Who uses XLR interconnects?

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  • jazznsoccer
    Member
    • Apr 2004
    • 87

    Who uses XLR interconnects?

    I've heard/read a lot about XLR interconnects and sems to make sense that they would be the best bet for connecting DVD (audio) to pre/pro and thence to amp. And with noise cancelling properties seems like it would be best to have monoblocks next to speaker with as short as possible speaker wire to the speakers (at least the fronts).

    However, the XLR carry low level signals as oppsed to speaker wire which carries high power signals so any picked up noise would result in lower noise to signal ratios.

    Anybody compared XLR to HQ interconnects? Anybody using XLR?

    And does cat cables offer XLR?
  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    #2
    XLR's (balanced connections) offer a lot of potential, and of course they're used pretty much exclusively in studio connections. Line levels in studio gear are 20 dB higher, than typical "home" line levels, which actually means they're pretty similar to speaker voltage levels, too!

    Some balanced equipment is "balanced" more as an afterthought, for example, just using a converter at the or additional output section to create a balanced output drive. That can be helpful for controlling noise and improving CMRR, but it doesn't deliver the full benefit. Also, there's a difference between "active balanced", which uses semiconductor circuits to make a balanced polarity signal, and transformer isolated balanced, which uses high grade audio transformers like Jesen's to provide voltage balancing and high CMRR (common mode rejection ratio). Transformer balanced circuits reject RF without problems, and can handle 50-250V of common mode noise, (an extreme situation), which active balanced doesn't do.

    I used some balanced connection on inputs and output to power amp; my preamp is a true balanced circuit, being based on a balanced differential non feedback gain cell. Ayre preamps, for example, are balanced differential in the complete signal path. Pass X series amplifiers use a type of balanced differential connection which lowers the inherent distortion of the circuit by ~ 20dB. However, most preamps with balanced connections use conversion circuits at the input/output to go from single ended (internal circuitry) to balanced.

    Now, in a home system, as long as most gear is powered off the same line, and you use an RF transformer isolator like a Mondial or Jensen on the cable system, you won't have any significant problems from cable runs (even "long" home cable runs are short by studio standards), and the advantages of balanced connections are not that big. If you live near a radio transmission tower, or a Ham, then things might be different, becuase balanced connections can offer between 20a nd 60 dB better noise rejection. In most setups, the noise floor is already low enough that this doesn't provide a meaningful benefit.

    Most receivers and many pre-pro's don't have balanced connections available for the audio signal path. I don't recall ever seeing a DVD-A or SACD player that uses balanced connections on multi-channel outputs. Sony offered balanced outputs on the SCD1, but it's an additional stage after the unbalanced output, and most agree the SDC1 sounds a skosh more transparent through the unbalanced outputs.

    Hope this helps...
    the AudioWorx
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    Comment

    • jazznsoccer
      Member
      • Apr 2004
      • 87

      #3
      The Rotel RSP-1098 and RMB-1095 have balanced connectors. Do they just have converters at the connections or is this carried through the circuitry? The web site/user manuals don't discuss this point.

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15259

        #4
        I don't know with certainty, but I'd be willing to bet a dinner at any restaurant in the USA that it's just a conversion at the output/input. Many pre-pro's do have balanced outputs available. Most of these units use opamps for the signal path in analog. Gear from Ayre, Theta Digital, BAT, and others, use complete proprietary discrete circuitry. Of course, this costs more...

        The Rotel RSP-1098 is a very nice unit; I especially like that it has component switching; in the standard configuration, it does not appear to have balanced inputs or outputs.



        OTOH, the Halo C1 does have balanced connections, but then it costs twice as much....


        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • jazznsoccer
          Member
          • Apr 2004
          • 87

          #5
          My Bad - only the RMB-1095 has the XLR connectors

          Comment

          • Lex
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Apr 2001
            • 27461

            #6
            Yes, CAT offers balanced for Silvercats and Kingcats, as well as Quantum Supernovas, can do unshielded, or shielded copper or silver in one form or another. We can also do balanced to unbalanced, or unbalanced to balanaced, though I don't really advertise that fact, as it's sort of a pain to think your way through those things every time. Mind bending I tell ya!

            The bottom line is, unless it's the only way available to go balanced to unbalanace, (rca to xlr or xlr to rca), or vice versa, it really gains you nothing. Only XLR to XLR has the noise cancelling properties of balanced, and as Jon described, there's a difference still yet between XLR or balanaced connections, and what is generally referred to in audio circles as "TRUE Balanced". I believe the latter reference by Jon to the better components being used gets you to true balanced.

            True balanced actually only requires 2 pins be connected, not a 3rd pin. In fact, there can be benefit to leaving the 3rd pin unconnected. Standard XLR may not always work with this configuration. Jon, care to comment on that point? I won't swear to that, but I believe it to be accurate.

            Lex
            Doug
            "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

            Comment

            • Scarp
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2003
              • 632

              #7
              Rotel RMB1095 balanced connections aren't truly balanced. They just are converted back to unbalanced. So using the unbalanced connections will give you little improvement.

              The Parasound C1/C2 aren't truly balanced and differential, so the main reason for using balanced would be for long cable runs, or the 6 dB gain increase. Soundwise they unbalanced and balanced are the same.

              I currently use balanced cables, but am going back to unbalanced, since they are more flexible in case I change equipement again in the future And also because the unbalanced cables are bit cheaper.

              Comment

              • Kevin P
                Member
                • Aug 2000
                • 10809

                #8
                I use XLRs in my LFE path, since both my BFD and my Peavey pro amp accept them. Since pro gear often accepts XLR or 1/4-inch phono plugs (and not RCA), I decided the XLR route would be better, since I could plug straight in with a custom RCA-to-XLR cable that Doug made me, and eliminate the RCA-to-1/4-inch adapters I was using before. Though it's not truly balanced this way, it works well, and the XLR connections are more rugged than the 1/4-inch connectors.

                Comment

                • aud19
                  Twin Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2003
                  • 16706

                  #9
                  Personally I'd avoid XLR/Balanced, IMO they'll offer little to no bennefit in 99.9% of home applications and that's if the equipment is even really a balanced design...which as you can see most are not. As Kevin stated the biggest advantage is a slighty more durable connector. Save your money or better yet spend it on even higher quality RCA cables.

                  Jason
                  Jason

                  Comment

                  • Brandon B
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Jun 2001
                    • 2193

                    #10
                    I have Crown amps runnning my LFE and woofers. and they have all balanced inputs.

                    Found something interesting yesterday as I am moving stuff around and making new connections. The Crown manuals have 4 different diagrams for hooking an unbalanced source to the amps, 1 for a souce with a 2 pronged power plug and twin conductor+shield cable, one for a 3 pronged plug (grounded) source with that cable, and 2 more for a coax type (2 conductor) cable with grounded and ungrounded source quipment. I had used a 2 conductor + shield where the shield and ground conductor were joined together at the RCA end, coming fom a source component which did have a ground prong on the plug. Was getting some hum as well as noise, made one up where the shield is only attached at the XLR end as Crown showed in their diagram, and poof, no more noise in the woofer at all.

                    Probably not news to Jon and Lex, but that was a new one on me. Thought there was only one way to build an unbalanced to balanced cable.

                    BB

                    Comment

                    • Wayne A. Pflughaupt
                      Member
                      • Jun 2002
                      • 69

                      #11
                      I've heard/read a lot about XLR interconnects and sems to make sense that they would be the best bet for connecting DVD (audio) to pre/proā€¦
                      I think you have a problem right out of the hole, jazznsoccer. Someone correct me if Iā€™m wrong, but I donā€™t think anyone makes a DVD audio player with balanced outputs. And where would it be used? Does anyone make a receiver/pre-pro with balanced inputs for DVD audio? :roll:

                      Regards,
                      Wayne A. Pflughaupt

                      Comment

                      • aarsoe
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2004
                        • 795

                        #12
                        Thats not entirely true..

                        For DVD A

                        Mcintosh MVP851
                        Meridian 800 (not sure about the G series)
                        Linn

                        And I am sure that others exist as well..

                        On SACD the list is much longer, so just to mention a few...

                        Krell
                        Xindak
                        Linn

                        Guess this should prove the point :lol:

                        Comment

                        • aarsoe
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2004
                          • 795

                          #13
                          One other thing on balanced vs not.

                          In my experience (do not take this as a fact) balanced cables are less fussy about the quality. So a lower quality cable will degrade the signal less than compareble unbalanced cable..

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15259

                            #14
                            Yeah, this is where the whole multi-channel analog thing gets scrarey- it's bad enough forking over the moolah for a really nice set of moderate length balanced interconnects (price out a 3 meter balanced Ayre signature interconnect pair sometime - pretty expensive, but reasonable compared with Cardas Golden Reference, and just as transparent, possibly more neutral ). Now make that three pair to connect a 5.1 audio output to a preamp. Or, in a more important position, from the Pre-Pro to the power amp(s). Yikes! :E

                            ~Jon
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • Wayne A. Pflughaupt
                              Member
                              • Jun 2002
                              • 69

                              #15
                              Thats not entirely true..

                              For DVD A

                              Mcintosh MVP851
                              Meridian 800 (not sure about the G series)
                              Linn

                              And I am sure that others exist as well..

                              On SACD the list is much longer, so just to mention a few...

                              Krell
                              Xindak
                              Linn

                              Guess this should prove the point
                              Yes, point taken. For my first point, but not the second. Are there any pre-pros with balanced multi-channel inputs? If not, the playerā€™s outputs are pretty pointless.

                              Regards,
                              Wayne A. Pflughaupt

                              Comment

                              • adslinkato
                                Junior Member
                                • Jul 2010
                                • 4

                                #16
                                I resume this v. old thread to ask If you think that exist a CD and/or SACD and/or DVD-A and/or DVD and/or BD player with all balanced XLR (AES/EBU, "Cannon plugs") outputs. (Not the E.A.D. DVD Master 8000 Pro).
                                Last edited by adslinkato; 11 February 2011, 04:14 Friday.

                                Comment

                                • Chris D
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Dec 2000
                                  • 16877

                                  #17
                                  I use the Parasound Halo D3 as my audio disc player. CD/DVD/SACD/DVD-A. It has 2-channel XLR outputs.
                                  CHRIS

                                  Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                  - Pleasantville

                                  Comment

                                  • adslinkato
                                    Junior Member
                                    • Jul 2010
                                    • 4

                                    #18
                                    Thank you, Chris, but i mean ALL BALANCED outputs. Any idea?

                                    Comment

                                    • mjb
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Mar 2005
                                      • 1483

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by adslinkato
                                      Thank you, Chris, but i mean ALL BALANCED outputs. Any idea?
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                                      Comment

                                      • adslinkato
                                        Junior Member
                                        • Jul 2010
                                        • 4

                                        #20
                                        Thank you for your interesting search, mjb, but noone of them have ALL (5+1, 7+1 or more) THE CHANNELS output with XRL AES/EBU. I think that the only product available is that old E.A.D. DVD Master 8000 Pro. :M


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                                        Comment

                                        • Chris D
                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Dec 2000
                                          • 16877

                                          #21
                                          Yeah, I thought you might have meant multichannel analog XLR's. Absolutely a rarity.
                                          CHRIS

                                          Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                          - Pleasantville

                                          Comment

                                          • adslinkato
                                            Junior Member
                                            • Jul 2010
                                            • 4

                                            #22
                                            Correct! Sorry, I'm writing from Italy. I'll try to be more technical in the future.

                                            Comment

                                            • wettou
                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                              • May 2006
                                              • 3389

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by jazznsoccer
                                              I've heard/read a lot about XLR interconnects and sems to make sense that they would be the best bet for connecting DVD (audio) to pre/pro and thence to amp. And with noise cancelling properties seems like it would be best to have monoblocks next to speaker with as short as possible speaker wire to the speakers (at least the fronts).

                                              However, the XLR carry low level signals as oppsed to speaker wire which carries high power signals so any picked up noise would result in lower noise to signal ratios.

                                              Anybody compared XLR to HQ interconnects? Anybody using XLR?

                                              And does cat cables offer XLR?
                                              Yes XLR are the way to go and you don't need to spend a fortune, CAT cables or pro like Mogami, Belden, Canare
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