B&W 684 Bi-Amp Experiment

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  • JustinGN
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 105

    B&W 684 Bi-Amp Experiment

    So having stared at those bare bottom terminals on my 684s since I bought them, and curious about the benefits of bi-amping, I set out this past weekend to begin an experiment on it. I grabbed some extra speaker wire I had (Monster In-Wall cable, nothing particularly special or nice, just cheap) and Monster Banana Plugs (Again, nothing nice, just the cheapest I could find), some scissors, and my SR6003 manual, and set out to bi-amp my front speakers and put them through their paces.

    After some initial confusion with the receiver and brackets on the speakers (I wound up taking apart half of the entire assembly before I realized simply loosening the top nut and sliding the bracket off to the side would suffice), I had the speakers properly bi-wired. Outside of engaging "Speaker C" mode on the rear of the receiver, a re-calibration was not performed. Both fronts were detected as Full Range by the initial setup, and the crossover frequency was kept at 100Hz, also detected by the receiver during setup. I wanted to make sure any improvements I heard were a direct result of the extra power and headroom afforded by the receiver's amplifier, not of calibration.

    Source Components:
    Sony Playstation 3 60GB (HDMI up to 24/192)
    Microsoft Xbox 360 (HDMI w/ bitstream DD/DTS)
    Nintendo Wii (Component Video)
    Dish Network Satellite TV (HDMI w/ bitstream DD)

    Initial Tests:

    The Killers - Hot Fuss (CD, 16/44.1)

    The wasn't really a fair first test. I had just bought the CD earlier in the evening, and hadn't given it a good listen yet. Mr. Brightside sounded relatively clear, though the DD version by Harmonix in Rock Band had better instrument isolation and atmosphere. Overall, the CD sounded muddy, which was disappointing. I quickly moved on to more familiar material.

    Paul Van Dyk - Volume (CD, 16/44.1)

    This was the first real proof of the benefits of the extra headroom provided by bi-amping. I skipped ahead to "Let Go", and listening to a clear roll from the deepest bass to the crispest highs without any gaps or muddying was nothing short of spine shivering. Bass had more punch and crispness, even though the subwoofer was not engaged (Since the speakers are Full Range). For the first time since I bought the speakers, it felt and sounded identical to when I heard them back at the dealer that first time - environment, presence, positioning, everything was fantastic.

    Halo Legends (Blu-Ray, various Dolby Digital Mixes)

    I didn't finish the film, since I had to turn down the speakers due to the time of night. However, I did make it through Origins I & II, The Duel, Prototype, and Tales of Spartan 1337. In particular, Prototype provided an admirable test of the speakers, with heavy bouts of gunfire and plasma discharges covering the soundfields. Once again, everything sounded crisp, but with unfamiliar source material, I was unable to pick out any unique differences or advantages.

    First Impressions:

    Bi-amping my 684s definitely seems to have some benefits with regards to clarity of the sound. My Marantz AVR barely has the power to drive the speakers from one channel, so bi-amping them gives the speakers a lot more headroom to breathe. Clarity and imaging has markedly improved, and frequency rolls in Electronica come off smoother than melted butter. Still, I don't know if it's worth the investment in a second pair of cables when I do get some nice ones, or if an investment in an external, more powerful amplifier would achieve similar results. In other words, I can't really confirm that the improvements I've heard thus far are a result of bi-wiring versus the extra power from bi-amping, though I can at least confirm an increase in overall quality.

    This upcoming weekend, I plan on putting them through their paces with familiar source material including video games, anime (great test for two channel audio), and a healthy mixture of DVDs and BDs. When I do, I'll post the updated impressions here.
  • stuofsci02
    Super Senior Member
    • Nov 2009
    • 1241

    #2
    Justin,

    Sounds like you had a fun weekend.. I really suggest you also try the same test (or at least the bi-amped part) without a cross-over set. If you are not running a sub you are losing a lot of sound info below 100HZ. Your speaker can easily go well below 100HZ and this is where I think you will notice a lot of the improvement of Bi-Amping.
    Main System:
    B&W 801D
    Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
    Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
    Oppo BDP-105
    Squeezebox Touch


    Second System:
    B&W CM7
    Emotiva UMC-1
    Emotiva UPA-2
    Oppo BDP-83SE
    Grant Fidelity DAC-09

    Comment

    • theblue
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2009
      • 116

      #3
      if you have the extra amp channels there is no reason you wouldn't want to bipower in my opinion.

      with your setup (and mine), I'd rather bipower using lamp cord, than use one run of high end speaker cable and not bipower.

      The real question is: If you where to buy an external amp should you get a high end 2 channel amp, or for the same money a lesser 4/5 channel amp and then bi-power? this is a lot harder to answer.
      Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
      rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
      B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
      a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

      Comment

      • JustinGN
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 105

        #4
        Stuofsci02:

        Yeah, improved bass response was one of the big things I noticed with bi-amping. I do have a 12" Klipsch Subwoofer I've been using in a pinch with a 100Hz cross over, and it is activated during surround material. Stereo Material is set NOT to engage the subwoofer however, to better gauge the speaker response.

        theblue:

        I've been looking at Emotiva amps, particularly the XPA series. They push tons of power over a single set of terminals per channel, which means I could go with the XPA-5 and bi-wire versus bi-amp. I've also noticed that not many amplifiers allow bi-amping unless I'm willing to drop upwards of $3500 to $10,000 on an amp (I can't afford that), nor do sound processors have dual front channel outputs for using two inexpensive amps to achieve bi-amping (Probably a space issue, especially with XLR outputs). The SR6003 only puts out 100W per channel (according to the spec sheet, anyways), so I'm not that surprised that bi-amping has produced such good results.

        One thing I'm confused on, is that the SR6003 has two sets of Front Speaker Outputs; the manual, however, says that bi-amping the front speakers should be done using the Speaker C outputs, rather than the extra set of fronts. Any ideas why that is?

        Comment

        • stuofsci02
          Super Senior Member
          • Nov 2009
          • 1241

          #5
          Probably the second set of terminals for the fronts are for Bi-Wiring...

          In reality I would not worry about trying to get a setup that is bi-amped or bi-wired. I would go for what sounds best. Bi-Amping does not necessarily mean better.

          Now as far as bi-wiring is concerned I think this is more of a preference then an upgrade. I have bi-wired and not bi-wired. I have had lots of debates with others (even family members) and in the end the science says bi-wiring should make no difference and I can hear no difference. Some will bi-wire because they can and will claim a difference.

          Now remember 100 wpc is a lot of power..... I have run the 683s on 55 wpc NAD without any problem. I have also run them on 400 wpc NAD.. I found the 55 wpc amplifier more to my liking..

          Now I use a 130 wpc Chord Electronics Amp with my 804s.. This sucker was expensive, but compared to everything I listed to (even amps that were 300 wpc) it was best for me.

          More power definately does not mean better.
          Main System:
          B&W 801D
          Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
          Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
          Oppo BDP-105
          Squeezebox Touch


          Second System:
          B&W CM7
          Emotiva UMC-1
          Emotiva UPA-2
          Oppo BDP-83SE
          Grant Fidelity DAC-09

          Comment

          • theblue
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2009
            • 116

            #6
            Originally posted by JustinGN
            theblue:

            I've been looking at Emotiva amps, particularly the XPA series. They push tons of power over a single set of terminals per channel, which means I could go with the XPA-5 and bi-wire versus bi-amp. I've also noticed that not many amplifiers allow bi-amping unless I'm willing to drop upwards of $3500 to $10,000 on an amp (I can't afford that), nor do sound processors have dual front channel outputs for using two inexpensive amps to achieve bi-amping (Probably a space issue, especially with XLR outputs). The SR6003 only puts out 100W per channel (according to the spec sheet, anyways), so I'm not that surprised that bi-amping has produced such good results.

            One thing I'm confused on, is that the SR6003 has two sets of Front Speaker Outputs; the manual, however, says that bi-amping the front speakers should be done using the Speaker C outputs, rather than the extra set of fronts. Any ideas why that is?
            I think they use C output so that you can still have 2 zones while bipowering. (and 2/B = zone 2) ?

            as shown in my sig, I'm using an older 5 channel rotel amp that I already had and that I think sounds great for bipowering. If I where you (or I where to do it over knowing my now setup), I would find a really nice 3 channel amp for the front stage, then let the marantz internal amp power the rears / sides -- it's plenty beefy enough to do that job well.

            the Emotiva amps look really nice, but I've noticed that in this economy you can grab some really nice used monoblocks on audiogon for the same money.
            Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
            rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
            B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
            a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

            Comment

            • JustinGN
              Senior Member
              • May 2009
              • 105

              #7
              Originally posted by theblue
              I think they use C output so that you can still have 2 zones while bipowering. (and 2/B = zone 2) ?

              as shown in my sig, I'm using an older 5 channel rotel amp that I already had and that I think sounds great for bipowering. If I where you (or I where to do it over knowing my now setup), I would find a really nice 3 channel amp for the front stage, then let the marantz internal amp power the rears / sides -- it's plenty beefy enough to do that job well.
              Well, I'm also looking to replace the SR6003 at some point in the future with an HDMI 1.4 or 3D-capable processor, preferably Emotiva's XMC-1 or a future Onkyo/Integra offering (I dig the VGA port for use with my Dreamcast), especially since it has video conversion issues. I'd like to go with seperates, so I can tinker with amplifiers more, and be able to avoid replacing the entire setup every time I want a new feature.

              Anyways, how are you bi-amping on the Rotel? Does your processor have two sets of audio outputs for the fronts?

              Comment

              • theblue
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2009
                • 116

                #8
                I have two of the audioquest M-22-F/HRD then 4 interconnects to 4 channels on the amp.


                they are like $10 each, and look and feel super well built.
                Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                Comment

                • SteelyTom
                  Junior Member
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 13

                  #9
                  theblue--

                  I'm about to order a pair of B&W 683s, and the sales guy has sold me on a five-channel Rotel preamp/amp combo (RSP-1570 and RMB-1565) partly for future HT/connectivity options, but partly to bi-amp the 683s.

                  I'm curious what benefits (if any) you get in your 683s from bi-amping. Does it change the musical character of the speakers? More bass, etc.?

                  Comment

                  • theblue
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2009
                    • 116

                    #10
                    that's a dangerous question to answer, the difference depends on what you started with. If you had a nice expensive 2 channel Krell amp, switching to bi-amping on a much cheaper rotel would probably be a downgrade.

                    I briefly tested my 683s with a non bipowered 100rms x 2 using my rotel and the bass was not as tight, everything sounded less defined.

                    I guess my rule of thumb general advice is to probably just get the best 2 channel (or 3 channel for center) in your budget if you don't already own equipment. But if you're like me, and already owned the amp with extra available channels, then by all means use them to bipower because it really can't hurt.

                    also, look for used amps online (audiogon, etc), the technology hasn't changed much in the last decade, they don't really wear out and it's hard to damage them. You can get twice as much amp for the same cost as new (or spend less money for the same) In this economy people are unloading all kinds of nice stuff for very cheap.
                    Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                    rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                    B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                    a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                    Comment

                    • JustinGN
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 105

                      #11
                      Originally posted by theblue
                      I have two of the audioquest M-22-F/HRD then 4 interconnects to 4 channels on the amp.


                      they are like $10 each, and look and feel super well built.
                      Any chance they make one for XLR? Otherwise, I'll have to bi-wire from an XPA-5 instead of Bi-Amp.

                      EDIT: HURR DURR, I'm an idiot. I found a number of XLR "Y" adapters from a variety of outlets. Nothing immediately jumped out, but with some time I'm sure I can find a decent set and make use of the XPA-5 for Bi-Amping, though 600W per speaker seems a bit of overkill. If I could find a Class D or ICE Amplifier for a good price, they'd be a lot handier.
                      Last edited by JustinGN; 24 February 2010, 07:00 Wednesday.

                      Comment

                      • turnupthemetal
                        Junior Member
                        • Mar 2008
                        • 11

                        #12
                        Firstly, it's good to have a thread on 684's. Sometimes I feel like I own the poor cousin to the 683 and 685. I have my 684's biamped and I certainly noticed the difference after doing it. I have a Denon AVR-1707, which allows me to bi-amp the surround back channels to the front speakers. The speakers had more clarity, depth, and bass after bi-amping. I have an Athena AS-P4100 with my crossover set to 80hz. However, I have the sub turned off when listening to 2 channel music. I do hope to purchase a nice 2 Channel amp (preferably a tube amp cause I love LP's) at some stage, but bi-amping my speakers in the meantime has definitely improved my listening experience with the entry-level amp that I have.
                        Last edited by turnupthemetal; 24 February 2010, 06:36 Wednesday. Reason: Had an afterthought

                        Comment

                        • phycomp
                          Junior Member
                          • Jun 2012
                          • 5

                          #13
                          My previous AV receiver only had 5 channels so bi-amping was not an option , but having recently got the 7.2 Yamaha RXV773 receiver I was impressed at the gains in bass grip, depth and clarity bi-amping has bought.
                          Last edited by mjb; 02 August 2012, 00:28 Thursday.

                          Comment

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