Another Dayton RS 3-Way Build

[OneFastCat]

I've been reading as much as possible on this forum and the tech talk forum from PE. What I've learned is that I have enough knowledge to be extremely dangerous. I'm a DIY native as I've built my own home theater and have done numerous home projects encompassing everything from tile work, electrical, framing, finish work, etc. I, like many graduated from the car stereo world back in the 90's. I did a custom install with hand built sub boxes and amp racks. I have a tendency to take on a project to challenge my skills and really get out of the comfort zone. With said, here is what I am thinking...

I really like the RS series speakers from Dayton Audio. I've read the build threads from Divine-Audio and really like the Kahnspire and the RS 3-Way. While searching for and reviewing designs I came across Lansche Audio. They have a tower speaker in their passive line called the 7.0. It's a 69" tall mammoth. I'd like to adapt a "divine" design to work with the WWMTMWW configuration. I figure the existing design will give me a template to go from and yet I can change it enough to make it mine. And... if I stumble, the community here seems great that they would offer advice on corrective action.

Here is the Lansche Audio site - Lansche Audio





No, I won't be trying to build the corona tweeter. I'm all for aggressive but this just isn't in my skillset. I'd like to fine tune my thoughts and the right drivers but I think something from the RS or esoteric line perhaps silk dome, 5" mid and 8" woofer. Still working these out.

I plan to build an MDF or BB carcass and wrap this in veneer.

The most challenging part for me will be the cross-over but I'm reading up on that and hope that I can ask for help if I get stuck.

These will be for 2 channel listening but if I can work them in I would consider these for theater duty with another tower or a new design for the CC.

Thanks for listening to the rambling... looking forward to being a part of this community and getting to the point where I can give back some of the things I learn along the way.

Judson

[---k---]

This has sort of been done before. Oh gosh the name is escaping me right now. One of those crazy Canadians again. He took CJD' big RS-3 Way and added a woofers to the top and bottom using active crossovers for the woofers turning it into a 4 way. This is really the way to go if you want something like that. But, if I remember right, it didn't turn out well. I think the room was too small and placing the subs top and bottom of the mains just wasn't ideal room placement and it never lived up to the expectations. Sure, at first it was crazy impressive, with rave reviews. But after the thrill of a monster size system wore off, some of the trade-offs of room and room placement became more apparent.

Here is the thing. A 3-way crossover is difficult to do. A good 3-way crossover is really really difficult to do. No offense, but I don't think you can create one of the level of quality of the established builds out there on your first or second try. Sure, you can probably build something that sounds good to you, but I know lots of people who love their Bose speakers too.

One of the reasons the Khans and the Big RS 3-way work, because the RS drivers are available in 4-ohm and 8-ohm versions, and the 2 RS150-8ohm in series along with 2 RS225-4ohm in parallel all works out to the same sensitivity of the tweeter and no driver padding is needed. This is just a minor thing that I think people don't realize. There is so much more to driver selection than just picking the best performer or the sexist looking. They all have to work together and be compatible, or things get crazy.

So, you need to star with identifying your goals first. What are you trying to achieve? Is it just a speaker to fit a sexy box??? Seriously.

Considering my Khans, because that is what I have. A pair of RS225 put out enough bass in most rooms that it isn't a limiting factor. Since we design the speakers to have a flat response, adding a second pair isn't going to get you more bass. If you want more pants flapping power, are you wanting to alter the frequency response? You can easily do this by turning up your subwoofer louder. If you want deeper extension into subwoofer terriority, then you really should be looking at increasing the size of the woofers. This is either a new design or you can do like I mentioned earlier, go 4-way using an active crossover (like a MINIDSP) to switch from the RS225 to whatever your adding.

If you want to swap the RS28F silk fabric in for the RS28A aluminum metal dome, great. fine. They've been tested and are similar enough that they are interchangeable. The esoteric drivers are a different animal.

Just my opinion, a simple 2-way design with paper or poly cones would be a good place to start your first crossover design. Then move up to the metal cones, then to 3-way.

Take a look at JonW's Spassvogel MT thread to get an idea of the crossover design process. And that was a 2-way design by a guy with science degrees from Cal Tech and MIT.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?25031-The-Spassvogel-MT-project-design-and-progress-(ScanSpeak-6600-amp-18W-8531)

[dar47]

I guess I'm one of those crazy Canadian so take it with a grain of salt. 8O I don't want to pile on but K has a good point. When we start out especially coming from car loud audio, we think more is better but unless you have a crazy big room how many RS225's do you need. My last RS WWMT's with matching center had 6-RS225's and at 100 db you got serious chest registry at 18' away. I find at this point you want more base fill not more loud. Clean very low distortion builds get loud real easy without you being aware.

How big is this room and what level do you want to play at?

[---k---]

I like the Canadians.

[OneFastCat]

Ryan,

Thank you for the honest feedback. I certainly don't want to spend a bunch of time or money building something that will be mediocre. For me wow factor is just as much about how it sounds as how it looks. I won't take one and leave the other behind. I'm absolutely fine with starting with a more basic design (MT) and moving to more complex projects as my skills increase. One thing that is really important to me - as I identify my goals - is to build something that I can say "I built that" and when I listen to it I say "Holy S***, I built that".
With that said, and some additional thought into this. I think it is best to not try to build a do-it-all speaker. Originally this was going to start in my family room and move to the home theater. What I build first will stay in the family room for a music only system. Once I get the hang of cross-over design and driver selection then I will build another project specifically for 5.1, or 7.2, or 9.2.4, or whatever...
For now I'm looking for a two part project - first part is the MT project, the second part would be a bass bin for it to sit on. I also think I will look for a project that is already well documented or maybe even a kit from Madisound - Zaph kit, etc. This will give me some hands on field type training to understand how things work together.

If you have suggestions on an existing build that is documented I would love some feedback on those. It looks like EvilTwin and Jon Marsh started down the path on a design that looks appealing. It was based on the NatlieP or Modula MT.

dar47,
Nothing wrong with crazy Canadian's! I'm a big Rush fan...

Loud and bass are pretty easy in my opinion. I'm really looking for quality over quantity. The room is 17x25 with 14' ceilings. For spl - reference level is way too loud.

Thanks for the input guys!

Judson

[---k---]

Thank you for not getting offended. Too many do. I think that is an excellent approach if you're serious about designing your own system.

Building a proven design is a great way to learn and hone your woodworking / speaker building skills. Then, reverse engineering it by taking measurements and simulating the crossover to see if you can come up with the same. There are lots of well documented designs out there. It depends on what you want, your budget, etc.

JonMarsh's Modula MT and NatP are really well documented, but they got real different crossovers that even seasoned vets have a little bit of a hard time understanding. Good builds, but if you're going to try and reverse engineer them, might want to start somewhere else.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, the Ochocinco CJD did for me is a cheap and easy speaker. It is well documented. The drivers are very wide band and didn't need much to get them to work. Should be an easy speaker to reverse engineer and learn from. CJD is also around here to help out and answer questions. Don't let the price fool you, these are great speakers.

I mentioned JonW's speakers. Pricey drivers. Medium to Difficult Woodwoorking. But nice speaker. Every step of the process is documented which would be beneficial. Jon's life unfortunately has interrupted his speaker building.

Paul Carmondy's speakers would be good . Everyone seems to love his Overnight Sensations - A small 4" MTM and TM design. His Speedsters get great reviews too. Paul is a great guy and would answer your questions. He has a bunch of other designs depending on what you want. https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy

Any Zaph Speaker would work. Curt Capmbell's designs are good. Might want to avoid the Statement's if you're trying to reverse engineer, because the open back mid takes a little bit more to understand the measurement and crossover process. But, his other designs should be doable. The venerable TriTrix is there, but I think the Ochocinco is better for the same rough price.

[OneFastCat]

I can certainly see where some people would be offended but everyone is entitled to your opinion. You were honest and forthcoming in your comments and from what I've read you and others here are genuinely here to help and enjoy sharing your hobby with others.

Thanks for the information on the various builds (and sites) for some of the better documented speakers out there. I'v been reading this site and all the other links you posted. I still really like the idea of a modular design. I think if I can find a good MTM or MT I can use that as the foundation for my build. Here's what I've found from a design standpoint:





I'm fairly flexible on budget. Under $1K is probably reasonable for a start. I shouldn't need to invest in any other tools other than a better soldering gun. I'll keep the tools separate, so drivers, cross-over parts, and the bom for cabinets.

I'm not stuck on Dayton but I really do like their RS line and feel like that line has a lot of designs. I even wonder if I could take the Kahnspires and modular-ize them (is that even a word?)

Judson

[dar47]

I like the second one. :T I would start with a Nat P mtm, as you have a fairly large room and a little more output will come in handy.

[OneFastCat]

I like the second one too. I think the NatP would be a good one for the MTM part. For the bass bin the ones pictured are Peerless 830869 8" Woofers. I can use those, the Dayton RSS210HF or something else. Any thoughts on using a plate amp on the bass bins?
The first picture makes me think a few curved cabinets from PE stacked could work.

[OneFastCat]

It sounds like JonMarsh was considering an upgrade to the NatP. One driver was the Dayton ES. Any idea if that went anywhere?
I also found these - Concerto

[dar47]

He is working on it, maybe north of your budget though. RS225 will fit in the profile, take a look at the Wavecors I have them in my Ardents and they are outstanding. Plate amp could work if you can fit it in those curved cabs, you could run something like an Inuke 3000 or a Crown pro audio amp. Lots of options.

[---k---]

It sounds like JonMarsh was considering an upgrade to the NatP. One driver was the Dayton ES. Any idea if that went anywhere?
I also found these - Concerto

The Concerto, with those drivers, it should be excellent. I'm not sure about his voicing. The crossover could be built with cheaper components if desired.

I'm guessing Jon will get back into the CatZ (MTM with Dayton ES) after his Antarctica trip. But who knows with that guy.

[OneFastCat]

The Concerto, with those drivers, it should be excellent. I'm not sure about his voicing. The crossover could be built with cheaper components if desired.

I'm guessing Jon will get back into the CatZ (MTM with Dayton ES) after his Antarctica trip. But who knows with that guy.

I'm hopeful. I might have to adjust the budget to do the ES line if they work out. I see he is evaluating tweeters too.

He is working on it, maybe north of your budget though. RS225 will fit in the profile, take a look at the Wavecors I have them in my Ardents and they are outstanding. Plate amp could work if you can fit it in those curved cabs, you could run something like an Inuke 3000 or a Crown pro audio amp. Lots of options.

I'm reading the Wavecor Ardent thread right now. Those do look excellent.

[Jonasz]

I'm guessing Jon will get back into the CatZ (MTM with Dayton ES) after his Antarctica trip. But who knows with that guy.

Always knew he was a bit crazy but THAT crazy?? 8O

For me a regular winter is more than cold enough... 8)

[CraigJ]

For me a regular winter is more than cold enough... 8)

Missing Arizona? Curious to see what you are working on (sorry for intruding on this thread).

[OneFastCat]

Always knew he was a bit crazy but THAT crazy?? 8O

For me a regular winter is more than cold enough... 8)

I'm just happy I don't live in Boston...

[OneFastCat]

Ok, the Ardent thread was a beast. Very good information in there. I do love the Wavecor drivers.

I've had a chance to continue defining this project and it continues to evolve as it seems many of the projects here do. I likely will need to create a new thread as this is steering away from the "Dayton 3-way" project that it started as.
I made a cardboard mock up of the tower system that I wanted to build and realized that it would be a safety issue at my house. We have kids (little Ninja's actually) running around the house - the youngest being under 2. Stacking 2-3 separate boxes on top of each other just wont work. Not safely anyway.
In sticking with my modular design goal of wanting to build a 2-way on a bass bin I set back out to the Internet to find a new inspiration. I started looking at Joseph Audio Pearl3 and the Passlabs SR1 and SR2. The SR-1 seemed to fit the bill. It's a stacked design with a 2-way on a bass bin - check. It has a wide base and sits lower to the ground making it a safer speaker - check. It has some complexity to the enclosure so it will be a challenging build - check.

My company also had a pretty good year and Madisound had the 10" magnesium Seas Excel drivers on sale so I bit. I'll plan to buy the tweeter and 6" drivers next and wait until I find a deal on the 8". Love the copper look and think they will perform quite well in this setup.
--k-- had a suggestion of going with an active set up so I set out to learn about active crossovers. Minidsp, etc. This is right up my alley. I'm really excited at the idea of building this all active in a 2-way and eventually a 4-way.

I've been reading all the projects that Troels Gravesen has done and am understanding more clearly about box volume, tuning, and relationship between enclosure and environment. There are some similarities between his Next4 and ATS designs and my SR project. Let's just say I'm learning a ton but not quite ready to make sawdust.

So that's where I am... feedback welcome.

[Steve Manning]

With regard to not wanting to stack boxes (with the Ninja's and all) I did a Troels Gravesen build that was two stacked boxes and combined them into one box. I made sure to keep driver spacing and what not the same and it turned out sounding great. If your interested ....... http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...ls+jensen+1071

[OneFastCat]

Interesting concept Steve. I read your build thread and I think they turned out great. I will consider this as I finalize a design. As a side note, how do they sound?


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[Steve Manning]

Interesting concept Steve. I read your build thread and I think they turned out great. I will consider this as I finalize a design. As a side note, how do they sound?


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They sound very nice, I would definitely recommend them to anyone considering them ....... if you look at page 7 of my build, I did make some comments about the sound there.

[Juhazi]

OneFastCast, are you fixed with passive crossover? I guess as a caraudio guy you are familiar with active systems, minidsp and multiple amplifiers. This way would be much easier and much more fun! If your construction is acoustically sane and drivers ok, a minidsp 4x10HD will be your friend!

[OneFastCat]

Another Dayton RS 3-Way Build

I'm actually quite looking forward to trying the minidsp. I think the 4x10 is a good fit for this. I don't have the knowledge nor the resources to try a passive 4-way crossover.


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[OneFastCat]

Another Dayton RS 3-Way Build

I received my Seas Excel W26 10" drivers today. I'm a little concerned about the shape they arrived in. When you spend nearly $800 on 2 speakers I would think they should show up well packed and in pristine condition. I will be reaching out to Madisound to see what can be done. Very little packaging was in the outer box and the inner boxes were not in good shape. The baskets appear to be ok with exception of some scratches on the outer edge. Cone and surrounds intact.

Outer Box



Inner Boxes



Outer Rim



Unboxed

[dar47]

Wow not even close, send them back the shipper can pay for that. Those are far to nice a driver to except that.

[OneFastCat]

Another Dayton RS 3-Way Build

That's what I thought. I already emailed Madisound. *Sigh*


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[5th element]

That is quite ridiculous and I wouldn't necessarily point the finger at Madisound, anyone can pack something better, but what happened here was purely shipping company negligence. If I wanted to pay someone to kick my boxes from one location to another I'd hire a high school football fanatic, not an actual shipping company.

[Jonasz]

Missing Arizona? Curious to see what you are working on (sorry for intruding on this thread).

Hi Craig, sorry to have missed this...ops:

Yes, I miss Arizona weatherwise but I'm still happy to live where I'm at. I guess every place has their good and bad going for them!

For the moment I'm experimenting with a dipole twoway top, built around a TD15M and a ribbon tweeter. Fun times!

[OneFastCat]

Well, I can see why this hobby is so addicting. So many speakers so little time.
The shipping fiasco with the Seas Excel drivers has been resolved. Madisound was great. They offered a full refund.
While that was being sorted out I came across gainphile's blog and fell in love with the idea behind a dipole fully active system. Fast forward, linkwitz, Nao Note, etc. I have no idea what I'm doing but it's going to be fun. If it doesn't work then I'll try something else. I bought the drivers - 4 Dayton RS265 HF, 2 RS225, 2 RS150, and the Seas DXT tweeters. I need to decide on some electronics. Minidsp 2x4 vs 2x8 or 4x10. I know I have a ton to figure out but I'm looking forward to it.


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[JeanM]

Oh boy Full active is fun, but can get just as complex if not more than a 3-4way passive. Good luck and keep us posted on progress!

[OneFastCat]

I've read advantages and disadvantages to both the minidsp 2x8 and 2-2x4's. Anyone care to share their experiences?


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[kingpin]

This has sort of been done before. Oh gosh the name is escaping me right now...

I'm offended. Joking.

I built the 3 ways and added 2 12" Dayton RS woofers on top of each.
Impressive...yes.
Sound quality was always there.

Here was the issue. Witht the 2 12" woofers so high up they other then looks they didn't seem to add much to the design being up so high. I guess not being on the floor killed most of the low-mid impact I was looking for.

So I turned them upside down. Both woofers on the bottom. This totally ruined the design as now the tweeter was too high and all the mids were playing in the ceiling.

I did do a smart thing though. When I built them I made sure that if I ever had any issues I could cut them down without any issues to end up with the original 3 way. This is what I did and to this day I still think they are one of the greatest sounding speakers I have heard. Sadly a few years back things weren't going so well and I was moving across the country and sold them to another AV'er.

They were 7' tall and roughly 600lbs each loaded.

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Surgery.

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Finished product.

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[wkhanna]

Hey Mike!


Great to hear from you!
Hope all is well with you.

Be well, my good friend!

Bill