B&W and Newer Digital Amps

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  • Glenee
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2006
    • 253

    B&W and Newer Digital Amps

    I am going to finally have to fess up to Age, and realize that moving 100# 500 watt Mono's around, just isn't in the future for me.
    I was wondering if anyone here has been using the new Digital Amps on there B&W's ?
    I have been pondering a couple of brands that I saw and Heard at the CES Show. Those being Bel Canto and Wyred 4 Sound. It seems they have made great strides in taming the lean side of earlier versions. I know that wyred 4 sound is supposed to be coming out with a totally new reference grade design, thats suppose to get us over the final hump of drawbacks to the earlier versions of these type Amps.
    I know the Supreme being,all knowing Kal Rubinson has used the Bel Canto's and even wrote a comparison review over his previous Bel Canto's and the new MK II BC's.
    If you"ve have or been around someone who uses Digital Amps on B&W.
    Please Post Your Thoughts.
    Remember Glenee does think about all thought's.
  • boarder1995
    Member
    • Sep 2009
    • 68

    #2
    I've currently got for demo a D-sonic 2 channel 525w/ch amp that I need to hook up. I'll be playing through 803D and comparing it to a Sunfire 200wx5 and possible against a few other cheaper amps (Behringer, Emotiva, etc.). I'm really curious too, so I best get to it!

    Comment

    • SRT-10 Viper
      Senior Member
      • Mar 2005
      • 253

      #3
      I tried a pair of Nuforce SE's and felt it was a little harsh for my taste. I have Lamm 1.2s which are hybrid SS and tube so trying the Nuforce might have been too much of a change for me. It was a great opportunity Nuforce had a deal you could try their amps for $1 for 30 days. They charged you for the full price, however if you sent it back within 30 days they would credit your card back all but $1. So I thought, hmmm here might be a chance to sell my Lamms and save significant dollars if I liked the sound. Needless to say, I still have the Lamms.

      Comment

      • theblue
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2009
        • 116

        #4
        excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between a "digital amp" and a regular solid state amp?
        Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
        rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
        B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
        a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

        Comment

        • wettou
          Ultra Senior Member
          • May 2006
          • 3389

          #5
          Originally posted by theblue
          excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between a "digital amp" and a regular solid state amp?
          Here you are

          Classes of Amplifiers

          Amplifiers do not actually increase the strength of an electronic signal. What happens instead, the signal is copied and enlarged. There are different schemes for amplifying the signal. There are different classes of amplifiers. These classes are A, AB, and C. There have been some special classes such as G, created by Hatachi. Class H created by Soundcraftsman. Class D for the so-called digital amps and Class T for Tripath's digital amplifiers.

          Class A amplifiers use one or more transistors that conduct during both the positive and negative cycles of the signal. This Class of amplifier has the lowest distortion but it is very inefficient and generates a lot of heat. A Class A amplifier requires that the amplifier generate the full current no matter what the output is. If you were simply listening to FM or watching a movie, the amplifier would be consuming as much power as if you had it turned up to full volume.

          In order to increase efficiency, Class B amplifiers use one transistor to conduct the positive portion of the waveform and another transistor to conduct the negative portion of the waveform. 99% of all audio amplifiers today are Class B. Class B amplifier can be built today so that its distortions are well below what the human ear can detect and nearly to the point where it is unmeasurable.

          Many amplifiers call themselves Class A/B. In reality, very few are. Early Class B amplifiers had a problem known as switching delay. In a class B design, a transistor works 50% of the cycle while another transistor works 50% of the cycle. In early class B amplifiers, there was a distortion created between the time the devices were switching back and forth. Some people referred to this distortion as notch distortion because there was a notch appearance on an oscilloscope between the two waveforms.

          Class A/B was created to leave the transistor conducting while the second transistor was conducting. This created an overlap between the two signals. The problem with this approach is that it created its own distortion called gumming. This means that the signal would get a little fatter where the two devices were both conduction.

          Today, if you look at a properly designed Class B amplifier on a scope, you will see no switching distortion.

          Class D amps are sometimes called digital amplifiers. There is really no such thing today as a digital amplifier. A Class D amplifier uses transistors that are either switched on or off to represent positive or negative values. The transistors are either on or off. The advantage of such a system is that it is highly efficient and generates very little heat. The disadvantage is that there can be a distortion caused between the switching of the positive and negative transistors as the positive and negative transistors can not be on at the same time.

          Many Class D amplifiers are finding their way into Subwoofers. They are inexpensive to build and the logic is that the switching distortion is not important in a subwoofer.

          Class T amps are a more refined switching amplifier developed by Tripath. It uses signal processing to eliminate the switching distortion of Class D. nOrh is currently working with parts from Tripath to determine the sonic merits using the Tripath parts. Our current view is that advantage to using Class T and Class D amps is not to achieve better sound than can currently be achieved with standard A or A/B amplifiers. Rather it is an attempt to create a lower priced amplifier that offers good performance.

          Probably 90% of the amplifiers on the market are designed to get a particular RMS rating and little consideration is provided to provide any extra power from the power supply. A properly designed power supply requires three times the output from the power supply than required to drive the amplifier to its maximum RMS rating. Buying and shipping large transformers is very expensive. Manufacturers are looking for ways to cut these costs.



          Here are additional links:

          Articles and buying guides about power amplifiers, tube amps, and amplification needs for stereo and multi-channel audio systems. Even though many of the links are a few years old, there was still enough relevant information to keep this page in our archive.  Also, see our latest amplifier articles. How Class D Digital Amplifiers Work – eCoustics.com […]


          Answers to common questions about audio equipment, selecting, buying, set-up, tuning, use, repair, developments, and philosophy.


          Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

          Comment

          • Glenee
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2006
            • 253

            #6
            They say in all the info I can Gather, that the Bass is some of the Tightest and cleanest of Amps. On the Bel Canto's and Wyred 4 Sound that is.

            Comment

            • wettou
              Ultra Senior Member
              • May 2006
              • 3389

              #7
              Classé vs Bel Canto?

              Has anyone had a chance to compare Classé to Bel Canto with 802Ds
              Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

              Comment

              • BassThatHz
                Senior Member
                • Jul 2006
                • 153

                #8
                You should really check out my youtube channel, I've have been quad-amplifing my B&W 800 series speakers for some time now and have been posting videos for all to listen to...

                Roughly 10,000watts@4 "theoretically" on tap, 4000 of which is from the same 500/1000w B&O ICE module design used by/in many brands.

                You will have to apologize for my lack of acoustical treatments, non-pro mono-mic setup and youtube quality... it is what it is.
                (I recommend headphones)

                Here's four random ones:
                Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


                Have a listen and if you still have concerns after that,
                we can go from there I guess...

                Comment

                • BWLover
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 552

                  #9
                  Originally posted by BassThatHz
                  You should really check out my youtube channel, I've have been quad-amplifing my B&W 800 series speakers for some time now and have been posting videos for all to listen to...

                  Roughly 10,000watts@4 "theoretically" on tap, 4000 of which is from the same 500/1000w B&O ICE module design used by/in many brands.

                  You will have to apologize for my lack of acoustical treatments, non-pro mono-mic setup and youtube quality... it is what it is.
                  (I recommend headphones)

                  Here's four random ones:
                  Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                  Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                  Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                  Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


                  Have a listen and if you still have concerns after that,
                  we can go from there I guess...
                  Explain your set up please. I saw your equipment list. But how do you have your amplifiers and speakers configured. thanks
                  Bowers & Wilkins 683 Speakers
                  Rotel RB-1090 2 Channel Amp
                  Rotel RC-1082 Stereo Pre Amp
                  Rotel RCD-1072 CD Player
                  Pro-Ject Debut Carbon w/ Ortofon 2M Red (sitting on a piece of slate supported by 3 "solid tech feet of silence" isolation feet)
                  Rotel RLC-1040 Power Conditioner
                  Shynyata Research SR-Z1 Power Outlet & Venom 3 Power Cords x 4
                  Tara Labs RSC Vector 1 Speaker Cables & Interconnects
                  Pioneer PDP-5070HD 50" Plasma
                  Playstation 3
                  Shaw HD PVR
                  Primacoustic Room Treatments

                  Comment

                  • audioqueso
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Nov 2004
                    • 1930

                    #10
                    I tried Nuforce with B&W 805 and 601 S3. So be honest, the Nuforce did wonders for the 601's. I first auditioned the Nuforce with the 601's. So I was expecting such an improvement with the 805's... but that was not the case. I then tried out the Nuforce with my 600 S3's in the bedroom. Same results as the 601 S3 had. I tried comparing it all in the same room, table, seat, etc.. the 805's just didn't benefit from the Nuforce in the same way that they 600 series did.
                    B&W 804S/Velodyne SPL-1000R/Anthem MRX720

                    Comment

                    • Blindamood
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2003
                      • 899

                      #11
                      I've got the Rotel RMB-1085 (Class D) amp running B&W's...805S, HTM4S, and SCMS and love the sound. Here is a link to a discussion of this amp, including my mini-review and some pics...

                      Brad

                      Comment

                      • wettou
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • May 2006
                        • 3389

                        #12
                        ICEpower audio amplifiers

                        Any one has experience with the following

                        eAR 1001-REF MK2 mono-block power amplifier


                        Ice Block™ audio amplifier


                        MONOPHONIC (1-Channel) AMPLIFIERS



                        W4 SX-1000 receives the Editors' Choice Award from The Absolute Sound (March issue 201):T
                        Last edited by wettou; 18 February 2010, 21:08 Thursday.
                        Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                        Comment

                        • BassThatHz
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2006
                          • 153

                          #13
                          Originally posted by BWLover
                          Explain your set up please. I saw your equipment list. But how do you have your amplifiers and speakers configured. thanks
                          Y-splitter on the source, routed to two subwoofers and one pre-amp, Y-splitter again on the pre-outs, routed to four amps, 4 wires routed to two speakers, four binding posts in total for 1:1 connections (i.e. no jumpers used).


                          The way I look at it is that no matter what you do you have to split the signal from two signals (Left and Right) to share amongst 8 drivers, so IMO it doesn't really matter where you do the splitting & sharing... either inside a crossover network or with Y-splitters.
                          (
                          Unless of course you are using line-level pre-amp filtering and bypassing the crossover networks which is a totally different ball-game in that case.
                          )

                          Comment

                          • kmcheng
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2008
                            • 253

                            #14
                            I have a Bel Canto S300i (150w each channel) driving my 803D. Previously I have the Bel Canto driving the 805S.

                            The Bel Canto drove the 805S very well. Compared with my audition of the 805S at the dealer (who had a Krell integrated), I actually like the sound of my Bel Canto better. It is more controlled. The bass seemed tighter and less dominating. (Personally I don't like heavy bass.) There also seemed to be a little more depth -- the singer seems to be more forward, and the orchestra is positioned more to the back. However, none of this is scientific, since the comparison was not side-by-side and the acoustics at my home is certainly very different from the acoustics at the dealer.

                            The advantage of the Bel Canto is much less obvious with the 803D. My dealer was carrying Classe at the time and, on my request, he hooked the 803D with the Classe. It sounded grand and composed. More importantly, when he hooked up the 805S with the Classe, the difference from the 803D was immediately apparent. The FST and the fuller bass clearly distinguish the 803D from the 805S. With my Bel Canto, however, the jump in performance (from 805S to 803D) is less obvious. The Bel Canto still does more than a excellent job with the 803D, but I could totally see why someone would be willing to pay 4x the price of my Bel Canto (used from Audiogon) to achieve the Classe sound.

                            Some people comment that all Class D are created the same. I am not so sure. I have a Rotel 1085 powering my surround speakers. When I tried to drive my 803D and 803S with the Rotel, the sound seemed a little muffled compared to the Bel Canto. Perhaps it is due to the different power rating. Whatever the reason, the Bel Canto and the Rotel did not sound the same to me.

                            Comment

                            • wettou
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • May 2006
                              • 3389

                              #15
                              Originally posted by kmcheng
                              The advantage of the Bel Canto is much less obvious with the 803D. My dealer was carrying Classe at the time and, on my request, he hooked the 803D with the Classe. It sounded grand and composed. More importantly, when he hooked up the 805S with the Classe, the difference from the 803D was immediately apparent. The FST and the fuller bass clearly distinguish the 803D from the 805S. With my Bel Canto, however, the jump in performance (from 805S to 803D) is less obvious. The Bel Canto still does more than a excellent job with the 803D, but I could totally see why someone would be willing to pay 4x the price of my Bel Canto (used from Audiogon) to achieve the Classe sound.
                              Are you saying that Classé sounded better than Bel Canto?
                              Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                              Comment

                              • Glenee
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2006
                                • 253

                                #16
                                It is my understanding, from what I have researched and read, that 2010 will be a leap forward in D-Amps. Wyred 4 Sound is supposed to be coming out with their Signature/Reference Amps Soon. The new Bel Canto MK II Series was supposedly a Leap forward in their Amps.
                                The Seymour Amps that wettou pointed me too in his post, are cosmectically IMO the best looking, but hard to find any outside info on except from Seymour.
                                One thing is for sure I like the size and weight of all of them.

                                Comment

                                • wettou
                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                  • May 2006
                                  • 3389

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Glenee
                                  It is my understanding, from what I have researched and read, that 2010 will be a leap forward in D-Amps. Wyred 4 Sound is supposed to be coming out with their Signature/Reference Amps Soon.
                                  When?

                                  Originally posted by Glenee
                                  The new Bel Canto MK II Series was supposedly a Leap forward in their Amps.
                                  Is it, to justify going from $1999 to $2999 !


                                  Originally posted by Glenee
                                  The Seymour Amps that wettou pointed me too in his post, are cosmectically IMO the best looking, but hard to find any outside info on except from Seymour. One thing is for sure I like the size and weight of all of them.
                                  Yes that is what attracts me as well in addition they are extremely energy efficient and saving electricity

                                  Seymour AV has a 30 days money back guarantee.
                                  Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                  Comment

                                  • Glenee
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Aug 2006
                                    • 253

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by wettou
                                    When?
                                    I don't know, just the people over on the AVS Forum Have been talking about them. Can't get any Info.
                                    Is it, to justify going from $1999 to $2999 !
                                    Could be, Kal in his review said that they were close to the last model but better in lot's of Area's


                                    Yes that is what attracts me as well in addition they are extremely energy efficient and saving electricity

                                    Seymour AV has a 30 days money back guarantee.
                                    Wish they had a 3-Channel version ?

                                    Comment

                                    • wettou
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • May 2006
                                      • 3389

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Glenee
                                      Wish they had a 3-Channel version ?
                                      Here you are

                                      3 CH (3 x 500w) (MC3x500) - Multi-Channel Amplifiers

                                      For a simple 3ch setup to start with, or to add 3 more channels to your system. This amplifier is always upgradable at any time for the difference in retail cost


                                      Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                      Comment

                                      • Glenee
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Aug 2006
                                        • 253

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by wettou
                                        Here you are

                                        3 CH (3 x 500w) (MC3x500) - Multi-Channel Amplifiers

                                        For a simple 3ch setup to start with, or to add 3 more channels to your system. This amplifier is always upgradable at any time for the difference in retail cost


                                        I was talking about seymour amps. I got messed up in the reply format.I was answering your Question's and got outside the format window.

                                        Comment

                                        • kmcheng
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jan 2008
                                          • 253

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by wettou
                                          Are you saying that Classé sounded better than Bel Canto?
                                          Essentially, yes. Again, it is not a scientific comparison. I heard the Classe at the dealer and my Bel Canto at home. There are many variants here.

                                          All I can say is, the 803D does sound better at the dealer with the Classe than at my home with the Bel Canto. Therefore, I have always been wondering what a Classe amp might do in my home. However, the Bel Canto is doing a more than adequate job now to curb my curiosity and keep my money in my pocket. :W

                                          Comment

                                          • wettou
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • May 2006
                                            • 3389

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by kmcheng
                                            Essentially, yes. Again, it is not a scientific comparison. I heard the Classe at the dealer and my Bel Canto at home. There are many variants here.

                                            All I can say is, the 803D does sound better at the dealer with the Classe than at my home with the Bel Canto. Therefore, I have always been wondering what a Classe amp might do in my home. However, the Bel Canto is doing a more than adequate job now to curb my curiosity and keep my money in my pocket. :W
                                            Well one of the tings I don't get is why Bel Canto is so expensive when compared to the other that use ICE Power technologies.
                                            Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                            Comment

                                            • Industrial
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Mar 2009
                                              • 213

                                              #23
                                              I love my class D amp! New Rotel 15 series. Very clean sounding, not warm, not cold well at least to me. The center of the amp gets around skin temp and the rest stays cold. Its super light and looks really nice Using it with CM1's. Can see myself sticking with class D in the future. My plan is on Amps that are neutral and have the sources "flavor/color" the sound.

                                              Comment

                                              • BassThatHz
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Jul 2006
                                                • 153

                                                #24
                                                Generically speaking, if any brand states the word "ICEpower" anywhere in the text and are both nearly the same power rating, it is probably safe to assume they are basically equal in sound.

                                                Rotel: RB-1092, RB-1091
                                                Wyred 4 sound: W4 SX-1000
                                                D-Sonic: Ice Block 10001, MAGNUM 500M, MAGNUM 1000S
                                                Acoustic Reality: eAR 1001-REF MK2

                                                To my knowledge all the above should all be nearly identical because they all use the same patented Bang & Olufsen ICEpower 1000ASP module under the cover. The differences should be very small.

                                                The only way to know 100% for sure is to pop the cover off and check to see if the ICE-Module is connected directly to the posts and if it uses the exact same model type (or not), if it does it should all sound 99.99% the same.

                                                All amps have higher-and-higher distortion and also more-and-more roll-off the further up the frequency-scale you go, Class D more so... and perhaps that likeness imprints a similar sonical character to each class; however the question still remains: Can you actually hear the impact of all that stuff at 40khz/100/150/200khz? (I would think probably not.)

                                                Comment

                                                • Glenee
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Aug 2006
                                                  • 253

                                                  #25
                                                  I just started my research on Digital Amps, and I tell Ya I'm learning alot. These Forums are great. Do you know how much time and energy it would of took to gather this much info, going store to store, Bull Shitter to Bull Shitter Salesman to get the Low Down. Not to mention the cost of trying different units.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • wettou
                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                    • May 2006
                                                    • 3389

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Glenee
                                                    I just started my research on Digital Amps, and I tell Ya I'm learning alot. These Forums are great. Do you know how much time and energy it would of took to gather this much info, going store to store, Bull Shitter to Bull Shitter Salesman to get the Low Down. Not to mention the cost of trying different units.
                                                    Well don't call BelCanto or you will get an ear full as to how much better they are even so they use the same tech!! But the box looks nice That is a $2000 box :lol:
                                                    Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Glenee
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Aug 2006
                                                      • 253

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by wettou
                                                      Well don't call BelCanto or you will get an ear full as to how much better they are even so they use the same tech!! But the box looks nice That is a $2000 box :lol:
                                                      From all the Info I can get, that sure is starting to look like thats case. WITH Maybe a little House sound added in the circuit some where.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • kmcheng
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Jan 2008
                                                        • 253

                                                        #28
                                                        I don't get why Bel Canto is so expensive either, but there are other even more expensive options.

                                                        I picked Bel Canto mostly because of the look and size of the box. The 8-in width makes it the only box to fit my cabinet.

                                                        Audiogon is the way to go.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Glenee
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Aug 2006
                                                          • 253

                                                          #29
                                                          Would it really Cost so Much for Wyred 4 Sound to do something with their Cosmetics. If they would do something sleek and good looking they would have a serious leg up on the competition. Am I wrong on this ?

                                                          Comment

                                                          • wettou
                                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                                            • May 2006
                                                            • 3389

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Glenee
                                                            Would it really Cost so Much for Wyred 4 Sound to do something with their Cosmetics. If they would do something sleek and good looking they would have a serious leg up on the competition. Am I wrong on this ?
                                                            Yes it would be nice, they are coming out with a reference series that will look nicer and they will jack the price-up
                                                            Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Glenee
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Aug 2006
                                                              • 253

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by wettou
                                                              Yes it would be nice, they are coming out with a reference series that will look nicer and they will jack the price-up
                                                              Wettou, Do you have Info on these Reference Amps by Wyred 4 Sound ? I have read lot's of speculation, but No Info.
                                                              Thanks

                                                              Comment

                                                              • wettou
                                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                                • May 2006
                                                                • 3389

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Glenee
                                                                Wettou, Do you have Info on these Reference Amps by Wyred 4 Sound ? I have read lot's of speculation, but No Info.
                                                                Thanks
                                                                Unfortunately no info yet but them told me soon :roll:
                                                                Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                                Comment

                                                                • boarder1995
                                                                  Member
                                                                  • Sep 2009
                                                                  • 68

                                                                  #33
                                                                  I've finally hooked up my demo Class D amp this weekend on my 803D. I spent time listening to everything from pop, rock, jazz and much classical full orchestra to just piano. The amp is rated at 525w/ch x 2. I'm comparing (from memory) to a Lexicon, Behringer, Mac, and (directly in my home) to a Sunfire Cinema Grand. I plan to spend some more time this week in the evenings letting my ears get used to the different sound and see what else I can pick up on, but here's where I stand after last nights session...
                                                                  Right off the bat, I believe the bass is a bit more powerful and seems to dominate a bit more on certain music. Kind of cool. I suppose I'm a basshead. The volume capability out of the unit is great and doesn't seem to sweat it with heat from the little box. I notice I'm not as relaxed with the mid and particularly the highs. They seem a little less natural. Almost digitized. An extreme example of this is a satellite radio talk station that's really compressed and digitized - you can still hear and understand the talk host, but it's not pleasant. Ok, that's a really extreme example and the amp's nothing like that, but it's what it reminded me of. The amp still suprised me with bass control and impact, but the top end did not impress me. Is it a total loss? No, but I'd have a hard time keeping it with these B&W D speakers. Perhaps it'd work better with a more relaxed unit like Sonus Faber, but these B&W's need something better up top - too revealing. If I could get the impact and power on the bottom end that the D class gave me and the smoothness of a Mac or clean detail of a Classe up top, I'd have it made!
                                                                  More to come later this week as I break in my ears with this little 1kw beast.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Glenee
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Aug 2006
                                                                    • 253

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Hi Boarder,
                                                                    That is a D-Sonic Correct ?
                                                                    Where did you buy it ?
                                                                    They say they need at least 50 hrs time to settle in.
                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                    Glen

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • boarder1995
                                                                      Member
                                                                      • Sep 2009
                                                                      • 68

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Yes, this is a D-sonic unit. It's actually a demo unit that's got lots of hours on it and been pounded hard at times. I'll be returning it tomorrow as planned originally, but will try to spend some more quality time with it tonight and get more of an impression. I'm in Houston and have met personally with Dennis (great guy and very helpful), and that's how I got this unit to demo for a short while. I'll be reporting back to him as well with my thoughts. Remember, that's all they are though - my thoughts, whereas someone else may hear different.

                                                                      I actually spent some time with it at lunch today and was once again impressed with the bass impact generated by this 1kw amp. I played some rock and progressive rock for a while to warm things up (plus my wife wasn't home yet). Then settled down with some Beatles and Paul McCartney's amazing bass guitar line in Come Together, which really came through with great detail and physical impact, at least until I had to turn it down. Man, torn between the amp's bottom end and not totally on with its top end. The top end wasn't nearly as distracting this time either, perhaps because I'm getting used to the different sonic detail, or just different style of music and recording that's not as difficult up top.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Glenee
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Aug 2006
                                                                        • 253

                                                                        #36
                                                                        On the 803D's Is the Low End nice and tight with little lingering, or just in your face. It sound's like a set of Van Den Hul D-102 III interconnects might just do the trick, on that Top end.
                                                                        Be sure and let us know the End Evaluation.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Cruxis
                                                                          Member
                                                                          • Feb 2007
                                                                          • 30

                                                                          #37
                                                                          About 8 months ago I upgraded from a Creek Destiny Int. amp( 100 watts) to the bel canto Ref1000M mono block amps,
                                                                          to drive my 803D's. Obviously a big jump, but not in the way I envisioned. My expectations were that I would see a significant performance increase in the bass , and less so above that. I have been pleasantly surprised because I see a jump in performance across the board. What stands out the most is the total clarity ( but not sterile), and the improved dynamics. I never compared them to Classe, or McIntosh, because I thought they were a bit out of my range, so my opinion isnt based on much. The only gripe I have, is the bel cantos introduced a slight hum into my system that never existed before. I can only hear it at high volumes, but a bit annoying nevertheless.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • wettou
                                                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                                                            • May 2006
                                                                            • 3389

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Did you know that Ice amplification module only cost $125 for the ASX2 series which is the most advanced!!

                                                                            Bel Canto, Jeff Roland and other are making very nice profits.....

                                                                            Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Skyblue
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Jun 2009
                                                                              • 504

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by wettou
                                                                              Did you know that Ice amplification module only cost $125 for the ASX2 series which is the most advanced!!

                                                                              Bel Canto, Jeff Roland and other are making very nice profits.....

                                                                              http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/en/solutions/
                                                                              They sure do. THough you can't really buy the modules as a private person. That being said, I've got 4 of them here, which are going to power my future 5.1 system
                                                                              B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • wettou
                                                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                • May 2006
                                                                                • 3389

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Skyblue
                                                                                They sure do. THough you can't really buy the modules as a private person. That being said, I've got 4 of them here, which are going to power my future 5.1 system


                                                                                How did you get them?

                                                                                - Cost of the module from B&O Ice ASX2 $125 add to that a box and connectors and at the max you have $300!!


                                                                                Now pricing for one amp with the 500W @ 8Ω / 1000 W @ 4Ω module

                                                                                HighEnd for cool looking boxes

                                                                                - Halcro Logic MC 20 Amp $5999
                                                                                - Jeff Rowland Model 501
                                                                                $3500
                                                                                - BelCanto REF1000 $2999

                                                                                Medium Range
                                                                                - Rotel RB-1092 (stereo)
                                                                                $2462

                                                                                That is for the most expensive ones of course other firms are not doing to bad either

                                                                                - Seymour AV Ice Block 10001
                                                                                $1399
                                                                                http://www.seymourav.com/amps.asp

                                                                                - Acoustic Reality eAR 1001-REF MK2 $1499
                                                                                http://www.acoustic-reality.com/index1.html

                                                                                - Wyred 4 sound: W4S SX-1000 Monoblock
                                                                                $1199
                                                                                http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/site/74030/117839/shopping/shopping-view.html?pid=332075&b_id=&find_groupid=18046

                                                                                - Dsoni Magnum 500M
                                                                                $975
                                                                                http://www.d-sonic.net/

                                                                                As said in 6moons
                                                                                "While Jeff Rowland's recipe of audio jewelry, input transformers and -- on his truly upscale models -- overkill add-on power supplies is one way to fulfill traditional HighEnd expectations, the implied superiority of the stock 1000ASP ICEpower module also opens the doors for some enterprising manufacturer to keep things simple and truly affordable. Bona fide high-end performance for the masses?"

                                                                                I think I will stick with AB amps at least there is original design and at low volume you are in Class A

                                                                                Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Skyblue
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Jun 2009
                                                                                  • 504

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by wettou


                                                                                  How did you get them?


                                                                                  The black market Some company closed down, and a guy bougth their modules and I got 4 at about $500 a piece. Still, they should power my future surround setup just fine. Plan is 3x 600w monoblocks for fronts and one 250wx2 stereo amp for surrounds. All in all I expect them to be around $700 a piece total.

                                                                                  Originally posted by wettou
                                                                                  I think I will stick with AB amps at least there is original design
                                                                                  Originally posted by wettou
                                                                                  and at low volume you are in Class A

                                                                                  Later, if the economy permits, I'd like to get som ayre monoblocks or something.. We'll see. Right now, these blocks allow me outstanding amplification for a 800 series 5.1 system for less than $3000 total. Oh and they don't use very much current nor get hotter than my arm.
                                                                                  B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • style
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Feb 2006
                                                                                    • 1562

                                                                                    #42

                                                                                    and


                                                                                    Hi,

                                                                                    The Jeff Rowland is very great. with the B&W Signature and a Pagode.rack look great!!!


                                                                                    Style

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • wettou
                                                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                      • May 2006
                                                                                      • 3389

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Skyblue
                                                                                      The black market Some company closed down, and a guy bougth their modules and I got 4 at about $500 a piece. Still, they should power my future surround setup just fine. Plan is 3x 600w monoblocks for fronts and one 250wx2 stereo amp for surrounds. All in all I expect them to be around $700 a piece total.

                                                                                      Later, if the economy permits, I'd like to get som ayre monoblocks or something.. We'll see. Right now, these blocks allow me outstanding amplification for a 800 series 5.1 system for less than $3000 total. Oh and they don't use very much current nor get hotter than my arm.
                                                                                      What else do you need to make the amps beside the module?
                                                                                      Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • style
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Feb 2006
                                                                                        • 1562

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        - Jeff Rowland Model 501 $3500
                                                                                        a Piece?
                                                                                        in europa the JF 501 is at €. 4500.-/piece = 9000.- pair , $ 12200.- 8O 8O
                                                                                        Ice but hot in price!!

                                                                                        the JF as preampli " Criterium " or the integrat "Continuum"
                                                                                        (2x250 or 2x 500w. at 8ohm - 2 model available)



                                                                                        not bad, not bad: with the B&W sound good.

                                                                                        Style

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Skyblue
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • Jun 2009
                                                                                          • 504

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by wettou
                                                                                          What else do you need to make the amps beside the module?
                                                                                          Not much actually. They are complete amplifiers in themselves.
                                                                                          So, a box to keep them in, a wire from the board to the balanced input for hte monoblocks. Two small wires for sound out to the speaker. One wire for the power input. Some screws to attach it to the box, and then you need to connect a couple of pins in order to tell it if you want mono or stereo from it.

                                                                                          In principle you can almost wire it directly to the speaker Maybe even insert it into the bottom of a 800D
                                                                                          B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                                                                                          Comment

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