How do I bi wire

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  • edong
    Junior Member
    • Mar 2003
    • 12

    How do I bi wire

    Hi Guys. Can anyone show me how to bi-wire my DM 603 s2 to my Rotel RB 976? The manual doesn't show it clearly and i don't want to mess up. thanks in advance.
  • Andrew Pratt
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 16507

    #2
    Don't bother its not worth the cost. Bi amping on the other hand can help quite a bit. That said if you really want to try it simpy run two speaker wires for each speaker from the amp to the speaker and connect each set of wires to one of the binding posts on the speaker. There should be a metal plate connecting the two binding posts that needs to be removed before connecting the speaker wires otherwise you'll short out the amp.




    Comment

    • LAGiant
      Junior Member
      • Jun 2003
      • 2

      #3
      I couldn't disagree with Andrew any stronger, Bi-Wiring makes a huge difference. Here's why according to a cable manufacturer.

      There are many misconceptions about bi-wiring, and the question remains, does it really makes a difference at all? There is no test that we can perform to prove that it works other than listening. No one is really certain why it does make a difference, but this is a theory I share with others.
      Bi-wiring makes a difference because of the magnetic field interference created in a speaker cable, or really, the ability to minimize it. The signal transferred between an amplifier and a speaker is an electrical signal and all electrical signals create some form of a magnetic field. The magnetic field is actually varied by frequency. Bass signals are more powerful than treble signals and are carried by greater current inside a cable creating a larger magnetic field outside the cable. The magnetic field created by bass signals interferes or “chokes” the high and midrange frequencies distorting them. This is a major problem because most of any music signal (about 80%), including the human voice, which is one of the most difficult sounds for a speaker to reproduce, is located in the midrange. Bi-wiring minimizes the effect of magnetic field interference by providing isolated paths for both LF and HF. The result is the high and midrange frequencies don’t get interfered with from the large magnetic field created by the bass frequencies, improving performance (less distortion).
      An easy analogy is a swimmer trying to swim a straight line. Place the swimmer in an ocean and it’s almost impossible to swim a straight line because of the waves. The waves are interference or resistance to the swimmer. Place the same swimmer in a pool and it’s relatively easy to swim a straight line because the waves and the resistance are gone. The swimmer represents the high and midrange frequencies trying to move from the amplifier to the speakers and the waves in the ocean represent the magnetic field interference created from bass frequencies. Eliminate the magnetic field created by the current used to move bass frequencies and highs and midrange travel much easier with less distortion added to them (better sound).
      The most common and least expensive way to bi-wire a speaker is with a single bi-wire (SBW) speaker cable. This means all of the speaker cable conductors are located in the same jacket with 2 connections, 1 positive and 1 ground, at the amplifier end and 4 connections, 2 positives and 2 grounds, at the speaker end. All the conductors are still within close physical proximity to each other and are still susceptible to some magnetic field interference.
      The best way to bi-wire a speaker, and most preferred by audiophiles, is a double bi-wire (DBW). Double bi-wiring a speaker is simply two pairs of speaker cables run to one pair of speakers, dedicating a separate cable for HF and a separate cable for LF. The only area the two cables ever touch is at the output terminal of the amplifier. Since the HF and LF signals are completely isolated from each other, there’s no area for the magnetic field interference created by the bass signals to interfere with the high and midrange frequencies. The same could be said about the tweeter and mid/bass driver in 2-way speaker. Isolating the tweeter cable form the mid/bass driver will result in less distorted high frequencies.
      In most 3-way speakers, a loudspeaker's HF input is handling both the tweeter AND the midrange, and the LF input is handling only the woofer. The best results will be achieved with separate cables to the HF and LF inputs (DBW).
      Because the midrange handles the all-important frequencies that contain
      (almost) all the detail, it is desirable to use the best cable possible to
      the midrange.
      With a 2-way speaker the HF input is only handling the tweeter, which means the LF input is handling both bass and midrange. Therefore, the LF cable is also the midrange cable, and this cable must be able to handle the delicate midrange frequencies as well as the bass frequencies.
      If you’re customer is not going to bi-wire their B&W speakers, please remove (but save them) the bridge bars that connect the HF and LF positive and negative terminals and replace them with a short run of good copper or silver. There’s no need for a whole complicated speaker cable with ends on it. I’ll pick on us for a second; it’s the one area we got cheap with the thought that most people will just remove the bridge bars to bi-wire. The bridge bars we use are made of gold plated brass and unfortunately, hurt performance, as they are not as good a conductor as copper or silver would be (both cost more). It’s also a good idea to connect the speaker cable to the binding post on the speaker used by the midrange driver. That’s the HF input on a 3-way and the LF input on a 2-way.

      Comment

      • sounddog
        Junior Member
        • Feb 2003
        • 22

        #4
        Originally posted by LAGiant
        I couldn't disagree with Andrew any stronger, Bi-Wiring makes a huge difference. Here's why according to a cable manufacturer.
        The cynical reply to that is that of course a cable manufacturer would say bi-wiring makes a difference ... they want to sell double the amount of cable.

        A lot of people who say bi-wiring makes no difference do replace the little gold plated "shunts" with a piece of the same cable as they use for the mains and that is supposed to make a big difference.

        And of course bi-wiring does lead onto bi-amping which DOES make a big difference.

        Vikki

        Comment

        • greggz
          Senior Member
          • Jun 2002
          • 317

          #5
          If you are interested in learning more about bi-wiring, check out some of the work John Risch has done on the subject.

          Latest news coverage, email, free stock quotes, live scores and video are just the beginning. Discover more every day at Yahoo!

          Latest news coverage, email, free stock quotes, live scores and video are just the beginning. Discover more every day at Yahoo!


          He has also posted quite extensivley on this topic on AudioAsylum.com.

          For what it's worth, I have my B&W Nautilus speakers bi-wired (as per the mfg's recommendation). I perceive an improvement over just single wiring. In addition to bi-wiring, I followed John's tip to also jumper the hi and low grounds on the speaker together. That really tightened up my bass.




          Gregg
          Gregg

          Our Home Theater

          Comment

          • Andrew Pratt
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 16507

            #6
            With out this getting dragged into a cable war I don't see how the LF and HF are being seperated with Bi-wiring? The cables are both connected to the same amp channel which means both cables are being fed the same signal. Its the job of the cross over to filter out the unwanted freq's. I have heard differences in interconnects since those are low level signals the parameters of the cable do make a difference.

            this topic really should be moved to the Audio area though if we're going to get into a cable discussion though.




            Comment

            • greggz
              Senior Member
              • Jun 2002
              • 317

              #7
              I cannot make any intelligent arguement as to why it should or shouldn't work. I had a bunch of extra cable so I gave it a try and liked what I heard (or thought I heard). I guess I'm not a very good spokesman for the cause.




              Gregg
              Gregg

              Our Home Theater

              Comment

              • David Meek
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2000
                • 8938

                #8
                One other thing to consider about bi-wiring possobly making a difference in a speaker's sound: as I understand it, you are bypassing a (or the) cross-over when bi-wiring. Would this not have the mids/highs and bass cones each running a full-range (for each driver's specific freqs) signal and not rolling off any freqs as the cross-over would have them doing? This will definitely change the sound. Now, whether it's for better or worse is a whole other issue.

                FYI, I am currently bi-wiring my Aerials with dedicated MIT Terminator cables.

                Good posts! :T




                David - HTGuide flunky
                Our "Theater"
                Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

                .

                David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                Comment

                • edong
                  Junior Member
                  • Mar 2003
                  • 12

                  #9
                  Hey guys. I am merely trying to ask for help on how to hook up my speakers to the RB 976. If anyone who owns this amp would like to teach me how, please. I'd like to know where to set the switches at the back---stereo or link. Thanks again.

                  Comment

                  • David Meek
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 8938

                    #10
                    We sorta DID go off topic, didn't we? ops:

                    Your speakers must have 4 binding posts on each speaker to allow bi-wiring. Simply unscrew the binding posts enough to remove the jumper (a connector) between the two black posts and the jumper between the two red posts. Then, run two sets of speaker wire from the Rotel to each speaker. Hook the 4 individual strands to each speaker using the 4 binding posts, being sure that the same sides of the wire (white stripe, ridge, whatever) are connected to the same color binding posts. Then connect the two wires per speaker to the single binding posts on the Rotel - again making sure the colors correspond correctly. I'm not sure what the switch positions mean - I don't run a Rotel, sorry.

                    Hope this helps. Good luck!




                    David - HTGuide flunky
                    Our "Theater"
                    Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

                    .

                    David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                    Comment

                    • greggz
                      Senior Member
                      • Jun 2002
                      • 317

                      #11





                      Gregg
                      Gregg

                      Our Home Theater

                      Comment

                      • Lex
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Apr 2001
                        • 27461

                        #12
                        well, the whole question was how to bi-wire. I think that's been illustrated very well, thanks to Greggz in the sunny Atlanta burbs.

                        True it was off topic to discuss the virtues of bi-wiring. But I think it's a little late to stop that, huh? :LOL:

                        Bi-wiring imo is situational. some speakers can benefit from it. But of course, it can be electronics sensitive as well. A good alternative to bi-wiring is removing the connector plates and using quality wire jumpers. For example, your main speaker wires may connect to terminal A to the tweeters via spades. But then you have short wire jumpers that are banana, and connect from one terminal to the other, in the place of the factory plate style jumpers. That can improve the sound. In fact, I need to introduce jumpers sometime.

                        Lastly, I will say, that not all speakers are even designed for bi-wiring for a reason. Sonus faber has recently began designing speakers without the feature. Bottom line, if a speaker is optimized for non-biwiring, why put the terminals on there? So, they save the expense, and don't offer it. But the speaker is designed to perform well without it. I personally sort of disagree with total removal, since it takes bi-amping out as an option without major modifications. At least if they are there, you can take the crossover out of action and use the existing terminals for 2 way speakers. Of course, for 3 way, that would complicate it some.

                        But to remove a Sonus faber crossover would be to remove some of the magic, but that's another story.
                        Lex




                        Cable Guy DVD Collection
                        Doug
                        "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                        Comment

                        • RedStep
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2002
                          • 154

                          #13
                          Jimminey Crickett...Ya'll know how to STIR it up 8O
                          By lookin at the picture, he can figure it out now!!!
                          But, while I'm here, let me put in my two cents LA makes a good point, but in that theory you would have to use two seperate sets of cables. what about the single bi-wire cables, they must be usless, or the cables that claim to seperate the HF & LF in a single cable??? ANYWAY I have to agree with Andrew that it's still a full range signal going to those speakers.
                          WHEW...I'm glad I got that out.




                          RedStep
                          We are truly a product of the decisions we make
                          RedStep
                          We are truly a product of the decisions we make

                          Comment

                          • David R
                            Junior Member
                            • Mar 2003
                            • 3

                            #14
                            (did some editing after re-reading the John Risch stuff)

                            I'm not an EE, but I don't see how bi-wiring could make any significant difference or how it could be electronics dependant. Risch makes some interesting claims, but offers no data to back them up. Based on his docs, it should be easy to measure the difference at the terminals, or to stick a mic in front of the speakers and do the same. His ideas seem to be all theoretical.

                            Here's another way to think of it: for speakers with bi-wire terminals and straps, they are essentially bi-wired already - the wires are split at the first set of termnals where the cables connect. Why would this not yield the same effects of bi-wiring. Does it require a certain length of speaker cable to be effective?

                            btw, I asked Michael Kelly at Aerial about this, and he told there would be absolutely no advantage to bi-wiring his speakers. He includes bi-wire posts because people want them and expect them.

                            David

                            Comment

                            • brucek
                              HTG Expert
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 303

                              #15
                              edong,

                              You should be listening to what David R just wrote, he's telling you to stop buying into such a silly idea. Believe me, anyone with an electronics engineering background knows this is clever marketing to convince you to purchase more wire product. Its greatest power is that it plays on your conscience.

                              As far as bi-wiring is concerned, there is simply no scientific support (other than anecdotal evidence). I'll bet I could produce a believable treatise to convince you either way, but as it is, I'm going to let you in on a secret.

                              Bi-wiring is about as effective as trying to slow down your car by putting your hand out the window. I gotta think there are better ways to spend your money.

                              edong responds.............But my speakers are bi-wire ready, with two sets of terminals and the manufacturer recommends it for increased clarity...........

                              Well, of course the speaker manufacturer is recommending it. If everyone else in town was recommending it, wouldn't you? That's good business.

                              edong responds............But I just read that bi-wiring separates the LF (low frequency) and the HF (high frequency) signal currents and simply must make my speakers sound better, because now these signals won't interfere with each other, as happens when I use a single wire. I'm told bi-wiring allows the amplifier to "see" each driver as a separate unit, and certainly this claim has a good gut feel to it. To audiophiles, "isolation" has always been a central philosophy which relates to good sound!

                              Well, sorry, the reasoning is flawed. This is the pillar that bi-wire theories are built on and it just ain't so. Yep, you have indeed separated the HF and LF currents. Seems logical and everyone gets on board claiming how much clearer everything is now. But unfortunately, anyone who's even taken a first year engineering course in electronics knows that the claim is meaningless when you apply the Superposition Theorem and know that this is a linear system and all those signals can easily co-exist on a single wire quite nicely without interfering or modulating each other in any way. The claim of interference from some magnetic flux is silly. Superposition Theorem states this, and it is so. I'm afraid there is no disputing it - because if you were able to prove otherwise, it would change the world of electronics completely. The signals together create a complex waveform, which could be Fourier transformed into the original signals at any time. No interference on a single wire. This is a linear system, there is no modulation occurring. I can go into why, but I won't bother - it's really boring.

                              edong responds......... I've also read that bi-wiring helps because there's a possibility that one of the drivers in my speaker may distort, producing harmonic products, so the current flowing to the driver may possess a small distortion component and so linearity is no longer maintained. That component, flowing through the speaker cable, causes a distortion voltage that appears in series with the output of the amplifier. Now, if I don't bi-wire, and if I assume that the cable has a finite impedance, those harmonic components in the current will cause a small harmonic voltage between the amplifier's output and the speaker's input. So the tweeter will also see this small distortion voltage. When I biwire, the other driver will not see that distortion voltage, while on the contrary, if I use only one pair of cables, then that distortion voltage is presented to the other driver through the strap.

                              Well, now this idea has merit, but there are a couple of problems with it.
                              The rubric of this statement hangs on the calculated difference in the impedance between the speaker's straps and the impedance of one pair of the bi-wire cable. The assumption is that the speaker cable presents a non-zero impedance (which it does), and that the distortion can indeed reach and affect the other driver. Not likely. Consider the fact that a speakers common terminal "straps" are extremely close in impedance to the low impedance path through the bi-wires to the other driver in relation to the amplifiers output impedance. This is the difference you're considering. Yes, the currents to each driver are different in bi-wiring, but the voltage is the same because the amplifier is a near perfect voltage source - it has an extremely low output impedance. The distortion harmonics generated by each driver will be short-circuited by the low impedance output of the amplifier in either case, whether it travels through the strap back to the amplifier or through a single leg of the bi-wire to the amplifier.
                              Further consider that harmonics are second and third order effects, and realize that the harmonic would have to get through the other driver's crossover, which would be in a high impedance state to that harmonic frequency. Again remember that these calculations are to be performed on the 'difference' between the impedance of the speaker's straps and the impedance of one pair of the bi-wire cable. You better have your calculator set to many, many, many decimal places......

                              I'm afraid as far as bi-wiring is concerned (if you already are using it), you'd probably be better off using bi-wire cables with your speaker straps reinstalled. At least then you'd take advantage of the lower gauge realized by combining two cables to each speaker. It would certainly help the LF drivers damping path to ground through the amplifier output.

                              If you like bi-wire, then use it, no harm done......It's ineffective, others will disagree. As I said, it's about as effective as trying to slow down your car by putting your hand out the window. I suspect you could make the calculations on the effect, but why bother..................

                              In that regard, something that is probably more important, is that the impedance of the wire that connects from the amplifier to the drivers should be as low as possible. This can be accomplished by using a heavy gauge cable with a low inductance per foot value and keeping the distance short. This will reduce frequency distortion, and increase damping. Both can be put into a more acceptable range by using a heavy gauge wire with a low inductance per foot rating.

                              With regard to the gauge of the cable, if you are using two cables in a bi-wire fashion to your speakers, you can lower the resistance of the connection (for example) between the LF driver and the amplifier by putting the straps back in as I've suggested and the LF driver will now see a less resistive path back to the amplifier. This will increase system damping. Let me explain the benefit.

                              Damping generally effects the "tightness" of bass frequencies. The higher the number the better.
                              It's the amplifiers ability to control or damp the speakers voice coil oscillations. When a signal is sent to a speaker and then stopped, the speaker cone continues to move, and creates or presents a back voltage to the amplifier. If the output impedance of the amplifier combined with the impedance of the interconnecting speaker wires is very low (read a short) then this oscillation is damped and the bass sounds very tight. The higher this combined impedance, the more the speakers' voice coil will continue to move and effect the sound.

                              This of course is where the bass mushy-ness of tube amps comes from. Tube amps generally have an attribute unlike solid state amps that their output impedance is usually unacceptably high and is non-linear and rises as the frequency increases. You can see how this non-linearity, besides being a source of distortion (read "warm" sound) in the damping formula makes a tube amp pretty undesirable if you're looking for accuracy. But, some people like the sound of distortion, that's their business.

                              Anyway, damping factor is a ratio of the load impedance (generally considered a flat 8 ohms) to the output impedance of the amplifier. Very nice, but generally in practice though, you have to take into consideration the impedance of the wire connecting the two devices and the fact that speakers with passive crossovers are an extremely non-linear device. Again, the short answer is that the higher the number the better.

                              The fact is that in most solid state amplifiers the output impedance is fairly constant (read linear) and very, very low over the entire audio spectrum and as such can almost be ignored in the formula because the system impedance is overwhelmed by the non-linearity of the speakers crossover plus the interconnecting wire resistance. This is the reason to ignore small differences in amplifier specs of damping. It's usually insignificant in relation to the effect of the speaker wire.

                              edong, forget about bi-wiring. Get a high quality heavy gauge speaker cable and keep it as short as possible..............


                              brucek

                              Comment

                              • edong
                                Junior Member
                                • Mar 2003
                                • 12

                                #16
                                Thank you very much for taking time out to post such a long and informative reply to the subject. I guess nobody could dispute what you just wrote. I would have to hook them up and see what happens. I already got the wires because my old wharfedales were biwired before I bought my DM 603. It's just that Rotels have different configuration when used bridged. That's why I asked. Switches have to be set differently. Once again, thanks.

                                Comment

                                • Lex
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Apr 2001
                                  • 27461

                                  #17
                                  The bottom line guys, empirical data is not what we listen to. We listen to sound. Sometimes, things in audio can't be measured. Heck, they can't even be explained. To say there is no possible advantage bi-wiring with certain systems would be a gross overstatement. I tell people to listen and make their own judgements. In the end, it's what sounds best in your system that matters.

                                  I don't even like to build bi-wires particularly, so my advice is not based upon what I sell. It's based upon sound judgement and keeping an open mind. It doesn't matter to me if anyone has proved anything that helps my system. I really don't care and neither should you.

                                  I think this topic has been pretty well explored. I'll leave it open for now, but if it starts to turn ugly, I'll close it quicker than the law closes a chop shop.

                                  Lex
                                  Doug
                                  "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                  Comment

                                  • Rolyasm
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Dec 2004
                                    • 382

                                    #18
                                    Good thread. I have a question. You are all talking about bi-wiring with an amp. Is it possible to bi-wire with a receiver? Lets say for some stupid reason, like I am living in a rental right now and don't have any wall space behind me, that I can only use my fronts and side surrounds. Can I use the extra back channels to power my fronts (use my 7.1 receiver for 5.1, using the extra 2 channels on the mains)? If yes, I am guessing I will have to do some adjustment to my receiver so that my delays and such are not off. I have a Denon 3802 and unfortunately the manual is packed deep in storage. Anyway, just a thought. Thanks
                                    Roly

                                    Comment

                                    • Sim reality
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Aug 2005
                                      • 173

                                      #19
                                      Not sure if it violates the forum rules to post this, but audioholics has instructions to Bi-amp a Denon 3805... Might work for you:

                                      The Denon AVR-3805 is an impressive all-around receiver. With the ability to bi-amp the main channels, full customization over your speaker configuration, and more, this receiver is highly recommended

                                      Comment

                                      • Lex
                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                        • Apr 2001
                                        • 27461

                                        #20
                                        Well Sim reality, it's not so much the general site content as I dislike audioholics site due to how they've treated some cable companies in the past, among them Audioquest, this site management does not support audiohaulics for that reason-

                                        Bruce, please watch the totalitarian engineering approach that closes it's mind to the prospect that sometimes, things do work as designed - Don't get me wrong, I'd as soon sell a single set of wires as bi-wires myself as far as what I manufacture, but I do offer both. If someone believes it makes a difference in their system, I will leave that part to them. I'll make them a good value in bi-wires if that's what they want and leave the choice to them.
                                        Doug
                                        "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                        Comment

                                        • Rolyasm
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Dec 2004
                                          • 382

                                          #21
                                          Um, well I won't look at the site. But my 4 year old might happen to click the link when I am not looking. Or what if I swear only to buy cables from HT guide rececommends? Anyway, thanks.
                                          Roly

                                          Comment

                                          • Race Car Driver
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Mar 2005
                                            • 1537

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by brucek
                                            ....

                                            In that regard, something that is probably more important, is that the impedance of the wire that connects from the amplifier to the drivers should be as low as possible. This can be accomplished by using a heavy gauge cable with a low inductance per foot value and keeping the distance short. This will reduce frequency distortion, and increase damping. Both can be put into a more acceptable range by using a heavy gauge wire with a low inductance per foot rating.

                                            With regard to the gauge of the cable, if you are using two cables in a bi-wire fashion to your speakers, you can lower the resistance of the connection (for example) between the LF driver and the amplifier by putting the straps back in as I've suggested and the LF driver will now see a less resistive path back to the amplifier. This will increase system damping. Let me explain the benefit.

                                            Damping generally effects the "tightness" of bass frequencies. The higher the number the better.
                                            It's the amplifiers ability to control or damp the speakers voice coil oscillations. When a signal is sent to a speaker and then stopped, the speaker cone continues to move, and creates or presents a back voltage to the amplifier. If the output impedance of the amplifier combined with the impedance of the interconnecting speaker wires is very low (read a short) then this oscillation is damped and the bass sounds very tight. The higher this combined impedance, the more the speakers' voice coil will continue to move and effect the sound.

                                            ...
                                            brucek
                                            Those were always my thoughts on the whole subject. Almost picked the thoughts right out of my head and put them out for everyone to see.

                                            I never understood how typical bi-wiring could be an advantage.. other then you now have less resistance in you connection allowing the amp to control voice coil better..
                                            but wait... I thought that was the magnets job!? But we cant forget the surround.. hrmm and that damn spider. :lol:
                                            *shrug*
                                            B&W

                                            Comment

                                            • bigburner
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • May 2005
                                              • 2649

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Lex
                                              Sometimes, things in audio can't be measured. Heck, they can't even be explained.
                                              Let's call it intelligent audio design.

                                              Comment

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