Amping for 803d

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  • swayback
    Member
    • Feb 2010
    • 38

    Amping for 803d

    Ok, so I've decided on the new 803D's. I am primarily interested in music but also need it to perform HT. But...

    Do I buy a multichannel or a dedicated two channel amp + another amp? Will my speakers perform differently with two separate amps?

    Do I use 3 channel for front 3 speakers and another 2 channel for surround for HT?

    I'm looking at Bryston, Classe and Spectron
    Any opinions?
  • htsteve
    Super Senior Member
    • Sep 2004
    • 1216

    #2
    swayback,

    You were looking at many good choices. The new 803D's should be quite excellent performers.

    Any of the amp scenarios you have listed can work. This is provided that any amp is around 200 watts or more to drive the 803D's. 800 series speakers, and especially the 803 and up, LOVE current.

    The main speakers tend to be the big power hogs in a system. Of your three scenarios, my recommendation is to get a stout, 'big' stereo amp for the 803D's. Then a multichannel amp for everything else. However, I know this can get expensive. So you can start with a nice 200 wpc X 5 amp and then add the stereo amp later.

    I have 802D's, HTM2D and 804S's. I started with a 200 X 5 amp. Then I added a 250 wpc X 2 stereo amp to drive the 802D's (with a nice perfromace boost in bass tightness and soundstage). I am about to trade in the 250 watt amp for a 400 watt stereo amp (coming next Monday).

    Stereo amps do not have to share power with anyone, as is the case in a multi-channel amp. They can devote all their power to driving only two speakers. The engineering and refinement also is better in a stereo amp. So a stereo amp will be better in almost every way. Detail, dynamics, soundstage, bass.

    The foundation of a great HT is a great two channel set-up.

    I have McIntosh amps. I demo'd Mac, Krell and Classe. All were exceptional performers. I liked the Mac's for the overall package with the B&W's. I also like the Classe refinement. Very clean. If at all possible, demo these units. It's a big investment. You dealer should have Classe if they are a B&W dealer.


    Hope this helps.

    Comment

    • ShadowZA
      Super Senior Member
      • Jan 2006
      • 1098

      #3
      Htsteve's advice is spot on, imho.

      Here's another idea more suited towards your centre speaker being an HTM2D or bigger: If your front end (including your centre speaker) is critical to you in terms of sound quality AND if you have sufficient financial resources available, you could consider a dedicated high-current 3-channel amp to drive your front end and use a lower powered stereo amp to drive your 2 surrounds.

      I'm doing just that ... am getting ready to place an order for the Krell Evolution 403e to drive my front end (as soon as I have details of its release). But then my front end consists of the same 3 speakers. Afaik, both Classé and McIntosh have 3-channel amps (don't know about Bryston & Spectron). I'm not sure as to their latest spec details though.

      Good luck and please keep us posted.

      Comment

      • brunsje
        Junior Member
        • Jan 2009
        • 21

        #4
        Another Idea

        Please consider going MonoBlocks. You'll be happier in the long run!! Bryston, Krell, MacIntosh, Classe all offer monoblocks.

        This option gives you the most flexibility, looks great, and minimizes speaker cable runs.

        Good Luck, JohnnyB

        Comment

        • emig5m
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2008
          • 646

          #5
          Originally posted by htsteve
          I have McIntosh amps. I demo'd Mac, Krell and Classe. All were exceptional performers. I liked the Mac's for the overall package with the B&W's. I also like the Classe refinement. Very clean. If at all possible, demo these units. It's a big investment. You dealer should have Classe if they are a B&W dealer.
          Did you demo the different brands in the same room/system? What was it about the Mac that you liked? Did it shape/color the sound in a certain way that you liked? Play louder/clearer? etc?

          Comment

          • htsteve
            Super Senior Member
            • Sep 2004
            • 1216

            #6
            Originally posted by emig5m
            Did you demo the different brands in the same room/system? What was it about the Mac that you liked? Did it shape/color the sound in a certain way that you liked? Play louder/clearer? etc?
            emig5m,

            I did in fact audition all three of these in the same room at my dealer. All three of these brands are top notch performers, the differences between them are not night and day. But there were some differences to my ears.

            At the time I was running Rotel separates (which I liked very much, a lot of performance for the money).

            Obviously, being in the same room made the comparison much easier. Below is my general impression for each brand.

            Krell - Best bass. Visceral.
            Classe - Very clean and detailed midrange/high end. Leanest bass of the three (this is relative to the other two in the demo. The bass was still quite good)
            Mac - Best combination. Good bass, very good midrange/high end. Smooth is the word I like to use.


            To me the Mac presented the best overall package. I would have been happy with either of the other two. But the Mac's made me feel the most comfortable and satisfied.

            Everyones tastes and ears are different, that's why demoing is so important.


            Hope this helps.

            Comment

            • wettou
              Ultra Senior Member
              • May 2006
              • 3389

              #7
              Originally posted by htsteve
              800 series speakers, and especially the 803 and up, LOVE current.

              The main speakers tend to be the big power hogs in a system.

              I have 802D's, HTM2D and 804S's. I started with a 200 X 5 amp. Then I added a 250 wpc X 2 stereo amp to drive the 802D's (with a nice perfromace boost in bass tightness and soundstage). I am about to trade in the 250 watt amp for a 400 watt stereo amp (coming next Monday).

              Stereo amps do not have to share power with anyone, as is the case in a multi-channel amp. They can devote all their power to driving only two speakers. The engineering and refinement also is better in a stereo amp. So a stereo amp will be better in almost every way. Detail, dynamics, soundstage, bass.

              The foundation of a great HT is a great two channel set-up.

              I have McIntosh amps. I demo'd Mac, Krell and Classe. All were exceptional performers. I liked the Mac's for the overall package with the B&W's. I also like the Classe refinement. Very clean. If at all possible, demo these units. It's a big investment. You dealer should have Classe if they are a B&W dealer. Hope this helps.
              What does that mean LOVE CURRENT? the 802D have 90db sensitivity so why more amplification?

              So May be I should get three CT-600?
              Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

              Comment

              • htsteve
                Super Senior Member
                • Sep 2004
                • 1216

                #8
                wettou,

                My experience with the 800 series speakers, and especially the 802D's, is that the more current that is available to the speaker, the better the control of the drivers. And the better the performance. More soundstage, definitely better bass.

                My 802D's have had Rotel, Mac multi-channel and a Mac stereo amp. Each one was able to deliver more current to the 802D's. I am trading in the MC252 (250 wpc X 2) in for an MC402 (400 wpc X 2, plus about twice the current delivery of the MC252). So I anticipate things will continue to improve.


                I assume the CT-600's are the new Classe amps. 3 600-watt monoblocks would be pretty fun.


                Hope this helps.

                Comment

                • ninja12
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 181

                  #9
                  Originally posted by brunsje
                  Please consider going MonoBlocks. You'll be happier in the long run!! Bryston, Krell, MacIntosh, Classe all offer monoblocks.

                  This option gives you the most flexibility, looks great, and minimizes speaker cable runs.

                  Good Luck, JohnnyB
                  swayback

                  If you decide that you want to go monoblock, I strongly suggest you add the Anthem P5 to your list. This is a 5 channel amp, and each channel is a monoblock. If 1 channel goes out, the other 4 will continue to work. I must warn you that this is a monster amp. It weighs in at 135 pounds. It's 325w into 8 ohms, 500w into 4 ohms, and 675w into 2 ohms and this is with all channels driven. I have the 802D and the HTM1D. I am using the Anthem P2 for the 802Ds, and the Anthem P5 for the HTM1D, CCM 817s, and SCMS. It drives everything very nicely and with ease. Now, the P5 does call for a dedicated 30 amp line because it has 2 power cords so I guess each one gets 15 amps. I did install a new line. Actually, I installed 2 new dedicated line. I installed a 30 amp line for the P5 and a 20 amp line for the P2. I have hear people say that they have run the P5 on a 15 and 20 amp line without any problems. In the end, I can honestly say that my system hits real hard and everything is nice and clean.

                  Anyway, good luck on your purchase. :T

                  Comment

                  • wettou
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • May 2006
                    • 3389

                    #10
                    Originally posted by htsteve
                    wettou, My experience with the 800 series speakers, and especially the 802D's, is that the more current that is available to the speaker, the better the control of the drivers. And the better the performance. More soundstage, definitely better bass. My 802D's have had Rotel, Mac multi-channel and a Mac stereo amp. Each one was able to deliver more current to the 802D's. I am trading in the MC252 (250 wpc X 2) in for an MC402 (400 wpc X 2, plus about twice the current delivery of the MC252). So I anticipate things will continue to improve. I assume the CT-600's are the new Classe amps. 3 600-watt monoblocks would be pretty fun. Hope this helps.
                    My dilema is space? Plus I have a CA-5200 and would hate to waist it, what if I were to get the CT-5300 and CA-5200 in Bi-Amp configuration?

                    Any thoughts

                    Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                    Comment

                    • emig5m
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2008
                      • 646

                      #11
                      Originally posted by wettou
                      What does that mean LOVE CURRENT? the 802D have 90db sensitivity so why more amplification?

                      So May be I should get three CT-600?
                      Well I had speakers with a 102dB sensitivity and even with that ultra high sensitivity I could tell the difference between using an AVR amp and a true dedicated power amp. When I dropped down to using surround receivers from stereo separates I noticed the bass thinned out and was much less punchy. I think it's all about the ohm drops and having the current on demand that makes a more robust amp sound better on some speakers regardless of efficiency. Efficiency and watts is only one key to the puzzle. Ohm and current draw is another.

                      Comment

                      • stuofsci02
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Nov 2009
                        • 1241

                        #12
                        Originally posted by wettou
                        What does that mean LOVE CURRENT? the 802D have 90db sensitivity so why more amplification?

                        So May be I should get three CT-600?
                        Yes... I agree... This whole "loving current" thing is a little questionable.. The reality is that power is equal to voltage * current. An amp that can produce more current, can therefore produce more power assuming the voltage output is the same.

                        If the speaker resistance ranges from 2 to 8 ohms lets say, then it is obvious that to get the power at the low resistances, the amp must be able to deliver more current. But all this means is that the amp should be able to deliver its power at low speaker impedance.

                        Now more then likely people are finding that an amp with a big dynamic headroom (where is can output more power then it is rated for short bursts) will be better sonically since the amp won't distort.

                        I don't believe this means the speakers love current, but rather they can benefit with an amp that is stable when the power requirements are high, and at frequencies where the speaker impedance is low.
                        Main System:
                        B&W 801D
                        Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                        Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                        Oppo BDP-105
                        Squeezebox Touch


                        Second System:
                        B&W CM7
                        Emotiva UMC-1
                        Emotiva UPA-2
                        Oppo BDP-83SE
                        Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                        Comment

                        • wettou
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • May 2006
                          • 3389

                          #13
                          Originally posted by stuofsci02
                          Yes... I agree... This whole "loving current" thing is a little questionable.. The reality is that power is equal to voltage * current. An amp that can produce more current, can therefore produce more power assuming the voltage output is the same.

                          If the speaker resistance ranges from 2 to 8 ohms lets say, then it is obvious that to get the power at the low resistances, the amp must be able to deliver more current. But all this means is that the amp should be able to deliver its power at low speaker impedance.

                          Now more then likely people are finding that an amp with a big dynamic headroom (where is can output more power then it is rated for short bursts) will be better sonically since the amp won't distort.

                          I don't believe this means the speakers love current, but rather they can benefit with an amp that is stable when the power requirements are high, and at frequencies where the speaker impedance is low.
                          How much power can come out of a 15 or 20 amp socket 8O
                          Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                          Comment

                          • stuofsci02
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Nov 2009
                            • 1241

                            #14
                            Originally posted by wettou
                            How much power can come out of a 15 or 20 amp socket 8O
                            A 15 amp 120VAC outlet can provide about 1800 watts of power. A 20 amp circuit can provide about 2400 watts. That said, you should generally not size your breaker for more then 80% regular use.
                            Main System:
                            B&W 801D
                            Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                            Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                            Oppo BDP-105
                            Squeezebox Touch


                            Second System:
                            B&W CM7
                            Emotiva UMC-1
                            Emotiva UPA-2
                            Oppo BDP-83SE
                            Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                            Comment

                            • wettou
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • May 2006
                              • 3389

                              #15
                              Originally posted by stuofsci02
                              A 15 amp 120VAC outlet can provide about 1800 watts of power. A 20 amp circuit can provide about 2400 watts. That said, you should generally not size your breaker for more then 80% regular use.
                              So with that said, The Anthem P5 claims 350 watts/ch for all 5 channels. If this implies continuous power for all channels driven, than the amp must consume (350*5) / 0.40 (efficiency factor of class AB) = 4375 watts for the power section alone.

                              This is an impossible feat considering that the common wall socket can only produce 120V * 20A = 2400 watts.

                              This means you must plug this bad boy into its own dedicated line of 36A to achieve these power levels, assuming the power supply is up for the task and the wall socket is capable of delivering about 36A which is 16amps greater than a standard receptacle.

                              I thought UL federates power receptacles to 20A max for safety reasons!
                              Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                              Comment

                              • MikeFL52
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2007
                                • 118

                                #16
                                Originally posted by ninja12
                                swayback

                                If you decide that you want to go monoblock, I strongly suggest you add the Anthem P5 to your list. This is a 5 channel amp, and each channel is a monoblock. If 1 channel goes out, the other 4 will continue to work. I must warn you that this is a monster amp. It weighs in at 135 pounds. It's 325w into 8 ohms, 500w into 4 ohms, and 675w into 2 ohms and this is with all channels driven. I have the 802D and the HTM1D. I am using the Anthem P2 for the 802Ds, and the Anthem P5 for the HTM1D, CCM 817s, and SCMS. It drives everything very nicely and with ease. Now, the P5 does call for a dedicated 30 amp line because it has 2 power cords so I guess each one gets 15 amps. I did install a new line. Actually, I installed 2 new dedicated line. I installed a 30 amp line for the P5 and a 20 amp line for the P2. I have hear people say that they have run the P5 on a 15 and 20 amp line without any problems. In the end, I can honestly say that my system hits real hard and everything is nice and clean.

                                Anyway, good luck on your purchase. :T

                                +1
                                It is an amazing amp, rock solid down to very low (almost a short) impedance levels. I had two 20 amp lines installed from the breaker box to supply it with power.
                                Downside it is very large and very heavy and will not fit in most non-specialty racks.

                                Comment

                                • ninja12
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Mar 2007
                                  • 181

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by wettou
                                  So with that said, The Anthem P5 claims 350 watts/ch for all 5 channels. If this implies continuous power for all channels driven, than the amp must consume (350*5) / 0.40 (efficiency factor of class AB) = 4375 watts for the power section alone.

                                  This is an impossible feat considering that the common wall socket can only produce 120V * 20A = 2400 watts.

                                  This means you must plug this bad boy into its own dedicated line of 36A to achieve these power levels, assuming the power supply is up for the task and the wall socket is capable of delivering about 36A which is 16amps greater than a standard receptacle.

                                  I thought UL federates power receptacles to 20A max for safety reasons!
                                  The P5 is 325 per channel with a max of 3600 watts. That's the reason why it requires a 30 amp dedicated line. The 325 watts is 8 ohms. 4 ohms is 500 watts and 1 ohms is 675 watts. And that is with all channels driven.

                                  Comment

                                  • stuofsci02
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2009
                                    • 1241

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by wettou
                                    So with that said, The Anthem P5 claims 350 watts/ch for all 5 channels. If this implies continuous power for all channels driven, than the amp must consume (350*5) / 0.40 (efficiency factor of class AB) = 4375 watts for the power section alone.

                                    This is an impossible feat considering that the common wall socket can only produce 120V * 20A = 2400 watts.

                                    This means you must plug this bad boy into its own dedicated line of 36A to achieve these power levels, assuming the power supply is up for the task and the wall socket is capable of delivering about 36A which is 16amps greater than a standard receptacle.

                                    I thought UL federates power receptacles to 20A max for safety reasons!
                                    Yes, but I think it has two plugs for two separate 20A circuits... Just remeber that even at moderate listening levels most amps are only running about 20watt/channel. It is only on the spike and transients that the speaker draws more power, so you are not drawing huge amounts of power continously...

                                    Just remember, a full size oven running on broil draws about 3400 watts.. And that is enough to heat your oven up over 500 degrees.. Eventually all power from your stereo, (even sound) ends up as heat. If you were constantly drawing over 4000 watts with an Anthem P5, your house would get pretty hot in a hurry.
                                    Main System:
                                    B&W 801D
                                    Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                    Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                    Oppo BDP-105
                                    Squeezebox Touch


                                    Second System:
                                    B&W CM7
                                    Emotiva UMC-1
                                    Emotiva UPA-2
                                    Oppo BDP-83SE
                                    Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                    Comment

                                    • wettou
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • May 2006
                                      • 3389

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by stuofsci02
                                      Yes, but I think it has two plugs for two separate 20A circuits... Just remember that even at moderate listening levels most amps are only running about 20watt/channel. It is only on the spike and transients that the speaker draws more power, so you are not drawing huge amounts of power continuously... Just remember, a full size oven running on broil draws about 3400 watts.. And that is enough to heat your oven up over 500 degrees.. Eventually all power from your stereo, (even sound) ends up as heat. If you were constantly drawing over 4000 watts with an Anthem P5, your house would get pretty hot in a hurry.
                                      So I should just use a 100W pure Classe A like Pass Labs
                                      Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                      Comment

                                      • emig5m
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Aug 2008
                                        • 646

                                        #20
                                        I'm not messing around with my next amp purchase. I'm going to get an amp with dual flux capacitors per channel and my own dedicated nuclear power reactor to power them with, lol. :rofl: :B

                                        Comment

                                        • stuofsci02
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Nov 2009
                                          • 1241

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by wettou
                                          So I should just use a 100W pure Classe A like Pass Labs
                                          No.. You should audition as many amps as you can and purchase the one that sounds the best to your ears and fits your budget.

                                          BTW, my amp is 130watt/channel and is the best sounding amp to me that fit my budget..
                                          Main System:
                                          B&W 801D
                                          Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                          Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                          Oppo BDP-105
                                          Squeezebox Touch


                                          Second System:
                                          B&W CM7
                                          Emotiva UMC-1
                                          Emotiva UPA-2
                                          Oppo BDP-83SE
                                          Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                          Comment

                                          • wettou
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • May 2006
                                            • 3389

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by emig5m
                                            I'm not messing around with my next amp purchase. I'm going to get an amp with dual flux capacitors per channel and my own dedicated nuclear power reactor to power them with, lol. :rofl: :B
                                            Sounds great
                                            Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                            Comment

                                            • wettou
                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                              • May 2006
                                              • 3389

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by stuofsci02
                                              No.. You should audition as many amps as you can and purchase the one that sounds the best to your ears and fits your budget.

                                              BTW, my amp is 130watt/channel and is the best sounding amp to me that fit my budget..
                                              Yes I agree but you know it is still so tempting to get better :W Just expensive addiction
                                              Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                              Comment

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