Sonic Holograph(y)?

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  • Rock Dog
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Jan 2003
    • 417

    Sonic Holograph(y)?

    Any of you folks have any experience with this (once touted, and still in some circles) circuitry/application that was some kind of "Reflection Deflection and/or Deadening) apparatus?

    Carver used to put this feature into many of his top end receivers, integrated amps, and preamps. Who also sold a unit that was a “tape loop” device, if you will.

    It was meant to open the soundstage and image substantially, within a 2-channel system.

    What are your thoughts?

    I still have the Carver C-9 Sonic Holograph Generator (the standalone tape loop type) piece. I am wondering who has experienced it, and if there night still be a market for it. I know they show up on Ebay every now and again. And were big with the 2-channel, turntable crowd for quite some time.




    -Thomas-

    The easiest way to find something lost around the house, is to buy a replacement.

    Hey You! Make sure you stop by the HTguide Off-Topic section. It's FUN!!!

    -Thomas-

    As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it.

    Hey You! Make sure you stop by the HTguide After Midnight section. It's FUN!!!
  • RogueAngel
    Member
    • Jun 2002
    • 69

    #2
    Yup, I owned a C-4000 pre-amp from when they were first for sale in 80 or 81 until I sold it earlier this year. My experience with the holography feature was variable but mostly I did not like it. I think the room needed to be nearly perfect to get the benefit, and when it wasn't perfect.... the sound really suffered. I did have it set up perfectly a few times and yes, you could definitely hear a sound field that extended beyond the walls and in a 180 degree arc. Amazing when it worked, but I would not go back to it.

    I finally wound up using it as a phono pre-amp when I got my RSX-1055. I shortly thereafter replaced it with the Rotel phono pre-amp..... a MAJOR upgrade.

    Comment

    • Danbry39
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Sep 2002
      • 1584

      #3

      My Rock Dog image.

      I don't know if I had the exact same thing, but I do recall having a receiver that was advertised to do pretty much the same thing. Can't for the life of me remember which receiver that was, partially because I disliked it so much that I never used it, beyond listening because of its novelty. Sounded very artificial and over exagerated certain sounds, rather than truly diffusing them in a neutral, natural way.

      What I had probably wasn't as good as what was being used with the Carvers though.




      Keith
      Keith

      Comment

      • Chris D
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Dec 2000
        • 16877

        #4
        Rock Dog, is that a dude with a record behind his head, or with a huge afro?




        CHRIS
        Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"
        CHRIS

        Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
        - Pleasantville

        Comment

        • David Meek
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2000
          • 8938

          #5
          With my new bionic left eye, I can say conclusively that it's an afro! Or maybe, an album with bumpy edges? :B

          Back OT: I've never used any of Carver sonic holography products so I can't comment further on that. But it's interesting how these things go in cycles. I remember the "sonic holography" brouhaha when Carver first announced the technology. People were lauding it as the next great thing as far as "hearing the music" properly, while others were booing and hissing from the "it's just another form of distortion" camp.

          Now we have things like the Tact Room Correction pre-amps that are again touted as the next great thing for "hearing the music" properly, although there does seem to be less booing and hissing from the other side.




          David - HTGuide flunky
          Our "Theater"
          Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

          .

          David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

          Comment

          • Burke Strickland
            Moderator
            • Sep 2001
            • 3161

            #6
            I still have a Carver C-4000 preamplifier with Sonic Holography and a suite of noise reduction features aimed primarily at vinyl playback. The Sonic Holography (SH) feature was finicky to set up, but when it was working properly, it really seemed to "open up" the sound field. Instead of a row of instruments sounding like it was strung between the speaker boxes, SH seemed to sweep away the room boundaries and threw the images of the instruments way beyond the confines of the speakers themselves.

            Perhaps it was that early exposure to these kinds of effects that made me more amenable to listening to Definitive Technology's bipolar towers in the mid-90s. But frankly, the Maggie's sound has both of those trumped for realism of soundstage and "openness" of sound. Sonic Holography was kind of a psychoacoustic trick to escape the boundaries of the boxes. Magnepan did away with the boxes.

            When I use the Carver these days, it is strictly for its vinyl playback capabilities (SH turned OFF). Although my main turntable feeds a Lehmann Black Cube connected to my pre/pro, my secondary table is still connected to the Carver, which would get more use if it had a remote control. In fact, I would likely still be using it exclusively for stereo music and the pre/pro section of my trusty not-quite-as-old Yamaha DSP-3090 for movie playback instead of having moved up to a new pre/pro if the Carver had a remote.

            Burke

            What you DON'T say may be held against you...

            Comment

            • Rock Dog
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Jan 2003
              • 417

              #7
              Originally posted by Chris D
              Rock Dog, is that a dude with a record behind his head, or with a huge afro?
              A FRO. As in "Back in the day of turntables"
              Originally posted by Chris D
              Rock Dog, is that a dude with a record behind his head, or with a huge afro?
              A FRO. As in "Back in the day of turntables"




              -Thomas-

              The easiest way to find something lost around the house, is to buy a replacement.

              Hey You! Make sure you stop by the HTguide Off-Topic section. It's FUN!!!

              Last edited by Chris D; 21 July 2015, 22:55 Tuesday.
              -Thomas-

              As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it.

              Hey You! Make sure you stop by the HTguide After Midnight section. It's FUN!!!

              Comment

              • Robbie
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2000
                • 256

                #8
                I always figured the Carver Sonic Holography was just a fancy reverb. Am I correct in that assumption. I never had any Carver gear but sure wanted some at the time. I had a reverb in my old and I mean old system (circa 1977) and it performed the same thing. Opened up the soundstage. Actually I enjoyed the sound with it in the system. When I would set it to bypass the music would sound flat and lifeless.

                Robbie

                Comment

                • Rock Dog
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Jan 2003
                  • 417

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Robbie
                  I always figured the Carver Sonic Holography was just a fancy reverb. Am I correct in that assumption. I never had any Carver gear but sure wanted some at the time. I had a reverb in my old and I mean old system (circa 1977) and it performed the same thing. Opened up the soundstage. Actually I enjoyed the sound with it in the system. When I would set it to bypass the music would sound flat and lifeless.

                  Robbie
                  I think it was a little more than a "reverb" I think it was one of the first "Wave Cancellation" ideas ever implemented for public purchase.

                  If the speakers we're setup perfectly. (And you had to have a significant room for doing this) Because it required your speakers to be moved far away from the back and side walls, as I remember. The SH circuit would produce an identical signal, milliseconds behind the original. The idea was to cancel out the first or maybe second order reflection.

                  Of course I may be talking out of my ass, because I do not the manual in front of me. But that's basically what the circuit did. It was found in Carver’s receivers and integrated amps. Or you could buy the C-9 (which I have) that allowed you to hook it into any two-channel system.

                  I found it to work very well. But again, you had to be able to set it up perfectly. Which usually meant trampling all over the "Spouse Approval Factor" or SAF.

                  But I was not married, and had a separate bedroom as my listening room.




                  -Thomas-

                  The easiest way to find something lost around the house, is to buy a replacement.

                  Hey You! Make sure you stop by the HTguide Off-Topic section. It's FUN!!!

                  -Thomas-

                  As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it.

                  Hey You! Make sure you stop by the HTguide After Midnight section. It's FUN!!!

                  Comment

                  • Rock Dog
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Jan 2003
                    • 417

                    #10
                    Sorry, I've been getting duplicate post for about a moth now. Someone can delete this one.




                    -Thomas-

                    The easiest way to find something lost around the house, is to buy a replacement.

                    Hey You! Make sure you stop by the HTguide Off-Topic section. It's FUN!!!

                    -Thomas-

                    As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it.

                    Hey You! Make sure you stop by the HTguide After Midnight section. It's FUN!!!

                    Comment

                    • Robbie
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 256

                      #11
                      Hey Rock

                      Thanks for the explanation. As I said I always assumed :huh: it was just a fancy reverb. I used to :drool: over said receivers back in the old days. Just out of the WAF price range.

                      Robbie

                      Comment

                      • bionicjay
                        Junior Member
                        • Sep 2003
                        • 1

                        #12
                        if you grab any of the owners manuals from the sunfire website (sunfire.com) there's an excellent discription of how it works. I have teh sunfire ultimate receiver and i love the holo features on it.

                        Comment

                        • satfrat
                          Junior Member
                          • Oct 2003
                          • 1

                          #13
                          I`ve recently gotten Sunfire`s Theater Grand 3 processor and love the Holo feature, depending on how it`s used. For HT, I don`t like it at all. The Holo restricts the soundfield and minimizes the center channel dispersion. But for music, the Holo really shines. The highs are intensified and the soundfield tightened up, a real plus for my smallish 11' x 17' room. Sunfire finally got it right on this most recent model. Regards, Robin

                          Comment

                          • Burke Strickland
                            Moderator
                            • Sep 2001
                            • 3161

                            #14
                            The "real" implementation of "sonic holography" (lower case and no association with Bob Carver's patented and trademarked technology) is multi-channel SACD with material properly mixed to take advantage of that playback environment. (Primarily where the front speakers set the stage for the musical performance and the rear speakers provide performing hall ambiance.) At the demo presented jointly Richard Vandersteen and Robert Woods (Telarc) here in Houston a week ago Thursday, they encouraged us to move about the room rather than to stay seated in one spot to experience how there was a palpable sense of three dimensionality in the way the performers were arranged "on stage" and how they stayed "anchored in space" as you moved around the room.

                            Ironically, the "sweet spot" was the least impressive vantage for that aspect of the demo -- although the music sounded great played on the top rate system they had assembled, at that position, multi-channel didn't sound all that much different from two channel – perhaps a bit “richer”, but not enough to say “two channel is dead”. However, away from that spot, the difference was quite noticeable. People away from the sweet spot still get a terrific sonic treat with properly presented multi-channel SACD.

                            Actually, that didn’t apply with the selection where the instruments “ping-ponged” from front to back – that one left me unimpressed no matter where I sat. On the other hand, on the ones where the soundstage was up front as at most concerts and the rears provided hall ambience, the effect was sensational. The sense of space during the demo was uncanny -- and quite convincing. Close your eyes -- and you're "there".

                            Burke

                            What you DON'T say may be held against you...

                            Comment

                            • Dr C
                              Member
                              • Feb 2003
                              • 86

                              #15
                              Hi Burke - very interesting description of SACD. Did you have a similar experiencewith DVD-Audio ? My home does not have a separate HT area like some lucky folks so i'm resigned to having all my equiment in the living room ... and shackled by doors / windows / sofa placements etc. As a result, I just cannot get a good soundstage in 2 channel - and I believe that multi channel audio will be able to solve this. Whaddya guys say ?

                              Linked to the soundstage problem was uneven bass response and because my RPTV was fixed in 1 location, it wasn't practical to have subwoofers in odd places ... which is why I'm still considering getting a Behringer BFD. Not sure whether i should get this or the 2496 (Sonnie ?)

                              since we're on this sonic holography thingy ... anyone use BBE equipment ?

                              Dr C

                              Comment

                              • Blindamood
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2003
                                • 899

                                #16
                                Speaking of Carver technologies, anyone remember the DTL or "Digital Time Lens" feature on the Carver CD players? I just got my '86 vintage Carver DTL-200 out of its box the other day (have not used in years, due to newer DVD players) and hooked it up to my system. I've been experimenting a bit to decide whether it stands up to today's technology. So far, it sounds pretty good!

                                However, I'm not sure about the DTL feature. Apparently it 'strips out' unwanted frequencies and tries to correct errors in recording of early CDs. The funniest part was when I read the manual and it mentioned "some of the newer receivers and pre-pros that were starting to get CD-specific inputs, as opposed to using the AUX input... :LOL:
                                Brad

                                Comment

                                • dusty1usa
                                  Junior Member
                                  • Nov 2007
                                  • 1

                                  #17
                                  Here's the scoop on the Sonic Holography generator out of the Carver manual.
                                  I had the Carver M-500 amp with one of his preamp/tuner combos and a pair of Bose tower speakers that stood about 5' tall.
                                  Took some time to set the speakers to the optimum locations in my room but once it was done the sound was unbelievable. The instruments were locked in place in a 3-d soundfield that was pretty incredible.
                                  I've had people come over to visit and walk through the 'sweet spot' and stop dead in their tracks, jaw agape and demand to know just what the hell was going on that they could 'see' the guitar players way out passed the sides of the speakers and the drummer in the back with the singer/singers in their proper locations on the stage. Like they were right there in the room with you.
                                  Anyhow, here's the write up from the manual.

                                  Carver Sonic Hologram Generator: Model C-9

                                  “Anyone who has experienced a properly set up Sonic Hologram environment knows it is amazing and awesome!”

                                  As taken from Bob Carver's Literature:

                                  The Sonic Holographic Image is a unique process which enhances the three dimensional effects and realism of stereo sound. This is modeled from a design based on Bob Carvers legendary (and much sought after) Carver C-9.

                                  This circuit was designed to overcome a problem in obtaining accurate sound reproduction:

                                  In a stereo system, both ears will hear the output from both speakers. The left ear hears sound from the left speaker and from the right speaker. To see a problem with this, compare what happens when listening to a live musical performance:

                                  During a concert, each ear will receive one direct sound arrival. For example, a cymbal crashes; both your ears will hear it and the brain tells you accurately the position of the musician. In a stereo recording of the concert, this cymbal crash will be heard from both speakers. The left ear will hear the left speaker, which is fine, but it will also hear the crash from the right speaker. These extra sounds tend to confuse the sense of sound source location.

                                  The stereo effect in a good pair of head phones is enhanced because the left ear only hears the left head phone, and the right ear hears only the right headphone. There are no extra sound arrivals.

                                  To summarize:

                                  1. A real musical event will create only two direct sound arrivals, one at the left ear and one at the right.

                                  2. Stereo playback will give four arrivals, as both speakers are heard by each ear. These second sound arrivals reduce our naturally accurate sense of positioning.

                                  The Holographic Image circuit was designed to cancel out the unwanted second arrivals. The left ear will mainly hear the left speaker and the right ear mainly hears the right speaker. This is accomplished by sending a complex crosstalk signal from the left and right speakers in addition to the normal program. These extra signals are virtually identical to the unwanted second sound arrivals but they are out-of-phase with them and they cancel each other out.

                                  The result is a more three dimensional and wider soundstage, where the positioning clues are restored. In a way, the musicians have been freed from the confines of the flat plane between the speakers. You will perceive them as playing forward or playing behind the speakers or to one side or the other, not just somewhere in between. We recommend that you experiment with its effect, remember that you are listening for a more accurate sense of the location of the different musicians.

                                  Because the Holographic Image works by phase cancellation of the unwanted second sound arrivals, accurate speaker positioning is required. You must make sure that the left speaker is the same distance away from you as the right speaker. Follow the front speaker placement information as found in the owner’s manual to get the best results. This is the same as any standard stereo system, only with more care taken to position the left and right speakers accurately.

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