What determines sound character ?

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  • sharnyo
    Junior Member
    • Jun 2004
    • 17

    What determines sound character ?

    I would like to discuss about the role of equipment in producing a particular sound character. We have heard certain equipment produces different tonal balance, brightness, soundstage, clarity, and other adjectives to describe it.

    We know that each part plays a role ie. media, source, pre-amp, amp, speakers, cables. But which part or parts that play a dominant role in determining the sound character ? Why and how ?

    For those that have audition a lot of systems and have discerning ears, your opinions would be appreciated.
  • David Meek
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 8938

    #2
    Not to be simplistic here, but the answer is "everything". Each piece of the equipment chain, source, pre/pro, amp, cables, speakers (you can break it into smaller pieces like the various drivers and cross-over in the speakers, for example) has an effect on the sound coming out of the speakers. I'm at work right now, so I can't get into something this complex at the moment - more later. . . .

    Everyone has an opinion on what is the most influential, and hopefully we'll get some good debate on that.
    .

    David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15261

      #3
      As David says, this is a very complex topic.

      I suppose you can make some simple priorities...

      1. Speaker and room interface

      2. Source component

      3. Power amp (more problems here than preamp because of the power interface reuqired).

      4. Preamp

      5. Speaker cables

      6. Interconnects


      So, where do you put your money? Every where you can afford to...


      In the past, theres' some who have said the source component is most important. Others say the speakers are most important, and dominate the sound more than the source component.

      Well, with a pair of good 8" two ways speakers like I have you can clearly hear the difference between a $3,000 SACD player and a very good redbook DAC on CD- the DAC being the winner in this case, so although the speakers are not "state of the art", and won't do ear bleed sound levels, they're good enough to hear things about source components that cost several times more. Based on that, I'd probably put a fair amount of money into my source unit if necessary- I'll never have anything less than the Benchmark DAC1 in my system again.

      But then this system in which I'm making these judgements has balanced interconnects which cost more than the DAC upgrade in question... I don't think they make as big a difference as the source component, but I'm glad I have them and don't begrudge the money I spent on them (over $800 each). Interconnects and speaker cables are like the road you drive a car on... you can't really drive a Ferrari fast on a crummy road, can you? Or the experience isn't very nice if you do.

      So, beware becoming a critical listner... there are solutions out there, and the righ choice can be synergistic at modest amounts of money (for example, an Ayre integrated would do OK driving my current speakers, and certainly set me back less than a preamp-power amp combo), but when you come across a component that has you going back to CD's you bought in the 80's to listen to them again, and rediscover the music, well, then that's a worthwhile component. IMO.

      Regards,

      Jon
      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
      Calliope CC Supreme
      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • sharnyo
        Junior Member
        • Jun 2004
        • 17

        #4
        Thanks for sharing some thought on the subject.

        I agree with Jon that source unit is important. We can't do anything about the media, other than to pick one that has the highest standard of recording. The player's job is to extract from the media accurately, and it's the first part of the chain until it goes out from the speaker and eventually to our ears.

        But we know different players (even the top ones of comparable price) differ in the output quality - not to say one is better than the other but just different flavor/style. Using a good headphone can tell. Is it the DAC that makes the difference, power supply unit, electronics ?

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15261

          #5
          Well, let's put this in perspective.

          Knowing what I know now, if somethign happened to my present system and I had to replace it from scratch, what would I do?


          For starters, I'd get another Benchmark DAC1, and probably just some decent MOR CD player as a transport. I do like SACD, have a lot of disks, and at a given level of performance (one piece player) SACD's do sound better than CD. BUT, for ~ $1K, you can get Redbook performance in the DAC1 that's much better than Redbook performance in even the mult-kilobuck Sony SACD players, and which on the CD layer of hybrids gives the SACD layer on an SCD777ES a good run for the money. Oh, did I mention it has a good headphone amp and volume control built in? Enough for a starter system, at least. It uses BUF634 for the output drive (low Z open looop buffer chip in TO220 package), and will drive any headphone and long cables without problems.

          Amplifier? Need lots of current, low open loop distortion, low or no feedback (IMO). If you've got bucks, get an Ayre V1 or Theta Dreadnaught. If you've got some bucks, but not as much, start with an Ayre V5x. If you're an impecunious hound dog like I often am, look for a good deal on a used Aragon 8008 BB on Audiogon. If you're lucky, you might stumble into a good deal on a pair of Palladiums, like I did. There are many other possible choices; some folks like Bryston a lot (usually not too hard to find good used ones), and if you have a quirky bent, try to find a good used Conrad Johnson or Sonic Frontiers vacuum tube amp- they're great, also.


          Speakers? Well, I build my own. But there's other commercial ones and DIY I like. Quad 63 ESL's, for example. Wilson Watt Puppys. Linkwitz's Orions are very, very good. Notice I do prefer dipoles... Here, personal taste, room space, other issues affect choices a great deal. I'd listen to Revel's and Snells, and Magneplanars, too. (I've owned maggies in the past). YMMV.


          Regards,

          Jon
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • jedwards
            Junior Member
            • Jun 2004
            • 5

            #6
            Listening position if often overlooked...

            along with the room's acoustics in general. You can put a $100K sound system in a tin can, and it will sound like it is in a tin can.

            Reflections can play a major role in sound characteristics as well, since normally not all frequencies are reflected. Recording studios will spend the same or a bit more on room acoustics than the actual equipment they use. It is half the battle.

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15261

              #7
              Well, I only wanted to make a short post, not write a thesis.

              Those interested in more of what jedwards is talking about are highly recommend to check out some sites like RPG Acoustics. I've used their software and some other products for years.

              What efforts and successes have you had with the acoutic end of the equation? I used to build small studios back in Colorado, back in the days when LEDE was a new concept.

              Note, one of the reasons I favor dipoles as speakers, is that for conventional rooms without special treatments they usally give better results.

              Regards,

              Jon
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
              Modula MT XE
              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
              Wavecor Ardent

              SMJ
              Minerva Monitor
              Calliope
              Ardent D

              In Development...
              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
              Obi-Wan
              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
              Modula PWB
              Calliope CC Supreme
              Natalie P Ultra
              Natalie P Supreme
              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • sharnyo
                Junior Member
                • Jun 2004
                • 17

                #8
                [Amplifier? Need lots of current, low open loop distortion, low or no feedback (IMO). If you've got bucks, get an Ayre V1 or Theta Dreadnaught. If you've got some bucks, but not as much, start with an Ayre V5x. If you're an impecunious hound dog like I often am, look for a good deal on a used Aragon 8008 BB on Audiogon. If you're lucky, you might stumble into a good deal on a pair of Palladiums, like I did. There are many other possible choices; some folks like Bryston a lot (usually not too hard to find good used ones), and if you have a quirky bent, try to find a good used Conrad Johnson or Sonic Frontiers vacuum tube amp- they're great, also. ]


                Jon, you mentioned about amplifier. I always thought that amp is just that - to amplify the sound signal in the cleanest, non-distorted way possible. What are the differences you notice in your list of recommended amps ? Does each produce different treatment to the sound signal ?

                Comment

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