Amps to create "revelation" on 802D / 800D

[Indytown]

Jerry,

I have extensively compared the 803D and 802D for stereo... I really wanted to like the 803D (I had the money ready)... But once I heard the 802D I couldn't consider the 803D... IMO the 803D, while very good, is a league below the calibre of the 802D.

The midrange of the 803D still has a moderate level of that boxy / closed midrange that so many speakers have (from their boxes apparently). The 802D has an unbelievable midrange - so pure it just floats in the air... And the bass of the 802D is tighter and better controlled...

Lastly the sound stage - the 802D was able to fill the room with 3D sound - a perfect stereo image even standing literally between the speakers. It was like the room had a living sound field in it with invisible instruments and singers.... Again the 803D just didn't have this extra dimension in sound stage - possible due to the more coloured midrange...

Oh - and re the diamond tweeter B&W have generally only had issues when they are either poorly removed from the crate (someone using the tweeter as a handle) or someone takes the cover off the tweeter (held on by magnets) to see the tweeter and knocks it with the cover (the magnets are quite strong).... Besides - the tweeter is covered against faults by a 5 year international warrantee... Don't let this put you off... They are magnificent speakers – which a number of reviewers rate as up there in the top 5 or 6 in the world right now... Driven with the right equipment they are truly a revelation...

Geoff

Geoff and others,

Can we come up with 5 to 10 amps that would drive 802D and 800D's to that "revelation". Where we can open them up at a high volume and no fatigue; and at low listening levels very detailed and good bass.

Indy

[Aussie Geoff]

Indy,

I have split this out into its own thread as the question is a good one (while off topic from the main thread). :)

My suggestions to get the thread going:

Classe MA-400 Monoblocks
Musical Fidelity KW500 (I have heard) or the KW750 and 1000 (I have not heard)
Bel Canto Evo 4 bridged
NuForce Ref 9
Naim NAP 500

Regards

Geoff

[Blazar]

Consider also the PS-Audio GCC-250 amp with gain control. The should potentially provide even clearer amplification than the nuforce or the bel canto and the amount of power produced should feel limitless.

[jericho]

Don't forget McIntosh Mc-501!!A very fine amp in combination with the 802D or 800D

[Indytown]

Thanks guys for the recommendations.

[SRT-10 Viper]

Also the older Classe CAM/350s. I have these driving my 800Ds. You can get a good price for these used on Audiogon or EBAY. In fact, there are some for sale on both now.

[caleb]

Nothing wrong with Bryston 7B SST Monoblocks in my opinion - and there's that 20 year guarantee as well.

[SRX04]

Nu Force Ref 9's.

Completely upgradable with future products at ~25% of new units MSRP.

They sound amazing while not breaking the bank and producing a second heat source. Not to mention space concerns.

Welcome to the new revolution!!!

[RobP]

How about a pair of VTL 750 Monoblock Tube amplifiers?

[Lewing]

Has anyone heard Plinius? I demoed Plinius SA102 once with an unknown pair of speaker and it sounded incredible, sweet highs and wonderful bass. If i own a pair of 802D i definitely will want to try some Plinius amps. The only set back about getting these amp is availability.

[tboooe]

what about the Parasound jc1 monoblocks? they are phenomenal!

[johan]

Krell Fpb-series are great. I am using Fpb 300cx with my N802's and I am very happy with that. New Classe is also very good. Haven't heard any other Hi-end amp with B&W.

[Indytown]

Next week I will be auditioning the MAC 501's with the 800D's.

I tried the Plinius SA102 with the 800D. Unbelievable detail (bright), good bass, sounded a bit too electrical to me. Cymbals were too tizzy, fake, etc.

Byrston 7b sst, full sounding, very good bass, less detail than the Plinus.

A combo piece of the Bryston and Plinius would be ideal with the 800D.

Correct me if I wrong those who have tried them, but my understanding with the MAC 501's is you can bi-wire each speaker off each mono block using different taps.

So, one could hook the the Bass Drivers to the 4 ohm taps since the 800d Bass Drivers really play in the 3 to 4 ohm range.

And hook the midrange/treble to either the 2 ohm tap which would give you 250 watts since the I believe the upper end would be a nominal 8 ohms and being hooked up to the 2 ohm tap the amp would see 1/2 the 500 watt load?

Or would it be better to hook the treble area to the 8 ohm tap?

I haven't heard the 800D with the CAM 400 yet. I have been told that the CAM 400 uses alot of the circuitry that the Classe Omnicrons use, which have been out for a few year now.

[Indytown]

what about the Parasound jc1 monoblocks? they are phenomenal!


I tried the JC1's with the 800D's. Very good top end air, very good mid range, Bass a little sloppy, not tight, leading edges of the notes not there.

Good looking piece, but it ran hot and wasted alot of power sitting idle.

Maybe I had one not fully run in? not sure, I think it was run in for several hundred hours.

You could definetly tell the differnce in sound quality when you switched it to class A operation for the first 25 watts as opposed to 10 watts.

[Indytown]

How about a pair of VTL 750 Monoblock Tube amplifiers?

I would try a pair. I thought BW 800/802D run better on solid state?

[Gump]

Curious if anyone has heard any details about the performance of the new BelCanto S300 digital amps. My local dealer ordered one and said he will let me take it home for a demo when it comes in probably in the next week or two.

They're 2ch amps/150wpc, weight-9lbs, price:1,600 USD/msrp

[Indytown]

Curious if anyone has heard any details about the performance of the new BelCanto S300 digital amps. My local dealer ordered one and said he will let me take it home for a demo when it comes in probably in the next week or two.

They're 2ch amps/150wpc, weight-9lbs, price:1,600 USD/msrp

I've been trying to find a dealer that has the new Bel Canto 500 watt mono's with the new ICE technology.

Has anyone listened to them yet?

[george_k]

I'm also interested in the new Bel Canto S300, can't seem to find a review though.

[gerardhn]

Aussie,

I'have heard Nuforce 9. Not spectacular. Blown away by the much more expensive ML 383 integrated. I would not buy that amp for 802D +. Maybe nice for its price but cannot follow the expression of the more expensive amps.

Gerard.

[Race Car Driver]

What is the weight of the Nuforce 9?
I dont recall, but for some reason i want to say I read it was something incredibly light?? Like 7 lbs or something..
Have no idea why im thinking that....

[DrJRapp]

Has anyone tried Aragon with 802s?

[Indytown]

I have been listening to 800D and the Mac 501 monos for three days now, on demo.

The 501's are very nice with the 800D's.

Clean, detailed, non-fatiguing, good natural bass response (not boomey, bloated, exaggerated), very linear- low to high volume, stay cool to the touch after hours of use.

Instruments are very well placed in the sound field. The singers voice is very dominate with the Mac in the center image but does not drown out the placement of the instruments. Cymbals, drum wacks, record room echo and reverb from the instruments are superior.

Look very nice with the traditional blue lighted watt meter sitting next to the 800's.

Has anyone compared the Mac 501's to the Classe CAM 400's?

Indy

[Aussie Geoff]

Has anyone compared the Mac 501's to the Classe CAM 400's?
Yes... I found the Classe 400's to offer a layer of extra subtle detail that was (not obviously) missing from the 501's... Once heard - switching back to the 501's they seemed a little coarse... That said - on their own the 501's are very impressive amps...

Geoff

[jericho]

You should try a Mcintosh 1201 amplifier on those 800D's, I've got a pair of them on my set and a 501 on the HTM1D.The sound is really impressive

[Indytown]

Yes... I found the Classe 400's to offer a layer of extra subtle detail that was (not obviously) missing from the 501's... Once heard - switching back to the 501's they seemed a little coarse... That said - on their own the 501's are very impressive amps...

Geoff

Thanks Aussie,

I agree. The extra detial, the way instruments, voices (female), cymbals (when you get that extra detail), natural bass, more or less pronounced center image from the lead singer, all are suble differences from amp to amp. Subtle as they may be, the combination of all the traits contribute to the overall sound of the amp paired with a specific speaker.

I was looking for a reasons not to like the MAC when I first hooked it up, can not find any at this point, very inpressed.

That said, I have noticed a big differnce between amps that run in pure class A bais say for the first 25 to 100 watts. They tend to have a more lively sound and engaging sound with good inter detail. The 501 sounds wonderful not being class A after 15 watts. It has sparkle.

The meter on the front actually gives a good indication of actually how much power one really needs to drive his/her speakers to normal listening and high levels. I'm amazed at how little power (that is quality power) is actually required to drive the 800's to loud levels. I never used more than 350 watts at high levels. Most of the time the amp was at 150 watts or lower depending on the musical peaks for slighly above normal listening.

Indy

[Indytown]

You nshould try a Mcintosh 1201 amplifier on those 800D's, I've got a pair of them on my set and a 501 on the HTM1D.The sound is really impressive

Jericho, it took a while to find a dealer that had 501's, 100 lbs. each !!! that would allow a home demo.

The 1201 are beasts and may be slightly out of my price range. But I'm intrigued on what more power would do for the Mac with the way it is engineered hooked up to the 800D's.

What other amps did you audition before the MAC's?

Indy.

[shadow]

Money does not appear to be an issue with you regarding amplification, but if it was, the Rotel 1090 is a wonderful amp and can easily drive these speakers for $2K with a very clean sound.

[jericho]

Indy,

I auditioned the mac's 501, the Classé CA-M400, the Krell FPB 700cx, the Bryston 7B-SST,the Parasound C1 and the Accuphase P-7000.

My second choice was Classé, my third choice would be Bryston.

[Indytown]

Indy,

I auditioned the mac's 501, the Classé CA-M400, the Krell FPB 700cx, the Bryston 7B-SST,the Parasound C1 and the Accuphase P-7000.

My second choice was Classé, my third choice would be Bryston.

Jericho, I have listened to the CAM 400 before (not at home). I auditioned the Bryston 7B sst, JC1, Jeff Rowland digital 250 watt, no Krell yet.

From what I remember the CAM 400 projected a wider and more forward sound field off the plane of the speaker compared to the Bryston and JC1.

I like the 501 but it does lack a little in the bass area.The build quality & looks are outstanding.

What does the 1201 do better than the 501 besides the 1000 watts for louder playing.?

Thanks for the info.

[Indytown]

Money does not appear to be an issue with you regarding amplification, but if it was, the Rotel 1090 is a wonderful amp and can easily drive these speakers for $2K with a very clean sound.

Shadow, why leave a stone unturned; I will probably go out and get one. I'm assuming its a stereo amp.

I will tell you one thing, bi-amping the 800d with no external cross over does make a big difference in sound quality and reproduction. I have a lower quality mutichannel amp right now which has seperate mono-blocks, heatsinks for each channel, etc. I use 4 channels to seperate the highs and lows. The sound is good, defined, detailed, very good bass response.

I do not drive the speakers hard, casual listening.

I think a quality amp or amps in the 350 to 500 watt range that double down into 4 ohms or close to it if bi-amped would be the ticket. Size of these units will be an issue in bi-amp configuration.

Indy

[jericho]

Indy,


When I compare the 501 to the 1201 on my 800D, I think there is a difference in bass.They are not only 1200 Watt but the punch you get on lower volume is different compared to the 501.If you only listen at lower levels you get a better punch on the 1201.The 501 must be pushed over 50 Watt before you get that slam in the bass speaker.But why not adding a sub?That would solve the problem immediately of the bass response

[Indytown]

Indy,


When I compare the 501 to the 1201 on my 800D, I think there is a difference in bass.They are not only 1200 Watt but the punch you get on lower volume is different compared to the 501.If you only listen at lower levels you get a better punch on the 1201.The 501 must be pushed over 50 Watt before you get that slam in the bass speaker.But why not adding a sub?That would solve the problem immediately of the bass response

My idea of a superior system is exactly that. At lower levels everything is still there in the sound field with very good bass response, you don't have to to play the music louder to get the speakers to open up. I will be adding a sub in the near future but right now I'm tweaking the system for straight 2 channel listening.

Thanks for the info, you have a superior system, B&W has done a wonderful job with the 800D's this time around.

[jericho]

Thanks for the compliment Indy.I soon send a few pictures but for the moment I'm occupied on re-styling the HT room

[DrJRapp]

The following was posted recently over at club Rotel by CSUZOR a member from France. I thought it may be relavent....

A recent review in France by a B&W manager and part-time recording engineer (Philippe Muller), during a multi-day classical and jazz music recording session in multi-channel, claims the 1077 changes a lot of preconceptions about amps, and is better than other ICEpower amps (where he had noticed high-frequency loss of clarity). Used in a passive bi-amp configuration (which he strongly recommends) on huge B&W 801 the result is simply optimal (he typically uses 5x 801, maybe he had 2 1077?), and truely high-fidelity (closest to the real thing, as opposed to audio-phile as we all know: I don't know the difference, but he is a little philosophical). He could push into clipping, but at insane volumes only. He will continue to use this amp as a professional.

[Indytown]

The following was posted recently over at club Rotel by CSUZOR a member from France. I thought it may be relavent....

A recent review in France by a B&W manager and part-time recording engineer (Philippe Muller), during a multi-day classical and jazz music recording session in multi-channel, claims the 1077 changes a lot of preconceptions about amps, and is better than other ICEpower amps (where he had noticed high-frequency loss of clarity). Used in a passive bi-amp configuration (which he strongly recommends) on huge B&W 801 the result is simply optimal (he typically uses 5x 801, maybe he had 2 1077?), and truely high-fidelity (closest to the real thing, as opposed to audio-phile as we all know: I don't know the difference, but he is a little philosophical). He could push into clipping, but at insane volumes only. He will continue to use this amp as a professional.


Jerry, very interesting, thank you. There may be something with the new Rotel mono-blocks coming out in the near future. If the clarity and non-fatiguing top end air is there in the treble area it could be a option.

One thing I have picked up on reading reviews of other ICE powered amps is they sound great, super damping stat's, very detailed, no distortion, etc.

But, they tend to sterilize the other components in the chain. So one may have a superior CD player and pre-amp, the ICE module or Nu Force amp make things sound the same no matter what is up stream?

Have you picked up on this?

Indy.

[DrJRapp]

But, they tend to sterilize the other components in the chain. So one may have a superior CD player and pre-amp, the ICE module or Nu Force amp make things sound the same no matter what is up stream?

Have you picked up on this?

Indy.

It's interesting that you mention that today because yesterday I started a 3 way listening analysis between a Rotel RCD 1072, Cambridge Audio Azur 640C and Shanling T100 in both tube and SS output. No, if anything the 1077 tends to be more critical because of the truth that it passes unaltered by distortion and nonlinearities. My purpose is to compare DACs so all the players run analog into my RSP 1098 in bypass mode to the 1077. Believe me, the 1077 does a more than credible job of passing along difficiencies AND strengths. While I'm not sure what prompted that comment (or question..if that's what it is). The 1077 is an amplifier, not a filter/processor. I does nothing to sterilize or for that matter, emphasize what it is fed.

[Karma]

HI All,

Most anything built by Audio Research (for tubes) or Krell or Mark Levenson for solid state. I prefer tubes but have Krell on my 805S's.

Karma

[Blazar]

There is no amp that will create a "revelation" with these speakers...

The revelation comes from room treatment.... of this I am absolutely certain with my experiences so far. The more bass traps, absorption, and diffusion modifications I make, the better the sound is getting.

[peter clarke]

am using kW500 with 800D's adding echobusters full treatment soon and auditioning kW750 in bi-amped mode soon

[Indytown]

I ultimately went all MAC with my 800D's.

Indy

[Joey_V]

Has anyone heard Plinius? I demoed Plinius SA102 once with an unknown pair of speaker and it sounded incredible, sweet highs and wonderful bass. If i own a pair of 802D i definitely will want to try some Plinius amps. The only set back about getting these amp is availability.

I will second that...

Also, there were some Boulder monoblocks that sounded very unreal with the 802D.

JOey

[See-Fu]

How do the Krell series amps compare to the CLasse when driving the 802's?

[See-Fu]

How come no one has mentioned the Mac 602's yet? On paper it produces an additional 100 watts.

[Nolan B]

I own a 1077 and it powers B&W FPMs. I have to admit I was surprised to see this amp pop up in this thread. I am not saying this becuase I am at all dissatisfied with the amp, to me it amazes me every time i turn it on.

My question is that it is being compared to amps 2 times its price. Is it reasonable to assume that due to its performance, size, lack of heat and looks that its it very under priced? Would the 1077 be worth it at 2Xs the price?

[chinets]

So DrJRapp,
Which player did you find better running it through your 1098 and 1077!! All are great choices, and I am very interested In your final conclusion between the 1072, CA Azure and the Shannling???????? The 1077 Is also a brillaiant Amp for its price!!! Good choice!

Awaiting your conclusion with anticipation my friend!!


Keep us posted please!!

Cheers!

[RNKC]

I truely love the sound from my Mark Levinson 432 (400w x 2). I've listened to Classe in the store but for my tastes I prefer the Levinson sound.

[dknightd]

There is no amp that will create a "revelation" with these speakers...

The revelation comes from room treatment.... of this I am absolutely certain with my experiences so far. The more bass traps, absorption, and diffusion modifications I make, the better the sound is getting.

I don't have these speakers in my house. Too much money for me.

But I want to echo Blazar's opinion. Room treatments make a HUGE difference. From a sound standpoint I'd say 1/3 speaker, 1/3 electronics, 1/3 room.

[Rolex]

I'm a little surprised there hasn't been much talk of Jeff Rowland with B&W. That combo sounded very good, I thought.

My friend had 802D's with KW500. Then went to Mac integrated 2275. Better in almost all regards, then went to mac separates. 402 amp and c2200 pre amp.

I'd take the amp and pre amp from mac over the kw500, which I like.

[peter clarke]

am using kW500 with 800D's adding echobusters full treatment soon and auditioning kW750 in bi-amped mode soon Dear soundgravy, How do the VTL's perform?????

[Jesse111]

Mac 501 is magnificent with the 800D. I'd imagine it's even better with the 802D.

[RobP]

Dear soundgravy, How do the VTL's perform?????

I have never actually heard the 800d's on VTL amps, but I did listen to the 802d's on VTL power and it sounded pretty good. Not as good as the Classe CAM400's IMO though.

[Angioguy]

Judging from these many responses, I think it's safe to say that many amps would do the job-- very well... why not find 5 or so that fit your budget and audition them? I listened to Jeff Rowland, Classe, Levinson, Krell and McIntosh with my 802D's and decided on the Mac.

[jack d]

What do you guys think about the Anthem P2? I didn't see anyone mention it so far.

[twitch54]

What do you guys think about the Anthem P2? I didn't see anyone mention it so far.

I think for good reason....... IMHO Anthem does just dandy on HT but when it comes to serious two channel listening there is better stuff out there, alot of which has been named in this thread. My vote for SS goes to Plinius and in the world of Tubes I must say after hearing these speakers recently at Overture Audio in De. being driven by the new ARC Ref amps.....Wow !!

[juiceman]

xxxx

[juiceman]

I've been trying to find a dealer that has the new Bel Canto 500 watt mono's with the new ICE technology.

Has anyone listened to them yet?


Indy,

I have been running the Bel Canto e.One Ref1000 monoblocks with my 802Ds for about a year now. I got the the Bel Cantos as soon as they came out. I have a Mark Levinson 380s pre-amp and 360S DAC as the primary sources.

Overall I have been extremely happy with them. They drive the 802's with ease and amazing clarity. The transient response is amazing. My only complaint is there is a touch of coolness in the treble and upper midrange. However like a lot of affects, this is very slight and depends on the source material.

The additional pluses is the small sizes of the monoblocks and their efficiency. As a PWM amp, they run super cool even at high output levels.

If I were to make a change, it would be to the much more expensive Levinson 436 monoblocks. Alot of that has to do with me being a lifelong fan of the Levinson sound.

Justin

[Kal Rubinson]

I have been running the Bel Canto e.One Ref1000 monoblocks with my 802Ds for about a year now.Me, too. Other amps as well.

Kal

[Indytown]

Indy,

I have been running the Bel Canto e.One Ref1000 monoblocks with my 802Ds for about a year now. I got the the Bel Cantos as soon as they came out. I have a Mark Levinson 380s pre-amp and 360S DAC as the primary sources.

Overall I have been extremely happy with them. They drive the 802's with ease and amazing clarity. The transient response is amazing. My only complaint is there is a touch of coolness in the treble and upper midrange. However like a lot of affects, this is very slight and depends on the source material.

The additional pluses is the small sizes of the monoblocks and their efficiency. As a PWM amp, they run super cool even at high output levels.

If I were to make a change, it would be to the much more expensive Levinson 436 monoblocks. Alot of that has to do with me being a lifelong fan of the Levinson sound.

Justin

Juiceman,

Thanks for the insight to the Bel's. I had a chance to listen to the Jeff Roland digital mono's, felt the same way a "a touch of coolness".

I went the route of Mac MC501 mono's. They run very cool and sound superb with BW800D.


Happy holiday's and New Year.

Indy

[Pieter Stolk]

Hi,

Has anybody heard the B&W 802D's with Pass Labs (f.e. X250.5) and/or 2x Bryston 7BSST's ?