Who here has biamped, and didnt like the sound?

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  • WelshOne
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 117

    Who here has biamped, and didnt like the sound?

    Hi All,

    Out of curiosity, twice now I have biamped my 803D's with my Class D Rotel 1575, and found the sound faster, and bass maybe tighter, but the sound was quite aggressive and forward in its presentation.

    Ive just tried (loaned from dealer) an Audionet IV, in biamp config on the 803D's, and had the same experience. The sound was faster and tighter, but very edgy, hard.

    Its as if biamping, to my ears, just alters the coherance of the music?

    Switch back to stereo and the sound is softer, more relaxing and generally more musical?

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks

    David
  • SoundEngine355
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2008
    • 313

    #2
    Remember all bi-amping is doing is having 1 channel power the tweeter/midrange and 1 channel dedicated to the woofers.

    For example if the 1575 outputs 250W/8, instead of that 250W being used by all three type of drivers, now the T/M have 250W to use and the 3 woofers have 250W to used.

    I had the 800D's with a pair of CA-M400's, I bi-amped one speaker for testing and found the bass response was better and the midrange was stronger, tweeter was the same as it only uses about 5-10W max.
    SoundEngine355

    -------------------
    [Music] B&W 800D | Classe CDP202 +M400s | Velodyne DD15

    Comment

    • WelshOne
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 117

      #3
      Originally posted by SoundEngine355
      Remember all bi-amping is doing is having 1 channel power the tweeter/midrange and 1 channel dedicated to the woofers.

      For example if the 1575 outputs 250W/8, instead of that 250W being used by all three type of drivers, now the T/M have 250W to use and the 3 woofers have 250W to used.

      I had the 800D's with a pair of CA-M400's, I bi-amped one speaker for testing and found the bass response was better and the midrange was stronger, tweeter was the same as it only uses about 5-10W max.
      Yes I understand how it works, I was just curious who, if at all, experienced a sound they did not like from biamping?

      Comment

      • wettou
        Ultra Senior Member
        • May 2006
        • 3389

        #4
        Originally posted by WelshOne
        Hi All, Out of curiosity, twice now I have biamped my 803D's with my Class D Rotel 1575, and found the sound faster, and bass maybe tighter, but the sound was quite aggressive and forward in its presentation. Ive just tried (loaned from dealer) an Audionet IV, in biamp config on the 803D's, and had the same experience. The sound was faster and tighter, but very edgy, hard. Its as if biamping, to my ears, just alters the coherance of the music? Switch back to stereo and the sound is softer, more relaxing and generally more musical? Any thoughts? Thanks David
        Interesting I tried an experiment with my 802D and the CA-5200 and really liked the improved spectrum of clarity it sounded as so the speakers were breathing better!! Music was definitely better

        I would like to evaluate CA-M400 for mono vs getting an other CA-5300 to biamp!
        Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

        Comment

        • mb225
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 131

          #5
          I think you need to have a better understanding of your speakers if you are going to bi-amp. I read an article a few months ago (found with google) about how most ppl try to bi-amp with equal power ratings to the top and bottom. From what I understand, that will not always work. It is really dependant on your speakers, crossover slopes and cut-offs, etc. Some configurations require power to be distributed 50/50 (lows/highs) other might call for 70/30 (lows/highs). If bi-amping sounds aggressive, you might have too much going to the top.

          I know you can by in-line controls to adjust the balance between the amps.

          At least this is my understanding of it.

          Does anyone know if B&W 800's should be bi-amped at 50/50? You might want to ask B&W support. :huh:

          Comment

          • theblue
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2009
            • 116

            #6
            interesting... I almost think you might be disliking things about your speaker that you can more easily hear with bi-powering.
            Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
            rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
            B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
            a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

            Comment

            • WelshOne
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 117

              #7
              Originally posted by theblue
              I suspect that you like the characteristics of the rotel amp over the Audionet and that you dislike has nothing to do with bipowering.
              No, because both amps in biamp config gave a similar presentation??

              Maybe im wiring it wrong?

              Im also getting a new problem biamping with the 1575, the right 803D is distorting after 20/30 seconds of play?

              Ill post a copy of my wiring description now?

              Comment

              • WelshOne
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 117

                #8
                taken from different thread......:

                Left Pre Out (1570) - Y Phono Splitter - Two pairs of phonos - One Phono into main left amp input channel - 2nd phono into rear left input channel. Same set up again from Right Pre Out.

                Left Speaker - Bi wire speaker cable - positive wires to both positive speaker terminals - 1st positive wire to main left amp channel input - 2nd positive wire to rear left channel input.

                Same again for negative wire/amp channel.

                Then when switching on the pre/pro, there is quite a loud pop from the speakers, and you can see the bass drivers suck in/out briefly. Music appears fine for a few seconds, then the right speakers HF becomes distorted.

                I swapped the speaker wires around and it made no difference, the right speaker did it again?

                I was and still am very confused?

                Any thoughts?

                And to top it off, im now getting distortion from the right speaker when biamping with the 1575, its as if the speaker or the amp doesnt like it? Switc back to stereo or a different amp and it disappears?

                I wonder if this has something to do with the way the amp modules are configured, i.e. the way they share power off each other?

                Comment

                • theblue
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 116

                  #9
                  I missed that the first time and just edited my post.. see above.
                  Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                  rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                  B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                  a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                  Comment

                  • WelshOne
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 117

                    #10
                    Originally posted by theblue
                    interesting... I almost think you might be disliking things about your speaker that you can more easily hear with bi-powering.
                    That is a possibility?

                    Comment

                    • theblue
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 116

                      #11
                      Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always thought that in theory you can never have too much power as long as it's clean and you don't push your speakers into to distortion.
                      Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                      rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                      B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                      a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                      Comment

                      • mb225
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 131

                        #12
                        Originally posted by WelshOne
                        Left Speaker - Bi wire speaker cable - positive wires to both positive speaker terminals - 1st positive wire to main left amp channel input - 2nd positive wire to rear left channel input.

                        Any thoughts?
                        As you know (from my other tread), I have been playing with speaker cables a lot lately. I asked a few cable companies about using a "bi-wire" to "Bi-amp". They all came back with the same response, "NO!!"

                        They said if I was going to bi-amp, I would need to use separate speaker cables for each amp. My guess is, you have a crossed wire somewhere in the cable.

                        Comment

                        • WelshOne
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 117

                          #13
                          Originally posted by mb225
                          As you know (from my other tread), I have been playing with speaker cables a lot lately. I asked a few cable companies about using a "bi-wire" to "Bi-amp". They all came back with the same response, "NO!!"

                          They said if I was going to bi-amp, I would need to use separate speaker cables for each amp. My guess is, you have a crossed wire somewhere in the cable.
                          thats also interesting?

                          Comment

                          • audioqueso
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Nov 2004
                            • 1930

                            #14
                            I've tried bi-amping 4 times. All with my 805's.

                            1) Marantz SR6400 receiver
                            2) Parasound HCA-2205A amp
                            3) Marantz SR7002 receiver
                            4) Emotiva XPA-5 amp

                            I didn't really hear any noticeable improvements using the amps. Using the receivers, on the other hand, that had a big improvement. I used the A+B speaker option to power tweeter/mid-range. I think the reason I heard such an improvement both times with the receivers is because the receiver just don't put out enough quality power compared to the dedicated amps.
                            B&W 804S/Velodyne SPL-1000R/Anthem MRX720

                            Comment

                            • PewterTA
                              Moderator
                              • Nov 2004
                              • 2901

                              #15
                              I haven't biamped with two identical amps... never had two identical ones...but I did with a Rotel RB-1080 & RMB-1095 and didn't care for it. I think it's because of how different the amps are.

                              What I did do is wire my 604s3s seperately to each binding post on my RB-1090 and it definitely made a difference by clearing up the sound in the mid and high range. It removed the "heavy lower" sound to most voices that I didn't even know was there. At first I felt like I was missing something, then I realized I was hearing the backwave interference from the bass drivers going through the link between the binding posts. I also remedied this by putting a 10ft wire between the binding post and it did a similar effect though not as complete as going to both binding posts on the amp.

                              I'm sure two identical amps would do a simiar thing. Now I just need another RB-1090! Or maybe 4 CAM-400s or Emotiva XPA-1s!

                              Course first comes the Ardents that I need to build. hee hee.
                              Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                              -Dan

                              Comment

                              • wettou
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • May 2006
                                • 3389

                                #16
                                I bi-amped 802Ds with the CA-5200 and really liked the sound :T

                                Yes you do need two sets of speaker cables:B
                                Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                Comment

                                • Mark_NZ
                                  Member
                                  • Apr 2007
                                  • 51

                                  #17
                                  I have bi-amped the my previous 804S and currently my 803D. I have previously bi-amped with Marantz SR9300 AV Receiver, Marantz SM17SA stereo amplifiers and currently Cambridge Audio 840W stereo amplifiers.
                                  Each time I heard a more stable soundstage, more detail with a relaxed presentation without any downsides.
                                  I believe the trick to get the best performance out of bi-amping is to use identical amplifiers and ideally a stereo amplifier for each channel because the internal grounding of the stereo amplifier will minimise chance of ground loops and additional noise. It is critical to ensure that your sytem references a single common ground. In a multi-amplifier system, the preamplifier is the logical place to reference a single ground point.

                                  Comment

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