kevlar midrange "Quack"

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  • Relentless
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2007
    • 317

    kevlar midrange "Quack"

    I check out Higherfi.com often to see things I will never afford, but they have heard some of the most expensive speakers made and they have a section where they rate the speakers they have listened to. The 800D has a B- grade and I think the best rating they gave to a speaker is a B. They have comments on the speakers and they said that the 800D is Balanced and on the negative side they point out the Kevlar "quack".... what the hell are they referring too?
    I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive safely at death...
    Lou
  • omar7631
    Member
    • Sep 2009
    • 39

    #2
    I think they must of heard them with an aflack commercial. :rofl:
    B&W 804s
    B&W htm3s
    B&W dm601 s3
    Outlaw lfm-1 EX x 2
    Denon 2808ci
    Emotiva XPA-5
    Emotiva XPA-2
    Sony PS3

    Comment

    • Briz vegas
      Super Senior Member
      • Mar 2005
      • 1199

      #3
      Kevlar is yellow. 3 out of 3 blind tests failed to reveal a difference between kevlar yellow and duck yelllow.

      Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
      Siamese :evil: :twisted:

      Comment

      • Top Cat
        Member
        • Jan 2010
        • 30

        #4
        From what I have read when the kevlar gets older it may get out of shape and cause it to make a quack sound. If that happens you are supposed to take the driver out and message it gently with your fingers and that is supposed help the kevlar get back in shape. I know it sounds strange but that is what I heard and read about the problem.

        Comment

        • Relentless
          Senior Member
          • Jul 2007
          • 317

          #5
          Originally posted by Top Cat
          From what I have read when the kevlar gets older it may get out of shape and cause it to make a quack sound. If that happens you are supposed to take the driver out and message it gently with your fingers and that is supposed help the kevlar get back in shape. I know it sounds strange but that is what I heard and read about the problem.
          I have never read that. Do people have an estimate on how old before this happens? I would guess environment has a lot to do with its aging also.
          I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive safely at death...
          Lou

          Comment

          • Mark_NZ
            Member
            • Apr 2007
            • 51

            #6
            The quack refers to the tonal footprint of the Kevlar midrange. Every driver unit has a coloration based on the design and material used for the cone.

            The Kevlar FST unit is different to most drive units designs in that instead of the ideal pistonic behavior in it's operating frequency range, it breaks up at higher frequencies, but in a controlled manner. This results in the radiating surface decreasing as the frequency increases to better match the tweeter’s radiating surface at cross-over frequency. While the ideal loudspeaker would use drive units that are pistonic through-out their operating range (e.g. B&W Nautilus) it will have to be at least a 4 way design to allow a gradual step change in radiating surfaces at cross-over frequencies.

            The best review that I read of a B&W loudspeaker is the Hifi World Sep 2006 on the 801D. Overall it is a rave review of the 801D concluding by "These are best 801s ever, and lay credible claim to being the best loudspeakers ever too."

            The review is excellent in that fully describes the strengths and weaknesses of the 801D design. Here is a quote on the only weakness highlighted: "…I'm loathe to talk about the downsides of the 801Ds, because their overall performance is so incredibly strong, but if pressed, I'd say I was least impressed by one facet of the midband. The Kevlar cone has a certain tonal footprint, which the NS1000M is able to spotlight quite starkly. It's very good tonally ... but there is a slight 'glassy' quack to it that stops is from claiming the mantle of being utterly transparent'....it's a subtle phenomenon and better described as 'character' rather than coloration. This isn’t really a criticism (the Yams have a slight metallic clang, the Tannoys a slight papery dryness, the Quads a slight wooliness, so you’re never going to get perfection)…".

            Personally, I find the FST midrange good but a bit variable over the operating range – e.g. female voices are sublime but male voices a bit chesty. I believe that the Kevlar FST midrange is excellent at tracking macro dynamics (i.e. can track soft to very loud transient swings cleanly), but slightly smoothes over the micro-dynamics (the subtle harmonics riding the main transient wave).

            All loudspeaker design is balancing act of compromises, but similiar to the reviewer of the 801D, I have found that the strengths of my 803D to outweigh it’s weaknesses.

            Comment

            • Relentless
              Senior Member
              • Jul 2007
              • 317

              #7
              Originally posted by Mark_NZ
              The quack refers to the tonal footprint of the Kevlar midrange. Every driver unit has a coloration based on the design and material used for the cone.

              The Kevlar FST unit is different to most drive units designs in that instead of the ideal pistonic behavior in it's operating frequency range, it breaks up at higher frequencies, but in a controlled manner. This results in the radiating surface decreasing as the frequency increases to better match the tweeter’s radiating surface at cross-over frequency. While the ideal loudspeaker would use drive units that are pistonic through-out their operating range (e.g. B&W Nautilus) it will have to be at least a 4 way design to allow a gradual step change in radiating surfaces at cross-over frequencies.

              The best review that I read of a B&W loudspeaker is the Hifi World Sep 2006 on the 801D. Overall it is a rave review of the 801D concluding by "These are best 801s ever, and lay credible claim to being the best loudspeakers ever too."

              The review is excellent in that fully describes the strengths and weaknesses of the 801D design. Here is a quote on the only weakness highlighted: "…I'm loathe to talk about the downsides of the 801Ds, because their overall performance is so incredibly strong, but if pressed, I'd say I was least impressed by one facet of the midband. The Kevlar cone has a certain tonal footprint, which the NS1000M is able to spotlight quite starkly. It's very good tonally ... but there is a slight 'glassy' quack to it that stops is from claiming the mantle of being utterly transparent'....it's a subtle phenomenon and better described as 'character' rather than coloration. This isn’t really a criticism (the Yams have a slight metallic clang, the Tannoys a slight papery dryness, the Quads a slight wooliness, so you’re never going to get perfection)…".

              Personally, I find the FST midrange good but a bit variable over the operating range – e.g. female voices are sublime but male voices a bit chesty. I believe that the Kevlar FST midrange is excellent at tracking macro dynamics (i.e. can track soft to very loud transient swings cleanly), but slightly smooths over the micro-dynamics (the subtle harmonics riding the main transient wave).

              All loudspeaker design is balancing act of compromises, but similar to the reviewer of the 801D, I have found that the strengths of my 803D to outweigh it’s weaknesses.
              Thank you for clearing that up for me :T
              I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive safely at death...
              Lou

              Comment

              • Top Cat
                Member
                • Jan 2010
                • 30

                #8
                Here is what I read on the subject also...http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/spe...27/272692.html

                Comment

                • boarder1995
                  Member
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 68

                  #9
                  Now when I look and listen to my 803D, I'll be thinking man that yellow driver seems to say "Quack" to me. That's a problem with reading forums, besides all the misguided information about speakers and equipment and how they'll sound to you, is the thoughts they put in my mind of what I'll hear if I do this or that. Perhaps I too impressionable.

                  Comment

                  • beden1
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Oct 2006
                    • 1676

                    #10
                    Originally posted by boarder1995
                    Now when I look and listen to my 803D, I'll be thinking man that yellow driver seems to say "Quack" to me. Perhaps I too impressionable.
                    Well, if it quacks like a duck! :B

                    Comment

                    • dknightd
                      Senior Member
                      • Mar 2006
                      • 621

                      #11
                      I've always thought there was something strange going on near the cross over frequency between the midrange and tweeter. I wonder if this is the "quack" refered to? Adding room treatments at first reflection points seemed to help quite a bit (especially on the ceiling in my case)

                      Comment

                      • Space
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 118

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Mark_NZ
                        Personally, I find the FST midrange good but a bit variable over the operating range – e.g. female voices are sublime but male voices a bit chesty.
                        Are you sure the chesty range is covered by the mid? Seems like that would be a characteristic of the woofers.

                        As for the quack, I don't see how this reviewer can say that when the people who own the speakers don't hear it. Now, don't go listening for a quack just because this joker said it was there, because your imagination will play tricks on you!

                        Comment

                        • ckunstadt
                          Junior Member
                          • Aug 2004
                          • 5

                          #13
                          Originally posted by dknightd
                          I've always thought there was something strange going on near the cross over frequency between the midrange and tweeter. I wonder if this is the "quack" refered to? Adding room treatments at first reflection points seemed to help quite a bit (especially on the ceiling in my case)
                          oh. nice tip.
                          I have been hearing something similar (it seems) on my new-to-me N803s.
                          I would call it a ringing above the vocals. I find it more pronounced with female vocals. I put my ear close to one speaker and i agree that it sounds like it's at the point in the frequency range that gets spilt across the tweeter and the mid-range. It makes me wonder if this perceived "peak" would show up on a measurement or it's just "blurred" some how?? I dunno. It is not a natural sound. and it's a bummer. I will look into some room treatments. Maybe that's the magic bullet. Of course, if anyone could theorize how a crossover mod might correct something like this... I'd love to hear those ideas.

                          Comment

                          • beden1
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Oct 2006
                            • 1676

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ckunstadt
                            oh. nice tip.
                            I have been hearing something similar (it seems) on my new-to-me N803s.
                            I would call it a ringing above the vocals. I find it more pronounced with female vocals. I put my ear close to one speaker and i agree that it sounds like it's at the point in the frequency range that gets spilt across the tweeter and the mid-range. It makes me wonder if this perceived "peak" would show up on a measurement or it's just "blurred" some how?? I dunno. It is not a natural sound. and it's a bummer. I will look into some room treatments. Maybe that's the magic bullet. Of course, if anyone could theorize how a crossover mod might correct something like this... I'd love to hear those ideas.
                            You may be hearing the limitations of your electronics, more so than your speakers. What equipment are you using to send the signals to your speakers?

                            Comment

                            • 1oldguy
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2008
                              • 459

                              #15
                              Originally posted by ckunstadt
                              oh. nice tip.
                              I have been hearing something similar (it seems) on my new-to-me N803s.
                              I would call it a ringing above the vocals. I find it more pronounced with female vocals. I put my ear close to one speaker and i agree that it sounds like it's at the point in the frequency range that gets spilt across the tweeter and the mid-range. It makes me wonder if this perceived "peak" would show up on a measurement or it's just "blurred" some how?? I dunno. It is not a natural sound. and it's a bummer. I will look into some room treatments. Maybe that's the magic bullet. Of course, if anyone could theorize how a crossover mod might correct something like this... I'd love to hear those ideas.

                              Though I only had my 802D's hooked up for a short time(14 Hours),I also got the feeling that they weren't truly neutral in the midrange.
                              A Man should never Gamble more than he can stand to loose.

                              Comment

                              • DM3000 Owner
                                Senior Member
                                • Jun 2006
                                • 475

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Space

                                As for the quack, I don't see how this reviewer can say that when the people who own the speakers don't hear it. Now, don't go listening for a quack just because this joker said it was there, because your imagination will play tricks on you!
                                You are least likely to hear it on a pair of speakers that you have listened to for a long time. Klipsch horn speakers have a coloration. I did not hear it when I owned them years ago. I just picked up a pair of Klipsch Speakers for someone and hooked them up to my electronics. There is no harshness with my upstream gear, but I do hear something "off" in the midrange that I did not hear years back when I owned them. The high extension is also very poor. That said, I am surprised that they do sound very good for an "old set of horn speakers." If I had only owned them I would be saying how great they are, but I am not crazy about them and rotated them out and back to my normal speakers because it was not worth listening to them when I have other options.

                                This of course, begs the question, if you think that your speakers are great and cannot hear the "problem" is there a problem? Once you get to a certain level it is all just silly. So I agree, do not go and look for the "quack."

                                Comment

                                • Space
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Aug 2009
                                  • 118

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by ckunstadt
                                  I would call it a ringing above the vocals. I find it more pronounced with female vocals. I put my ear close to one speaker...
                                  Ringing could be delayed energy release from the crossover network, the driver diaphragm or the cabinet. On the other hand, it could also be an artifact of the recording process, or even an effect added on purpose. Don't ever forget that--the first suspect for any audible feature should be the recording itself. After all, you're not supposed to be listening to the crossover network, or the cone diaphragm, or the amplifier or whatever, you're listening to the recording.

                                  Comment

                                  • ckunstadt
                                    Junior Member
                                    • Aug 2004
                                    • 5

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by beden1
                                    You may be hearing the limitations of your electronics, more so than your speakers. What equipment are you using to send the signals to your speakers?
                                    Well, my system has gone through a lot of changes in a short time. I've had my N803s for a month and have watched quite a few movies with them in front. With an HTM1 handling the dialog (not perfectly)... I think the fronts sound great. I recently bought the latest Norah Jones CD and gave it (and my system) a more critical listen. It was pretty apparent to me that this was a very good recording and I put myself in the mindset of listening as if this was a live performance. Some of the tracks have obvious filtering. But it was on the most natural / pure tracks I noticed this ringing. I then popped in Cassandra Wilson and noticed the same thing. Massive Attack with Sinead O'Connor = same but worse.
                                    Jumping ahead a bit... I took my CDs to a friend's place and listened to the same tracks on his 804S speakers powered by a Pioneer receiver. I was bummed to hear the same ringing from his speakers. It did seem less severe - possibly due to tweeter and crossover improvements from N to S?? (total speculation). His speakers were not handling bass as well as mine but I'm confident that I could identify this particular "sound".
                                    I could have probably shrugged this off if it not were for the ONIX Ref 1's I have in my office. <no such ringing and pretty natural sounding vocals. They're not perfect. maybe a bit nasal-y. Maybe this perceived naturalness comes at the expense of resolution. OR it's the other way around for the N803's?

                                    OPPO BDP-83 as transport / optical to Lavry DA10 dac / Integra DTR 7.8 for volume control (Direct Mode) / Odyssey Stratos Plus HT-3
                                    blue jeans cabling

                                    sorry, OP. I hope you find this relevant.

                                    Comment

                                    • Kal Rubinson
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Mar 2006
                                      • 2109

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by DM3000 Owner
                                      So I agree, do not go and look for the "quack."
                                      The B&Ws are not all they are quacked up to be.
                                      Kal Rubinson
                                      _______________________________
                                      "Music in the Round"
                                      Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                      http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                      Comment

                                      • ShadowZA
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Jan 2006
                                        • 1098

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                        The B&Ws are not all they are quacked up to be.
                                        :roflmao:

                                        ... well, they fluff out MY tail feathers.

                                        Comment

                                        • WelshOne
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jan 2009
                                          • 117

                                          #21
                                          Personally I think your all quackers............tumbleweed...............

                                          Slightly off topic, is it possible to replace just the kevlar on the FST, or is it a complete new driver.

                                          Mine have discoloured to a golden brown colour, and my new centre is bright yellow?

                                          Comment

                                          • DM3000 Owner
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Jun 2006
                                            • 475

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                            The B&Ws are not all they are quacked up to be.
                                            Careful Kal, everyone will start quoting that as being from your review.

                                            Comment

                                            • Kal Rubinson
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Mar 2006
                                              • 2109

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by DM3000 Owner
                                              Careful Kal, everyone will start quoting that as being from your review.
                                              No. It is meant as a comment on the quackers. :W
                                              Kal Rubinson
                                              _______________________________
                                              "Music in the Round"
                                              Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                              http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                              Comment

                                              • wkhanna
                                                Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                • Jan 2006
                                                • 5673

                                                #24
                                                Actually, I am beginning to think the cheese has dun slid off everyone’s quackers. :W
                                                _


                                                Bill

                                                Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                FinleyAudio

                                                Comment

                                                • Skyblue
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Jun 2009
                                                  • 504

                                                  #25
                                                  If they can go quack then I certainly must have a couple of B&W's. You're never alone with a rubber duck, as the saying goes
                                                  B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • ShadowZA
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Jan 2006
                                                    • 1098

                                                    #26
                                                    Ahhhh... nothing like a good bottle of sparkling red to complement the quackers. :T

                                                    Attached Files

                                                    Comment

                                                    • boarder1995
                                                      Member
                                                      • Sep 2009
                                                      • 68

                                                      #27
                                                      I have a duck call CD that teaches how to make a duck call sound real - for duck hunting. I may go home and put that CD on my B&Ws to see how they perform on material they should excell at.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Mark_NZ
                                                        Member
                                                        • Apr 2007
                                                        • 51

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Space
                                                        Are you sure the chesty range is covered by the mid? Seems like that would be a characteristic of the woofers.
                                                        The slight chestiness I hear on male vocals with the 803D can be due one or a combination of the following:
                                                        - FST driver – surround-less design limits cone excursion at lower frequencies
                                                        - Cross-over design and/or execution
                                                        - Relatively high cross-over frequency between woofers and midrange (required by the FST design)
                                                        - Kevlar cone material sonic signature
                                                        - Woofer cone material break-up exacerbated by the high cross-over frequency
                                                        Originally posted by Space
                                                        As for the quack, I don't see how this reviewer can say that when the people who own the speakers don't hear it.
                                                        Personally, I don't hear a 'quack' per se - but I do hear sonic signature from the Kevlar midrange that is variable across it’s working range, and hence difficult to pin down with a single word description.

                                                        To quote a HiFi+ review on the 803D: "… lack of strict neutrality through the mid-band and presence, which tends to make voices sound a little thickened and slightly ‘shut in’. This is certainly the most obvious element of ‘character’ in this speaker, and while it is unquestionably audible – significantly more so than with the 802D, it must be said – the effect seems much less obtrusive and distracting than was case with the Nautilus 800 series…"

                                                        The engineer in me is keen for B&W to really try hard to make a quantum leap in performance for midrange design, as they did for the tweeter by moving from aluminum to diamond cone.
                                                        The music lover in me is simply enjoying 803Ds - they good enough to be very musically satisfying.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • ckunstadt
                                                          Junior Member
                                                          • Aug 2004
                                                          • 5

                                                          #29
                                                          well, I messed around with room absorption at reflection points and removed my processor from the mix for some testing. I still used my OPPO as a transport and decoded with the Lavry. I think this is a low-jitter solution. I am now convinced that with some attention to room acoustics and quiet electronics, that the ringing can be heavily abated.

                                                          thank you to everyone in this forum.

                                                          "thickened" mid-range? hmm. yeah, I think I can hear that sometimes. For me, that description fits better than "quack". at least it does not sound electronic or artificial (to me). I don't find the thickened vocals distracting on my N803s. At least, not yet.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Grasynoll
                                                            Member
                                                            • Mar 2006
                                                            • 71

                                                            #30
                                                            Perhaps whoever wrote the comments for Higherfi.com is the "quack"

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Briz vegas
                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                              • Mar 2005
                                                              • 1199

                                                              #31
                                                              You guys quack me up !

                                                              I don't think you fix your speaker with room treatment. I think you fix your room. The more you control room interactions surely what you are hearing is more from the speaker itself.

                                                              Listening to the 804s against more expensive Focals revealed that apart from sounding different in character there was clearly room for improvement in the B&Ws. Despite this I have never been happier with the sound at home.

                                                              People like to think they have the best. You don't. Get over it. There are many different sounds out there. How many times have you heard that the most variable element in hifi is the speaker (I think the room is a big factor also).
                                                              Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
                                                              Siamese :evil: :twisted:

                                                              Comment

                                                              • audiofiel10
                                                                Member
                                                                • Nov 2009
                                                                • 35

                                                                #32
                                                                Now whenever I listen to my 802d's, I can help but notice this persistent quack...quack..quack...

                                                                are we sure b&w make the midrange out of kevlar...not duckling hair???

                                                                Comment

                                                                • audiofiel10
                                                                  Member
                                                                  • Nov 2009
                                                                  • 35

                                                                  #33
                                                                  quack quack quack....AAAARGHHHHH

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • audiofiel10
                                                                    Member
                                                                    • Nov 2009
                                                                    • 35

                                                                    #34
                                                                    For sale: 802d's in black...

                                                                    Slight quack from midrange...nothing too noticeable

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • duketbrd88
                                                                      Member
                                                                      • Jul 2009
                                                                      • 54

                                                                      #35
                                                                      What a joke...................

                                                                      I think he was "quacking off" during his review. Is this some kind of frickin joke? I have the 804S's with classe CA2200 and they sound great. Now people are going to think there is something wrong with there speakers. Did you hear the quack when you first bought them? NO!! You could go out and buy any speaker and if there was some HIFI review that there was a quack, bark or meow, people would start trying to hear it or look for it. Come on, just enjoy your speakers. "Little quack hear a quack every where a quack quack"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Briz vegas
                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                        • Mar 2005
                                                                        • 1199

                                                                        #36
                                                                        That's no black duck. Thats a beautiful swan. Fly be free beautiful swan.

                                                                        I don't know about you guys but I officially ban myself from returning to this thread. It clearly makes me quackers. :stupid2:
                                                                        Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
                                                                        Siamese :evil: :twisted:

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • 1oldguy
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Dec 2008
                                                                          • 459

                                                                          #37
                                                                          One of the things that struck me when I first heard the 802D's was that rather than being neutral as I had hoped there is most assuredly a characteristic B&W sound.Perhaps this is what the reviewer is referring to.
                                                                          A Man should never Gamble more than he can stand to loose.

                                                                          Comment

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