shipping). That is not bad. Not bad, at all.

[Dennis Murphy]

Actually, I recall that Jim Holtz mentioned this due to the amount of power going through those resistors under the right circumstances. The increased power handling was mentioned as an item of "overkill" that might be useful. IIRC

It does not change the effective value, so it is not a voicing item.



And that's the truth. Dennis.

[Dennis Murphy]

[Also, I never got an answer on if the R3 resistor was 1 ohm or 3 ohms? I only ask becuase all the plans and descriptions call for a 1ohm but the part # is for the 3 ohm.]


Are you talking about the series resistor in the tweeter L-pad? That's 3 ohms.
I hope the plans don't have that wrong.

[Brian Walter]

The BOM is for Parts Express materials

I was refering to the BOM just listed in posts 1100 and 1101 which clearly are listing the 3 mh inductor as being purchased from Madisond. I don't know about the original BOM.

Brian

[Brian Walter]

Brian,

Why did Dennis suggest you replace 2 4ohm resistors with 4 8ohm resistors? Was this part of you voicing issue that he suggested this?

Also, I never got an answer on if the R3 resistor was 1 ohm or 3 ohms? I only ask becuase all the plans and descriptions call for a 1ohm but the part # is for the 3 ohm.

Mike

Mike, I think Jonathan and Dennis both answere the first question. On your second question, could you point us to the place that references R3 as being a 1 ohm resistor as well as where the part # is called out. I'm not sure where you are seeing this. Please reference a post # so we can check it out for certain.

Brian

[marcusicp]

Mike, I think Jonathan and Dennis both answere the first question. On your second question, could you point us to the place that references R3 as being a 1 ohm resistor as well as where the part # is called out. I'm not sure where you are seeing this. Please reference a post # so we can check it out for certain.

Brian

The part # for R3 on the TWMM mains BOM is for the 3 ohm and the plan calls for a 1 ohm.

I hope it is 1 ohm because my PE order just shipped...

[seattle_ice]

The part # for R3 on the TWMM mains BOM is for the 3 ohm and the plan calls for a 1 ohm.

I hope it is 1 ohm because my PE order just shipped...

Hmmm...

The R3 part # on Dennis' BOM is 004-1. That shows up as a 1 ohm non-inductive resistor for me on a PE search.

[m1ke323]

I appreciate everyones help on the R3 component resister. My BOM had the part number of 004-3 (the 3 ohm resister) but the plan and everything else called for the 1 ohm resister (004-1). It appears as though the front page now has an updated BOM with the correct part number.

I will be placing my order Sunday from parts express. I was going just to buy everything from there. But I had read a lot about the madisound steel laminate caps and didn't know if those were better or what. So if anyone can think of anything that i should be buying at madisound as opposed to PE, I would appreciate it.

On another note, my speaker building is going very very well. The rounded frame was a little trickier them I thought it would be, but it is all turning out very well. I also finally decided on my finish. Im going to go with a dark cherry veneer (I have a full cherry living room set and I really like that finish, so I am going to try to find some pieces very similar). I will be making a grill cover attached using magnets under the veneer. I just haven't decided if I should paint the baffle black yet. What do you guys think?

Thanks for the help
Mike

[BobEllis]

Mike - Make up a few test panels with cherry veneer on MDF to develop your finishing technique before finishing your speakers. It will save a lot of heartache if your first attempt comes up blotchy. There is lots information on finishing cherry out there, it can be tricky to get even stain color.

[Jim Holtz]

Brian,

Why did Dennis suggest you replace 2 4ohm resistors with 4 8ohm resistors? Was this part of you voicing issue that he suggested this?

Also, I never got an answer on if the R3 resistor was 1 ohm or 3 ohms? I only ask becuase all the plans and descriptions call for a 1ohm but the part # is for the 3 ohm.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Dennis and I are both confused about which resistor and which version of the RS 3-ways you're building. Are you building the RS28 or Seas H1212 versions? Where in the crossover is the resistor you're asking about?

Posts 258 and 261 should have correct BOM's for the Seas version. Both are on page 6 of this thread. The prices may be a a bit different but not a great difference.

The only difference would be if you wanted to parallel two 8 ohm instead of a single 4 ohm resistor in the R2021 position on the RS150 crossover for better power handling. If you plan on cranking them at 100+ SPL's constantly, it'd be a good idea to do so. IMHO, normal 80 - 90 DB volumes will never be a problem.


Jim

[dawaro]

Hi Mike,

Dennis and I are both confused about which resistor and which version of the RS 3-ways you're building. Are you building the RS28 or Seas H1212 versions? Where in the crossover is the resistor you're asking about?

Posts 258 and 261 should have correct BOM's for the Seas version. Both are on page 6 of this thread. The prices may be a a bit different but not a great difference.

The only difference would be if you wanted to parallel two 8 ohm instead of a single 4 ohm resistor in the R2021 position on the RS150 crossover for better power handling. If you plan on cranking them at 100+ SPL's constantly, it'd be a good idea to do so. IMHO, normal 80 - 90 DB volumes will never be a problem.


Jim
I am assuming it is the RS28 version. The first series resistor is a 1 ohm. The BOM description was correct but the part number was wrong. It has been corrected.

[m1ke323]

I am building the Dennis's RS28 version, and dawaro is correct. I will be using the BOM in the first post, there isn't a problem anymore. I had downloaded the BOM a few weeks ago, so that is why the part # and description didn't match.

Below is the correct BOM from the first page. I highlighted the part # which was previously incorrect.

Also, I plan on buying the 4 8ohm resistor's instead of the 2 4ohm ones due to my taste in loud music and movies. Out of curiosity, what is the recommended power handling of these speakers? roughly.

Just to make sure, the resistors that need to be replaced with the 4 8ohm ones are the ones in component R2, with part # 004-5.6 (I didn't see any 4 ohm ones.) I am unsure of what resistors to replace the 4 ohm ones with, would the dayton 8ohm ones with part number 004-8 work? Here is the link to the 8 ohm ones http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=004-8

Thanks for bearing with my through all this.
Mike

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1848/bomwx7.jpg

[jonathanb3478]

Just to make sure, the resistors that need to be replaced with the 4 8ohm ones are the ones in component R2, with part # 004-5.6 (I didn't see any 4 ohm ones.)

Remember this?

Are you building the RS28 or Seas H1212 versions?

The only difference would be if you wanted to parallel two 8 ohm instead of a single 4 ohm resistor in the R2021 position on the RS150 crossover for better power handling.

The R2021 unit indicates it is for the Seas tweeter version. I have not heard anyone mention that the RS28A version would benefit from any such substitution. It may... but no one has said it would, so far.

[Brian Walter]

Mike, the resistors that Dennis said to double up on were for the Seas version of the design which would be the equivalent of R2 for the RS28 version. You would need to double the value, so you paralleled 2 - 11 ohm resistors you would get 5.5 ohms. Use the 2 paralleled 11 ohm resistors in place of the 5.6 ohm resistors shown for R2. I would guess the need for the extra power capacity would be similar between the two designs, so the decision is yours.

[swithey]

I’m about to embark on the Dennis Murphy TMWW design. I went ahead and made a few changes to Dennis Murphy’s Seas crossover design as well as to the BOM (based on this post (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=272170&postcount=1123)).

Here is a summary of the modifications:

1) Increased resistor (R2021) from 4 ohm to 8 ohm and ran (2) of them in parallel. This is to give the speaker a bit more power handling ability.
2) I updated the crossover schematic to reflect change in #1
3) I changed the BOM to reflect change in #1 and increased the quantity of R2021 (now 8 ohm) from (2) to (4).
4) Updated the BOM with the latest pricing from Parts Express and Madisound.
5) Combined all crossovers on a single sheet for easy review.

I'm a first-timer for speaker building so.. I just wanted to be sure this new version is correct. Thanks!

EDIT: Updated the BOM to fix resistor typo. Rev 2 is now attached

[chasw98]

That is different than the one I built. For instance in the lo end section of the crossover, the industor L6 on mine is 3.0 Mh and the capacitor is C4 on mine is 140 mf.
The resistor you speak of is 5.6 ohms on my schematic. I wil look deeper into the differences later tonite.


Here is the schematic I used from post #1 in the zip file.

[swithey]

That is different than the one I built. For instance in the lo end section of the crossover, the industor L6 on mine is 3.0 Mh and the capacitor is C4 on mine is 140 mf.
The resistor you speak of is 5.6 ohms on my schematic. I wil look deeper into the differences later tonite.


Here is the schematic I used from post #1 in the zip file.
Thanks for checking my work!!

I think the one you attached is for the Dayton RS tweet (vs. the Seas tweet). I actually started working with that one first and realized I had the wrong one (the Seas BOM in Post #261 (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=235961&postcount=261) did not match up). I used the version from Post #258 (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=235850&postcount=258) as my guide and made the mods I mentioned above.

[chasw98]

Thanks for checking my work!!

I think the one you attached is for the Dayton RS tweet (vs. the Seas tweet). I actually started working with that one first and realized I had the wrong one (the Seas BOM in Post #261 (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=235961&postcount=261) did not match up). I used the version from Post #258 (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=235850&postcount=258) as my guide and made the mods I mentioned above.
I used the Seas H1212 tweeter and it looks like one of us is wrong. I have yet to see the schematic for the Seas tweeter. I was under the impression that the 2 tweeters were virtually interchangeable. If I am wrong, I will have to get some more parts and rewire the crossovers. Where is the schematic for the Seas tweeter WWMT Dennis Murphy version?

[swithey]

I used the Seas H1212 tweeter and it looks like one of us is wrong. I have yet to see the schematic for the Seas tweeter. I was under the impression that the 2 tweeters were virtually interchangeable. If I am wrong, I will have to get some more parts and rewire the crossovers. Where is the schematic for the Seas tweeter WWMT Dennis Murphy version?
Here is the info I used. Hopefully you're right and I'm wrong so you don't have to re-build your xover.

DM XO - Seas 27TBFC/2 (H1212) or 27TDFC (H1189) - Post #258 (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=235850&postcount=258)
DM XO - Dayton RS28A-S - Post #259 (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=235867&postcount=259)

From what I understand, the "interchangable" drivers are between the (2) Seas tweeters. The Dayton is different. In fact, DM still needs to create a crossover for the WMTW Center.

[chasw98]

OK, it looks like I have been very wrong in building the units I have assembled. Using post 258 http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=235850&postcount=258 as the official Seas tweeter version of the RS 3 ways WWMT sealed speakers, I show that there are a few parts for me to change out..... or buy 2 RS 28 AS tweeters! Crap.

Lo end - Change the 140 mf cap to 115 mf.

Mid - Change a bunch (too lazy to document). Actually it is 6 components, mostly small and some can be reused.

Hi end - Change all components, an 8.2 mf cap, 2 10 ohm resistors, a 3 ohm resistor, and a 1.2 mh inductor.

I am going to have to mull this over. Do I feel stupid. Attention to detail, attention to detail, atte............ :banghead:

[dawaro]

OK, it looks like I have been very wrong in building the units I have assembled. Using post 258 http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=235850&postcount=258 as the official Seas tweeter version of the RS 3 ways WWMT sealed speakers, I show that there are a few parts for me to change out..... or buy 2 RS 28 AS tweeters! Crap.

Lo end - Change the 140 mf cap to 115 mf.

Mid - Change a bunch (too lazy to document). Actually it is 6 components, mostly small and some can be reused.

Hi end - Change all components, an 8.2 mf cap, 2 10 ohm resistors, a 3 ohm resistor, and a 1.2 mh inductor.

I am going to have to mull this over. Do I feel stupid. Attention to detail, attention to detail, atte............ :banghead:

Well look at it this way, if you like the way they sound with the wrong xover you are going to love them with the right one! Plus if you find someone the is building the RS version you might be able to just sale them the xovers.

[chasw98]

Well look at it this way, if you like the way they sound with the wrong xover you are going to love them with the right one! Plus if you find someone the is building the RS version you might be able to just sale them the xovers.
Hey, live and learn, no use crying, etc., etc. You want to come over and let me cry on your shoulder? No, but really, the parts or drivers won't go to waste. It's just the cost of doing DIY business. I am sure glad the crossovers are easily removable amd modifiable. It is not a problem, just chalk it up to learning!

[chasw98]

Swithey:
As long as we are trying to make sense of the different designs, you should notate on your BOM to specify either 2 each 4 ohm Mills resistors or 4 each 8 ohm Mills resistors, not both of them. Just adds to the confusion.

Chuck

[swithey]

Swithey:
As long as we are trying to make sense of the different designs, you should notate on your BOM to specify either 2 each 4 ohm Mills resistors or 4 each 8 ohm Mills resistors, not both of them. Just adds to the confusion.

Chuck
Chuck,

I see my error. The 4ohm resistor is supposed to be 6ohm. I have updated the PDF file with the correct info. Thanks for finding the error!

[Spanky Ham]

In fact, DM still needs to create a crossover for the WMTW Center.

Chuck,
Aren't you building a center with a Seas tweeter and DM cross?

[Edge540]

I finished the TMWW towers a couple weeks ago. So far i like them quite a bit. To me, they are definatly "brighter" than what i was used to, which was a pair of B&W 602. This is not to be taken as a negative comment, just a reference to anyone interested in building these. The more i listen, the better they sound! I am happy....now on to a worthy sub project....
Thanks
Eric

i built the sealed, RS28A version with Dennis' crossovers.

[Dennis Murphy]

Just one other thing--the frequency response graph you've posted is for the RS28 tweet, not the Seas. The Seas doesn't have the diffraction dip at 4 kHz, or the high-end notch around 16 k. Jim Holtz should have the Seas plot to post, but I think he's on vacation for a week or two.

[Jim Holtz]

Just one other thing--the frequency response graph you've posted is for the RS28 tweet, not the Seas. The Seas doesn't have the diffraction dip at 4 kHz, or the high-end notch around 16 k. Jim Holtz should have the Seas plot to post, but I think he's on vacation for a week or two.

Hi Dennis,

Yep, I'm sitting in a hotel in Dalhart Texas on the way to California via the Grand Canyon etc.

I do have the RS 3-way Seas version FR plot at home. It is ruler flat out to near 20K. It's posted on page 6 in either post 258 or 261 if anyone wants to take a peek.

Jim

[chasw98]

Now thats dedication. Has your wife told you to come to bed yet cause you're tired from driving all day? I'm going to bed. I just got one crossover completed the right way! I'll do the other in the morning and see what I get. Have a good vacation.

Chuck

[dCraig]

Question for Brian Walter. How did you seal the MDF before painting your baffle on the curved RS 3 Ways? I like your black finish but find that MDF soaks up paint and primer like a sponge on a cut or rounded over edge. Did you use a specific sealer and then prime and paint? How many coats of primer or sealer did it take? Any info would be great. Wonderful speaker design. Thanks.

[apenn]

You might give glue size a try on end "grain" or other milled MDF edges. It's a 1:1 mixture of yellow (PVA) glue and water. Brush it on, let it dry and then sand it smooth. I've had the same issue in the past and glue size was one reccomendation.

Here's some more info:
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/All_about_glue_size.html

Looks like my ratio was a bit off - the link recommends 10:1 or thereabouts.

-Adrian

[Jim Holtz]

Now thats dedication. Has your wife told you to come to bed yet cause you're tired from driving all day? I'm going to bed. I just got one crossover completed the right way! I'll do the other in the morning and see what I get. Have a good vacation.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

This is what happens when you are in a house full of computer geeks. :D My wife and I are both in IT and my 14 year old daughter is soooo bored with out Internet access. What did we do before email? :roll:

OK, we're all anxiously awaiting your listening thoughts with the new crossovers. Solder away!

We're off to the Painted desert and petrified forest today and plan on spending the night in Flagstaff. I just bought a new Canon XT DSLR camera so there should be lots of opportunities for pictures.

Jim

[seattle_ice]

Question for Brian Walter. How did you seal the MDF before painting your baffle on the curved RS 3 Ways? I like your black finish but find that MDF soaks up paint and primer like a sponge on a cut or rounded over edge. Did you use a specific sealer and then prime and paint? How many coats of primer or sealer did it take? Any info would be great. Wonderful speaker design. Thanks.

I like to use thinned down fiberglass resin for MDF that is going to be painted. It sands very well, and seals better than anything else I have tried. It does have a fume issue, though.

[chasw98]

OK, I have finished rebuilding the crossovers. What a difference! The whole speaker system came together. The soundstage is just as wide as ever, but the imaging and the positions of instruments within the stage are extremely well defined. Everything is much clearer. Here are some graphs. They are all 20-20K sweeps using Room EQ Wizard. Only 1 speaker was used for all sweeps.

1 foot distance - 85 db SPL

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/072206-RS3ways-DMXO-1ft-85db.jpg

9 foot distance - 85 db SPL

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/072206-RS3ways-DMXO-9ft-85db.jpg

9 foot distance - 85 db SPL ASCEND 340

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/072206-Asc340-9ft-85db.jpg

You can see the effect of the room in the differences between the 1 foot and the 9 foot graphs. They sound very, very good. Thanks, Dennis for all your effort and time. I am patiently awaiting the center channel version.

Chuck

[swithey]

OK, I have finished rebuilding the crossovers. What a difference! The whole speaker system came together. The soundstage is just as wide as ever, but the imaging and the positions of instruments within the stage are extremely well defined. Everything is much clearer. Here are some graphs. They are all 20-20K sweeps using Room EQ Wizard. Only 1 speaker was used for all sweeps.

1 foot distance - 85 db SPL

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/072206-RS3ways-DMXO-1ft-85db.jpg

9 foot distance - 85 db SPL

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/072206-RS3ways-DMXO-9ft-85db.jpg

9 foot distance - 85 db SPL ASCEND 340

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/072206-Asc340-9ft-85db.jpg

You can see the effect of the room in the differences between the 1 foot and the 9 foot graphs. They sound very, very good. Thanks, Dennis for all your effort and time. I am patiently awaiting the center channel version.

Chuck
Chuck,

Any way you can make some "off-axis" graphs -- maybe 30deg? I'd love to see how they perform.

[chasw98]

Chuck,

Any way you can make some "off-axis" graphs -- maybe 30deg? I'd love to see how they perform.

I will after I enjoy them for a little while. After all this, I am just going to listen to them for a little bit!

[gimpy]

Jim, I hope you enjoy your stop over in Flag and the Grand Canyon. We had a considerable hail/rain storm just a few minutes ago. Hope you missed that. It was pretty nasty.

If you like a little live entertainment with your dinner, stop off at Black Barts, just off of I-40 and exit 198. The waiters and waitresses sing while serving. Food's not bad, either.

Enjoy you trip, Frank

[Dennis Murphy]

Hi Chuck Looks like we're making some progress. "Clear" is what these things should sound like. About the measurements--Did you really take the first measurement at 1 foot, or did you mean 1 meter? One foot would be way too close to get proper driver integration, and this, along with any mic calibration problems, would account for the rising top end.

I'm off to Aspen tomorrow for a week of live music. I'll be off line until I get back on the 31st. Cheers.

[chasw98]

Hi Chuck Looks like we're making some progress. "Clear" is what these things should sound like. About the measurements--Did you really take the first measurement at 1 foot, or did you mean 1 meter? One foot would be way too close to get proper driver integration, and this, along with any mic calibration problems, would account for the rising top end.

I'm off to Aspen tomorrow for a week of live music. I'll be off line until I get back on the 31st. Cheers.

Dennis:
It was at 1 foot. I can redo it at 1 meter.

Have fun at the music festival. I spent 20 years in Aspen, owned a recording studio there, did a lot of live recording. Ask for Gordon at the Wheeler Opera House, he is my old partner and head sound tech there. Say "Hi" to Jon Busch at the festival if you run into him. At the very least stop by the Hotel Jerome for a beer (although it is not what it used to be). Or better yet go to the Woody Creek Tavern!

They are most definitely much clearer. If you know what it sounds like when a pair of speakers are out of phase by 180 degrees, I would say the speakers "WERE" out of phase by somewhere between 45 and 90 degrees. The correct crossover has brought them into proper alignment. Talk to yu when you get back. have a safe trip.

Chuck

[Brian Walter]

Question for Brian Walter. How did you seal the MDF before painting your baffle on the curved RS 3 Ways? I like your black finish but find that MDF soaks up paint and primer like a sponge on a cut or rounded over edge. Did you use a specific sealer and then prime and paint? How many coats of primer or sealer did it take? Any info would be great. Wonderful speaker design. Thanks.

Sory for not getting back to you sooner, but I've been busy at family events and doing yard work. I sealed the MDF with Minwax Wood Hardener. It didn't work too bad, but I think the thinned glue works better and is a lot cheaper. I didn't get a chance to try dewaxed shellac, but I think that might work just as well if not better than the wood hardener and is also cheaper.

I went right from the sealer to the paint, not the same day, but no other steps inbetween. I pretty much took one whole can to get a good coat, but I messed up the paint job doing something, I don't remember what at the moment so I ended up having to get another can to repaint it.

Brian Walter

[Brian Walter]

They are most definitely much clearer. If you know what it sounds like when a pair of speakers are out of phase by 180 degrees, I would say the speakers "WERE" out of phase by somewhere between 45 and 90 degrees. The correct crossover has brought them into proper alignment. Talk to yu when you get back. have a safe trip.

Chuck

Chuck,

I'm glad to hear they sound better with the new crossover. I know you really liked them initially, so if they are better now, that is great. I swapped out the fiberglass that I had in my midrange cabinets with 1" foam and can't say that I could hear any difference. They may possibly be a little more open or loose sounding, but I can't really say for sure, the difference if it does exist is really minor. Overall, I'm getting used to the sound of the speakers and find that with the right recordings they sound really nice, but with poorer recordings they sound thin, more like cheap speakers. I think what I'm finding is that I have more poor recordings than I thought I did. I've been purchasing new music and find that most of it sounds really good.

Just for my own piece of mind, I sent in my microphone to have it calibrated so I'll know for sure what my speakers are doing.

Brian

[chasw98]

Chuck,

I'm glad to hear they sound better with the new crossover. I know you really liked them initially, so if they are better now, that is great. I swapped out the fiberglass that I had in my midrange cabinets with 1" foam and can't say that I could hear any difference. They may possibly be a little more open or loose sounding, but I can't really say for sure, the difference if it does exist is really minor. Overall, I'm getting used to the sound of the speakers and find that with the right recordings they sound really nice, but with poorer recordings they sound thin, more like cheap speakers. I think what I'm finding is that I have more poor recordings than I thought I did. I've been purchasing new music and find that most of it sounds really good.

Just for my own piece of mind, I sent in my microphone to have it calibrated so I'll know for sure what my speakers are doing.

Brian

Yes, they are much better now. I started out with 1 inch foam and was going to add some fiberglass or at least try it (now that they seem to be working as intended). I agree wholeheartedly that bad recordings sound real bad and good recordings sound really, really godd. I just got the best of acoustic alchemy and can't wait for some quiet time to listen to it! We have been listening to some movies this weekend and they are sounding very detailed, more than I have heard before. I also went through and recalibrated my sub just to make sure.

Did you send your mic to Kim Girardin? Let me know how that turns out. I have been thinking of doing that for some time now. I am still going to do some 1 meter tests and some off axis tests and some outdoor tests, but I usually have to buy off the family and send them away while I do that! Depending on the results, I may have to come up with some WAF friendly "enhancements" to my listening area.

Chuck

[Brian Walter]

I just got the best of acoustic alchemy and can't wait for some quiet time to listen to it!

Did you send your mic to Kim Girardin?
Chuck

Where did you purchase the Acoustic Alchemy CD from? I've looked around locally and can't find it, so I presume I'll have to mail order it from somewhere.

Yes I sent the mic to Kim. I debated dropping it off as he is only about 1 1/2 hours away. I'm going on vacation for a week at the end of this week, so hopefully it'll be waiting for me when I get back so I can do some testing. Also hopefully my son will be kind/smart enough to not leave it sitting on the front steps.

Brian

[chasw98]

Where did you purchase the Acoustic Alchemy CD from? I've looked around locally and can't find it, so I presume I'll have to mail order it from somewhere.

Yes I sent the mic to Kim. I debated dropping it off as he is only about 1 1/2 hours away. I'm going on vacation for a week at the end of this week, so hopefully it'll be waiting for me when I get back so I can do some testing. Also hopefully my son will be kind/smart enough to not leave it sitting on the front steps.

Brian

Jim holtz turned me onto yourmusic.com. It is in stock and $5.99 including shipping. They have lots of $5.99 SACD's also. Limited selection but good fair prices.

[dCraig]

Sory for not getting back to you sooner, but I've been busy at family events and doing yard work. I sealed the MDF with Minwax Wood Hardener. It didn't work too bad, but I think the thinned glue works better and is a lot cheaper. I didn't get a chance to try dewaxed shellac, but I think that might work just as well if not better than the wood hardener and is also cheaper.

I went right from the sealer to the paint, not the same day, but no other steps inbetween. I pretty much took one whole can to get a good coat, but I messed up the paint job doing something, I don't remember what at the moment so I ended up having to get another can to repaint it.

Brian Walter

Thanks, guys. I will try the glue first. My boxes are coming along.
Nat-P boxes with Mahagony veneer. The sides will be black.
http://img323.imageshack.us/img323/5103/1494962cd6.jpg

[SteveCallas]

Chuck, that 1' measurement looks pretty darn nice - flat with an increased high end.....a little bit more oomph in the 80-200hz region and it would be, in my opinion, perfect FR-wise :T

[JonW]

Chuck, that 1' measurement looks pretty darn nice - flat with an increased high end.....a little bit more oomph in the 80-200hz region and it would be, in my opinion, perfect FR-wise :T

Do you mean something more like Figure 4 in this link?

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/378/index5.html

:P

[chasw98]

Chuck, that 1' measurement looks pretty darn nice - flat with an increased high end.....a little bit more oomph in the 80-200hz region and it would be, in my opinion, perfect FR-wise :T

Thanks, Steve! Actually, I think you will see that improve when I drag one outside and do some free air measurements. I believe that is room induced.

And I am not sure how to reply to DR Jon......... :Z I will deal with you later, my friend! :f> :rofl:

Right now they sound much better than they look. One of the nearfield measurements was done at 1 foot instead of 1 meter which DM said was too close for the drivers to integrate properly. Guess these are not near field monitors. I am going to try and squeeze some time in this week for measuring, otherwise it will be next weekend.

[SteveCallas]

Do you mean something more like Figure 4 in this link?
Or perhaps the purple line in this (http://www.hometheatermag.com/completesystems/705boston/index4.html) one? You know, yours and mine appear to have a very similar FR :P

Thanks, Steve! Actually, I think you will see that improve when I drag one outside and do some free air measurements. I believe that is room induced.
Hmm, actually, I think it would stray a bit from my own personal tastes measured outside, as it seems likely you'll lose a little off the top and bottom. I still wanna hear them though. Depending on how Jon's speakers turn out, we'll see how excited I get at the prospect ;)

[JonW]

Or perhaps the purple line in this (http://www.hometheatermag.com/completesystems/705boston/index4.html) one? You know, yours and mine appear to have a very similar FR :P


Very interesting. Maybe a little boost at the bottom (~80-200) gives some oomph to the music. And an overemphasized high end (2000+) helps us old guys hear a little bit of the highs. And that makes for a pleasant speaker. I'm not sure a flat response is allit's cracked up to be. :)

And I am not sure how to reply to DR Jon......... :Z I will deal with you later, my friend! :f> :rofl: .

:p: :P :?? :later:

[chasw98]

Steve, Jon:
It must be pure coincedence that you both chose to point out reviews with graphs of speakers that....... YOU OWN! Fancy that! Frequency response does not tell all. And the room is as big a factor, I believe. Thats why I want to check mine outdoors since my portable anechoic chamber is on the fritz.

Chuck

[JonW]

Steve, Jon:
It must be pure coincedence that you both chose to point out reviews with graphs of speakers that....... YOU OWN! Fancy that! Frequency response does not tell all. And the room is as big a factor, I believe. Thats why I want to check mine outdoors since my portable anechoic chamber is on the fritz.

Chuck

Hey... wait a minute... why... whadaya know... those ARE Totem Forests in my living room! What are the odds?!?! :W

Seriously, that's actually the point I was making- frequency response does not tell all. We each auditioned lots of speakers. And the ones we liked the sound of best have increased highs and lows (or decreased mids). Pretty interesting, eh? I find all of this speaker design stuff quite interesting. :)

[SteveCallas]

Frequency response does not tell all
Absolutely, far from it. But this:

We each auditioned lots of speakers. And the ones we liked the sound of best have increased highs and lows (or decreased mids). Pretty interesting, eh?
is pretty interesting. I hadn't heard his speakers before I got mine, and I don't think either of us had seen the measured FR of the speakers we chose until after we already chose them. Logic would tell me that when you take the Munson curves into consideration

http://www.webervst.com/fm1.gif
an in room response with a slighty rising high end and low end is most pleasing because it most resembles a true flat FR to our ears. That said, mine don't really have much of a boosted 80-200hz region on their own, though I'd probably like them even more if they did.

[seattle_ice]

Interesting, it is.

Many of the Alpine car head units have a function that seems to boost the top and bottom end of the spectrum. I am sure others do as well.

[Dennis H]

I think the "rising high end" probably has more to do with measurement method and mic calibration (or lack thereof) than anything about the speaker. The Seas tweeter doesn't behave that way and Dennis doesn't design his speakers that way.

About the FM curves, they apply to real instruments as well as speakers so the speaker should be flat if you want it to sound real. If anything the highs should be rolled off a bit for some recordings because the engineers record the highs too hot so they sound good on crappy speakers.

Many people prefer boosted highs and lows. It's called the smile curve, named after the way some people tune their graphic EQs. To hear speakers designed with the smile curve, visit any Best Buy and they'll have plenty to choose from. ;)

The thing about speakers is we judge them based on what we are used to. If we are used to crap, we don't like anything that doesn't sound like crap. The thing to do is listen to good speakers for a month or so before judging them too harshly. It's like wine, once you get used to the good stuff, it's hard to go back.

[SteveCallas]

About the FM curves, they apply to real instruments as well as speakers so the speaker should be flat if you want it to sound real.
That's assuming the recording equipment is perfectly linear in response. And if the listener doesn't listen at the reference level the recording was based on, the curves still play a role in what we hear. I'm not talking about big boosts like the smile curve EQ you are referring to, but slight increases.

[chasw98]

Dennis H "I think the "rising high end" probably has more to do with measurement method and mic calibration (or lack thereof) than anything about the speaker."

I agree, it is the measurement technique and the room, ergo, my desire to measure outdoors to get a feel for the true response of the WWMT.

Steve Callas: "That's assuming the recording equipment is perfectly linear in response."

Having owned a studio for some 10 odd years, I would have to say that almost all commercial studios are using equipment that is flat between the mic and the speakers. And they are checked regularly. I would tend to check the entire audio chain with instruments at minimum once a week and usually more often (this was back in the analog days of setting tape bias, etc.). A micrphone will usually be chosen due to its response characteristics for a given instrument, and most control rooms strive for flat response from the main monitors. Now, put the human engineer in the mix and you never know what you will get!

[m1ke323]

I am in the process of putting together my crossover and would like to see some pictures of how everyone has their crossover board laid out for Dennis's design. Thanks

Mike

[chasw98]

I am in the process of putting together my crossover and would like to see some pictures of how everyone has their crossover board laid out for Dennis's design. Thanks

Mike

Mike:
Check here: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=263590&postcount=840

Chuck

[m1ke323]

Thanks casw98, I was hopeing to see everything on one board though(I noticed you have your woofer XO on a seperate board) thanks though, this still helps

Also, should I be using a gasketing tape around the rabbit of the drivers? If so, for all the speakers or just the woofers and mid?

[m1ke323]

I haven't found much on speaker gasketing tape, so I am going to assume most people don't use it. I am about to cut the recess holes and wanted to know how deep to make them. The gasketing tape would require a deeper recess.

[chasw98]

I cut my holes extremely exact and then did the recesses when I had the drivers in hand and could practice on scrap wood. I did not use any gasket material. OTOH the drivers are in so tight that I have to remove the crossover panel in back and tap on them from the rear to get them to come out.

[Dennis H]

Most people use foam weatherstripping to seal the drivers. Leaks are a bad thing.

[kgveteran]

Any chance we could get the old drawing of the center if someone wanted to do a smaller version.Since it worked for me.I can't seem to find even the updated version with the deeper depth.Thanx.

KG

[m1ke323]

Just giving you guys an update on where I am with building my TMWW speakers. It has taken me along time to build the enclosures becuase I built a pair and wasn't happy with my design, so I remade them differently and they are much more sturdy and square this way.

You can't really see it in the pictures but on my new enclosures I rabbited everything and used a roundover on all my internal braces to clean things up a bit. This made dry fitting the enclosures alot easier.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/9327/dscn0928bd7.jpg http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9066/dscn0929gc1.jpg

My crossover boards are leaning up against the speakers in this picture. They are the same shape as the braces, but an inch smaller in all dimensions, made out of 1/4" hardboard.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2729/dscn0930ii9.jpg

To make all the braces exactly the same I used a laser to cut a template out of steel. With this template I could just use a flush trim router bit to make all the braces.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9492/dscn0939ir2.jpg

Lastly, here is a comparison of my old boxes (which I wasn't happy with) and my new ones. I started doing some experiments on my old boxes, so they are partically dismantled in the pictures.

It turned out the 4 small strips in all 4 corners didn't want to stay as straight as I would have liked them to, so I remade them with half the front baffle on, as well as the rear panel. This made them much more square as well as stronger. The joints on my old enclosures didn't have enough surface area to to stay glued when I was bending regular 1/4" plywood around the sides. I found a place in town though that carries 3/8 bendable plywood that can make an complete circle, this is what I will be using on the new enclosures. I will probably end up doing 3 layers of it, making the side walls 1-1/8".

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/4270/dscn0938os4.jpg

I have off of work this coming week, so I should get them finished up until the point of veneering them. I have to assemble the crossovers this week and it will be my first time doing that, so it may take a bit longer then normal. A question I have though, my front baffle will be 1.5" thick, how large of a roundover do I need on the back side of the driver cut outs do I need. Is a 3/4 roundover enough for the driver to breathe? I am also still looking for a pictures of how to layout the crossover board on a single board. So if anyone has some pictures please post them. Thanks

So what do you guys think, any tips/nitpicks/suggestions?

Mike

[Dougie085]

What are you going to use to form the sides?

[m1ke323]

A local lumber company carries 3/8" bendable plywood. It is actually sold in tubes, so it will make the 18" radius no problem. I will use 3 layers of that and then after that is done, I will put the second half of the front baffle on. The second part of the baffle is much larger becuase it will cover up the ends of the plywood, flush with the current front baffle.

The front will look much better with the 2-1/4" wider front baffle.

[m1ke323]

Thanks Jonathan,

After spending days absolutely covered in sawdust from routering everything, in hot weather. Its nice to hear a few compliments.

I am laying out my crossovers today, but am comfused to say the least. Is there any website that explains how a crossover should be layed out for the least interference. Like what inductors should be stood up on end or whatever?\

Thanks, Mike

[ibilisi]

Any chance we could get the old drawing of the center if someone wanted to do a smaller version.Since it worked for me.I can't seem to find even the updated version with the deeper depth.Thanx.

KG

Is this what you are looking for??

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=249917&postcount=429

[toolsresearch]

To make all the braces exactly the same I used a laser to cut a template out of steel. With this template I could just use a flush trim router bit to make all the braces.



You did WHAT!? You cut a template out of steel...WITH A LASER!? ;x(

So, where do you buy your tools?

Seriously, that is nice work!

[m1ke323]

I know a few people are making some rounded enclosures, they asked for my brace template. Also, I was asked what I will be forming the sides of the enclosures with. So here is the bendable plywood I bought, it is 3/8" thick. There are 2 sheets in the picture.

It took my a day to get the plywood to bend this much. I bent it in to a half circle at first, then let it sit for a few hours. I repeated the process of bending and letting the wood fibers stretch for a few hours for a day. I imagine after I cut it up tomorrow, forming the sides will be a piece of cake.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9286/dscn0950dq2.jpg

[Brian Walter]

Mike, I just got back from vacation and it looks like you've been busy. I'm really interested in how the bendy plywood works out as cutting all those strips I used was are real pain in the back side, as was cutting all those relief slots in the 1/4" plywood. Keep up the good work.

The only problem I see with building the crossover on one board is that you won't be able to take it out to modify it, should you desire to do so. For example if you should wire something incorrectly or decide to voice them slightly different for your room.

Brian Walter

[m1ke323]

Brian, I decided to cut up my crossover board to make it accessible when the enclosure is finished, I just didn't post it.

I was debating on cutting my bottom brace so it doesn't have the cross-brace in the center, or cutting my XO board. The better solution I think is just to cut up my XO board so I can access and pull it out through the lowest woofer.

About the bendable plywood, it works amazing. If you pre-stretch the wood fibers by rolling it up like it is in the picture, it makes the 18" radius no problem. You could even wrap it tighter. I would say it could probably wrap down to a 15" radius easy enough if you slowly kept stretching it (rolling the tube smaller and smaller). This is 3/8" too. the 1/4" stuff could probably wrap right about the back of the enclosure.

I'm not sure if you noticed Brian, but I took your advice and doubled up the mdf on the top and bottom. This thing is sturdy as a rock. So far I have 1 side fully completed on both enclosures.

Mike

[masse1369]

Would anyone here be willing to build these speakers for me? I would be interested in the LCR in some sort of rosewood finish. How much would it cost and how long do you think it would take? The main reason I am asking this is that I am not very handy with this kind of stuff nor do I have any tools. And if no one on here would be interested in doing this, where would be a good place to have the cabinets made? I assume parts express would build the x-overs for you...

Thanks in advance,

Ryan

[masse1369]

im actually in jacksonville, fl...

[Brian Bunge]

Hell, you're only a few hours drive away from Palm Bay! You wouldn't even need to worry about shipping. If you're interested, email me offline and we'll work something out.

[Brian Walter]

I think I finally got all the bugs out of my measurement setup. So here is the response of my RS-TMWW with the Seas tweeter:

Note that I modified my crossover to reduce the tweeter output by approximately 1 db.

Brian Walter

[ThomasW]

To bad you couldn't get it any flatter.... ;)

[chasw98]

I think I finally got all the bugs out of my measurement setup. So here is the response of my RS-TMWW with the Seas tweeter:

Note that I modified my crossover to reduce the tweeter output by approximately 1 db.

Brian Walter

Thats pretty darn flat Brian! What distance from the speaker were you? I am assuming you were indoors. If so, that is very good. Congrats.

[Brian Walter]

Thats pretty darn flat Brian! What distance from the speaker were you? I am assuming you were indoors. If so, that is very good. Congrats.

The measurement was taken indoors at 1 meter, mic centered between the tweeter and midrange, 1/6 octave smoothing. It actually looks like I could remove the extra 1 db of tweeter padding I added and get it a little flatter. But I think I'll leave well enough alone.

I've gotten used to listening to them now and really like them, especially on well recorded material. The bass can be just a little boomy with the cabinets as close to the wall as I have them, but if I pull them out a little they sound pretty darn good. For most music I find the bass to be plenty deep, but they could benefit from a sub rolled in around 40 - 50 Hz.

Brian Walter

[chasw98]

Now then..... Give us a measurement at the listening position.

[Dennis Murphy]

Now then..... Give us a measurement at the listening position.


Actually, that is pretty close to what you would get if you could measure as far back as a normal listening position. Brian correctly positioned the mic below the tweeter axis. The design axis is actually directly on the tweeter axis, with a listening position of 12 feet back. But when measuring closer up, you can get a better approximation of the phase integration of the tweeter and mid if you lower the mic to reduce the degree of the angle of the mid to the mic, and better simulate the relative arrival times of the two drivers. if you could measure at 10-12 feet on the tweeter axis, and if you used the stock tweeter L-pad series resistor setting, the response above 2k would be pretty much dead flat. I also suspect the little dip at 250 hz would fill in. Brian--how did you derive the response below 200 kHz? Also, did you smooth becuase you had to in or to get rid of reflections, or did you just decide 1/6th smoothing would be a better indication of what the ear actually hears?

[Brian Walter]

Hi Dennis, I smoothed the response simply because it seemed like the thing to do. I could post an un-smoothed response if anyone is interested. You make it sound like I knew what I was doing, don't I wish. I'd never claimed to know what I'm doing, that's why I built your design. As far as the below 200 Hz response is concerned, that is probably not very accurate as it's from the same gated FR measurement. I assumed, possibly incorrectly, that the dip in response around 250 Hz was due to limitations in my measurement technique, I wasn't really worried about it.

I'm really starting to like these speakers, they are really clean and lively compared to my previous speakers. Now that I think I've got the bugs out of my measuring setup, I should try again to measure my old speakers so I can see the difference in response. It may help explain the differences I'm hearing. This is all very educational and fun, albeit frustrating at times.

Thanks again for the great design.

Brian Walter

[Dennis Murphy]

Hi I'm surprised you're getting any kind of measured response below 200 hz with the gated measurement. Praxis will give me room response information below 200 Hz, but that's clearly not what you have. The room response would be very rough, with lots of bass peaks due to room modes. Yours almost looks like a simulation of a typical woofer roll-off. Could you please described what the unsmoothed response looks like? Is it a million jillion jagged lines representing reflections, or is it just a slightly less smooth plot than the one you show? Thanks.

[Brian Walter]

Could you please described what the unsmoothed response looks like? Is it a million jillion jagged lines representing reflections, or is it just a slightly less smooth plot than the one you show? Thanks.

Dennis, I did get a chance to run a few more tests last night and they all look pretty much the same. The unsmoothed graph is mostly smooth below about 250 Hz, above that it has a multitude of (bi-jillion) jagged lines, but not very high in amplitude. I'd say no more than 2 - 3 db on average peak to peak. Your comments have me concerned that I'm still not getting proper measurements, especially below 250 Hz or so. So I put a couch cushion in front of the woofers and did another measurement. Sure enough, the response below 400 Hz or so dropped by about 6 db, if I recall correctly. I looked through the justLMS manual and some of their graphs look very similar on the low end to what I'm getting, so I suspect what we're seeing has something to do with the way the program works.

I also tried to take a measurement with the mic on my couch at the listening position, but it was difficult to support the mic properly so I don't have a lot of confidence in the measurement. But in general it looked the same as the 1 meter measurement except the bass response was down a few db with respect to the rest of the response. I would have done more testing and captured a few graphs to post, but company showed up while I was testing so I had to stop.

Brian Walter

[Dennis Murphy]

Howdy I don't know what kind of signal Just MLS uses, so I can't help out much. It looks like you have to apply smoothing manually, which you did. I think the program is simulating the response below 200 Hz, because that is definitely not what it would look like in the bass. I think you've done about as much as you can do. Thanks!

[yousuredo2]

The bass can be just a little boomy with the cabinets as close to the wall as I have them, but if I pull them out a little they sound pretty darn good.

Hey brian,
Do you think this is because of the rear port being closer to the wall or the speakers ?

Does it matter if they are close to Tv's, sterio cabnets, ect...
I see in your posted pic, yours are close to your tv...
Mine will be farther apart, tilted in, and the front of the box will be about 2' from the wall...

[chasw98]

Your comments have me concerned that I'm still not getting proper measurements, especially below 250 Hz or so.
Brian Walter

Brian:
If you get a chance, download a free copy of Room EQ Wizard (REW) and run that to compare 2 different pieces of software with the same equipment. If you get the same results with REW, that would show that it is not your use of the software and might be hardware related.

Chuck

[Brian Walter]

Brian:
If you get a chance, download a free copy of Room EQ Wizard (REW) and run that to compare 2 different pieces of software with the same equipment. If you get the same results with REW, that would show that it is not your use of the software and might be hardware related.

Chuck

Chuck, I downloaded the Room EQ Wizard this noon and if I have a chance I'll try it out sometime this weekend. My schedule is a little busy this weekend, so I might not have time to got to it. Is the program pretty simple to set up to use? Do I need to use a jig or attenuation cables, etc to work with this? if so will my Wallin Jig work? I noticed that there is an online users helpfile or something like that. I'll read through that and it I've got any questions I know who to ask.

Brian Walter

[chasw98]

Basically you set the pink noise level generated by the software that is coming from the speakers to a set level using a sound level meter, then you tell the program that you are using the level, i.e. 75 db. The next step is to calibrate the mic to make sure there is enough input level for the mic to get a good reading (This is done by clicking a button in the software). After that you just tell it that you want to measure a speaker or subwoofer and do a frequency sweep of a specified frequency range. That is it very simply. It will do much more if you care to poke around and check it out, but for this time you just want to capture a frequency sweep and look at it on your screen to see if it is like or not like the other graph generated.

BTW, you must use line in and line out on your sound card. You can also loop line in and line out so that the program will measure the FR of your sound card and generate a compensation file that it will automatically load each time you use the software. You can load mic calibration files also. let me know if you have any problems. I've gotten pretty familiar with it. You shouldn't have any.

Chuck

[Brian Walter]

Chuck, it doesn' t sound too tough, but neither do any of the other programs until you sit down and actually try to interpret the instructions. I assume I simply run my mic through my existing mic preamp and then to the line in, and when I click the calibration button the program will adjust the soundcard level to the proper record levels. If Speaker Workshop did that, the program would be easy to use. Thanks for the instructions, I'll have to find time to try it out.

Brian Walter

[chasw98]

You got it. Thats exactly what it does. You won't have any problems.

[Dougie085]

Wasnt somone working on a center xover to use for the seas tweet? Just curious if this is comming along or what not....right now I'm leaning twards the RS28A simply because there isnt a seas center.

[Rick Craig]

I think I finally got all the bugs out of my measurement setup. So here is the response of my RS-TMWW with the Seas tweeter:

Note that I modified my crossover to reduce the tweeter output by approximately 1 db.

Brian Walter


Do you know what the gate frequency is ? The 250hz dip may be a floor reflection. Can you move the microphone back to 2M and shoot some vertical and horizontal off-axis curves? I'm working on an alternative crossover and some comparison curves would be nice.

[Dennis Murphy]

Wasnt somone working on a center xover to use for the seas tweet? Just curious if this is comming along or what not....right now I'm leaning twards the RS28A simply because there isnt a seas center.

I believe that would be me. It's my next project. I'll try and take driver measurements today and have something by next weekend.

[Brian Bunge]

Dennis,

Since you've designed this speaker both with the Dayton tweeter and the Seas metal dome can you tell us which you prefer and why? I'm not concerned about cost differences, only the sound! ;)

[Brian Walter]

You got it. Thats exactly what it does. You won't have any problems.

Chuck, those are famous last words, "You won't have any problems". Hate to break the news, but I can't get Room EQ to talk to or work with my sound card. It keeps telling me it can't find the wave control for the selected output or the volume control for the selected output. I'm using an M-Audio Delta 410 sound card and initially tried the same settings as I was using with justLMS, That's with Wave Out 1/2 selected and HW In 1/2 selected but that didn't seem to work, so I proceeded to select a variety of settings, but nothing seems to work.

I think I'll just give up trying to learn another program, I've had enough problems with what I'm using. I think part of my problem is that I really don't understand the terminology used with sound cards, and the possible mix ups that entail. For example when the program generates a test signal, is it communicating with the Wave Out channel or the HW in? I'm thinking that works internally with the sound card and has the sound card send out the signal via the Wave Out and never even works with the HW In until I send the signal back via a microphone or a test loop cable. At any rate, it doesn't work.

Brian Walter

[Dennis Murphy]

Dennis,

Since you've designed this speaker both with the Dayton tweeter and the Seas metal dome can you tell us which you prefer and why? I'm not concerned about cost differences, only the sound! ;)

Hi I really can't answer that question. The Seas measures a little better, but I've only been able to build one system at a time, since I only have one cabinet. So I haven't done any A-B comparisons. Based on long-term memory, however, I really don't see how you could go wrong with the Seas. It's cheaper, measures better, and from an absolute standpoint, sounds fine.

[ifeliciano]

I haven't found much on speaker gasketing tape, so I am going to assume most people don't use it. I am about to cut the recess holes and wanted to know how deep to make them. The gasketing tape would require a deeper recess.

I know this might be a late reply, but PartsExpress carries the speaker gasketing.

Speaker Gasket (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=260-540&DID=7&raid=44&rak=260-540)


Ivan

[Dougie085]

I really don't see how you could go wrong with the Seas. It's cheaper, measures better, and from an absolute standpoint, sounds fine.

This is why I want to go the seas route. Sounds just as good most likely if not a little better and is cheaper. Doesnt make sence to me to spend more on somthing unless its a lot better :)

[m1ke323]

I have gotten a lot of requests lately for a copy of the rounded enclosure template that I made out of steel. The steel one has been requested already, and I am shipping out like 5 mdf templates to other people who wanted one. I wanted to ask if anyone else wants one before I ship them all out. I would prefer to ship them all out at once. If you do, pm me your address and I can ship it out later this week. I would only ask that you pay for shipping.

Mike

[m1ke323]

Hey guys, I am finishing up my speakers this week. (By finish I mean, I will be ready to veneer them). I took chasw's advice and cut up my crossover board and have come up with this layout. I plan on soldering these up tomorrow so if I have any layout problems, let me know soon please. I don't have anything secured down yet so anything can be moved.

If the only thing that matters is inductor --> inductor distance like this website says http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm I should be fine. As a double check, caps and resistors can be places anywhere right?

This question is going to scare you guys with how noob it is. But in the low pass section, it calls for 140uf cap, my caps are 100uf and 40uf just like the BOM calls for. These are wired in parallel correct, if I remember physics correctly wiring in parallel will add their capacitance together? If anyone has a picture of their low pass XO I would really appreciate it. I have only seen the mid and high pass sections so far.

Thanks, Mike

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5223/dscn0984bc3.jpg

[Brian Bunge]

Mike,

Yes, when capacitors are wired in parallel you add their values.

[Dennis Murphy]

That's looking good. No problems. So--what say we go into business on this? You turn out about 10 of those great cabinets a week, wire up your professional-looking crossovers, and I'll tell people where to send the checks (that would be Bethesda, MD). You'll get all the glory, and all I'll have to show for it is a few thousand bucks. Sounds perfect.

[chasw98]

Mike:
Are you using the Seas or the RS28 tweeter?

[Brian Walter]

If the only thing that matters is inductor --> inductor distance like this website says http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm I should be fine. As a double check, caps and resistors can be places anywhere right?http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5223/dscn0984bc3.jpg

Mike, assuming you are going to be placing the crossover boards next to each other just like in the photo, I would suggest that your orient a few of the coils slightly differently than shown. I would usggest the following changes:
Left Board - stand coil on edge, hole facing left and right
Middle board, no changes
Right board, Left top coil - no change
Right board, Left bottom coil - no change
Right board, upper right coil - no change
Right board, lower right coil - stand on edge, hole facing left and right

Making these changes will keep as many of the coils at right angles to each other as is possible. Right now you have 4 coils all oriented with the axis pointing striaght up, this is not ideal. Doing it the way I called out will put the only two that are oriented the same diaginally oposite each other, as far apart as is possible.

Now lets see some pictures :)

Brian Walter

[m1ke323]

Thanks for the tips Brian, as well as the compliments guys.

Chasw98, I am making the rs28 version. When I first started out, I didn't know the seas was just as good for less money. Although I might still have gone the same route just becuase I am picking and like the looks of the RS28.

Dennis, it's only fair you get the money, you did design the speaker. Thanks for that by the way. ;x( Although, these rounded enclosures are terrible thing for a perfectionist like myself. The rounded sides aren't as easy as you would think.

I will have pictures up later this week, of at least one ready to be veneered speaker. The second speaker may take me until Saturday. Tomorrow I will hopefully be getting my veneer. I live in Green Bay, which is right by Denmark. I will be calling Tape-ease tomorrow to see if I can come pick out my venner sheets in person. I have it narrowed down to a variant of cherry or mahogany, with a deep red/dark stain.

My goal for these speakers is to look similar to the B&W 803's. Here is a picture.

http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1154790738.jpg

[Brian Walter]

these rounded enclosures are terrible thing for a perfectionist like myself. The rounded sides aren't as easy as you would think.

Mike, I agree the rounded enclosures present a little bit of a challenge for a perfectionist. But overall, I didn't think they were very hard, mostly time consuming. You really can't rush any phase of the process or skip any steps or they won't turn out "perfect". I realize I used a slightly different construction process, but I'd guess the construction time/effort probably isn't all that much different between the two.

The one thing I did that I wish I hadn't is I applied a layer of water based ceramic tile adhesive to the insides of the cabinets to help deaden them. It helped to a degree, but in the process it swelled the MDF ever so slightly and now I can see where the seam is between the MDF and my 1/4" plywood beneath the veneer on the top. I should have sealed the inside of the cabinet before applying the compound or used something else to deaden the sound.

Brian Walter

[Dennis Murphy]

In checking the crossover parts list from page one, I noticed that someone has apparently attempted to adjust some of the resistor values for the built-in dcr of the coils that follow the resistor. The result is strange values like 5.6 ohms and .82 ohms. How did you interpret these values? Did you use 6 ohm and 1 ohm resistors?

[dawaro]

In checking the crossover parts list from page one, I noticed that someone has apparently attempted to adjust some of the resistor values for the built-in dcr of the coils that follow the resistor. The result is strange values like 5.6 ohms and .82 ohms. How did you interpret these values? Did you use 6 ohm and 1 ohm resistors?

Those are standard values available from Parts Express. They are used in combination with the dcr of the coils to meet the specified circuit resistance as closely as possible.

[Dennis Murphy]

Those are standard values available from Parts Express. They are used in combination with the dcr of the coils to meet the specified circuit resistance as closely as possible.

.82 is a standard value? who would have thunk it. In any event, if I specify 1 ohms for the resistor in front of a coil, I've already taken into account the dcr of the coil. That is, the total resistance in the design is something like 1.36 ohms, or 1.22 ohms, etc, depending on what particular coil is at issue. I do that so people can order a standard value just reading off the resistor values. I try to specify that if the shown value is less than .5 ohms, then there is no resistor, and that's just lspCAD's way of showing the coil dcr. I'll go back tonight and check exactly what I have saved for this design. We're not talking large differences here, so the speaker won't stand or fall on the distinction. But even small differences like this do have an observable impact on FR and phase in a shunt circuit.

[Dennis Murphy]

OK I checked my file, and I did intend for the resistor values to be 6 ohms and 1 ohm. But it really doesn't make any doo-da difference. The impact is microscopic, and I'm nor even sure which is better. So we can go back to worrying about peace in the Mideast and the price of oil.

[chasw98]

10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 27, 30,
33, 36, 39, 43, 47, 51, 56, 62, 68, 75, 82, 91.

These are 5% standard values that are good from .1 to 22 meg.

Dennis, what do you use to measure inductors? A meter, a PC, something else? Or do you trust that the inductors you buy are what they say they are?

Chuck

PS, I sent my mic off to Kim Girardin for calibration. Right now I have a dip at 242 Hz, and a rise at 320 Hz, and the top end starts rising at 10Khz. I think a mic that has a proper cal file will help some of that. I shall see when it gets back.

[Dennis Murphy]

PS, I sent my mic off to Kim Girardin for calibration. Right now I have a dip at 242 Hz, and a rise at 320 Hz, and the top end starts rising at 10Khz. I think a mic that has a proper cal file will help some of that. I shall see when it gets back.[/QUOTE]


I can check inductors using Praxis or LAud, but I don't bother unless it's used and the label has fallen off. I know whether something is off when I measure the final design with the crossover in place. The dip at around 250 Hz is a floor bounce cancellation. It's in my measurements as well. The rising response above 10 khz is probably a calibration issue.

[chasw98]

Thanks Dennis. When I get the mic back, I am taking the unit outside and measuring it in free air (off the ground on the edge of a table facing into my back yard). Hopefully that will show me the response without room coloration.

Chuck

[ifeliciano]

Just giving you guys an update on where I am with building my TMWW speakers. It has taken me along time to build the enclosures becuase I built a pair and wasn't happy with my design, so I remade them differently and they are much more sturdy and square this way.

You can't really see it in the pictures but on my new enclosures I rabbited everything and used a roundover on all my internal braces to clean things up a bit. This made dry fitting the enclosures alot easier.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/9327/dscn0928bd7.jpg http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9066/dscn0929gc1.jpg


Hi ya'll

I've been interested in building a set of speakers for my HT and seems this design is ahead by several points. :T I have a few questions regarding enclosure volume. Obviously this enclosure that Mike designed is much different from the original rectangular enclosure design.


Mike, did you adjust for enclosure volume on your curved design vs. the original ?
If you did adjust, by how manu cu. ft. ?
If no enclosure volume adjusments were made between the original and curved enclosures, will the XO design change ?
:confused: :confused:

[Brian Walter]

Hi ya'll


Mike, did you adjust for enclosure volume on your curved design vs. the original ?
If you did adjust, by how manu cu. ft. ?
If no enclosure volume adjusments were made between the original and curved enclosures, will the XO design change ?
:confused: :confused:

Hi, I'm not mike, but his cabinet design is based off of my design and I can't speak specifically for his design, but in mine, I pretty much match the volume for the woofers, but my midrange/tweeter compartment is quite a bit larger than the original design. I think Mikes is much closer to the original volume for the midrange. This really shouldn't make much difference in sound as the volume of the box primarily affects the roll off rate of the drivers and has some affect on internal resonances and standing waves. The frequency response around the crossover points will not be altered by slight variations in the cabinet volume, so no change in crossover design is necessary.

You can see pictures of my completed speakers at post 959 and the plans are available in posts 921 & 922.

Brian Walter

[ifeliciano]

Hi, I'm not mike, but his cabinet design is based off of my design and I can't speak specifically for his design, but in mine, I pretty much match the volume for the woofers, but my midrange/tweeter compartment is quite a bit larger than the original design. I think Mikes is much closer to the original volume for the midrange. This really shouldn't make much difference in sound as the volume of the box primarily affects the roll off rate of the drivers and has some affect on internal resonances and standing waves. The frequency response around the crossover points will not be altered by slight variations in the cabinet volume, so no change in crossover design is necessary.

You can see pictures of my completed speakers at post 959 and the plans are available in posts 921 & 922.

Brian Walter


Hi Brian,

Sorry for giving all the glory to Mike :oops: I appreciate your answer.


Ivan

[Brian Walter]

Hi Brian,

Sorry for giving all the glory to Mike :oops: I appreciate your answer.

Ivan

No problem, Mike deserves as much credit or glory for adapting my design to his needs as I do for adapting the original design to my needs. I just think it's great that everyone is willing to share their work and skills.

Good luck with whatever way you go and please share your progress with us.

Brian

[Rick Craig]

I did some measurements of the WWMT drivers today. This may have surfaced earlier but has anyone considered series connections for the RS225 woofers? Looking at the driver output over a few different angles I think it would be better balanced for most situations. I know you'll give up some output but the tonality and system impedance will be more optimal.

[dynamowhum]

Hi guys first time poster here. I have read this thread with great interest for several days. I have wanted to build my own speakers for some time. I was all set to build the adires extremis stuff last year when Rita hit my area and a few things changed. Well to make a long story short I am glad I didn't build those speakers after reading this thread. I stumbled on this site from avsforum diy section. This is an outstanding site indeed.
To keep on track with this stuff I would like to build the DM version of the sealed center first. I have a sheet of MDF sitting in my theater room right now for it. $32 at lowes what a rip. Just another one of the gifts given from Rita. I have a few initial questions I have not seen covered yet. Of course I am somewhat brain numb from power reading all the posts LOL. So anyway here goes.
1. Can my Panasonic XR-57 handle these speakers? I have read several threads on avsforum that say it can handle 4 ohm loads. If it will not I can get another Pany to dual amp it.
2. I am interested in making a seperate enclosure for the XOs. Is there any heat issues with XOs where I would have to have a much bigger volume box than the actual size of the board and components?
3. And lastly for now anyway. Can I put these external XO boxes on my equipment rack which would be 30', wire wise, from my speakers?
I would like to reinterate that I am simply delighted with what I have found on this board. I have been on several as my interests are fairly broad. Some of those boards I no longer visit because of all the flaming going on. The written word is great but it isn't like talking to someone face to face. Because of this things can be taken the wrong way more often because it is easier to misunderstand peoples intent without the facial, tonal and body ques we get from every day conversation. I appreciate the restraint I have seen demonstrated here. God bless and you all have a great day.

[chasw98]

1. Can my Panasonic XR-57 handle these speakers? I have read several threads on avsforum that say it can handle 4 ohm loads. If it will not I can get another Pany to dual amp it.
2. I am interested in making a seperate enclosure for the XOs. Is there any heat issues with XOs where I would have to have a much bigger volume box than the actual size of the board and components?
3. And lastly for now anyway. Can I put these external XO boxes on my equipment rack which would be 30', wire wise, from my speakers?

Welcome. I will have to say with a screen name like that some of us older gentleman will appreciate it!
Questions:
1) Your Panny should handle these speakers just fine. I have run my mains and center on a variety of stuff from a $250.00 HTIB to very large audiopile amps.
2) You can make a seperate enclosure but there is really no need to. I think most of the management here would agree that it would be best to mount them in the enclosure.
3)There is no heat to speak of with XO's, but 30' is a long way to travel whether external or internal.

I ended up routing out a panel on the rear of my center and mains that allow me access to the XO's easily.

Chuck

[m1ke323]

Well I am ready to veneer my speakers now. I finished them up this morning and then finished routering templates for other people on this board. :B

I plan on using the Hot Melt Glue from veneersupplies.com to attach my cherry veneer. I had already bought contact cement but after reading joewoodworker, he really doesn't like contact cement. I am wondering if the Hot Melt Glue will work with my 2ply wood backed cherry veneer though. I bought it from tape-ease , it is 3/64's thick. http://tapeease.com/nblwood.htm Do you think the iron on method will work with this thick of a veneer?

I ended up using 3/8" bendable ply to line the sides. I used 2 sheets of that, and then 2 sheets of 1/8" mdf handypanel from HD to go over the sides, back and top. The front 1.5" is made of 2 sheets of 3/4" mdf, the top/bottom is 1.5" plus the 1/8" handypanel, and the back is 3/4" plus a 1/4" handypanel. The handypanel has a much smoother surface and provides a great consisant raidus bend due to it being a manufactored wood and not having any grain.

If anyone who is making these wants some help, I learned alot while building these and have quite a few good tips.

Here are some pictures of my speakers thus far. So no one is confused, the hole on the back is for the terminal cup, not an incredibly small port.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6163/dscn10041wc2.jpg http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3262/dscn10101mj6.jpg http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/7594/dscn10121qa2.jpg

[chasw98]

Mike:
They are looking good! How can you stand it not mounting the drivers and taking a short test drive? Bet you can't wait.

Chuck

PS Make sure you put a tshirt or some cotton cloth between the iron and the veneer when you iron it. The iron will burn the wood.

[m1ke323]

I do have that feeling chuck, even more so becuase I just bought a new Rotel 1080 for these speakers. I am also buying a new receiver as well, most likely the Denon 2807 but I am also looking at a Yamaha RX-2600 and the Pioneer VSX-82TXS.

Today I had to router out like 10 templates for other people on this board and that kept me from soldering my crossovers together and being able to test them today.

Thanks for the tip chuck, I knew about the tshirt/cotton cloth thing, but I am still wondering if the iron on method will work with 2ply wood backed veneer. I think most people are using 10mil paper backed with the iron on method, anyone know if it will work with my stuff? Thanks for the compliments too chuck.

[chasw98]

Mu boss just bought a 2807 and it sounds pretty good. Pmazz can probably definitively answer your question on the veneer, but common sense says it will work if you go slow and steady and don't rush it. Remember the heat has to permeate through a thicker surface than the 10 mil, so it will take longer for the heat to transfer through the thicker material. Plus you might want to test it on a scrap piece before committing to the big enchilada. I would hate to have to build them again. I think you already started over once when you weren't happy with the way they were going, so you know!

[Dennis Murphy]

I did some measurements of the WWMT drivers today. This may have surfaced earlier but has anyone considered series connections for the RS225 woofers? Looking at the driver output over a few different angles I think it would be better balanced for most situations. I know you'll give up some output but the tonality and system impedance will be more optimal.


Hi Rick That's an interesting point. In checking my measurements, the main problem seemed to be a room mode around 50 Hz. If I had wired the woofs in series, it seems to me that I would have ended up with the same general response, but at substantially lower sensitivity. I would have just had to pad down the mid and tweeter more than I did, and the room peak at 50 Hz would still be there relative to the output over the broad frequency range. Could you be a little more specific about what frequency characteristcs you're observing that could be addressed with series wiring?

[m1ke323]

Mu boss just bought a 2807 and it sounds pretty good. Pmazz can probably definitively answer your question on the veneer, but common sense says it will work if you go slow and steady and don't rush it. Remember the heat has to permeate through a thicker surface than the 10 mil, so it will take longer for the heat to transfer through the thicker material. Plus you might want to test it on a scrap piece before committing to the big enchilada. I would hate to have to build them again. I think you already started over once when you weren't happy with the way they were going, so you know!
I agree on making some test pieces first Chuck. I did start over on my enclosures already, but at least it was near the beginning. This time around they are turning out much better, I am very pleased with them. This is also one of the main reasions I am opting for the iron on method. I really like the ability to reheat/active the glue if bubbling occurs. Putting contact cement on my enclosures I spent so much time on scares me. 8O

So the 2807 only sounds pretty good? Hmmm?

[dynamowhum]

Chuck,
Thanks for the quick replies. Didn't really expect that. I am at 50 one of the older guy probably. Before I put up sheetrock in my theater I bi wired all the front speakers and IB sub positions in 12 qauge wire so I don't think I will have any trouble with length of run. I like the idea of external XOs for ease of working on them. Still would it be a problem to have them in my equipment rack?

[Brian Walter]

If anyone who is making these wants some help, I learned a lot while building these and have quite a few good tips.


Mike, they're looking pretty good. I know what you mean though about after putting all that effort into the speakers, you don't want to screw up at this stage. I would suggest trying out the iron on method on a few scraps, on a curved surface, just to be sure. I spent about 2 weeks playing around with dyes and stains before I was ready to put it on the cabinets. Don't rush it.

In regards to the part of your message I quoted above, I would find it interesting if we could discuss the two different methods we used to construct these speakers. I too learned quite a bit during construction, but didn't really pass on all that much of the trial and error portion of the design. I was tempted to use your approach, but being more familiar with the strip approach elected to use that method. Maybe next time I'll try something more along the lines you did. The main thing I would like to accomplish with a different method would be speed. Nothing I did was hard, but everything seemed to take twice as long as I thought it should.

Brian Walter

[chasw98]

So the 2807 only sounds pretty good? Hmmm?

To be fair, it is located in a 17th floor penthouse on the Atlantic ocean with floor to ceiling glass windows covering 1/3 of the room at the rear. Tha main speakers are old Boston Acoustics 2 way and the sub is a very itty bitty 10" of unknown origin. He has asked me to help him get up to speed with some decent speakers and a good sub (DIY, you know, probably a rythmik). The auto eq function made a very big difference in the sound. It is a good receiver but I have sort of soured on the "Denon" sound after getting used to more and cleaner power. To me, it seems that it concentrates more on features and, oh yeah, there are some amplifiers here to produce sound. It would be a great starting point, with the idea of putting some good power amps on it in the future. It would probably make a very good pre/pro.

[Rick Craig]

Hi Rick That's an interesting point. In checking my measurements, the main problem seemed to be a room mode around 50 Hz. If I had wired the woofs in series, it seems to me that I would have ended up with the same general response, but at substantially lower sensitivity. I would have just had to pad down the mid and tweeter more than I did, and the room peak at 50 Hz would still be there relative to the output over the broad frequency range. Could you be a little more specific about what frequency characteristcs you're observing that could be addressed with series wiring?

I overlaid some response curves and the paralleled woofer output was an average of 2-3db higher than the RS150.

[Dennis Murphy]

I overlaid some response curves and the paralleled woofer output was an average of 2-3db higher than the RS150.

We're probably using different measurement techniques for the woofer. Using my usual approach, the woofer and the 150 are at roughly equivalent levels except for the woofer's baffle step peak at 1 kHz. Taking into account BSC and the roll-off of the woofer from the crossover, I end up requiring padding on the mid. It might be interesting to try a series hook-up. It seems to me you will end up with a hole in the 200-400 Hz region, but there might be less room-induced boom at the lower frequencies.

[swithey]

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6163/dscn10041wc2.jpg
Nice Job on those enclosures :T I hope mine turn out as nice.

BTW -- I completely understand about applying the veneer. One thing I have learned is don't do it when you are tired. It was a lot easier for me to make stupid mistakes when I was tired.

[kgveteran]

Mike323,
Wow, those look great.

Here is a quick pic of the three centers finally dialed in with the subs and all seems to be fine.I had the L&R vertical, but as I listened more and more they sound seemless horizontal. They create such a sound stage.

I've been listening to U2 rattle and Hum, Keb' Mo' Sessions at west 54th st. , Standing in the Shaddows of Motown, Eagles Hell freezes over. They all sound great.

Thanx again to all!

KG

[m1ke323]

kgveteran, those look great. I still need to build one of those for my center. I can't build it until december though when I am out of college for a month. Thanks for the compliments.

Mike

[yousuredo2]

If anyone who is making these wants some help, I learned alot while building these and have quite a few good tips.



yes please do share...
I am in still in the process of designing, etc...
I have my braces cut...
Mine is slightly different from this shape, but not much...
Mine are not as curved...
I do have some 3/8"MDF I was planning on using to do my sides with...

[Rick Craig]

We're probably using different measurement techniques for the woofer. Using my usual approach, the woofer and the 150 are at roughly equivalent levels except for the woofer's baffle step peak at 1 kHz. Taking into account BSC and the roll-off of the woofer from the crossover, I end up requiring padding on the mid. It might be interesting to try a series hook-up. It seems to me you will end up with a hole in the 200-400 Hz region, but there might be less room-induced boom at the lower frequencies.

I did some work on the crossover today and it works quite well with the woofers in series.

[ibilisi]

I must say, it is amazing how much costs at partsexpress have gone up on the crossover components.

<edit>
NM looking more closely, the differences aren't as great as I initially thought.
Except on #255-430, #255-436 $$
</edit>

[dynamowhum]

amen brother amen. Anything to do with copper has nearly doubled. Last night went to lowes and got 50ft of 12 gauge speaker wire and it cost me $32.

[ifeliciano]

Well I am ready to veneer my speakers now. I finished them up this morning and then finished routering templates for other people on this board. :B

I plan on using the Hot Melt Glue from veneersupplies.com to attach my cherry veneer. I had already bought contact cement but after reading joewoodworker, he really doesn't like contact cement. I am wondering if the Hot Melt Glue will work with my 2ply wood backed cherry veneer though. I bought it from tape-ease , it is 3/64's thick. http://tapeease.com/nblwood.htm Do you think the iron on method will work with this thick of a veneer?

Mike,

The cabinets look awsome :T From reading on Joe's site, the is this link, Veneering w/o Vacuum (http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/no-vacuumpress-veneering.htm). Towards the middle of the page you'll find "Method 2: Iron-On Veneering". There he writes that the Heat Lock Glue is compatible with Wood-backed veneer. I believe NBL is a Wood-backed veneer. ;)

Good luck with the veneering.


Ivan

[m1ke323]

Thanks ifeliciano, I actually ordered the hotmelt glue from veneersupplies yesterday and I will veneer them this weekend. Hopefully I can finish staining them monday, tuesday, and wednesday of next week.

I need to get them done becuase I am moving back to my apartment for college, if I don't finish them now I will have a very stinky apartment while finishing. As it is, I will be building my crossovers there.

I read alot about the iron on veneering and feel pretty confident I can do a good job with it. The best part is if I make a mistake, I can go back and reheat/activate the glue and fix it.

Mike

[hohe2112]

I believe that would be me. It's my next project. I'll try and take driver measurements today and have something by next weekend.


I too have been waiting patiently and quietly (my first post here in fact) so that I can get all the parts I need to do the front three channels of my 7.1 system (with LR TMWW towers and WMTW center) to replace my aging Polk Monitor 5b's. I'd really like to match them all as closely as possible and really like the sound of the Seas tweeters. I figure by the time I get these done someone (hint, hint) will get around to proposing a design for some compact MT surrounds using the Seas and maybe an RS150. :B

I guess I'm not in a huge hurry because it'll be another year before I get our new house finished, although I would like to take advantage of the little bit of free time I have now before I start construction...

BTW, thanks for all the work all you guys put into this stuff. ;x( It's amazing at how far the DIY scene has progressed in the last few years I've been away from it, although the internet sure helps by bringing everyone together!

80sMike

[WillyD]

will get around to proposing a design for some compact MT surrounds using the Seas and maybe an RS150.

http://home.stx.rr.com/poneal/pdfs/RS150RS28.pdf

I know it doesn't use the Seas tweeter, but that is sort of what you are asking for, yes?

[dynamowhum]

If some one where to bi-amp either the mains or the center, would you seperate the woofers from the mid and tweeter? If this was done what would the impedence be seen by your amp? Sorry for another noob question.
I've got my parts ordered for the center 8/25/06 hope they are in by the 31st. Just hope Ernesto goes somewhere else, like out to the middle of the Atlantic and poop out.
Mike and Brian when it comes time to do my mains I might be giving you gentlemen a question or two on those lovely enclosers. Once again I gotta say this is one outstanding site. Cheers

[hohe2112]

Yep, thanks, that is actually pretty close to the size I was thinking of. The space these will occupy in the new house will be the great room, not a dedicated theater/media room (unfortunately), so they need to be relatively small and unobtrusive. In fact I may do something other than rectangular, along the lines of these: http://zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker20a.html.

It will be a challenging room to set up acoustically. The room is 14'x22' with 12' high end walls and a two story vaulted ceiling. It's essentially added to the left side of a normal two story house, if that makes any sense. Looking at the theater screen, the entire right side of the listening space will be open 12 feet into the rest of the first story space (it's a very open floorplan), while the left is a 12'-18' high rake wall. This will undoubtedly create all kinds of odd reflections and coloration. One thing that helped me decide to build these TMWWs and WMTWs were all the comments about the excellent imaging and dispertion. Hopefully they'll be fairly tolerant of this less than ideal installation. I still haven't decided quite how to position the side surrounds, but the rears can go on the back wall. I had thought about adding a column on the right side with a matching one on the left and either building the side surrounds into the columns or attaching ones to them at a better height, but I don't think I want to break up the space like that. That leaves positioning the surrounds very high at 9+ feet and angled down. For that, they'll need to have pretty good dispertion. I don't generally do any critical listening in full surround, so it will mainly be for movies. Then again, the surrounds in the local cinema hang at least 15' up the wall... ;)

[jonathanb3478]

That leaves positioning the surrounds very high at 9+ feet and angled down. For that, they'll need to have pretty good dispertion. I don't generally do any critical listening in full surround, so it will mainly be for movies. Then again, the surrounds in the local cinema hang at least 15' up the wall... ;)


Have you thought about using a ceiling mount for the surrounds that attaches to the ceiling and drops them down a couple (or more) feet? Shouldn't be too difficult to use a mount made of metal, paint the entire mount white (or whatever your wall color is), and finish your DIY surrounds in the same color. Just a thought.

Oh, and I have never considered any of my local cinemas to be a great paradigm of audio quality ;)

[swithey]

I'd really like to match them all as closely as possible and really like the sound of the Seas tweeters. I figure by the time I get these done someone (hint, hint) will get around to proposing a design for some compact MT surrounds using the Seas and maybe an RS150. :B

80sMike
Mike,

You might get in contact with Rick Craig of Selah Audio (http://www.selahaudio.com/) if you are serious about some small nice MT surrounds. He designed a custom set for me using the Seas and the Dayton drivers to match the WWMTs LCRs in this thread. Because of the limited depth in my columns, I chose to have something custom designed. His pricing is very reasonable and I highly recommend his services. I plan to get them built in the next week or so.

http://swithey.gotdns.org/swithey/ht/avs/rearsurrounds.jpg

[Dennis Murphy]

OK--I had to take annual leave to do it--but I finally got the drivers installed in the center channel cabinet, have taken good measurements, and have everything imported and set up in my design software. So it really will be done this week.

[soho54]

I'm sure there will be several people happy about this news. :T
Don't waste to much of that down time on us though. ;)

[Brian Bunge]

Hey Jacob, where's St. Mary's, GA? I'm originally from Milledgeville!

[soho54]

I'm originally from Milledgeville! So you know the joke that comes to mind. :B

St Mary's/Kingsland is Exit 1, 3, and 6 on I95. On the coast, at the GA-FL line.

[hohe2112]

Johnathan and Steve, thanks for the input. I'm still a year away from having to come up with a solution, so naturally I'm obsessing over it now :B ...Now if I could only finish the plans for electrical, plumbing, heating, finish carpentry, etc... Ahh, well, maybe I'll be able to concentrate better once I get the new mains done - Only six months behind schedule so far :banghead:

Dennis, your news is a mixed blessing. I'm chomping at the bit to get started, and yet now that it's close I have no clue where I'll find the time. I'm down to 4-5 hours sleep as it is... :tired:

Honestly, thanks a ton for the work you're putting into this. It will come around to you in spades, methinks.

[Brian Bunge]

So you know the joke that comes to mind. :B

St Mary's/Kingsland is Exit 1, 3, and 6 on I95. On the coast, at the GA-FL line.

Yeah, yeah, I've heard them all before! :)

So you're fairly close to Jacksonville then, right? You should come on straight down I-95 to Palm Bay sometime and hear my big 3-way towers. They're pretty damn awesome.

[soho54]

So you're fairly close to Jacksonville then, right? You should come on straight down I-95 to Palm Bay sometime and hear my big 3-way towers. They're pretty damn awesome. Yeah, about 25 min north. I would love to, but I have a had time finding the time to get to Jacksonville. :roll: That's what, about a 5-6 hour drive from JAX? Someday.

I almost built a pair of those 3-ways, but the wife decided she liked the Arvos better. My Arvos RS28s were actually bought for the 3-ways. :B

[chasw98]

Here it is. My almost completely finished center channel using DM XO with an RS28. No polyurethane on the oak and no polishing of the top, but Ernesto is coming and I didn't want to leave it in the garage, so I will do that later.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/DSCN3853.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/DSCN3854.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/DSCN3850.jpg

And all three of them together.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/DSCN3845.jpg

[m1ke323]

Chasw, you make these amazing speakers and only show us these little thumbnails practicaly. High Quality Please :B

[chasw98]

Chasw, you make these amazing speakers and only show us these little thumbnails practicaly. High Quality Please :B

Go here:

http://www.cwitt.com/cc/thumbs_d/thumbs_p.html

and look at the full res! :T

or these........
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/Full%20Size/DSCN3853.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/Full%20Size/DSCN3850.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/Full%20Size/DSCN3854.jpg

[Jim Holtz]

Here it is. My almost completely finished center channel using DM XO with an RS28. No polyurethane on the oak and no polishing of the top, but Ernesto is coming and I didn't want to leave it in the garage, so I will do that later.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/DSCN3853.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/DSCN3854.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/DSCN3850.jpg

And all three of them together.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/DSCN3845.jpg


Hi Chuck,

The center looks great. Excellent craftsmanship! :T

Jim

[Brian Walter]

Here it is. My almost completely finished center channel using DM XO with an RS28. No polyurethane on the oak and no polishing of the top, but Ernesto is coming and I didn't want to leave it in the garage, so I will do that later.


Very nice Chuck, you're going to have a mighty fine looking and sounding setup when you get through. Your an inspiration to all of us.

Brian Walter

[dynamowhum]

Chuck thanks for sharing the pictures. Very nice work. I am now a little confused I thought the rounded over edges where supposed to be on the long side of the speaker box. Could you educate a noob on that please? Thanks and once again nice looking setup.

[chasw98]

Hi Chuck,
The center looks great. Excellent craftsmanship!
Jim

Thanks, Jim. Coming from you that makes me feel proud!


Very nice Chuck, you're going to have a mighty fine looking and sounding setup when you get through. Your an inspiration to all of us.

Brian Walter


Thanks, Brian. I'm still nit picking the fine points of setup, but I'm moving forward.


Chuck thanks for sharing the pictures. Very nice work. I am now a little confused I thought the rounded over edges where supposed to be on the long side of the speaker box. Could you educate a noob on that please? Thanks and once again nice looking setup.


I wasn't sure about the rounded edges either. When I asked about rounded edges for the center channel, I was told that they are not really needed due to the shape of the baffle and driver positioning. So I put the rounded edges in so that the center would match the L & R WWMT's. It is purely esthetic on the center whereas it is integral on the mains due to the driver positioning. Otherwise I have really screwed up. And I got the crossover right the first time on this one!

Thanks for all the compliments. I appreciate it!

Chuck

And thanks to Dennis for a great design. :T

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks, Jim. Coming from you that makes me feel proud!



Thanks, Brian. I'm still nit picking the fine points of setup, but I'm moving forward.



I wasn't sure about the rounded edges either. When I asked about rounded edges for the center channel, I was told that they are not really needed due to the shape of the baffle and driver positioning. So I put the rounded edges in so that the center would match the L & R WWMT's. It is purely esthetic on the center whereas it is integral on the mains due to the driver positioning. Otherwise I have really screwed up. And I got the crossover right the first time on this one!

Thanks for all the compliments. I appreciate it!

Chuck

And thanks to Dennis for a great design. :T


So, how does it sound? :) Does the RS28 integrate well with the mains?

Jim

[chasw98]

So, how does it sound? :) Does the RS28 integrate well with the mains?

Jim

It integrates very well with the mains. I was listening to Vivaldi's 4 seasons last night in "5 channel stereo" and it became very apparent that the RS28 tweeter is different than the Seas. The RS28 does not seem to have the extended response or presence that the Seas portrays. This is not to say that the RS28 does not reproduce the high end, just differently than the Seas. I have not measured the center yet (Kim G is calibrating my mic!). OTOH, all my measurements so far show the mains with the seas tweeter have response from 10K on up that climbs upwards. I am 50+ years old and so some account must be taken in for these old rock&roll ears that have heard their share of loud live music. My plans are to take a free weekend (as if that will happen) and set up an outdoor measurement rig in my back yard. I am going to measure just about anything I own, WWMT, WMTW, Ascend 340, Ascend 170, and BEST Buy Insignia. That should give me fairly accurate FR graphs devoid of room anomalies. Then I will be able to compare in room with outdoor measurements and see what is induced. Of course any data I come up with will appear here in some form.

Normally I seriously listen to music in 2 channel with sub. Movies use all 7 speakers. For movies the soundstage is wonderful and moves from left to center to right very well. There appears to be no lobing with the WMTW that I noticed with my previous MTM center. I do have a Seas tweeter to press in to service when DM publishes the WMTW with Seas and I will try it.

Chuck

[dynamowhum]

thanks chuck for answering my question. outstanding work.
fred

[dynamowhum]

My center channel parts should be in today. Looking forward to it.
fred

[dynamowhum]

Parts just got in 7:00pm, busy tommorow

[Jim Holtz]

It integrates very well with the mains. I was listening to Vivaldi's 4 seasons last night in "5 channel stereo" and it became very apparent that the RS28 tweeter is different than the Seas. The RS28 does not seem to have the extended response or presence that the Seas portrays. This is not to say that the RS28 does not reproduce the high end, just differently than the Seas. I have not measured the center yet (Kim G is calibrating my mic!). OTOH, all my measurements so far show the mains with the seas tweeter have response from 10K on up that climbs upwards. I am 50+ years old and so some account must be taken in for these old rock&roll ears that have heard their share of loud live music. My plans are to take a free weekend (as if that will happen) and set up an outdoor measurement rig in my back yard. I am going to measure just about anything I own, WWMT, WMTW, Ascend 340, Ascend 170, and BEST Buy Insignia. That should give me fairly accurate FR graphs devoid of room anomalies. Then I will be able to compare in room with outdoor measurements and see what is induced. Of course any data I come up with will appear here in some form.

Normally I seriously listen to music in 2 channel with sub. Movies use all 7 speakers. For movies the soundstage is wonderful and moves from left to center to right very well. There appears to be no lobing with the WMTW that I noticed with my previous MTM center. I do have a Seas tweeter to press in to service when DM publishes the WMTW with Seas and I will try it.

Chuck


Hi Chuck,

I must admit that I hadn't even considered using the center for 5 channel music playback when I've commented in the past. My thoughts were for using the center for home theater. I'm not at all surprised that you can hear a difference on music. The RS28 is a very nice tweeter but not as extended as the H1212. I thought the center would integrate very nicely for home theater, however.

Brian Walters drove down last Saturday and brought his RS 3-ways with him for a listening session. Beautiful cabinets, BTW. I wish I had the carpentry skills you guys do. :( Mine are good enough to get by but lots of room for improvement. Anyway, we listened to Modula M/T's, Natalie P's, Brian's and my RS 3-ways, my JH3 Reference 3-ways and last but not least, my Omegarrays.

The "big three" budget ultra low distortion tweeters were all represented along with those "terrible high distortion" ribbons I love. :T There were obvious sound differences between the RS28's, 27TDFC and the 27TBFC/G tweeters. Ya, I liked the ribbons best. :D

Glad you didn't get blown away with the hurricanes.

Jim

[chasw98]

What are "Omegarrays"?
So did Brian's WWMT's sound any different than your WWMT's?
How do they compare to your JH3's?
Hey, from the pictures I've seen your cabinetry skills are nothing to laugh about!

It will be interesting living with the CC RS28 and when Dennis gets the H1212 XO for the CC done, I will build up that XO and install it. I should notice a difference after having lived with the RS for a while.

Nope, the hurricane was a bust. We were at work early this morning and when we got home took down the shutters and put the house back to normal. But it was a good test run.

[Jim Holtz]

What are "Omegarrays"?
So did Brian's WWMT's sound any different than your WWMT's?
How do they compare to your JH3's?
Hey, from the pictures I've seen your cabinetry skills are nothing to laugh about!

It will be interesting living with the CC RS28 and when Dennis gets the H1212 XO for the CC done, I will build up that XO and install it. I should notice a difference after having lived with the RS for a while.

Nope, the hurricane was a bust. We were at work early this morning and when we got home took down the shutters and put the house back to normal. But it was a good test run.


Hi Chuck,

As expected, Brian's RS 3-ways were slightly more rolled off on top than my pair. The differences were slight but noticeable when listening to the speakers back to back. Given our different tastes in music, our speakers are probably a perfect fit for each of us.

I commented about how good these sound and how inexpensive they were in comparison to the sound quality. I think the RS 3-ways are an incredible bargain and raise affordable DIY to another level. I think this years DIY events are going to be really interesting in regard to the sound quality of the entries in each category. I predict it will be the best ever this year. :T

Omegarrays are my reference speakers and are pictured in my avatar. I've attached a picture of my home theater room.

Boy, it's a tough call on the RS 3-ways vs. JH Reference 3-ways. The JH3 Reference image like crazy with the Hiquphon OWIII and the MDM-55 mid dome. Plus, they are extremely detailed in the mid range because of the mid dome. Bass is ultra clean and tight but not as extended as the RS 3-ways. The RS 3-ways are also more dynamic and have a touch more "weight" to the sound. I could live very happily with either speaker. The JH3 Reference cost a lot more to build so that makes the RS 3-ways a tremendous value for nearly identical sound quality. The JH3 Reference and RS 3-ways sound different but both designs sound great. Like I said, a really tough call to pick between the two. I've also attached a picture of the JH3 Reference.

Did I mention the JH3 Reference are for sale and the RS 3-ways will be after the Iowa DIY event October 28th. The Modula M/T's too. :D

Jim

[Brian Walter]

OK, I'll chime in. Jim and I had a great time listening to all the speakers. Jim is a great host by the way. I think I pretty much agree with Jim's assessment completely. I would have a tough time picking between the JH3's and the RS 3-ways, but if I had to, I'd probably go with the RS 3-ways, mostly because the additional bass is more important to me than the better midrange and imaging of the JH3's.

I really liked the sound of the Morel MDM55 dome mid, but it doesn't quite have the weight to it that the RS 150 has. If I was to use the Morel, I think I would want to cross it fairly high, use it more like a mid tweeter, rather than a midrange. I'm tempted to try something like an MTWW with a ribbon, MDM55, Dual RS 225's, or possibly using the Seas 22TBFC like Paul O'Neal used in his speakers.

It was interesting comparing my speakers to Jim's. We started listening to the Modula MT, then Natalie MTM, then RH3's, then my RS 3-ways and then Jim's RS 3-ways. When listening in that order, my speakers appeared to be slightly darker or just not quite as extended as the JH3's, but very close. Then we switched to Jim's RS 3-ways and right a way we noticed the difference, Jim's were noticeably brighter. I'm not sure either is correct, but they both sounded really nice. For comparison, I think the omegarrays were voiced somewhere in between the two, more like the JH3's. As Jim said, for the types of music we listen to, I think we each have the correct voicing.

Tweeter wise, I too liked those high distortion ribbons. Next it was a tie between the Seas 27TBFC and the Hiquphon. I probably put the RS 28 at the bottom of what I would call a pretty high pile. But it really depends on how your are using them, as to which is the best.

Brian Walter

[ssabripo]

Go here:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/Chuck%20CC/Full%20Size/DSCN3854.jpg

Nice job as always ol' man :B :T ..... this exciting, as we will do an A/B between the two XO's to see what the acoustical difference is.... ;x(


good Job Chuck....looks awesome! and to think just a couple of months ago you were sitting on some Ascends...LOL!

ps- Don't leave my DVD-A sampler lying around like that man....Dog may scratch it or something..hehehehee :D

pss- when are you gonna cut the CC's stand?? needs to be lowered :p:

[Jim Holtz]

OK, I'll chime in. Jim and I had a great time listening to all the speakers. Jim is a great host by the way. I think I pretty much agree with Jim's assessment completely. I would have a tough time picking between the JH3's and the RS 3-ways, but if I had to, I'd probably go with the RS 3-ways, mostly because the additional bass is more important to me than the better midrange and imaging of the JH3's.

I really liked the sound of the Morel MDM55 dome mid, but it doesn't quite have the weight to it that the RS 150 has. If I was to use the Morel, I think I would want to cross it fairly high, use it more like a mid tweeter, rather than a midrange. I'm tempted to try something like an MTWW with a ribbon, MDM55, Dual RS 225's, or possibly using the Seas 22TBFC like Paul O'Neal used in his speakers.

It was interesting comparing my speakers to Jim's. We started listening to the Modula MT, then Natalie MTM, then RH3's, then my RS 3-ways and then Jim's RS 3-ways. When listening in that order, my speakers appeared to be slightly darker or just not quite as extended as the JH3's, but very close. Then we switched to Jim's RS 3-ways and right a way we noticed the difference, Jim's were noticeably brighter. I'm not sure either is correct, but they both sounded really nice. For comparison, I think the omegarrays were voiced somewhere in between the two, more like the JH3's. As Jim said, for the types of music we listen to, I think we each have the correct voicing.

Tweeter wise, I too liked those high distortion ribbons. Next it was a tie between the Seas 27TBFC and the Hiquphon. I probably put the RS 28 at the bottom of what I would call a pretty high pile. But it really depends on how your are using them, as to which is the best.

Brian Walter


Hi Brian,

Thanks for the kind words. I enjoyed getting together and seeing you again.

Jim

[dynamowhum]

Got my LP and HP layed out and set up to solder. PE seems to have gotten my order mixed up and I am missing a cap, so there will be a delay on my mid XO. Don't want to lay it out untill I get all the parts. Using 3-8"X10" Lexan boards from Lowes for $3.00 each.
I am considering making my Center cabinet a few inches longer to have a seperate XO cavity in the back of the speaker. I figure it will be easier to access for mistakes and repairs. I have no doubt of my potential for error. :B :rofl: :M

Fred

[Dennis Murphy]

[Using 3-8"X10" Lexan boards from Lowes for $3.00 each.



Hi Not being the home-handy type, I'm not familiar with Lexan boards. What do they look like? How do you attach the components? (I'm always looking for a more professional way to do boards than my usual peg board and pull ties). Thanks!

[mmoeller]

Dennis,

You could try this.
http://max8888.orcon.net.nz/pcbs.htm

[ThomasW]

Hi Not being the home-handy type, I'm not familiar with Lexan boards. What do they look like? How do you attach the components? (I'm always looking for a more professional way to do boards than my usual peg board and pull ties). Thanks!It's looks like clear plastic. Very prone to scratching, needs special attention when machining (sawing and drilling.)

[dynamowhum]

Lexan is a clear plastic that is very resilent. I pretty sure it is a component in bullet proof glass where they layer it between layers of real glasss. It drills very easily, I used brad point bits. You can buy circular saw blades to cut it for the same price as regular blades.
It has a removeable film on both sides. I would recommend keeping the film on until your XO is completed. I laid my stuff out, drilled and mounted my parts. Then after I solder I will remove the film.
I bought some hangar bolts to use as an offset for my XO panels. They have wood screw threads on one end and a machine thread on the other. I plan on mounting them in my back cavity and placing the boards on them.

[dynamowhum]

Mmoeller that is very nice. I wish I had access to a laser printer and have that program at the same time. Have lasers at work but down loading a program would be a no no. Back in my junior hi days I took an electronics course and we silk screened our boards. Every thing else in your process is exactly the same. Thanks for sharing

[mmoeller]

dyna,

The cool thing really is that if you look in the back of a PCB type magazine you can get boards made for cheap. Just draw it up in PADS or AutoCad or something. The trick is to get the files converted into the proper format. Gerber files, I believe.

I might be able to dig up some deals if you need a hand. I have seen $10 boards 2 sided, 5 pcs min. Sometimes better. The circuits here should be fairly simple to layout.

The models for the inductors and caps in that Eagle tool are kind of cryptic. Althought I'm not too familiar with these types of components. Making your own component models wouldn't be too difficult.

[hohe2112]

Back in my junior hi days I took an electronics course and we silk screened our boards.

Actually, one really cool thing not mentioned in that link is that you can use the same iron-on process to do your own silkscreen, too. Just print the screen master on the same photo paper you use for the trace mask and iron it on to the top side of the board. Works like a charm. ;)

[chasw98]

I was able to buy approx. 20 pieces 9" X 12" of FR4 unclad pcboard for around $20.00 on that auction place. A 1/32" drill bit works well for component leads and a 1/4" hole for wire ties. Once you know its working a little hot glue to hold the heavier components in place (and keep them from rattling) works well.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/DSCN3771.jpg

[dynamowhum]

Moeller, I just might do that for the WWMTs. What would the turnaround time be for these?

[dynamowhum]

Chuck those are nice as well. I didn't want to wait so I got the lexan. Tried out the peg board but just didn't like it. Until I take the film off my plastic I will just be using tie wraps.

[mmoeller]

I'm not possitive on the turn around time. Prolly a week or two at the most. Even for the complicated stuff I do at work. I might get impatient too :)

[mmoeller]

I was able to buy approx. 20 pieces 9" X 12" of FR4 unclad pcboard for around $20.00 on that auction place. A 1/32" drill bit works well for component leads and a 1/4" hole for wire ties. Once you know its working a little hot glue to hold the heavier components in place (and keep them from rattling) works well.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/DSCN3771.jpg

Those look very nice. Clean!

[Fryguy]

I was able to buy approx. 20 pieces 9" X 12" of FR4 unclad pcboard for around $20.00 on that auction place. A 1/32" drill bit works well for component leads and a 1/4" hole for wire ties. Once you know its working a little hot glue to hold the heavier components in place (and keep them from rattling) works well.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/chasw98/RS3ways/DSCN3771.jpg

Where did you get the terminal strip from? I've been looking on pe and madisound but I can't find anything like it. A link to speed me up would be helpful

[M.Roberts8]

Has anyone used the WMTW center with the Nat P's or Modula MTM's? I am wondering how they match up. I am planning on building the Nat P's first since the XO is cheaper. I figure I can upgrade to the modula ( rs28 ) XO later when funds allow. The Modula CC is kinda pricey and Jon made the comment in that thread that a WMTW is the better way to go for a CC.

[derekbannatyne]

Where did you get the terminal strip from? I've been looking on pe and madisound but I can't find anything like it. A link to speed me up would be helpful

Those are the buyout terminal strips from Parts Express, they're $.98 each. They seem to be out of them, but you can get terminal strips from Radio Shack.

[jonathanb3478]

Actual assembly has begun on my box style enclosure!

:D

Got clamps?

http://jonathanb3478.tripod.com/images/speaker/construction/gotclamps.jpg

[dynamowhum]

Man you are at it awful early this morning. LOL. That old saying you can never have enough clamps really rings true when you are in the middle of a project. Looking good.

[jonathanb3478]

Man you are at it awful early this morning. LOL.

I have been at this since 3PM Sat (when I woke up). Had to router some stuff in preparation for assembly. I will be stopping by noon. Either voluntarily, or by passing out on the couch waiting for the latest assembly to dry. :Z


That old saying you can never have enough clamps really rings true when you are in the middle of a project.

I am sure glad I listened to people on that one. ;x(

I am amazed how fast this thing eats through my clamp stash. :E


Looking good.

Thanks! :T

Hopefully things continue to in the future.

EDIT: Per Thomas' suggestion:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=282947

[ThomasW]

Jonathan,

Why don't you start a separate thread in the regular DIY section detailing your build? That way we can put a link to it at the beginning of this thread instead of having your info buried 30+ pages into the thread....

[Fryguy]

modified buylist, let me know what you guys think of this updated buylist.

http://fryguy.nevercontent.com/DaytonProject

Hopefully if this buylist is acceptable it pops to the first post in the thread as the full reference for building Seas TMWWs ;)

[Dennis Murphy]

Hi My only suggestion is to lose the Madisound Eagle resistors. I really hate those things. For the same price, you can get Dayton noninductives that have the values printed on them, and have leads that are very easy to twist and much sturdier than those blankity-blank Eagle leads that break at the slightest provocation. I have a whole graveyard full of busted Eagles. At DIYDC2004 we did a blind comparison between the Daytons and Mills, and there was no difference. Not one single person claimed to hear the slightest change when we switched from one to the other. (The Eagles probably would have done as well, assuming the leads lasted through the test.) Now I know--you guys have used lots of Eagles with no problems. But you haven't used as many as I have.

[jonathanb3478]

modified buylist, let me know what you guys think of this updated buylist.

http://fryguy.nevercontent.com/DaytonProject

Hopefully if this buylist is acceptable it pops to the first post in the thread as the full reference for building Seas TMWWs ;)

My buy list was just about identical to yours. Obviously, I have switched to the Dayton non-inductive resistors, due to Dennis' above advice.

The only differences are in a couple inductor selections. The first one that is different is my selection for a 1.0MH inductor. I see the one you selected a Solen 14ga that is $18 ea, with a DCR of .21. The one I selected is the Madisound SledgeHammer steel laminate which is $8.65 ea with a DCR of .1.

The other difference is that I selected a Madisound Sidewinder 16ga .33MH (.18 DCR & $5.10 ea), vs your Jantzen 15ga (.16 DCR & $7.12 ea).

Oh, and I replaced a pair of 4ohm resistors with a quartet of 8ohm due to a remotely possible power handling issue with a single 10 watt resistor at R2021, which was identified a while back. I will use a pair of 8ohm in parallel for each R2021 component, to double heat dissipation to 20 watts.

I am happy with my selections, unless anyone wants to point out a glaring issue with them.

EDIT: Since 4 or more RS225 drivers brings the price down to $40.80, I would note that price in your price list. Just a thought.

[Fryguy]

The resistor suggestion is great, I'll switch those over.

I'll also switch the .33 to a sidewinder. I couldn't find the DCR on madisound's page, and the Sidewinder from what you quoted is closer to the required resistance for that part of the circuit.

My only question is your choice of the 1.0 steel laminate. I was under the impression that air core was significantly better, and the only reason we are using the 3.0 steel laminate is because the resistance is way off otherwise?

It seems to me like having an air core would be superior than having a slightly lower resistance in a case where we would prefer 0 resistance (there is a real resistor inline).

Along the same lines of thinking, if you use the steel laminate for the 1.0, why not the 1.2 as well, which is in a similar situation?

[jonathanb3478]

Along the same lines of thinking, if you use the steel laminate for the 1.0, why not the 1.2 as well, which is in a similar situation?

Because only a 1.25 is available in the SH line from Madisound according to the catalog .pdf I have for the Sidewinder/SH line. That is also where I get the DCR values from.


It seems to me like having an air core would be superior than having a slightly lower resistance in a case where we would prefer 0 resistance (there is a real resistor in line).

That seems exactly the reason to use the .1 vs a .21, to me. You are adding less than half as much to the in line resistor this way. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

[Fryguy]

It seems like air versus steel is more important than less resistance.

[derekbannatyne]

The resistor suggestion is great, I'll switch those over.

I'll also switch the .33 to a sidewinder. I couldn't find the DCR on madisound's page, and the Sidewinder from what you quoted is closer to the required resistance for that part of the circuit.

My only question is your choice of the 1.0 steel laminate. I was under the impression that air core was significantly better, and the only reason we are using the 3.0 steel laminate is because the resistance is way off otherwise?

It seems to me like having an air core would be superior than having a slightly lower resistance in a case where we would prefer 0 resistance (there is a real resistor inline).

Along the same lines of thinking, if you use the steel laminate for the 1.0, why not the 1.2 as well, which is in a similar situation?

Here's a link to all the DCR values for the Madisound Sidewinder and Sledgehammer inductors:

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/sh_sl_sw_coils.pdf#search=%22madisound%20sledgehammer%20inductors%22

[Jim Holtz]

I updated both the standard and economy BOM's this morning with the new prices. The increase in inductor prices has had an impact on the cost so there's not much difference between the two now. I've also, per the suggestion Dennis made, switched both BOM's to Dayton resistors in an effort to hold down costs. The BOM's also now reflect the two 8.0 resistors to replace the 4.0 in the RS150 crossover for increased power handling.

I would suggest that air core inductors be used except in the very large value RS225 positions. Steel laminate works very well there but I'd suggest air core only for the mids or tweeter crossovers. My opinion only.

Also, electrolytic? Just say no.... :E

Jim

[jonathanb3478]

I updated both the standard and economy BOM's this morning with the new prices.

The only point I will make is that the Dayton resistors go to $.98 each when you get four or more of them. That puts the 10ohm and 8ohm at $.98/ea. Not a biggie, but true none the less. :T

[Fryguy]

I updated both the standard and economy BOM's this morning with the new prices. The increase in inductor prices has had an impact on the cost so there's not much difference between the two now. I've also, per the suggestion Dennis made, switched both BOM's to Dayton resistors in an effort to hold down costs. The BOM's also now reflect the two 8.0 resistors to replace the 4.0 in the RS150 crossover for increased power handling.

I would suggest that air core inductors be used except in the very large value RS225 positions. Steel laminate works very well there but I'd suggest air core only for the mids or tweeter crossovers. My opinion only.

Also, electrolytic? Just say no.... :E

Jim

Jim, why use Jantz 15ga on the 1.2 and 1.0? These are 2 inductors that we want the lowest resistance possible. This is better obtained with perfect lays. It costs a little bit more, but it seems like it's worth it:

1.2:
Jantz15 - .33ohm
PerfectLay - .24ohm
Price diff- $1.38 per speaker

1.0:
Jantz15 - .3ohm
PerfectLay - .21ohm
Price diff (PL from madisound) - $5.44 per speaker

the .4 I can see going with either jantz or the perfect lay, the specs and price are almost identical. I'd probably go with the perfect lay just to match the others if I went with perfect lays for the 1.2 and 1.0.

Your thoughts on this? I agree with everything else except the 1.2 and 1.0 inductor choices.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim, why use Jantz 15ga on the 1.2 and 1.0? These are 2 inductors that we want the lowest resistance possible. This is better obtained with perfect lays. It costs a little bit more, but it seems like it's worth it:

1.2:
Jantz15 - .33ohm
PerfectLay - .24ohm
Price diff- $1.38 per speaker

1.0:
Jantz15 - .3ohm
PerfectLay - .21ohm
Price diff (PL from madisound) - $5.44 per speaker

the .4 I can see going with either jantz or the perfect lay, the specs and price are almost identical. I'd probably go with the perfect lay just to match the others if I went with perfect lays for the 1.2 and 1.0.

Your thoughts on this? I agree with everything else except the 1.2 and 1.0 inductor choices.


Ha! I hadn't checked Perfect Lay since I've found them usually to be very expensive. The Jantzen were the middle ground compromise and often had the DCR I was looking for. The inductors you indicated do not have a DCR rated and an actual resistor in line so, yes, I would go for the Perfect Lay in each instance. When I get time, I'll revise the BOM to reflect the Perfect Lay inductors. Good catch!

Hey Johnathon! Good catch on the resistors too! I'd over looked the quantity discount.

Gees! A guy can't slide an honest mistake by this crowd. :rofl:

Jim

[Fryguy]

I've updated my build-list:

http://fryguy.nevercontent.com/DaytonProject

sticking to my inductors, changed the .33 to sidewinder, and changed resistors.