Sony SACD - Redbook to DSD?

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  • Jane Spellman
    Junior Member
    • Jul 2003
    • 2

    Sony SACD - Redbook to DSD?

    I recently bought a Sony 222ES SACD player. I think it sounds fantastic. The SACD sound goes without saying but what really surprises me is the redbook performance. I have read that some of the Sony SACD players automatically convert the redbook 16/44 to DSD. Is this true?

    Does this make it more cost effective in the DAC part? I think this player has the BB 1702 DAC.
  • Andrew Pratt
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 16507

    #2
    Jane Welcome to the HTGuide!

    As far as I know the sony's don't convert PCM to DSD but I guess its possible...though I'm not sure why they'd bother. Likely what you're hearing is the supperior BB DAC's in the CD player. The Sony ES machines tend to sound very good and they make one of the better transports as well which helps.




    Comment

    • David Meek
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2000
      • 8938

      #3
      Hi ya Jane. Welcome to The Guide!

      I don't believe the 222 converts PCM to DSD. Stereophile's January 2002 review of the 777 model has this to say:
      Since the XA777ES was originally announced, there have been rumors that it will up-sample and convert CD PCM data to DSD before D/A conversion (footnote 1). Sony's technical docs describe a process whereby 16-bit/1Fs PCM data are up-sampled to 24-bit/8Fs, then converted to 1-bit/64Fs, highly suggestive of such a conversion, but no explicit statement of DSD is made in this context. So, while some may wish to ascribe subjective results to an internal conversion of PCM to DSD, the situation isn't clear and performance at the analog output remains the only important issue.

      Footnote 1: I have also heard that the DAC in the XA777ES is the B-B PCM 1738. However, the chips are painted over and difficult to see on their vertical and stacked PC boards, so I cannot confirm this. If they are PCM 1738s, no conversion to DSD would be required since that chip can accept DSD and many forms of PCM directly.—Kalman Rubinson
      Can you see the chip label when you open up the 222?




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      • jaakan
        Member
        • Dec 2002
        • 98

        #4
        the 222ES can't have a PCM1702 because it is a 20-Bit and non-DSD
        My best guess is the DSD1793, there should be three of these chips.

        here is some info on my guess
        TI’s GD75232 is a 5-V multichannel 120kbps RS-232 line driver/receiver with +/-7.5V output & +/-1.5-kV ESD protection. Find parameters, ordering and quality information


        TI ( aka formally Burr Brown ) full list of audio DACs



        I hope these links work.

        Comment

        • Jane Spellman
          Junior Member
          • Jul 2003
          • 2

          #5
          What can I tell you other than when I remove the chassis cover and look on the audio board, there are several BB 1702 devices on this board. I counted at least 4 of them, small SMT parts. I don't know how the modders work on these boards, the traces are so tiny and everything is surface mount.

          Comment

          • David Meek
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 8938

            #6
            Digging further into TI's info on the 1702, here's what they have on it. I'll leave it to you EE-types to decipher. . . .
            PARAMETER NAME PCM1702

            Resolution (Bits) 20
            SNR (typ) (dB) 120
            Architecture Sign-Magnitude DAC
            Supply Voltage(s) (V) +/-5
            Pd (typ) (mW) 150
            Sampling Rate (max) (kHz) 768

            FEATURES

            ULTRA LOW _96dB max THD+N (No External Adjustment Required)
            NEAR-IDEAL LOW LEVEL OPERATION
            GLITCH-FREE OUTPUT
            120dB SNR TYP (A-Weight Method)
            INDUSTRY STD SERIAL INPUT FORMAT
            FAST (200ns) CURRENT OUTPUT: (±1.2mA)
            CAPABLE OF 16X OVERSAMPLING
            COMPLETE WITH REFERENCE
            LOW POWER (150mW typ)

            DESCRIPTION

            The PCM1702 is a precision 20-bit digital-to-analog converter with ultra-low distortion (-96dB typ with a full scale output). Incorporated into the PCM1702 is an advanced sign magnitude architecture that elimi-nates unwanted glitches and other nonlinearities around bipolar zero. The PCM1702 also features a very low noise (120dB typ SNR: A-weighted method) and fast settling current output (200ns typ, 1.2mA step) which is capable of 16X oversampling rates.

            Applications include very low distortion frequency synthesis and high-end consumer and professional digital audio applications.

            I don't know about you, but I'm still in the dark. :B




            David - HTGuide flunky
            Our "Theater"
            Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

            .

            David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

            Comment

            • jaakan
              Member
              • Dec 2002
              • 98

              #7
              Hmm, that would need a DSD to PCM converter/dsp chip or INTERFACE+ DSD DECODER IC. Should have "SA" or "dsd" "Sony" on the chip.

              1702 does have a high sample rate 768khz ( avg for DSD is like 2.8Mhz ) but no direct interface for a DSD decoder.

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15261

                #8
                Well, this does sound like Sony is going the same route as Pioneer, Marantz, Denon, and others in some of their less expensive players, and converting DSD to PCM for playback. Perhaps, if they're using four of them, their in use for the "seconadary" channels (multichannel SACD being six channels altogether.

                In their first generation players, like the SCD777ES, Sony did convert PCM to DSD, then use a common DSD DAC for all playback. There's an interesting white paper PDF on that, if anyone's really curious, I'll dig it up an post a link to it.

                Unfortunately, a lot of the reviews indicate that conversion from DSD to PCM isn't the best way to go with SACD. In some regards, I think it's that the inherent playback quality for a given material investment with a DSD DAC may be a bit better. Now, my favorite playback system at home right now is PCM, not DSD, but it really takes a lot of effort with the associated circuitry to reach that level of performance- the DAC chip itself is just one piece in the puzzle.

                If you want to get an idea of what I'm talking about, compare a pure PCM player with excellent circuitry like the Ayre CX7 to one of these multi-format SACD/DVD player on a good system.

                Best regards,

                Jon

                Regards,

                IN the




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