OH the dredded buzz is haunting my setup.**SOLVED THE MYSTERY**

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  • ht_addict
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2002
    • 508

    OH the dredded buzz is haunting my setup.**SOLVED THE MYSTERY**

    My old setup:

    Paradigm Mini Monitors
    Paradigm CC-350
    Paradigm PS-1000
    Rotel RMB-1066

    New Setup:

    Paradigm Studio 40v3
    Paradigm Studio 20v3
    Paradigm Studio CC470
    Paradigm PW-2100
    Rotel RMB-1095

    Equipment remaining same:

    Panasonic RP82
    Marantz AV560U pre/pro
    AR surge protector

    Problem:

    WIth my old setup everything was fine. Not a peep out of the speakers as far as background noise or the 60hz buzz. When I added my 1095 I started to get a background buzz which was minimized by replacing my coax cable(AR Master series) with an optical from DVD to Pre/pro. Bring in the Studios and its the same, but now that I've added the new PW-2100 sub this buzz is LOUD. I've tried running my amp off a different socket via extension cord to upstairs and still the same. ANy suggestions would be great. Would a dedicated line solve the problem?

    ht_addict
  • David Meek
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 8938

    #2
    Are you running your TV cable into the system at any point? If so, disconnect it and see if that cures the hum. Also, cable companies are notorious for putting in a separate ground for their installs. If that doesn't fix it, check with Mondial. They make a product called the Magic Box (Burke Strickland - another of our moderators - uses one) which can eliminate hums.




    David - HTGuide flunky
    Our "Theater"
    Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

    .

    David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

    Comment

    • ht_addict
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2002
      • 508

      #3
      David,

      Thanks for the quick reply. Removing the TV cable conection doesn't do anything. What does is removing my cables(AR Master series 230 Audio cable) from pre/pro to amp. Could it be the cables?

      ht_addict

      Comment

      • David Meek
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2000
        • 8938

        #4
        Oh yeah, it could be. :yesnod: Do you have access to a friend's system? Someone that could loan you a completely different brand of cable to try? Those may not be shielded cables and if so, are possibly picking up interference from an outside source.




        David - HTGuide flunky
        Our "Theater"
        Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

        .

        David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

        Comment

        • Danbry39
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Sep 2002
          • 1584

          #5
          I've become a firm believer that cables and the power cord can radiate noise from one to the other and that shielding and separation are important. Try reconnecting your cables so that the power cords are separated as much as possible from the cables and see if that helps. You might see if a nicely shielded optical cable does the trick. I'm assuming that your DVD player only has optical out.




          Keith
          Keith

          Comment

          • Azeke
            Super Senior Member
            • Mar 2003
            • 2123

            #6
            As Keith stated you must ensure your powercords (including the 12v triggers, that haunted me for awhile) and speaker wires are separated from each other. You must also make sure there are no cell phones located near your equipment (chargers etc.). Ensure all your connectors are fully inserted. You can disconnect each source and troubleshoot.
            Have you made any changes to your Home theater from it's orginal configuration, (i.e. dimmers, surges, etc.)?

            Hope this helps,

            Azeke

            Comment

            • ht_addict
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2002
              • 508

              #7
              Thanks for the input from all. Hopefully I'll get a chance this weekend to trouble shoot a little more indepth. For now the sub just won't be hooked up.

              Have you made any changes to your Home theater from it's orginal configuration, (i.e. dimmers, surges, etc.)?
              As far as changes to my HT room, none have been done. I really only started hearing the noise when I picked up my Rotel 1095. But it was low enough that you had to be up near the speaker to hear it. Not to mention that the Paradigm PS1000 sub I had before in my old setup had no effect. I tried a new PS1000v4 before getting the PW2100 and both intro the noise.

              ht_addict

              Comment

              • jimmyp58
                Super Senior Member
                • Aug 2003
                • 1449

                #8
                Perhaps there's a common theme here, the RMB-1095. I have the same issue too but I only here the buzzing from my center channel speaker and I have to have my ear up against it to hear it. But I do hear it. And, like you, have the 1095. I moved some equipment around a couple of weeks ago and I began noticing it. First it was awful but then it improved. I followed the suggestion on this forum and separated my interconnects from power cords from speaker cables, etc. No luck! I am having an electrician install some dedicated circuits for my 1095 and my Bryston 14B SST this weekend to see if this helps (even if it doesn't it still is a good idea to do). If this doesn't work, my HT rep said he'd take a peek at my setup to see where the buzzing is coming from (actually before I separated the cords I disconnected everything and rebuilt from the beginning too). If this doesn't help, he'll give me a new 1095 to see if this works.

                Perhaps this is where you and I have the common problem --- the 1095. I'll let you know if the dedicated circuits work (hopefully) or not.

                Jim
                jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                Comment

                • LEVESQUE
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2002
                  • 344

                  #9
                  The problem is really the RMB-1095. I know. been there done that. Rotel did exchange it for a new one... same problem. It's humming like a frig.

                  I tried a dedicated 20A circuit, car-audio isolaters, aluminium foil on all the interconnects, ground-loop isolator... everything.

                  Then I did use a cheater-plug... The white noise was alot lowered (let say 50% less). Then I did use the balanced XLR inputs (don't ask my why, because i don't know), but then the problem was gone.

                  I just move in a new-house, and the same thing is happening again (brand new house, custom build, with REALLY precise grounding scheme, no ground loop, dedicated circuit)... So I put the cheater plug on, and perfect silence... I put the cheater plug off, humming like a frig.

                  I don't know... really not an expert... but a Rotel tech did confirm to me that it's probably a internal grounding problem in the 1095, or that I'm just plainly unlucky...
                  To spend more $$$ on electronics without first addressing room acoustics is fruitless IMO.

                  Comment

                  • ht_addict
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2002
                    • 508

                    #10
                    Whats got me really perplexed is the hum/buzz wasn't that bad with the 1095 and my old setup and none existant with my Rotel RMB-1066. And I did have a Paradigm PS-1000v2 hooked to my prepro. Now with the new PW2100 the hum/buzz is LOUD enough to be heard upstairs. Even tried it with a PS-1000v4 before I took it back for the 2100, so the amps can be ruled out as faulty. Wish I could use the balanced inputs on the 1095 unfortunately my pre/pro doesn't offer it.

                    ht_addict

                    Comment

                    • ht_addict
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2002
                      • 508

                      #11
                      If anyone can explain why my solution is working I'd like know. I went throught the process of disconnecting everything and reconnecting one by one. But as soon as I added that first cable from the pre/pro to amp the buzz happened. So I thought to myself what can I do to my pre/pro or amp to maybe ground them better.

                      Solution:

                      I ran some tv coax cable from the back of my pre/pro to my surge protector. Buzz is GONE. Now I'm back to the original 1095 ear up against the speaker buzz arty: :banana: I get to keep my new Paradigm PW-2100 sub.

                      ht_addict :righton: :clap: opcorn:

                      Comment

                      • Lex
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Apr 2001
                        • 27461

                        #12
                        Excellente'!

                        Lex
                        Doug
                        "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                        Comment

                        • jimmyp58
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Aug 2003
                          • 1449

                          #13
                          I am happy for you ht but I wish I could say the same for me. My electrician installed four dedicated isolated 20 amp circuits yesterday and when he was done, I plugged my 1095 into one of them and my Bryston 14B SST into another and the noise was WORSE than ever! Recall that my Bryston is powering my fronts and my 1095 is powering my center and rear surrounds (5.1). Note that I took off the cheater plug from the 1095 before I plugged it in to it's dedicated circuit. The buzz is ONLY from the center and surrounds and not my fronts. I put the cheater plug back on and the buzz is gone.

                          My electrician says I shouldn't have to do this now and that he thinks there is an internal grounding problem with the 1095. I got in touch with my ht guy right away and he said I shouldn't worry about it and just keep using the cheater plug. What's a guy to do?

                          I read from levesque earlier that he switched to balanced interconnects and for a time, this solved the problem (it came back though when he moved). He has an Anthem AVM-20 pre-pro which has balanced (XLR) outs whereas I have an RSP-1098 which only has unbalanced (RCA) outs; the 1095 has both balanced and unbalanced ins. I see that there are some manufacturers of interconnects that offer a balanced (XLR) on one end and an unbalanced (RCA) on the other end. Do you think I should try this (the fact that you don't have both ends balanced I would imagine the interconnect is not completely balanced then (? --- I don't know anything about this other than XLR is supposed to cut down on noise))?

                          Here's something else I thought about as I retrace my steps from when this started. When I got my 1095, I used it to power my fronts, center and rear surrounds. I bought my Bryston 4B SST (then) and moved equipment around and that is when the problem started. Could it be that I have two interconnect ins on my 1095 that are open because I switched the fronts over to the Bryston and that is causing a grounding problem? I could simply interconnect these two open ins on the 1095 to the outs on the 1098's "center back" outs --- I just won't define that I have center back speakers in the speaker setup menu.

                          Let me know what you think. I'd hate to think a $0.69 gadget is the solution to a $2,000 amplifier's noise problem. My electrician tells me the use of a cheater plug can be dangerous too.

                          Jim
                          jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                          Comment

                          • LEVESQUE
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2002
                            • 344

                            #14
                            Hello Jimmy. How's the 14BSST doing? (shivering and drooling all over my keyboard just writing that name... I'm jealous! ).

                            Just a precision.

                            The only way to solve the problem in my 2 houses, is to use the combination of both the cheater plug and the balanced XLR connection. One of both alone only solve the problem partially :?: Only the combination of both gives me complete silence, no hiss no humm... Don't ask me why, I'm not an electrician, so I don't understand why.

                            My Bryston is dead silent in any configuration. I did ask a tech from Rotel why the Bryston is silent and the Rotel is humming, and he did told me it's only a matter of the configuration of the internal grounding that is not implemented the same way.

                            If you don't touch the RMB-1095 when there is a thunderstorm, and you don't touch it with both feet in water 8O , you should be ok... I use a 12v trigger to open and close it, so I never touch it. Maybe I'm wrong, and I really hope an electrician could chime in here and help us.

                            But there is alot of debates on the cheater plug on the net. Some are strongly against it, while others are using it w/o remorse. Some sub companies are even including a cheater plug with their sub... :roll:

                            BTW, if you read around, you will see that alot of RMB-1095 owners are having the same noise problem. I think it all depends on the electrical system of your house, humming devices in the house (a waTer fountain was giving me the same noise problem...), dimmers, etc... We are not alone in that boat.

                            The cheater plug is a choice to make... you feel confortable with it or not...
                            To spend more $$$ on electronics without first addressing room acoustics is fruitless IMO.

                            Comment

                            • brucek
                              HTG Expert
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 303

                              #15
                              The cheater plug is a choice to make... you feel confortable with it or not...
                              Generally, 'cheater' adapters are a bad idea and I wouldn't recommend them.

                              The "third prong" on an AC plug is the electrical safety ground and is there to protect you and anyone who uses your equipment from electrocution. It's about that simple. The safety ground is a cold conductor designed to provide a path back to ground for safety protection against internal shorts inside your equipment when equipped with the three prong plug.

                              The third prong connects back to your service panel (where it is bonded to the neutral wire), and from there is connected to (either or both) your house plumbing or external ground rod.

                              On equipment with a third prong, its metal case and external metal parts are all connected to this safety ground when you plug the electrical cord into the wall. So, if a component fails inside a piece of equipment and the 120 volts shorts to the equipments case, then that case is now live and can electrocute you. If the safety ground is attached, then a breaker would trip to indicate you had a fault. With no alternate path to ground, the case remains live until someone touches it and then their body becomes a path if they contact another ground point.

                              Often there isn't a 'dead' short to case ground in the equipment, but simply a leak. The safety ground ensures the case potential remains at zero. If the safety is cheated, you may not be electrocuted, but you get that funny buzz feeling when you touch the case. Tells you there's a real problem inside..have it fixed.

                              On equipment with two prong plugs, they are internally insulated from the external case to provide this protection without the third wire.

                              Eliminating the safety on your entire system is not a good idea. There are those that rely on the fact that a connection is provided through interconnect shields, and so they remove their safety grounds on all connected equipment except for one. This surely solves ground loop problems, and works as long as all the interconnects remain in place, but it is dangerous. It's very easy to forget that you're relying on interconnects as your safety.

                              Usually bringing another ground from a cable system etc, can cause some hum in A/V equipment, but this can be corrected with a little work. Ground loops caused by cable TV are the easiest to get rid of.

                              If you have a hum from an amplifier caused by a ground loop, then removing the safety ground connection to the amplifier (and perhaps other devices as well), can clear the resultant effect of the ground loop, but creates the safety issue. It's more advisable to try and clear the condition causing the ground loop than to mask its effect by applying unsafe practices.

                              In that regard, ground loops are sometimes a difficult task to track down and remove because there are a million reasons for them to exist. The loop is caused by a difference in the ground potentials in your system. Breaking the safety ground almost as often clears the problem, and that is why it goes away with the use of two prong power cords or with the use of cheater plugs. This easy fix is obviously tempting, since it's so easy. I hesitate to say that sometimes it's the only thing in the end that works on some troublesome equipment, ensuring that 'cheated' piece of equipment is hidden away from anyone touching it.

                              Generally a ground loop can be tracked down to its source. Removing the problem can sometimes be a little more difficult.
                              You have to first ensure you have a ground loop situation by completely removing the offending amp and while using its proper three prong power cord, disconnect everything but its speakers and see if it still hums. If it does - you don't have a ground loop - fix the amp.

                              Another one of the other major culprits in creating ground loops is the use of more than one circuit in an HT system. The larger systems demand more power, so several dedicated circuits are sometimes needed. But even using a single circuit with different receptacles can cause a ground loop if the receptacles are physically far apart.

                              Residential houses use 240 volt "single phase" three wire power. The two "hot" legs are 120 volts and are 180 degrees out of phase. The loads in your house are balanced between these two legs at the service panel. It is advisable, if you do have two circuits powering your HT system, to ensure you are using a common leg. It is fairly easy to establish this.

                              Let me explain a bit about ground loops.......Even though the safety ground is a cold conductor, it can, and usually does, develop a small potential, through mutual inductance, wire resistance and various other reasons that can be different at each receptacle in your house.

                              When I plug a power amp into one receptacle and a preamp into another receptacle, the metal cases of these two units can have a small potential difference in their safety grounds which means that these equipment's metal cases are at a slightly different potential. When I connect a single ended (RCA) cable between these two devices, a small AC current can flow in the shield because of the potential difference. This signal is in the audio signal loop circuit and can cause a hum. An interconnect circuit has a loop path (completed circuit) that flows through the centre conductor of the interconnect cable and back on the shield. If there is an AC signal on the shield flowing because of the ground difference potential, you'll hear a hum. Breaking the safety ground of one of the two devices removes the potential and the path for the unwanted signal flow...

                              Exactly the same situation can occur, except usually worse, when you introduce a new ground into the system from cable TV or a satellite. Their ground on the shield may possess a different potential than the ground in your system and current will flow in all the interconnects. Usually by centralizing and bonding all external grounds to the common house ground you're at least giving yourself the best chance of reducing this problem....

                              Adding dedicated circuits can sometimes help ground loop problems. The benefits of a dedicated circuit are many. I highly recommend it.

                              There's nothing magic about dedicated circuits. It just ensures a single run from your power panel to a wall receptacle, with no interconnections between and nothing else plugged into the circuit except your system.

                              The receptacles in your room at present may have up to 12 lights and receptacles on the same circuit. At each receptacle that the wiring runs through, there is a set of twisted connections inside covered with marrettes that may be presenting a small resistance. The more of these connections, the more possibilities of poor, high resistive joints before the circuit reaches the receptacle that you are using.
                              In addition there can be a myriad of things like motors, fluorescent lamps, and computers that may also be plugged into this same circuit besides your HT electronics. All this can result in a loss of power and increased noise at the receptacle you're using for your system.

                              There's also a large possibility that if you are now using more than one receptacle, that they may be on a different leg of the loadcenter.
                              That's a sure recipe for problems of ground loops and other interference. Anyway, this is why it's agood idea to install one or two dedicated circuits direct from the power panel to behind their system.

                              When you use a dedicated circuit, and noise is introduced on a different circuit in the house, even though they return to a common point at the loadcentre, there is a high noise rejection factor, so this noise tends not to travel down your dedicated circuit because of the extremely low source impedance of the mains at the panel. It acts like a pass filter to this induced noise.

                              When you use two dedicated circuits you do have the added possibility of ground loops. The best solution for this is to run the two circuits together so they are identical lengths and paths traveled. This helps to ensure the potential of the safety grounds are at the same potential.

                              Anyway, my point is that cheaters are not a great idea in most cases..... This easy fix is obviously tempting, since it's so easy, but it's extremely dangerous and not recommended unless you enjoy getting a shock.

                              brucek

                              Comment

                              • LEVESQUE
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2002
                                • 344

                                #16
                                Wow! Brucek, what a post. Thank you for all those informations.

                                But I did try everything. You can't imagine. Even had 2 electricians friends at the same time a full day in my house.... We did try everything. Have you ever seen a complete system with 50 cables all wrapped-up in aluminium foil? My father was there and asked me if I was starting my christmas tree earlier that year...

                                Dedicated 20A circuits. Car audio isolator between pre/pro and the RMB-1095, ground-loop isolator, redone ALL the grounding of the house, transfo evaluation from the electricity company, cable company, removed all dimmers, etc. The white noise is always there.

                                So what a man is suppose to do after all this? I did invest over 8 or 9 hours trying to solve this. And when I did put the cheater plug in, problem gone...

                                But can you tell me why then, some sub companies are including a cheater plug in the package if it's so dangerous. I completely agree with you on the danger associated with a cheater plug. But why do does companies include one with their sub?

                                Mind bugging question!
                                To spend more $$$ on electronics without first addressing room acoustics is fruitless IMO.

                                Comment

                                • ThomasW
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 10934

                                  #17
                                  The use of cheater plugs is not an inherently 'extremely dangerous' situation. If it were, companies like Krell wouldn't include them with their amps, and one wouldn't be able to walk into any local hardware store and buy them, (imagine what a field day the personal injury lawyers would have)

                                  I pointed this post out to our resident electrical grand poobah Jon. He'll drop by later today and post to this thread.




                                  theAudioWorx
                                  Klone-Audio

                                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                  Comment

                                  • Lex
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Apr 2001
                                    • 27461

                                    #18
                                    Bruce, great post.

                                    Thomas, Bruce is an electrical expert. He's even got the title to match. Jon's comments are certainly welcome as well though.

                                    I imagine that sub makers are counting on you not touching the internal electrical is why so many include cheater plugs. I know Klipsh did on my KSW-200. Ironically, it was needed on that sub. Perhaps inferior electrical designs to begin with so they know you are gonna almost have to have it?

                                    Lex
                                    Doug
                                    "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                    Comment

                                    • ht_addict
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Dec 2002
                                      • 508

                                      #19
                                      Just a precision.

                                      The only way to solve the problem in my 2 houses, is to use the combination of both the cheater plug and the balanced XLR connection. One of both alone only solve the problem partially :?: Only the combination of both gives me complete silence, no hiss no humm... Don't ask me why, I'm not an electrician, so I don't understand why.
                                      Levesque, have you tried what I did? I noticed your AVM20 has a FM cable hookup. Try running tv cable from the wall to a splitter to a surge protector and then to your pre and see. You never know.

                                      ht_addict

                                      Comment

                                      • jimmyp58
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Aug 2003
                                        • 1449

                                        #20
                                        Bruce:

                                        Thanks for the awesome input. Much appreciated.

                                        I worked on this until ~ 11:30 p.m. last night and in the end, I did what you suggested. I disconnected everything from my system and left the Rotel RMB-1095 connected only to my speakers; I took the cheater plug off too. The buzz was incredibly loud. I had it plugged into on of my dedicated isolated circuits. I plugged it into another of my dedicated circuits. Buzz still there. I plugged it into the next two and the same thing. I got an extension cord and plugged it into three other outlets in my house --- same thing.

                                        I am pretty well convinced from what you wrote and what my electrician said, there is something wrong with the amp itself and the cheater plug is basically masquerading the problem and providing a bandaid solution. I think it is time for my ht guy to order me a new one and ship mine back to Rotel. I have suggested that just to be sure, he let me use his 1095 demo to see if this is really the culprit (I know it is anyway).

                                        Thanks again Bruce (and everyone else for the input on this thread). I'll let you know what happens when I get the demo and/or my new 1095.

                                        Jim
                                        jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                        Comment

                                        • LEVESQUE
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Oct 2002
                                          • 344

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by jimmyp58
                                          Bruce:
                                          I disconnected everything from my system and left the Rotel RMB-1095 connected only to my speakers; I took the cheater plug off too. The buzz was incredibly loud. I had it plugged into on of my dedicated isolated circuits. I plugged it into another of my dedicated circuits. Buzz still there. I plugged it into the next two and the same thing. I got an extension cord and plugged it into three other outlets in my house --- same thing.

                                          Jim
                                          Jim. I wish you good luck. I did exactly the same thing and trials. I did exchange this 1 ton beast (my back still hurt) and the 2nd one is doing it again, even with NOTHING except the speaker plug in (nothing in the ''in'' plugs of the RMB-1095)... Imagine, nothing, no source, not a cable plug in except the cables out to the speakers... And buzzing like hell... Did try different outlets in the house, different power cord, extension cords... nothing works...

                                          Do you think I should try a 3rd one? No. So I'm keeping the cheater plug. 8O

                                          Good luck my friend and keep me update!
                                          To spend more $$$ on electronics without first addressing room acoustics is fruitless IMO.

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15261

                                            #22
                                            Hmmm, this really does sound like an internal design/construction problem with these Rotel units, if with just the internal amplifier and no signal inputs you're getting this buzz when not using a ground lift.

                                            Internal grounding on a complex piece of gear with multiple power supplies can take be a problem if the correct principles aren't adhered to with respect to isolation of power grounds and signal grounds. It's the harmonics from the peak diode rectification that create the buzz, and relatively high peak currents in the power ground. These symptoms make me wonder if there isn't possibly an improper assembly or design for the Rotel, and somewhere a signal or internal power ground is getting connected to the chassis where it shouldn't be. Normallly, the chassis should only be a safety ground, though in some cases it's also used for EMI shielding and prevention of power amplifier oscillations (high feedback circuits can capcitively couple the output dv/dt into heatsinks, so some manufacturers ground them to the chassis- OK, unless you develop a high pot failure).

                                            There are other safer ways to provide symptomatic relief that may work; such as an isolated balanced power unit; but why should the user need to provide a bandaid that costs a significant fraction of the price of the attached equipment?

                                            Brucek did a very comprehensive response; while using a cheater plug is a good temporary fix, there are liabilities to that approach; I prefer to look at them more as diagnostic tools.

                                            In recording studios, it's not uncommon to have gear with ground lift connectors between the signal ground and the chassis ground; but then all the chasis grounds are usually wired to a common point, which is then returned to the main safety ground. This is a bit different from relying on interconnects to make your safety ground!

                                            Regards,

                                            Jon




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