Fleshtones

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  • KennyG
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Sep 2000
    • 745

    Fleshtones

    Something is bothering me about my projector.
    It's the fleshtones in dark scenes. In light scenes the fleshtone are very good, but in scenes with shadows or darkness, the fleshtones are not very flesh colored, they're more on the blue side.
    One of note is in the Fifth Element, just before she drives off the building, the cop who's trying to talk her back in is wearing a visor with blue lenses, his face is back in the hallway, and his face is a light shade of blue-ish flesh, not at all the way is shows on the computer monitor.
    Any idea what adjustment this might be?
    I'm sure it's the projector, I can hook up a computer monitor, and the tones look correct in these darker scenes.
  • KennyG
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Sep 2000
    • 745

    #2
    Got it!
    It was an adjustment call "white balance", each gun can be adjusted, and there's a white and black setting, I couldn't get the black to do anything noticable, but as soon as I decreased the blue gun's white level from 50 to 47, the blue hue dropped back to a more realistic level, and the fleshtones became more prominent...now I've noticed my horizonal focus is not as good as my vertical...this just keeps getting better

    (edit) Nope, this was wrong, by lowering the blue the reds are to prominent in the well lit scenes now...I...must...fight...on...!

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15261

      #3
      Geee, Kenny,

      Aren't CRT projectors fun to setup? Actually, color balance is something you have to go through with almost *anything* if you want it right- very few units are very good out of the box, unfortunately.

      Now, I'm puzzled with what you describe, because I would expect the "black" color balance to have effect down at the very dark end of the scale. The other possible way to adjust is to set the black bias level for the blue and red CRT's; (you do have seperate controls?); obviously, what you've got is a gray scale tracking problem. Put on the AVI gray scale pattern, and though it's hard to "eyeball it", you should find that the bottom end (from your description) is a little bit bluish. If you've got seperate bias controls for each CRT, backing off on blue slightly should do the trick.

      Regards,

      Jon




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      Comment

      • KennyG
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Sep 2000
        • 745

        #4
        BLASTED!!!
        I been gone a couple days, so I haven't had a chance to post, but after looking closer I did not fix the problem...it's actually a different problem, possibly hot spots.
        What's really going on here is this; I've got a slightly blueish tint to the faces on the right side of the screen, and a slightly redish tint to the faces on the left, this corresponds to the positions of the blue and red guns on the projector.
        First problem is my screen, it's gain is 2.5.
        Second problem is the throw distance of the projector, I set it up per the previous owner's 110.5 inch distance...factory spec is 118"...even at 3% I'm still 4" to close, I'm going to back it up to 114".
        I have a line on an incredible deal for a 10 ft, motorized, tab tensioned, Draper, with 1.3 gain, this screen is way to big, but...for the price I can "frame" the area I want to use with black wool or something.
        Do you suppose that the 4" increase in throw distance, plus the lowered screen gain will help this situation?

        Kenny

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15261

          #5
          Hey Kenny,


          What make and model of 2.5 gain screen do you have? My experience is that the only screen with that kind of gain that works well is the DA-LITE High Power series; most others are too prone to exactly the kind of hotspotting you describe. It doesn't show up with single lens LCD projectors, but with CRT's it's often a problem.
          The 1.3 screen should have a lot less issues with it, of course, because the senstivity to angle will be much lower. I don't think the throw distance change will affect matters all that much.
          BTW, though the High Power surface is retroreflective and nominally designed for low mounts on the projector, they actually work pretty well even for high mounts, except that it's a good idea to use a dark ceiling color to keep reflected light down.

          Regards,

          Jon




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          Comment

          • KennyG
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Sep 2000
            • 745

            #6
            Well, I bought the Draper today, I'm going to use it for a month or two so I can get to know the 1.3 gain, then I'll sell it and get a more reasonable size (at lease reasonable for my size room)
            Tonight I'll find out just how much of this was caused by the screen.
            Kenny

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15261

              #7
              Let us know what turns out- how your Draper 1.3 works.

              -Jon




              Earth First!
              _______________________________
              We'll screw up the other planets later....
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
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              Isiris
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              SMJ
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              In Development...
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              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • KennyG
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Sep 2000
                • 745

                #8
                Turns out all my problems were that high gain screen!!!
                The color shifting is gone, fleshtone are even across the screen! Even my focus patterns look better. The high gain screen is obviously not as precise as this Draper.
                Nice screen, but way to big, and I don't care much for the 4X3 ratio, but for now it's worth it.

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15261

                  #9
                  Congratulations, Kenny!

                  Glad to hear it's working out, even if only has a cost effective interim solution.

                  BTW, got the damping panels this weekend. Thank you so very, very much! I owe you!

                  I'm working on my daughter's PC, so I'm going to wait till next weekend to intall; I've been notified the Telemann DTV 200 card is in stock for shipment to my order, so maybe I'll get lucky and be able to install both next weekend! Maybe I'll have a high res superbowl on the small screen!

                  Regards,

                  Jon




                  Earth First!
                  _______________________________
                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • KennyG
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Sep 2000
                    • 745

                    #10
                    Ahhhhh, I dream of HD superbowl!!!

                    Comment

                    • KennyG
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Sep 2000
                      • 745

                      #11
                      Well, my problem is solve, and it was a simple fix!!!
                      The problem was...me It seems I just wasn't used to seeing ownly movies on my video display, my last display was a 35" TV, so not only did we watch movies on it, but everything else as well. So I saw alot of bright, well lit TV type stuff, and it all balanced out.
                      I now realize just how different many movies look from regular TV, alot of shadows etc.
                      The way I finally figured this out was to connect up my DSS reciever and pay-per-view Gladiator, in sync with my htpc playing it with a two minute lag...low and behold with minor tweeking the htpc looked better, with better color saturation...even in those faces.
                      Then I noticed something else, the DSS picture looked sharper? I started thinking, awhile back I noticed that my sharpness pattern on the AVIA disc had great looking vertical line and fussy horizonal ones...vertical overscan???
                      I tried a new resolution 800 X 600, fuzzies gone!!!
                      So I am now working on the best res without overscan (I am using AVIA's overscan pattern now)
                      I'm up to 904 X 640, there are very minor scan lines showing at about 3 feet from the screen, and most time you can't see any. My next res will be 675 X 1024...or something close to that.
                      Now I'm really starting to see just how good this thing can look.
                      I just wish there was a book that I could buy about all this stuff, it's tuff learning on the fly.
                      Kenny

                      Comment

                      • KennyG
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Sep 2000
                        • 745

                        #12
                        Well, the above post is not correct either, the problem was not me, after much help from Guy Kuo (AVIA) the problems has been solved!
                        This projector has a small test/normal switch that when in the test position kills all the bightness controls, that's "bright bias, bright gain, and brightness" once that switch was set it normal, and some adjustments made the picture has come alive, with fleshtones and colors showing beautifully in both light and dark scenes...this is how it should be!!
                        I can now say that this is an incredible picture...before I could not.

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15261

                          #13
                          So that's why the "black balance" controls weren't working, because you were in the "test" position? Well, I'm glad to hear you've got it sorted out, now- I'm sure you must be a lot happier! Your comments do bear out a common theme with CRT projectors, - beam spot size, focus, convergence, are all very critical to being able to use higher resolutions- otherwise, it turns into soft mush.
                          You could get a 16X9 raster with 1024X576, this is the portion of an XGA screen which is used with anamorphic DVD sources. From what you're describing, I'd try to optimize for that, or if that's pushing the projector a little to hard, then 960X540P. Were you at 1280X720P before lowering the rate? Are you still going for a 16X9 raster?

                          Regards,

                          Jon




                          Earth First!
                          _______________________________
                          We'll screw up the other planets later....
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
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                          Isiris
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                          SMJ
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                          In Development...
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                          Natalie P Supreme
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                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • KennyG
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Sep 2000
                            • 745

                            #14
                            Yes I'm using a 16 X 9 raster with 1280X720 @ 120hz refresh rate...all I can say is this picture is stunning...at least for none HD. Today I got the factory tech's calibration technique for all the "white reference" settings, and will do them in the next week or two...it's pretty indepth, and uses voltage checks for reference.
                            At this time I'm just so jazzed with this picture all I want is a week or two of "tweekless" bliss!
                            Plus I just finished dropping the noise level of this unit about 9db...but it's still to loud, so a hush box is next...then I must build a Solar Cell gray scale calibration tool as I don't have access to a colorimeter to do kelvin cal...the fun just never stops!

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15261

                              #15
                              Well, at least by the time you retire, WHENEVER that is, it should be all done... but that's when you'd have the time to play with it, anyway. It sounds like you're well on the way to Nirvana with your setup. Maybe you just need a 1/4 rule; only do tweaks and adjustments one week a month, the rest of the time just watch and have fun.
                              Me, I'm just envious; have to stop picking up small toys (ordered a new digital camera this week), and get serious about saving up for my next projector. With the space limitations and setup preferences I have, it still looks like it will be a 10HT driven by the HTPC- I've just got to get serious about my priorities.
                              Do you have the 2.64 patch for WINDVD? The Creative Labs DVDROM I bought for my audio test system came with WINDVD, but it's only 2.2, and a special multichannel version- I haven't tried the 2.64 patch on it. It works well on my 2.1 version that came with an Hitachi DVDROM. If it would help to have the patch on CD, let me know and I'll send it to you.

                              Regards,

                              Jon




                              Earth First!
                              _______________________________
                              We'll screw up the other planets later....
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
                              Wavecor Ardent

                              SMJ
                              Minerva Monitor
                              Calliope
                              Ardent D

                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                              Obi-Wan
                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                              Modula PWB
                              Calliope CC Supreme
                              Natalie P Ultra
                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • KennyG
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Sep 2000
                                • 745

                                #16
                                No I do not have it...but I'm not sure I'm going to keep using winDVD, I am getting more "glitches" in any one movie using winDVD than I got watching ten movies on powerDVD. It's nothing big, a stutter here, and dropped frame or two there, but powerDVD never did any of this.
                                To tell you the truth, I'm beginning to think a good digital projector and stand alone progressive DVD player might be the way to go, all this tweekin' and pullin' my hair is starting to get old. Now that I have a great picture I'm dealing with some other issues...torture never seems to stop

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15261

                                  #17
                                  Well, Kenny, that's my point- the 2.64 version is very stable and glitch free in my experience. I'll burn a disk tonight for you and drop it in the mail and you can try the patch.

                                  Yes, I can imagine that life would be simpler and less hassle with, say, a 10HT and Sony 9000ES, or some other combo; most of the high res digital projectors are lacking in the built in scaler, and work much better with an HTPC setup. Then there are units like the Vidikron and Runco that have a second box of "processor" electronics to do what the Pixel works processor in the Sony 10HT does, but the price seems out of line at 2X the Sony. I'd be pretty keen on DLP, except that my tests with a unit from work show that I seem to be one of those people that are very sensitive to "rainbow" artifacts from the color wheel; my eyes seem to have lower persistance than average, flicker in movie theaters bothers me, too. Interlaced 480i makes me crazy.

                                  I'll send out the patch; it's a total breeze to install, and it may make you reconsider about WINDVD. I have a couple of copies of PowerDVD, but I'm still using WINDVD, and prefer it overall.

                                  Regards,

                                  Jon




                                  Earth First!
                                  _______________________________
                                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                  the AudioWorx
                                  Natalie P
                                  M8ta
                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                  Modula MT XE
                                  Modula Xtreme
                                  Isiris
                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                  SMJ
                                  Minerva Monitor
                                  Calliope
                                  Ardent D

                                  In Development...
                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                  Obi-Wan
                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                  Modula PWB
                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment

                                  • KennyG
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Sep 2000
                                    • 745

                                    #18
                                    Thanks Jon, I will hold out hope for winDVD, because it does have a better picture, and if possible I'd really rather use it.
                                    Do you have my address?

                                    Comment

                                    • JonMarsh
                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 15261

                                      #19
                                      It should be on the return address of the damping sheets you sent- I'll check tonight, been getting home late. Otherwise, email me. I'm quite pleased with performance with 2.64.

                                      Regards,

                                      Jon




                                      Earth First!
                                      _______________________________
                                      We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                      the AudioWorx
                                      Natalie P
                                      M8ta
                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                      Modula MT XE
                                      Modula Xtreme
                                      Isiris
                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                      SMJ
                                      Minerva Monitor
                                      Calliope
                                      Ardent D

                                      In Development...
                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                      Obi-Wan
                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                      Modula PWB
                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                      Comment

                                      • KennyG
                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                        • Sep 2000
                                        • 745

                                        #20
                                        I checked last night, my copy is something like 2.1, so I'd be grateful for any update you have.
                                        This HT is driving me nuts, I've got an incredible picture last night by using the factories REF WHITE calibration steps, however once I set this thing up for the correct test point voltages, my G2, or as NEC calls it BLACK BIAS is driving way to hard, so something else is amiss...it's another night of cal&tweek...I'm starting to become frustrated with all this messing around, I'd really like to sit back a enjoy a movie, but it looks like several more days before that can happen.

                                        Comment

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