Mixing balanced and unbalanced

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  • sbank
    Junior Member
    • Jun 2004
    • 20

    Mixing balanced and unbalanced

    Hi All,

    I have a question pertaining to mixing balanced and unbalanced interconnects. My dealer recommends in keeping everything one or the other. (eg all balanced or all unbalanced)

    I currently have a Rotel RB-1080 2-channel Amp for my fronts. I've been using for quite a while, balanced XLR cables to feed this from my pre/pro. I just recently picked up a Rotel RMB-1075 5-channel amp. But this amp does not have balanced connections (and I have no desire to upgrade this new amp. (At least not yet ).

    So my question is this, should I replace my XLR cables with some good RCA cables for my fronts? Or should I just go in my pre/pro settings and adjust the levels so that I get equal sound pressure and keep the two fronts as balanced and everything else as unbalanced?

    thanks as always.
    --
    Steve
  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    #2
    Short answer? Whatever makes you happy- really!

    Longer answer is that MOST consumer electronics at this level are implementing balanced connections by using an additional converter/driver stage and reciever stage, so running unbalanced will be slightly less electronics in the signal path. This type of active balanced circuit also doesn't have the kind of stellar CMRR (common mode rejection ratio) that you get with good transformers. So, if you're gear is on the same outlet feed, and your interconnects are less than 20 ft or so, there's probably no advantage at all to going balanced.

    Note that some gear, like Ayre, BAT, Theta digital, actually uses circuits that are balanced differential all the way through; for these, using full balanced connections is the best way to go.

    Now, if you're keeping your original Rotel for the fronts, and it's working fine connected as is, I can't really see bothering to get a new set of interconnects to switch to unbalanced, unless you were making a clear upgrade on the interconnect quality.

    ~Jon
    the AudioWorx
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    Comment

    • sbank
      Junior Member
      • Jun 2004
      • 20

      #3
      Thanks jonMarsh for the reply.

      I read through (before I wrote this post) a previous thread on balanced interconnects. And I learned that the Rotel's balanced connections aren't truly balanced. (I'm guessing my Bryston pre/pro is tho). And I also read your comments in that thread.

      My main concern is with the output levels of mixing the interconnects. My dealer said that I would lose (I think he said) 3 dB of signal. And he drew a nice little sin wave that I remembered from back in HS. But I'm not sure what it all meant. (Something along the lines of the amplitude of the balanced signal is double that of the unbalanced signal).

      The way he was talking, seems to imply that by mixing balanced and unbalanced, I would somehow lose some of the signal. (Not sure if I am making myself clear, since I am not really sure I understood what he meant.)

      Now if this is something that I can just compensate with my pre/pro settings, then I think I will do just that. (Instead of buying an additional pair of interconnects.)

      But If I somehow lose `something' (not sure what something is), then I'll just go with unbalanced all around.
      --
      Steve

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15259

        #4
        Your amplifier sensitivity may differ on balanced and unbalanced. You won't lose any signal level; you just may need a higher level for either the amp with the balanced input, or the other- it depends on what their rated sensitivity is. Your preamp can put out more than either needs, and the level matching is setup when you match the speakers for playback, anyway.

        A Non-issue, in my opinion. Someone at your dealer is trying to be helpful, but probably doesn't really understand.

        Regards,

        Jon
        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • aud19
          Twin Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2003
          • 16706

          #5
          I totally agree with everything Jon said :T You may be able to sell your used XLR cables and upgrade to som high quality RCA's to get everything running unbalanced but I don't think you have much to worry about either way.

          Jason
          Jason

          Comment

          • goskers
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2004
            • 106

            #6
            Can someone give me an idea of how the balanced outs of the benchmark dac1 and aragon 8008bb are? I would be interested in using them but of course not if they were not designed well.

            Thanks

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15259

              #7
              The Benchmark DAC1 uses differential DAC chips (balanced) and continues the signal path to the output this way- so I would call it a "true" balanced output, though not quite in the same way as an Ayre CX-7, in which the audio circuitry is an actual balanced differential amplifier.


              Now, the Aragon BB is a single ended amp, and the balanced input is an "add-on" circuit. So, conventional wisdom would be to skip it...

              So, how come my Aragon 8008 X3 sounds better running on the balanced inputs through my NFB preamp than unbalanced, or even unbalanced through a pure passive preamp? Is it the Ayre Signature balanced interconnects, versus some older Cardas unbalanced cables? I don't know... it just sounds cleaner and actually a bit less tizzy in the highs.

              So, if you have an Aragon BB, I'd suggest trying it both ways if you have an opportunity to do so by borrowing similar interconnects or some other way that avoids breaking the bank. My balanced interconnects to the amp are 3 meters long. You don't want to know what MSRP is for those puppies. Even the "very friendly" price was close to the cost of my DAC1. But they're stellar- they should be, development took over three years of work between Cardas and Ayre.


              Best regards,

              Jon
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
              Modula MT XE
              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
              Wavecor Ardent

              SMJ
              Minerva Monitor
              Calliope
              Ardent D

              In Development...
              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
              Obi-Wan
              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
              Modula PWB
              Calliope CC Supreme
              Natalie P Ultra
              Natalie P Supreme
              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • goskers
                Senior Member
                • Jun 2004
                • 106

                #8
                Thanks Jon,

                I was trying to figure out if it would be advantageous to source a BB instead of ST. I have some pretty darned good 'regular' interconnects so I was just wondering if running balanced all the way through would be beneficial. I guess the best thing about the BB would be the PS and driver increase.

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15259

                  #9
                  If you have a true balanced preamp, then running balanced all the way through would make some logical sense.

                  I recommend the BB's for the PS and output transistor SOA improvement. BTW, the extra output transistors lower the open loop distortion, so even apart from power handling, it's a worthwhile change for the BB. I'm considering a further mod to the Xmod which would increase the max number of outputs for the very same reason... the trouble is, this whole exercise is getting to look a lot like Kramming a Krell into an Aragon chasis.

                  OTOH, a double decker PCB layout may actually reduce costs, as then I may be able to get by with just double sided PCBs instead of the four layer boards I'd been pondering. So many ideas, so little time...

                  ~Jon
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

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