turntable stabilty - swivel shelf? speaker vibrations?

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  • palmetto
    Member
    • Nov 2003
    • 36

    turntable stabilty - swivel shelf? speaker vibrations?

    i have a technics SL-1300 (1976 vintage) and will resurrect it for my new ht system. it weighs, maybe, 25 lbs. (?).

    i am building a very solid wooden wall unit, floor to ceiling, with 20" deep shelves. but many of the shelves are not high enough to handle the 6"-15" opening of the dust cover for the turntable.

    question: would using a swivel shelf to pull out from the wall unit add any negative effects, such as instability or lack of cartdridge balance for the turntable use? anything?

    also, i am putting my paradigm studio 40 speakers on the bookshelves in the wall unit. they are pretty big speakers. what about vibrations from the speakers affetcting the turntable?

    thanks!
  • Bam!
    Super Senior Member
    • Jan 2004
    • 2458

    #2
    Hey Palmetto!

    Well...how are you building this famous bookshelf?

    Also I think your speakers could sound a little "enclosed" and might get boomy in there.....

    Let`s hear how this furniture piece is put together....

    Take care!




    Bam!
    Got a nice rack to show me ?

    Comment

    • Burke Strickland
      Moderator
      • Sep 2001
      • 3161

      #3
      It's nice to have a unified "look" for your system that a well designed and built shelving system can give you. Not only looks good, but can be very convenient too. Based on previous experience where I did it "wrong", :>) be sure that you make provision to run the interconnects and power cords between shelf levels and have space in the back to conveniently plug in and unplug the various componenets.

      For example, leave enough "slack" cable when connecting components that you can easily pull each of them out far enough forward on the shelf to change connections without having to disconnect everything and fumble your way "in the dark" to get things put back together. :>)

      I think you've already identified the problems with a pivot (swivel) shelf. A "stand-alone" shelf attached securely to the wall and NOT as part of the "bookshelf" cabinet would be better than a swivel shelf for stability and to avoid vibration knocking the needle out of the groove. (Rega makes just such a shelf for its turntables.)

      If the shelf must be part of the overall bookshelf unit, then a stationary shelf with adequate vertcal clearance would the next best choice. Don't forget that you will probably also want someplace to put the album cover while you are monkying around with the turntable getting the music started. :>) So "doulbe wide" shelf big enough to hold the turntable and the album cover is good if you have the space.

      Another alternative to a swivel shelf might be one that extends forward on heavy duty suspension rails, like a drawer (where a rail-within-rail extends the shelf/drawer as it slides on ball bearings -- not the design that simply holds the shelf/drawer by a pin in a groove along the sides and "catches" at the back edge).

      As Bam! has already pointed out, having the speakers semi-enclosed isn't a good idea acoustcally. Also, incorporating the speakers into the wall mounted unit would pretty well guarantee vibration and/or feedback with the turnatable cartridge, and the speakers need room to "breath" to produce a good soundstage and "realistic" imaging -- placing them on their own separate floor stands away from the wall and not attached to the bookshelf unit will allow slight adjustments in their position that will ultimatley give you far better sound than if they are boxed into wall unit.

      Good luck --

      Burke

      What you DON'T say may be held against you...

      Comment

      • Bob
        Senior Member
        • Jul 2000
        • 802

        #4
        Palmetto,
        External vibrations are the bain of turntables. I'm being simplistic here but, basically the way music comes from a record is a very delicate interplay between the vinyl and the needle which is pretty much vibrations.
        While I'm dubious about the need to isolate digital components from vibrations, the idea of vibration control started with a very real need in regards to turntables. Personally, I feel that the companies that sell this stuff for digital gear came up with the products first and the research for its' "need" second. But, that is a whole other issue that the members of the forum can discuss.
        Back to turntable stability. In general, the less vibration the better for turntables. Many of the most expensive turntables have a large part of the expense tied into isolation control, Walker for example. Many people with turntables even put them in seperate rooms. Mine is along the side wall, sitting on a homemade isolation stand that has 50lbs of sand in each six inch square leg. On top of the legs is a sandbox filled with 300lbs of sand perfectly leveled. The legs themselves are attached to a one inch thick peice of MDF which sits on three heavy duty spikes that I had a friend machine that are designed so that I can level the whole deal with a wrench and digital level. I can jump up and down right next to the stand and nothing changes. I even put a glass of water on it as a test to see if it would vibrate when there was loud bass playing or if I jumped on the floor next to it.
        Now, like all things audio, how much effort you need to put into this is dependent on how revealing your system is and how "critical" your listening is.
        If it were me, rather than the swival shelf to accomadate the the dust cover I'd lose the dustcover. I have a very expensive analog system with a cartridge that costs as much as a good used car and I don't use a dust cover. If you do a quick search on the internet and look at analog systems only the least expensive ones have a dust cover, they simply aren't needed.

        Comment

        • palmetto
          Member
          • Nov 2003
          • 36

          #5
          AM I DOOMED? speaker vibrations and feedback. I suppose the vibrations mean skips on the record and feedback is obviously unacceptable. how likely is that?

          << Now, like all things audio, how much effort you need to put into this is dependent on how revealing your system is and how "critical" your listening is.

          I am not a seasoned audiophile but I have some aspirations. too bad, I already compromised my system by having a less than perfect room and now a wall unit to house everything except the subwoofer. but it is a quite solid wood structure that goes up to the 9 foot ceiling, with 20" deep shelves. it has plenty of space and channels for cables... but is it enough for isolation control?

          can I rest a turntable on one lone shelf? it seems that a swivel shelf or the preferred heavy duty suspension rails may not be sufficient if they are resting on a shelf that is connected to the unit that the speakers are also on.

          the turntable can go on the shelf either directly above the right front speaker or two small shelves below the right speaker. I know that the speakers ought to be on stands on front of the unit, and maybe one day they will. but not now.

          what about products sold as cushions or stabilizers for the turntable. I’ve seen pins and pads????

          finally -- the turntable? is it just unnecessary or does it also hurt performance?

          can i just proceed as if it will work without unacepatbale vibrations and feedback, and deal with with it afterwards IF NECESSARY? such as by putting the turntable on a separate stand next to the wall unit.

          thanks for your advice.

          Comment

          • palmetto
            Member
            • Nov 2003
            • 36

            #6
            correction to above...

            finally -- the turntable DUSTCOVER., i meant to write.

            Comment

            • Bob
              Senior Member
              • Jul 2000
              • 802

              #7
              The dust cover isn't necessary. As far as it hurting performance goes, it is only a matter of time before you drop it making the needle skip and scratch your record, otherwise it isn't a problem. I bought a inexpensive Denon turntable that I take with me when I work out of town and it has a dust cover that I have never bothered to remove but, find it is a nuiscence and I did scratch one record because of it.
              I doubt that you need to worry about any record skipping because you put your turntable in the wall unit with your speaker. Audio perfection is somewhat similar to auto perfection, the more high end the audio gear or auto the more sensitive it is to minor changes in tuning. You have a solid system that will keep on working no matter what the environment and probably wouldn't change much with minor tweaks, or even major ones. Sort of like a mid priced Toyota, gets you were you want to go, reliable, not sensitive to fuel octane or tire treads.
              Don't sweat the vibrations. Isolation would come after perfect speaker placement, the best room acoustics you can acheive, and proper cartridge set up.

              Comment

              • David Meek
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2000
                • 8938

                #8
                Myles, what type of floor is this all going to be resting on? Pier & Beam with joists or a concrete slab? If it's a slab, the vibrations probably won't be serious enough for casual TT listening. Placing an isolation-type platform on the shelf and then setting the TT on it, will be of benefit. If it's a P&B/joist design, then you may easily have enough transferance of vibration from footfalls or kids rolling around or. . . that will cause skipping. If so, it'll require a more serious effort to get the TT isolated.




                David - HTGuide flunky
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                Comment

                • palmetto
                  Member
                  • Nov 2003
                  • 36

                  #9
                  << Myles, what type of floor is this all going to be resting on?

                  My new home is 2 stories with concrete based construction. I believe the 2nd floor, which is where my HT will be, is a concrete slab covered with a wood floor, not too much furniture and a 8’x10’ rug. There are no children around to stomp on the floor.

                  I could do the tests first, but I am open to low cost solutions but nothing as “heavy-handed” as Bob’s 300-pound sand-box. What about low cost solutions such as Big Rock isolation bases ($150?), the IsoRock 5 ($59), Sorbo Gel, Myrtlewood Blocks and IsoBlocks ($20 for 4)?

                  Comment

                  • palmetto
                    Member
                    • Nov 2003
                    • 36

                    #10
                    more info on the house construction -- the second floor is not constructed in concrete. rather, it is a wood floor covered with two layers of plywood and then with the final, stained wood floor on top of that. so it is pretty solid.

                    Comment

                    • David Meek
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 8938

                      #11
                      I'd definitely look at the Big Rock isolation base. I've heard good things about them - although I've never used one personally.




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                      Comment

                      • palmetto
                        Member
                        • Nov 2003
                        • 36

                        #12
                        WORRIED: BROUGHT THE TT IN FOR MAINTENANCE!

                        YESTERDAY, I DROPPED OFF MY TT WITH A "STEREO FIX-IT" STORE THAT WAS RECOMMENDED TO ME BY AN A/V INSTALLER OF UNKNOWN CREDENTIALS. AFTER LEAVING THE STORE WITH MY RECEIPT FOR A $30 ESTIMATE IN HAND, I AM WORRIED ABOUT THE STORE'S SKILLS AND CAPABILITIES.

                        PLEASE ADVISE. IS TT MAINTENANCE AND THE INSTALLATION AND ADJUSTMENT OF A NEW CARTRIDGE THAT TRICKY? (I CAN SPEND UP TO $200 FOR THE CARTRIDGE.)

                        REASONS FOR CONCERN? THEY WERE NOT SURE AT FIRST WHAT CARTRIDGES THEY HAVE ON HAND TO REPLACE MY SHURE (THEY ONLY HAVE ONE AUDIOTECHNICA, MODEL UNKNOWN). I ALSO SHOWED THEM THE 1976 VINTAGE AC POWER CORD WITH TWO PRONGS AND ASKED IF IT SHOULD BE REPLACED WITH A MORE SOLID, THREE PRONG. THEY SAID IT WAS NOT NECESSARY. FINALLY, THE RCA AUDIO PLUGS HAVE TO BE REPLACED. WHEN I ASKED WHAT CABLES THEY HAVE ON THEIR SPOOL, THEY SAID MONSTER BUT COULD SAY ANY MORE ABOUT THE QUALITIES OF THE CABLES.

                        AM I BEING TOO CAUTIOUS? I JUST HAVE A “VIBE” ABOUT THEM, LIKE THEY WOULD TREATING IT MORE LIKE A VACUUM CLEANER.

                        WHEN I ASKED WHAT THEY DO TO CHECK IT FOR MAINTENANCE, THEY SAID THAT THEY CHECK THE ELECTRIC CONNECTIONS, FANS BELTS (ARE THERE ANY IN A DIRECT DRIVE TT?) AND GENERAL LUBRICATION. THEY WERE STUMPED WHEN I ASKED THEM IF THEY COULD REPLACE THE CUSHIONS ON THE BOTTOM OF THE 4 FEET UNDER THE TT.

                        THERE IS ONLY ONE OTHER PLACE I HEARD OF NEAR HERE IN LAKE WORTH, FLORIDA FOR TT REPAIR, RECOMMENDED BY ANOTHER AV INSTALLATION GUY. I COULD TAKE IT AWAY FROM THE STEREO FIX-IT GUY AND BRING IT THERE FOR AN ESTIMATE.

                        WHAT TO DO?

                        Comment

                        • Bob
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2000
                          • 802

                          #13
                          I would get it back and do any repairs yourself. I especially wouldn't let them choose or install your cartridge for you. Since turntables are mechanical rather than electronic it isn't brain surgery working on them.
                          Does it even need work? More than likely all it needs is a new cartridge, properly installed. I don't know anything about your particular TT but, it sounds like a plug in a play TT with minimal adjustments, if any, even possible. Does the arm make any adjustments possible? If all it needs is cleaning and re-lubing how hard can it be?

                          Comment

                          • Bob
                            Senior Member
                            • Jul 2000
                            • 802

                            #14
                            I would get it back and do any repairs yourself. I especially wouldn't let them choose or install your cartridge for you. Since turntables are mechanical rather than electronic it isn't brain surgery working on them.
                            Does it even need work? More than likely all it needs is a new cartridge, properly installed. I don't know anything about your particular TT but, it sounds like a plug in a play TT with minimal adjustments, if any, even possible. Does the arm make any adjustments possible? If all it needs is cleaning and re-lubing how hard can it be?

                            Comment

                            • Bob
                              Senior Member
                              • Jul 2000
                              • 802

                              #15
                              Is this your turntable?

                              Comment

                              • Bob
                                Senior Member
                                • Jul 2000
                                • 802

                                #16
                                Sorry, about the multiple posts but, for some reason I can't seem to get the edit function to work. If you don't want to work on the TT yourself send it here:
                                turntabletech.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, turntabletech.com has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!

                                Comment

                                • palmetto
                                  Member
                                  • Nov 2003
                                  • 36

                                  #17
                                  BOB:

                                  yes, that link is to a pic of my technics sl-1300. i think it cost me $300-$400 back in 1976.

                                  and that texas turntable repair place is EXACTLY the type of service i want. it is painfully obvious tht my local stereo fix-it place is not up to that level of service. i will call them monday.

                                  thanks.

                                  palmetto

                                  Comment

                                  • David Meek
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 8938

                                    #18
                                    You are doing the right thing by pulling your TT back. If you don't feel good about those people, don't let them touch your baby.

                                    As far as cartridges go, you can get "tools" to help you align one properly when you install it. It's not that hard, just take your time. I hopped over to the Needle Doctor site and found several. Look under Accessories and then Protractor Alignment Tools.




                                    David - HTGuide flunky
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                                    Comment

                                    • palmetto
                                      Member
                                      • Nov 2003
                                      • 36

                                      #19
                                      thanks, david. thanks, bob.

                                      i am paying attention to burke strickland's warning above about creating adequate passageways for cables in the wall unit and slack to pull out components (without pulling out my hair!).

                                      my TT will be the farthest componet from the receiver and needs about 10 feet for the RCA audio cables. question: should i up the ante for "better" rca audio cables and plugs, for the TT and especially for this distance? is it any more or less critical a concern for a TT than for DVD/CD p-layer or component cables for the TV?

                                      i am spending a few bucks here and there for better cables already (e.g $130 for 2 meter component cable to the TV and several hundred for bi-wires for the 3 front paradigms, but i am not going nuts.

                                      thanks.

                                      frame of reference:

                                      rotel 1055 a/v receiver
                                      pioneer elite 47ai DVD/cd player
                                      samsung 61" dlp TV
                                      paradigm studio 40 speakers
                                      my ol'd technics sl-1300 TT and a nenw cartridge (to be decided)

                                      Comment

                                      • David Meek
                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 8938

                                        #20
                                        Myles, I'd go with good solidly constructed and shielded RCAs for a 10' run, but I wouldn't break the bank on them either. If you ever upgrade the TT and cartridge, THEN spend more on the cables.




                                        David - HTGuide flunky
                                        Our "Theater"
                                        Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

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                                        Comment

                                        • palmetto
                                          Member
                                          • Nov 2003
                                          • 36

                                          #21
                                          any recommendations for that 10 foot run, by brand, or qualities i should look for?

                                          thanks.

                                          Comment

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