Best CENTER for 683s?

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  • Randell
    Junior Member
    • Feb 2010
    • 16

    Best CENTER for 683s?

    I just bought a pair of 683s, which I'm loving. However, I noticed that my existing center (Athena AS-C1.2) is not really up to par. Here is the current center:

    Athena AS-C1.2 URL

    I find that the Athena sounds very directional. Like the sound is obviously coming from below the TV (even though it is inches from the TV). Does not have the imaging capabilities of the 683s, but is very clear for dialog.

    I would like a center speaker that basically disappears, has a more open sound, and has imaging on par with 683s. Due to all the talk about the HTM61, I am looking for a good alternative.

    Any ideas on the best alternative?

    The dealer is 5 hrs away so I need to do my homework first. They have the HTM61 for $700 CAD, HTM4S for $1200 CAD (on sale).


    My current setup:
    Yamaha HTR-6290b (130w x 7)
    B&W 683s (front)
    SVS PC12-Plus subwoofer (525w)
    Pioneer bookshelfs (surrounds)

    50% music / 50% movies
    Yamaha HTR-6290B (130w x 7)
    B&W 683s (front)
    B&W HTM4S (center)
    Pioneer bookshelfs (surrounds)
    SVS PC12-Plus subwoofer (525w)
  • theblue
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2009
    • 116

    #2
    people give mixed reviews on the HTM61, I haven't heard it but I suspect it would work better vertically... if you have a small room the HTM62 might work well... you could always buy another pair of 683s and you'll have your center rear taken care of while your at it

    I currently have an LCR60 S3 and want to get something bigger and better, but I'm happy with it for now.
    Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
    rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
    B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
    a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

    Comment

    • emig5m
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2008
      • 646

      #3
      Originally posted by Randell
      I would like a center speaker that basically disappears, has a more open sound, and has imaging on par with 683s. Due to all the talk about the HTM61, I am looking for a good alternative.

      Any ideas on the best alternative?
      HTM3S...lol. The out of the box tweeter really helps with imaging, especially with a horizontal center speaker cabinet. :T Well you did say "I would like a center speaker that basically disappears, has a more open sound, and has imaging on par with 683s." hehe.

      No seriously, if I had the knowledge I have now back when I was buying the 600 series I would have got the CMC2 for the 683s (except I don't think it was even out when I got my 683s). The CMC2 seems like the next best thing behind the HTM3S.

      Comment

      • stuofsci02
        Super Senior Member
        • Nov 2009
        • 1241

        #4
        I have HTM61 and it is the worst center.... Even when I had 683 it was all wrong.. I will be selling mine as soon as I can find a HTM3S..

        Or even if I can find an HTM4S for a good price I might do that..
        Main System:
        B&W 801D
        Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
        Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
        Oppo BDP-105
        Squeezebox Touch


        Second System:
        B&W CM7
        Emotiva UMC-1
        Emotiva UPA-2
        Oppo BDP-83SE
        Grant Fidelity DAC-09

        Comment

        • theblue
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2009
          • 116

          #5
          let me know if you decide to sell... I might take a chance on it.
          Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
          rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
          B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
          a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

          Comment

          • Randell
            Junior Member
            • Feb 2010
            • 16

            #6
            Are the HTM4S and HTM3S centers comparable? I was kind of leaning towards the HTM4S. With the HTM4S, I would imagine I would set it to "small" and let the sub handle the low end, since there are no woofers on this center.

            Is HTM4S better than CMC2?
            Yamaha HTR-6290B (130w x 7)
            B&W 683s (front)
            B&W HTM4S (center)
            Pioneer bookshelfs (surrounds)
            SVS PC12-Plus subwoofer (525w)

            Comment

            • omar7631
              Member
              • Sep 2009
              • 39

              #7
              Originally posted by Randell
              Are the HTM4S and HTM3S centers comparable? I was kind of leaning towards the HTM4S. With the HTM4S, I would imagine I would set it to "small" and let the sub handle the low end, since there are no woofers on this center.

              Is HTM4S better than CMC2?
              Get the htm4s its worth it! I had the htm-2 with the 683's and it was awesome, now a I have the Htm3s with the 804s and all I could notice was more bass from the center channel., but the dialogue was almost the same.
              B&W 804s
              B&W htm3s
              B&W dm601 s3
              Outlaw lfm-1 EX x 2
              Denon 2808ci
              Emotiva XPA-5
              Emotiva XPA-2
              Sony PS3

              Comment

              • Frank Helmling
                Member
                • May 2009
                • 54

                #8
                I had all those problems with the HTM61 and solved them all:

                I completely plugged the 683's and the HTM61 and angled it from below the screen to ear level direction. I contoured the HTM 61 on my Rotel RSX1550 (+4HF and-2LF). You need to have the ability to EQ the centerchannel on it's own when using a HTM61. I have to admit that after all it blends perfectly with my 683's!

                BTW: Don't look at my avatar, it'S my older setup with 684's and HTM62
                Greetz from Monnem (Mannheim)

                Frank

                Comment

                • stuofsci02
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Nov 2009
                  • 1241

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Frank Helmling
                  I had all those problems with the HTM61 and solved them all:

                  I completely plugged the 683's and the HTM61 and angled it from below the screen to ear level direction. I contoured the HTM 61 on my Rotel RSX1550 (+4HF and-2LF). You need to have the ability to EQ the centerchannel on it's own when using a HTM61. I have to admit that after all it blends perfectly with my 683's!

                  BTW: Don't look at my avatar, it'S my older setup with 684's and HTM62
                  So you altered the sound of the 683's and then EQ'ed the heck out of the HTM61 to get a good blend? I commend your commitment to a seamless front end, but come on.... Even at 600 series pricepoint you shouldn't have to do that to get a good balance.

                  I do not like to have to apply any eq to my speakers, so this would not work for me. Also, port plugging the speakers won't be for everyone, and should really only be used to correct for a room with a big bass response.
                  Main System:
                  B&W 801D
                  Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                  Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                  Oppo BDP-105
                  Squeezebox Touch


                  Second System:
                  B&W CM7
                  Emotiva UMC-1
                  Emotiva UPA-2
                  Oppo BDP-83SE
                  Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                  Comment

                  • emig5m
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2008
                    • 646

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Frank Helmling
                    I had all those problems with the HTM61 and solved them all:

                    I completely plugged the 683's and the HTM61 and angled it from below the screen to ear level direction. I contoured the HTM 61 on my Rotel RSX1550 (+4HF and-2LF). You need to have the ability to EQ the centerchannel on it's own when using a HTM61. I have to admit that after all it blends perfectly with my 683's!

                    BTW: Don't look at my avatar, it'S my older setup with 684's and HTM62
                    My final setup with the 600's was VERY similar to yours. Maybe people do hear the same after all, lol. I fully plugged the HTM61 but only used the half plugs in the 683 and also boosted the treble of the HTM61 in comparison to the 683. On it's own it does sound a little muffled compared to the 683. After a little tweaking it was perfectly fine to me just like it is to you. But the HTM3S is just effortlessly clear period.... :B

                    Comment

                    • Frank Helmling
                      Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 54

                      #11
                      BTW: I have to say that I'm the lucky one with a Room of 7m length, which provides me with my first roommode at 24,something Hz. So bigger subwoofers (12,15 or 18inch) are obsolete.

                      But the 683 is (a very fine loudspeaker, best described as boom for the bang) designed for getting out slightly to much bass and together with my room, it's been the better way to plug them for tighter and not boomy bass. And, as we all know it's about personal taste (said the duck and entered the turkey)

                      The HTM3s (@emig5m): I would love to have one or better I would love to own a 800 series system but this doesn't make sense without any serious room treatment in my apartment ....
                      Greetz from Monnem (Mannheim)

                      Frank

                      Comment

                      • Randell
                        Junior Member
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 16

                        #12
                        Still, this does not really bode well for the HTM61. It is still $700 for something that you have to tweak out to sound good... I certainly don't want to spend $700+ for a new center that will perhaps only be slightly better than my current Athena (which was only $250)!

                        I'd rather go for the HTM4S if it will integrate and perform better out of the box.
                        Yamaha HTR-6290B (130w x 7)
                        B&W 683s (front)
                        B&W HTM4S (center)
                        Pioneer bookshelfs (surrounds)
                        SVS PC12-Plus subwoofer (525w)

                        Comment

                        • theblue
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2009
                          • 116

                          #13
                          I think you'll find it would still be a significant upgrade in your case. The argument in this thread is should you spend a little more for a lot better, or spend a little less for something like the HTM62 which might have a nicer character.
                          Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                          rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                          B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                          a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                          Comment

                          • Randell
                            Junior Member
                            • Feb 2010
                            • 16

                            #14
                            Well I went with the HTM4S with my brief listening so far, the center mismatch caused by the Athena has been resolved. Sounds good!

                            One question, the HTM4S has two terminals on the back that support banana plugs, which are used by the jumpers. The other two terminals have plastic things in holes preventing the use of banana plugs. Whats up with that? I'd like to connect the wire via banana plugs. Can these plastic pieces come out?

                            Found an image of what I'm talking about:
                            Yamaha HTR-6290B (130w x 7)
                            B&W 683s (front)
                            B&W HTM4S (center)
                            Pioneer bookshelfs (surrounds)
                            SVS PC12-Plus subwoofer (525w)

                            Comment

                            • timjclark
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 104

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Randell
                              One question, the HTM4S has two terminals on the back that support banana plugs, which are used by the jumpers. The other two terminals have plastic things in holes preventing the use of banana plugs. Whats up with that? I'd like to connect the wire via banana plugs. Can these plastic pieces come out?

                              Found an image of what I'm talking about:
                              http://avforum.no/forum/attachments/...8-img_3103.jpg
                              Yes - those plastic plugs pull right out! I just bought a new HTM4S in December and I'm really loving it! I was using an LCR3 as a center previously and when I swapped in the HTM4S my center channel simply disappeared! There are times when I walk up to the 803Ss to make sure they are still on as the image is so transparent.
                              -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                              -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                              -Rotel: RSP-1069
                              -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                              Office system:
                              -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                              -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                              Comment

                              • Randell
                                Junior Member
                                • Feb 2010
                                • 16

                                #16
                                No trick to it? There wasnt much to grab on to but it didnt seem to want to move. I didnt want to break anything either...
                                Yamaha HTR-6290B (130w x 7)
                                B&W 683s (front)
                                B&W HTM4S (center)
                                Pioneer bookshelfs (surrounds)
                                SVS PC12-Plus subwoofer (525w)

                                Comment

                                • timjclark
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Apr 2009
                                  • 104

                                  #17
                                  Nope, I do not remember there being any trick to removing them. It was snug in there, but not all that much. Maybe they need a little turn first?

                                  I hope the previous owner didn't jam them in there somehow.
                                  -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                                  -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                                  -Rotel: RSP-1069
                                  -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                                  Office system:
                                  -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                                  -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                                  Comment

                                  • sleddogg
                                    Junior Member
                                    • Mar 2008
                                    • 29

                                    #18
                                    I too am an owner of 683's and a HTM61 center, however I have not set the system up yet. I will soon be finished with the basement and will then be faced with determining how the center mates with the mains. I also have purchased all of my interconnects except for the center channel wire from the pro to the amp. Is there any consideration I can take in possibly using a wire of a different brand to help the center to blend in better? The other channels will be going through Audioquest Diamondbacks. Should I just buy another Diamondback or should I try something else to obtain a good match in timbre. I posed this same question to Doug at CatCables whom I just recieved a sub cable from. (Thanks Doug) and wondered if anyone here has had experience that I could benefit from. Thanks,
                                    Lance Tonkinson
                                    B&W 683/685/HTM61/ASW610
                                    Rotel RSP985/Rotel RMB1095/Rotel RCD1072

                                    Comment

                                    • Randell
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Feb 2010
                                      • 16

                                      #19
                                      Granted, I have not done A-B comparison, but my understanding is that big brand, high priced speaker wire is really overrated particularly on moderate to short cable runs.

                                      At short distances, wire impedance is less of a concern. So as long as you use a decent 14AWG or 12AWG wire then you will get optimal results.

                                      For example, I use 14AWG on my fronts and center. 7 feet to fronts, and 3 feet to center. This is well within the wire length guidelines according to this page:


                                      For longer runs, like 30+ feet, there will be more resistance and thus necessity for a larger gauge, better quality wire. But for your center I doubt this is the case. Regardless, wire wont make a difference in timber like that.

                                      When adjusting my previous Athena center to match my 683s, I found perhaps the biggest improvement in center performance occured when I tilted the speaker so that it pointed at ear level for the listening position. Also, it helps to have some air around the speaker -- never box it into a recessed cabinet.
                                      Yamaha HTR-6290B (130w x 7)
                                      B&W 683s (front)
                                      B&W HTM4S (center)
                                      Pioneer bookshelfs (surrounds)
                                      SVS PC12-Plus subwoofer (525w)

                                      Comment

                                      • sleddogg
                                        Junior Member
                                        • Mar 2008
                                        • 29

                                        #20
                                        I was sort of hoping to set the center and mains into the wall on a temporary basis so my four year old can't get at the speaker cones and tweeter like he did on my old B&W 220i's. I would have a mechanical room behind the wall so I can walk back there and adjust toe and angle. The wall itself would have a trimmed out speaker fabric in off white color. I thought this the best way to go until he is old enough to trust around them.

                                        Would there be any tonal differences between the different RCA interconnects available for center channel between my processor and amp?
                                        B&W 683/685/HTM61/ASW610
                                        Rotel RSP985/Rotel RMB1095/Rotel RCD1072

                                        Comment

                                        • emig5m
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Aug 2008
                                          • 646

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by sleddogg
                                          Would there be any tonal differences between the different RCA interconnects available for center channel between my processor and amp?
                                          Gulp. I think you're going about it the wrong way. EQ and/or tone controls (and perhaps plugging the port) would be the route to go...

                                          Comment

                                          • sleddogg
                                            Junior Member
                                            • Mar 2008
                                            • 29

                                            #22
                                            My processor doesn't allow for individual tone controls for the speakers. I just thought I should ask as I haven't yet purchased an RCA interconnect for my center channel yet. I have older (25yrs. Monster) cables that are one by one showing signs of failure and have about 2 left that I still trust. I will use one of those until I have the extra money to purchase the last "New" cable. I have been piecing this system together as money allows. If there were the kind of differences suitable to help the situation, I would hate to not have asked the question, even though I suspect that not to be the case.

                                            Of course, placement and tilt angle experimentation will all play into my own HT room outcome. I will likely eventually end up with the newer Rotel processor so maybe that will allow for tone contro of ind speakers. Until then, I'll take any and all suggestions for making the HTM61 work with my system. This is what I bought and this is what I will have for a long time. All the input so far is well appreciated. Thanks you all.
                                            Lance Tonkinson
                                            B&W 683/685/HTM61/ASW610
                                            Rotel RSP985/Rotel RMB1095/Rotel RCD1072

                                            Comment

                                            • Randell
                                              Junior Member
                                              • Feb 2010
                                              • 16

                                              #23
                                              Yeah, cables will affect things like high frequency attenuation and overall volume. In other words, lower quality wires will transmit a little less detail, and overall volume will be SLIGHTLY reduced. Not really the type of difference you are looking for.

                                              Again, I would never bother with buying Monter cables as their marketing is based on myth. Most any good quality digital grade RCA should suffice.
                                              Yamaha HTR-6290B (130w x 7)
                                              B&W 683s (front)
                                              B&W HTM4S (center)
                                              Pioneer bookshelfs (surrounds)
                                              SVS PC12-Plus subwoofer (525w)

                                              Comment

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