Upgrading it it really worth it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  • starshaped
    Junior Member
    • Jul 2004
    • 19

    Upgrading it it really worth it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Just upgraded my system after 12 years. My old system was far from perfect but i learnt to except its limits. Most of my CD collection and half on my records sounded good, so i just got on and enjoyed the music. I had a pair of castle durham speakers from 1991, a musical fidelity B1 amp and a rotel 855 CD and michell syncro turntable for front end sources.
    I decided to up grade just recently. My rational being that perhaps some new speakers and and a new amp might improve the sound through out.

    So i got rid of the old castles and repalced them with the new smaller, slimmer latest version of the same model (durham 3) and also replaced my amp with the new raved £ 600 Rotel 1062 intergrated and also up graded to QED XT-350 speaker cable costing £ 15 per metre.

    The good news first. Many of the CD's that i have enjoyed sound better. Bigger sound stage, more air between the instruments, more
    detail.

    Alas i kinda thought that a better system would mean that some of the CD's and records that didnt sound so good might sound better.

    Well i have quite an electic taste from Norah Jones to Oasis. Old Norah sounds wonderful on it. Lovely timbre and texture. lovely sharp treble..heavenly.

    However i fancied a bit of Oasis tonight. My old system didnt do a bad job with it, but this new combo is embarrasingly bad.

    Played definatly maybe and then Whats the story morning glory and both so bad, very bad!!

    If you can imagine putting 10 blankets over your speakers and pulling a hat over your ears in addition, this is how it sounded.

    Compressed, muffled, muddy, shut in, soft,weightless, tizzy.. horrid!!!!

    Virtually unlistenable. The song whats the story morning glory sounds like Liam singing alone. there is some noise in the background prentending to music, but the track sound as though its had its legs cut off and all the frequencies sucked away just leaving a voice and backing by a flea.

    So there you go £ 1000 on new speakers and a new amp and thats what you get! nice.

    whats the point? Might as well buy a basic midi system like my mums everything seems to sound fine on that!

    And if you think i sound bitter i am!

    Oh and hi everyone this my first post!
  • aud19
    Twin Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2003
    • 16706

    #2
    Welcome

    Unfortunately the better your equipment, the worst bad recordings sound

    If you think about it, your better system allows you to hear every subtle nuance of your source. If the source is crappy it will only reproduce the "crap" all that much clearer.... but it will also reproduce good recordings to sound amazing...

    Double edged sword...

    Jason
    Jason

    Comment

    • starshaped
      Junior Member
      • Jul 2004
      • 19

      #3
      not kidding!

      And there was me blaming the speakers!

      I kinda thought that maybe the castles were too polite and that the B&W 601s might work better with rock music with the 1062 amp (see there was a rotel link in there somewhere!)

      Anybody else had any experience matching castle speakers with Rotel amps? The 1062 specifically? is the B&W a better match?

      Or have a just got to ge tused to the idea that my collection of music is either going to sound very very good or unlistenable!

      Comment

      • theMaximus
        Senior Member
        • Jul 2004
        • 179

        #4
        Ditch the new speakers

        I really don't think it's your Rotel integrated amp or the speaker wires that are causing the problem. If you can return the speakers that you just bought, do so. I suggest B&W DM 600 series or 704 if you can afford it. They seem to work very well with Rotel amps. My previous set up consisted of Rotel RSX-965 receiver and B&W 603 and they sounded very good. My recently upgraded system consists of Rotel RSX-1056 receiver working as preamp for RB-1070 stereo amp and B&W 704 and they sound wonderful together.
        Victory Shall Be Mine!!! :heh:

        Comment

        • Aussie Geoff
          Super Senior Member
          • Oct 2003
          • 1914

          #5
          Try those B&Ws or Monitor Audio

          Starshaped,

          I'd definitely trade in the Castle's NOW. Try those B&W's - try some of the 600 or CM series to suit your pocket in your own home home. For example the B&W 603 S3 is a serious speaker for rocking or the 604 is you want bass to party too - both of these will also do a fine job of your high end recordings. If your in the UK the Monitor Audio Gold and some of the higher end Mission speakers are also very good matches. IMO both of these will do a better job of smoothing over bad recordings and making things enjoyable than the Castles which can be (IMO) too analytical and not musical enough - emphasizing faults more than strengths. Really you want to be able to enjoy 90%+ of your recordings or why have a system.

          Geoff

          Comment

          • Andrew Pratt
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 16507

            #6
            You are learning what many of us have discoverd before...that the better our equipment gets the worse most music sounds...its just that our systems are much better now at resolving detail and when its not there its painfully obvious. You have to remember that most mass produced music is meant to be played back over the radio or though cheap boom box's etc so attention to detail in the mastering process just isn't worth it to them. So where does that leave us? Well you just have to move off the well traveled road of mass media and look for the numerous artists that do care about their material being represented properly and for record lables that do their best to master exceptional material...like Chesky and AIX for example. That said there are still some very nicely recorded CD's from mainstream bands with Dire Straits coming to mind as one of my favorites...though theres examples from every genre of music (Jesse Cook and Dixie chicks are two others)

            Comment

            • starshaped
              Junior Member
              • Jul 2004
              • 19

              #7
              601's

              Funny you should say that!

              I have just bought some 601's (s3) off ebay. Waiting for them to be delivered.

              I have nothing to lose as i can re-list then obviously if they do not make a good match.

              How long should i give them to break in before i evaluate them?

              I heard then can be bright, but they do match well with Rotel apparently?

              Comment

              • Andrew Pratt
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2000
                • 16507

                #8
                If they're used speakers you won't need to break them in...otherwise run some white noise though them for a day or two and just sit back and enjoy them as the mature from there.

                Comment

                • starshaped
                  Junior Member
                  • Jul 2004
                  • 19

                  #9
                  I have seen the light!

                  Well it think you might have saved me a lot of time trying to find that magic elixar! that hi-fi panacea!

                  Your comments make sense and probably explains my stilted logic.

                  Everything i play on my mums midi system sounds fine but never breathtaking.

                  I suppose thats the trade off.

                  Still i suppose i could have a second system to play my oasis on

                  ps on a more positive note..i bought Simon and Garfunkel live in New York city 1967 The recording is all acoustic and stripped down. And the sound on my system is breathtaking.

                  This is where my system is magic. The treble sounds so etched, it captures every nuance in their voices and every pluck of his acoustic guitar. the recording is cystal clear. it blew me away!!! get it if you like S & G :lol:

                  Comment

                  • Andrew Pratt
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 16507

                    #10
                    I'll have to look for the disc :T

                    Comment

                    • Burke Strickland
                      Moderator
                      • Sep 2001
                      • 3161

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Andrew Pratt
                      You are learning what many of us have discovered before...that the better our equipment gets the worse most music sounds...its just that our systems are much better now at resolving detail and when its not there its painfully obvious.
                      I'm not so sure I entirely agree with that. An investment in better equipment may makes us more conscious of what is going on in the music reproduction process, but, as it is more revealing, it should expose more good things than bad. I'm talking about what's in the music, not what we may find out about limitations in other "weak link" components.

                      Basically, my overall enjoyment and satisfaction level with my LP and CD collection has INCREASED rather than decreased as I have moved up the hifi "food chain" over the years upgrading my equipment.

                      I have auditioned and rejected components that rendered "too much" detail, which made some recordings un-listenable. One pre/pro I tried at home a few years ago "flattened out" the detail, exposing everything at the same level of intensity in an orchestral passage, for instance, instead of allowing some instruments to fold into the background and others to maintain prominence in the foreground. In one vocal selection, a bass voice that usually underscores a theme that a soprano is highlighting got equal emphasis and thus there was more apparent "detail" -- but that pre/pro's presentation was just wrong. It didn't stay in my system for long (a week).

                      As opposed to a system that is overly analytical in providing "detail" or skewed to sound "musical" (for example, "warm", as in "distorted" by muffling the highs and bloating the mid-bass, even if the distortion is pleasant on some material) it seems to me that a truly neutral, accurate music system actually makes most music sound pretty good and exceptionally well recorded music sound even better.

                      As I've improved the quality of my playback system, I have rediscovered the joys of older recordings while continuing to add new favorites. Not all of them are from Telarc or Reference Recordings either. For older recordings of good music that are truly awful technically due to limitations in the recording technology available at the time of the performance (as opposed to just bad engineering), if the performance itself is good enough to be worthy of our attention, after a very brief period, if we are concentrating on the music and not fretting about its reproduction, our brains will "mask out" the hiss or other noise from our awareness.

                      Originally posted by Andrew Pratt
                      You have to remember that most mass produced music is meant to be played back over the radio or though cheap boom box's etc so attention to detail in the mastering process just isn't worth it to them. So where does that leave us?
                      That leaves us listening to something at a higher caliber than rap or Britney Spears. :>) A lot of mass market music is disposable crap, aimed at the lowest common denominator audience and engineered for the worst playback facilities. But why bother with that, since, fortunately, a lot of studio-recorded rock and country music still has a lot of enjoyable musical detail that gets hidden/overwhelmed by a boom box or car radio, but comes to life on a really good home system.

                      Of course, I'll cheerfully admit that most of my music listening is to classical and jazz, which typically have higher technical standards anyway. But I've been pleasantly surprised by some of the "oldie but goodie" compilations of rock hits (and even disco!!!!) that sound pretty darned good on a properly set up and calibrated high quality music playback system, of which I have a modest example in my home.

                      Burke

                      What you DON'T say may be held against you...

                      Comment

                      • theMaximus
                        Senior Member
                        • Jul 2004
                        • 179

                        #12
                        I second Burke

                        I agree with Burke Strickland's posting. A good system should bring out more good than bad out of any recordings that are adequately mastered. You shouldn't have to be forced to listen to only the reference grade recordings because your hi-fi system brings out bad details that you couldn't hear with inferior system. In your case, my guess is that your speakers aren't well suited to the type of music you listen to. Some speakers are designed primarily for certain type of music. For example, Klipsch is known for being very good for listening to Jazz. This is not to say that you shouldn't listen to music other than Jazz with Klipsch, but it just means that Klipsch sounds especially good when listening to Jazz.

                        I'm a big fan of B&W speakers since they areknown for being a very good "all rounder" and I listen to wide variety of music. Since you have purchased B&W DM 601 and wating for them to arrive, I can share my experience with you. I'm using DM 601 S3 as my rear surrounds, and I've tried them as my main speakers out of curiosity and they sounded wonderful with my Rotel 1056. Only weakness of 601 is that it won't produce any deep base, but they aren't designed for that to begin with. A nice subwoofer would really complement your new 601 speakers nicely. B&W ASW 600 ($450~$500) is a good match for 601, but you don't have to stick with the same brand for your subwoofer if you can find a good match with another brand.
                        Victory Shall Be Mine!!! :heh:

                        Comment

                        • starshaped
                          Junior Member
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 19

                          #13
                          601's

                          Well it should be interesting to hear the 601's.

                          Its roughly the same size as my castle durham's, hence i am not expecting masses of bass. I just want a balanced sound.

                          Some interesting comments from you guys. I just wish i had a dealer who would let me take three sets of speakers, amps, CD players and cables for a month, it might be easier then! As you know its no good listening to it in the shop as the acoustics are different, in fact i never heard a system sound good in a shop, they always sounds too clinical to me.

                          So i will see how i get on with the B&W 601's S3

                          Comment

                          • David Meek
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 8938

                            #14
                            In general, I'll agree that a better system will make your existing music collection sound better by revealing more of the texture, the nuances, soundstage and imaging, etc. However, there ARE some recordings that when played on a better system sound substantially worse due to mastering/pressing foul-ups. I've run into a few of those myself.

                            I guess the best way to look at it is that we are rewarded for our upgrade efforts 97% of the time, and hey, I can live happily with that.

                            Best of luck with your 601's! :T

                            P.S. If you find that mythical dealer, let me know, okay? :B
                            .

                            David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                            Comment

                            • Bill Blank
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2002
                              • 126

                              #15
                              starshaped,

                              I'm a HUGE fan of Oasis. Having said that the majority of their catalog sounds like sh&te on a good system. Noel's big on the "Wall Of Sound" idea and it really mucks up their many of their recordings. I think you'll find their more basic tracks sound much better on your system. They're by far not the only band who's material sounds this way on a good system either.

                              Within the past few months I've made what in my mind has been an "Upgrade" to my system, the last step of that actually being completed today. Originally I had a pair of Vienna Acoustics Mozarts up front with a Rotel combo (RSP-1066 Pre/Pro, RMB-1075 Power Amp) and a Rega Planet 2000 CD Player. I found myself searching out the "better sounding" recordings, Norah Jones being one of them actually. These recordings sounded fantastic...they just don't get many repeat spins. The CDs I love and want to listent to were getting less and less time as well and I found myself primarily using my new multi-channel system/dedicated room for movies and video games. :M

                              A few months ago I decided to take a sideways step...in the right direction. The Viennas were a tad to smooth/laidback/warm (choose your adjective) sounding to convey the raw emotion needed for rock music. I ditched all of my Vienna Acoustics for a full Paradigm Reference Studio Series setup. These speakers know how to rock and are refined enough to let good recordings shine. It was a HUGE step in the right direction though some thought I was mad and that I'd be downgrading my speaker system. Not the case my friend...I'm a true believer in system synergy.

                              Today I've attempted to take my system yet another step further in the right direction. I picked up an Arcam CD73 to replace my Rega CD player. A downgrade? Don't think it will be. I've got it on loan for thirty days from the wonderful guys at Red Trumpet. It's been "breaking in" for about the last 6 hours and in 15 minutes I'll sit down with a pint of Victory Grand Cru and start spinning some serious tunes.

                              My point is, do your best to find kit that sounds good together and with the music you love. You could take the "best" product according to reviews in each price range and end up with a system that sounds terrible. Experimentation takes patience but is worth it in the end.

                              Bill

                              P.S. Oasis will definitely maybe get some spins tonight!

                              Comment

                              • Elmac
                                Member
                                • Apr 2004
                                • 88

                                #16
                                Hey Starshaper any new on 602's yet,
                                How do they sound
                                Elmac
                                All HT Signals Processed by D2 for Ultimate Experience

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15261

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by aud19
                                  Welcome

                                  Unfortunately the better your equipment, the worst bad recordings sound

                                  If you think about it, your better system allows you to hear every subtle nuance of your source. If the source is crappy it will only reproduce the "crap" all that much clearer.... but it will also reproduce good recordings to sound amazing...

                                  Double edged sword...

                                  Jason
                                  Well, not necessarily so....

                                  The better your overall system get, the more revealing it is of any problem or issues upstream of it- and some folks I know in the biz of developing gear take advantage of that to use equipment for evaulation which can be quite senstive to what comes before.

                                  But there's a lesson to be learned from that, I think.

                                  Get the best source gear you can afford. Once the signal is "damaged" at the
                                  source, they're no putting the genie in the bottle elsewhere. And selecting gear that more "forgiving" just to hide what comes before generally only results in a trend toward softness at best, and mush at worst.

                                  Best $1G I have ever spent on Audio gear is my Benchmark DAC1. I could enjoy musically happily if all I had was it and my Sony MDR-F1's to plug into it (relatively rare open air mag frame headphones from Sony; cost about $250-300.



                                  If you've got a great system and a so-so CD player, and most of your music is on CD's, you're cheating yourself.

                                  The DAC1 or similar products won't truly make the bass go deeper or extend the dynamic range of your older, less well done recordings (though it often seems like it does, and certainly does so with more definition), but it does seem to get rid of a lot of the colorations I associate with CD sound. Thickened, coarsened midrange, whited out presense region, edgy highs, lack of definition in bottom end, all seem to be related to jitter issues in playback. It won't turn your CD collection into vinyl, but it may help you enjoy your guilty pleasures a bit more, even stuff like "Mountain On Top" (yeah, the "Mississippi Queen" guys), or Avril Lavigne. Imagine Avril on a cheap CD player and a mass market receiver through Focal tweeters.... eeeuuuuwwwww! :E :W

                                  ~Jon :B
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                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

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