amp for b&w 683's

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  • zork
    Junior Member
    • Jan 2010
    • 14

    amp for b&w 683's

    hi
    need help
    i am thinking of a harmon avr 355 with a rotel rmb1095 to power the 683's
    is this a good or bad ideas
    any other ideas
    used to had a harmon avr630 on 603(was stolen)
    also got 2x subs(ifinity 500w
    center b&w 6???
    surrounds b&w cm1 (i think)
    hdmi projector

    please help
    thanks
  • theblue
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2009
    • 116

    #2
    what I can tell you is that they love power, I would take B&W's high number of 200w per speaker and call that the minimum acceptable. I'm bipowering mine from a 5 channel rotel amp (100x5) and wish I had more power.

    everything on your list works, but the harmon is a little entry level compared to everything else. To be honest, if I needed an amp and had the money to walk into a store and buy a rmb1095, I wouldn't. You can go onto audiogon and get a pair of used killer monoblocks for the same money in this economy.
    Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
    rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
    B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
    a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

    Comment

    • ryan.devry
      Member
      • Apr 2008
      • 60

      #3
      I like the Rotel rmb 1095. Should sound just fine with anything in the 600 series. I don't really know much about the HK 355. What I do know about it, is that the hk 355 defaults everything to HK's Logic 7. So, if you want to just pass through Dolby or DTS signals you will have to play around with the settings a little. Or if you like the Logic 7 sound representation, leave it alone. Either way the combo should work and sound fine!!!
      Ryan
      -------------------------

      Comment

      • ryan.devry
        Member
        • Apr 2008
        • 60

        #4
        As far as HK being entry level, heh, how many of us on here are using "Entry Level" AVRs as pre amps and having great success. Just ask around.......emig5m seems to be happy with his Yamaha.
        Ryan
        -------------------------

        Comment

        • jamesdaman
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2008
          • 136

          #5
          so something like a £400 reciever will work fine with 800 series speakers?

          Comment

          • theblue
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2009
            • 116

            #6
            Originally posted by ryan.devry
            As far as HK being entry level, heh,
            you misread me... I was saying this is one of HK's entry level products. (I'm not dissing HK, although I probably wouldn't consider them against rotel, marantz, etc)
            Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
            rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
            B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
            a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

            Comment

            • ryan.devry
              Member
              • Apr 2008
              • 60

              #7
              IDC one way or the other. For the means that he is looking for the hk will do the job. I am not saying hk compares to rotel marantz or any other brand. All I am saying is that the idea of hk 355 with rotel rmb 1095 will work and should shound fine on anything in the 600 series.

              If he has the money to match up rotel/marantz pre with rotel amp....by all means go for it. IDK if he is getting the gear used, new, or maybe already has the HK and wants to improve his setup while saving some cash....

              And yeah ppl do/have used £400 reciever as a pre with 800s. In fact there are several ppl on this forum that do just that. A lot of models have a direct pass through feature, and no modification is being made to the signal. So, if you have a good amp in that type of a set up your limitations are mainly your connections.....Just my opinion.......hack me apart if I am wrong...
              Ryan
              -------------------------

              Comment

              • theblue
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2009
                • 116

                #8
                there is straight through and then there is straight through

                (showing this for fun, not to argue)



                STEREO PREAMPLIFICATION

                While the SP 2 is a great multi-channel controller, there are those who still like their stereo in the analog realm; so, at the touch of a button, the digital circuitry can be bypassed and SP 2 operated as a Bryston audiophile-quality analog pre-amp. The bypass mode provides a totally discrete analog signal path — including an analog volume control. The signal does not go through any IC’s or digital circuitry from input to output.
                Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                Comment

                • ryan.devry
                  Member
                  • Apr 2008
                  • 60

                  #9
                  Touché.......I think that spelling is correct....lol.......I agree tho
                  Ryan
                  -------------------------

                  Comment

                  • stuofsci02
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Nov 2009
                    • 1241

                    #10
                    People put to much thought into watts.

                    When I had 683s I ran them on a 50 watt/channel NAD power amp and only ever clipped it once and the two bass drivers were jumping out of the box.

                    I also ran the same speakers with two NAD amps bridged to deliver 400 watts/channel.

                    In the end I prefered the 50 watt/channel amp and used that most of the time.

                    For me it is all about headroom of the AMP.. The 50 watt/channel amp could output over 200watt for short musical bursts.. The bridged amps could output over 1600 watts for short bursts :E ..

                    Now I have 804s with a 130 watt/channel Chord Power amplifier. When shopping for the Chord I auditioned lots of gear including Rotel, Parasound Halo etc. with hundreds of watts and nothing did it for me like the Chord..

                    BTW.. I also use a Cheap NAD T742 AVR as my pre/pro to my Chord.. That will change soon as I want a Analog Pre-Amp with HT Bypass..

                    So all I can say is audition.. audition... audition...
                    Main System:
                    B&W 801D
                    Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                    Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                    Oppo BDP-105
                    Squeezebox Touch


                    Second System:
                    B&W CM7
                    Emotiva UMC-1
                    Emotiva UPA-2
                    Oppo BDP-83SE
                    Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                    Comment

                    • theblue
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 116

                      #11
                      I've never bridged any amps and liked the output. However, I always love the results of bi-powering.

                      I would say that if you like a setup that has less power over a higher power one, it's never going to be because of the extra power (headroom). Other factors probably lead to your dislike. How clean an amp is and how much current it can flow are king.

                      would you agree?
                      Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                      rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                      B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                      a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                      Comment

                      • stuofsci02
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Nov 2009
                        • 1241

                        #12
                        Originally posted by theblue
                        I've never bridged any amps and liked the output. However, I always love the results of bi-powering.

                        I would say that if you like a setup that has less power over a higher power one, it's never going to be because of the extra power (headroom). Other factors probably lead to your dislike. How clean an amp is and how much current it can flow are king.

                        would you agree?
                        Absolutely!!!!!!!!

                        This is exactly my point. If an amp can control the speaker well and sounds musical, then it doesn't matter if it is 30wpc or 300 wpc.

                        In many instances people are unwilling to listen to a lower power amp because they feel (or have heard) that they should have some minimum number of watts ex 200 wpc..

                        Now of course a well designed amp of 400 wpc should control a speaker better then the same design of 100 wpc, and thus have a more dynamic sound.

                        I have also found that if you have a Class A/B amp then the more wpc you have the longer it will stay in Class A mode and the better it can sound.

                        But at the end of the day you must hear it for yourself and make a decision. For my amp budget of $4,000 I could have had amps ranging from 17 wpc to 800 wpc..
                        Main System:
                        B&W 801D
                        Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                        Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                        Oppo BDP-105
                        Squeezebox Touch


                        Second System:
                        B&W CM7
                        Emotiva UMC-1
                        Emotiva UPA-2
                        Oppo BDP-83SE
                        Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                        Comment

                        • timjclark
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 104

                          #13
                          Originally posted by stuofsci02
                          But at the end of the day you must hear it for yourself and make a decision. For my amp budget of $4,000 I could have had amps ranging from 17 wpc to 800 wpc..
                          Wow, $4,000 is a very health Amp budget in my opinion.
                          -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                          -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                          -Rotel: RSP-1069
                          -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                          Office system:
                          -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                          -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                          Comment

                          • stuofsci02
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Nov 2009
                            • 1241

                            #14
                            Originally posted by timjclark
                            Wow, $4,000 is a very health Amp budget in my opinion.
                            Indeed... And I had no desire to buy the Chord SPM-650 as I found it lacking in features, looks small and weighs almost nothing. It certainly didn't look like a higher priced amp... All I had to do was hear it though and all that changed..

                            I even read a review in Stereophile where they found it too fast and clinical.. Not for me.. Every amp I compared it to came up short for my ears..
                            Main System:
                            B&W 801D
                            Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                            Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                            Oppo BDP-105
                            Squeezebox Touch


                            Second System:
                            B&W CM7
                            Emotiva UMC-1
                            Emotiva UPA-2
                            Oppo BDP-83SE
                            Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                            Comment

                            • Opus007
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2007
                              • 454

                              #15
                              Just my 2 cents and your cents may vary....
                              I also have the 683 speakers and must say they are a wonderful speaker.I think the direction you are going is ok but you could do better with what you will be spending.I am running my 683's with a Rotel RMB-1075.It is 120watts x 5.It powers all my speakers with no problem whats so ever.It powers my 683's louder than I can listen.
                              My suggestion would be to get a RMB 1075 or higher amp (or Emotiva amp)and wait on the Emotiva UMC-1 preamp.It is being shipped now but has some bugs but I am sure Emotiva will have everything worked out very soon.For the general masses they should be shipping soon.I do not own any Emotiva products but have watched there progress for a long time now.Early reviews are very positve.I think it would do better than the HK unit you are considering.Disclaimer.....I am in no way connected with Emotiva.
                              Good luck with you journey.

                              Comment

                              • zork
                                Junior Member
                                • Jan 2010
                                • 14

                                #16
                                thanks guys
                                i will be going then the route of the harmon and rotel then

                                Comment

                                • zork
                                  Junior Member
                                  • Jan 2010
                                  • 14

                                  #17
                                  should i bi wire the 683's

                                  Comment

                                  • stuofsci02
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2009
                                    • 1241

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by zork
                                    should i bi wire the 683's
                                    I did not find any gains in doing so vs. the 12awg single cable I was using. There is a lot of debate over this subject though, so I won't say any more then that.
                                    Main System:
                                    B&W 801D
                                    Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                    Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                    Oppo BDP-105
                                    Squeezebox Touch


                                    Second System:
                                    B&W CM7
                                    Emotiva UMC-1
                                    Emotiva UPA-2
                                    Oppo BDP-83SE
                                    Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                    Comment

                                    • theblue
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Dec 2009
                                      • 116

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by zork
                                      should i bi wire the 683's
                                      If you have good enough wire to begin with then I wouldn't bother unless you plan to bi-power. While it can never hurt, you might be spending a good chunk that could go towards something that will give better results for sure. (like an external DAC, line conditioner, etc)
                                      Last edited by theblue; 22 January 2010, 13:39 Friday.
                                      Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                                      rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                                      B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                                      a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                                      Comment

                                      • emig5m
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Aug 2008
                                        • 646

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by ryan.devry
                                        As far as HK being entry level, heh, how many of us on here are using "Entry Level" AVRs as pre amps and having great success. Just ask around.......emig5m seems to be happy with his Yamaha.
                                        Most hardcore audiophiles might think it's crazy to match a high end speaker with a $430 Yamaha. I try to spend most all of my budget on the components that make the most noticeable difference. On the other hand I think it would be crazy to take the exact total cost I spent on my system and get a lower model speaker but spend more on a pre amp and amp. When demoing different systems at dealers, other peoples homes, and from my own personal experiences, speakers always seem to make the most noticeable difference assuming room acoustics & setup is done alright (I'm sure you've all read my rant about my 600 series system sounding better than a 803D on Classe). Pre-amps and amps - not so much difference.

                                        So with that said, do you really think if you took the exact total cost of my components ($9180.79 total, out the door price, 5.1 speakers, pre/pro and amp) could you use the same exact budget, reconfigure all the components with a better pre/pro and amp and drop to a lower model speaker and get a better end result in performance? For example, do you think a pre/pro would make up for a speaker with more cabinet distortion, less detailed/controlled/boomier bass, and less 3D imaging effect from no out of the box tweeter (just a couple examples of the speaker design). I don't think so. As soon as you dropped the 800 series speaker for a higher quality pre-amp and amp I believe it wouldn't perform nearly as good as my system does with the 800 series. Think about it - do speakers add the most distortion to the signal compared to the rest of the components or don't they? Yes I said components and not accoustics and setup. :lol: I think most of one's budget should be in buying the best speakers you possibly can then fit in whatever is left over on the the pre/pro and amp. I'll take a $430 Yamaha and a $843.73 Emotiva with B&W 800 series speakers any day over a $5000 pre-pro and amp with a lower model speaker.

                                        The big difference in the high end components from lower end just doesn't seem to be there these days like it used to be. Low end components doesn't seem to = low fidelity anymore. Just look at how many people with B&W 800 series speakers and Emotiva amps on here!! It just seems so much easier these days to produce a high sound quality electronic component on the cheap than it is to make a high sound quality speaker. :E Or maybe Yamaha and Emotiva are those very few exceptions to the rule and I just got lucky with them. :lol:

                                        From a price standpoint, my components and speakers seem way out of balance. In reality their end-result of sound quality working together is much more balanced than it seems since it's the speakers that's much harder to get right and add the most distortion to the signal...

                                        Comment

                                        • stuofsci02
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Nov 2009
                                          • 1241

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by emig5m
                                          Most hardcore audiophiles might think it's crazy to match a high end speaker with a $430 Yamaha. I try to spend most all of my budget on the components that make the most noticeable difference. On the other hand I think it would be crazy to take the exact total cost I spent on my system and get a lower model speaker but spend more on a pre amp and amp. When demoing different systems at dealers, other peoples homes, and from my own personal experiences, speakers always seem to make the most noticeable difference assuming room acoustics & setup is done alright (I'm sure you've all read my rant about my 600 series system sounding better than a 803D on Classe). Pre-amps and amps - not so much difference.

                                          So with that said, do you really think if you took the exact total cost of my components ($9180.79 total, out the door price, 5.1 speakers, pre/pro and amp) could you use the same exact budget, reconfigure all the components with a better pre/pro and amp and drop to a lower model speaker and get a better end result in performance? For example, do you think a pre/pro would make up for a speaker with more cabinet distortion, less detailed/controlled/boomier bass, and less 3D imaging effect from no out of the box tweeter (just a couple examples of the speaker design). I don't think so. As soon as you dropped the 800 series speaker for a higher quality pre-amp and amp I believe it wouldn't perform nearly as good as my system does with the 800 series. Think about it - do speakers add the most distortion to the signal compared to the rest of the components or don't they? I think most of one's budget should be in buying the best speakers you possibly can then fit in whatever is left over on the the pre/pro and amp. I'll take a $430 Yamaha and a $843.73 Emotiva with B&W 800 series speakers any day over a $5000 pre-pro and amp with a lower model speaker.

                                          The big difference in the high end components from lower end just doesn't seem to be there these days like it used to be. Low end components doesn't seem = low fidelity anymore. Just look at how many people with B&W 800 series speakers and Emotiva amps on here!! It just seems so much easier these days to produce a high sound quality electronic component on the cheap than it is to make a high sound quality speaker. :E Or maybe Yamaha and Emotiva are those very few exceptions to the rule and I just got lucky with them. :lol:

                                          From a price standpoint, my components and speakers seem way out of balance. In reality their end-result of sound quality working together is much more balanced than it seems since it's the speakers that's much harder to get right and add the most distortion to the signal...
                                          I would agree with you that speakers/room make the most difference however when auditioning amps in Nov/Dec I had the 683s still. Since I knew I wanted to get 804S sometime down the road, I auditioned every amp I could on both speakers since I wanted to be sure it sounds right with the 683s, but also wanted it to drive the 804s eventually.

                                          I won't get into brands or models, but there was a situtation where the Chord which I bought sounded better (IMO) with the 683s then the 804s did with another amp. I actually could not believe this so I went back and forth several times just to be sure. Of course, better is subjective and is only based on what I would prefer to listen to.

                                          Of course in the end the 804s sounded much improved to the 683s when using the same amp. In fact remarkably so!

                                          I am also (as you are) using an inexpensive AVR as my pre/pro (NAD T742). I would still prefer to get a analog pre-amp with HT bypass down the road, just so that I have more analog inputs that remain as true analog. My T742 only has one input that does not convert back to digital to process etc.

                                          I may even consider the Emotiva USP-1 at $399 for that duty..
                                          Main System:
                                          B&W 801D
                                          Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                          Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                          Oppo BDP-105
                                          Squeezebox Touch


                                          Second System:
                                          B&W CM7
                                          Emotiva UMC-1
                                          Emotiva UPA-2
                                          Oppo BDP-83SE
                                          Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                          Comment

                                          • emig5m
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Aug 2008
                                            • 646

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by stuofsci02
                                            I would agree with you that speakers/room make the most difference however when auditioning amps in Nov/Dec I had the 683s still. Since I knew I wanted to get 804S sometime down the road, I auditioned every amp I could on both speakers since I wanted to be sure it sounds right with the 683s, but also wanted it to drive the 804s eventually.

                                            I won't get into brands or models, but there was a situtation where the Chord which I bought sounded better (IMO) with the 683s then the 804s did with another amp. I actually could not believe this so I went back and forth several times just to be sure. Of course, better is subjective and is only based on what I would prefer to listen to.

                                            Of course in the end the 804s sounded much improved to the 683s when using the same amp. In fact remarkably so!

                                            I am also (as you are) using an inexpensive AVR as my pre/pro (NAD T742). I would still prefer to get a analog pre-amp with HT bypass down the road, just so that I have more analog inputs that remain as true analog. My T742 only has one input that does not convert back to digital to process etc.

                                            I may even consider the Emotiva USP-1 at $399 for that duty..
                                            Well you got my interest! But I've seen many audiophiles admit the pre/pro is more likely to change the sound than a amp would and that the amp should just amplify the signal as neutral as possible and that it's fairly easy to make a neutral amp. Please explain in your words what you noticed different? More openness and detail? More impact and liveliness? More dynamic range? Clearer at louder volumes? More naturalness and realism over a more electronic "fake" sound? etc.etc. About a pre/pro, I'm all digital, so analog performance doesn't mean much to me.

                                            Comment

                                            • theblue
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Dec 2009
                                              • 116

                                              #23
                                              my experience is that the amp dictates the range, clarity, and impact while the pre / dac tend to vary all the other characteristics within them (things like how the edge of a voice rolls off "naturalness", "realism" etc). Mort simply put it's the whole garbage in = garbage out with respect to the amp and the same on to the speaker.

                                              I hope this makes sense, it's easier to demonstrate than it is to type.
                                              Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                                              rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                                              B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                                              a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                                              Comment

                                              • stuofsci02
                                                Super Senior Member
                                                • Nov 2009
                                                • 1241

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by emig5m
                                                Well you got my interest! But I've seen many audiophiles admit the pre/pro is more likely to change the sound than a amp would and that the amp should just amplify the signal as neutral as possible and that it's fairly easy to make a neutral amp. Please explain in your words what you noticed different? More openness and detail? More impact and liveliness? More dynamic range? Clearer at louder volumes? More naturalness and realism over a more electronic "fake" sound? etc.etc. About a pre/pro, I'm all digital, so analog performance doesn't mean much to me.
                                                This is always the problem with this hobby.. It is so difficult to describe what makes something good to someone. What I noticed for my listening with the Chord was that it was neutral and clean almost to an extreme. Also sonically it seemed very fast (where when a sound is done it stops immediately)which I guess could be considered clean. This allowed me to hear nuances and instrument placements better then on the other amps I tested. For me this is important because I seem to listen to music differently then others I have met.

                                                When asked what I like to listen to, my answer is always "a good recording", as I will listen to just about anything that is performed by a talented musician and recorded well. I listen for things like lips parting, mechanisms in the instruments like piano damper squeak etc. For some reason these sounds really do it for me.

                                                Conversely someone may find the things that I like are the things they don't as can be seen with this review.

                                                High-tech, compact, and lightweight, Chord's entry-level SPM 650 power amplifier ($4995) promises robust power output, low distortion and noise, flat and ultra-wideband frequency response, and bulletproof reliability—all in what seems an impossibly small package measuring 16.4" wide by 3.4" high by 13.8" deep and weighing only 22 lbs.


                                                In my testing of different amps with the 683 and 804 the sound I prefered was that which the Chord produced, so much so, that I liked it with the 683s better then another amp with the 804.

                                                I am a natural skeptic and in general I really need to hear a difference for myself before I will buy into it. For example, I will openly admit that I hear no difference using my Carnival Silver Screen speaker cable or Wal-Mart Phillips 15 cent/ft cable. I also cannot audibly detect a difference between my Nordost Black Knight interconnect and the $10 gold plated no-name one that came with my Rotel RCD-1072. There are many people that would say there must be something wrong with me or my system for this to be the case.

                                                Here is list that did make noticeable improvements in my system:

                                                Amplifier (as discussed)
                                                Source (Oppo Player vs digital in to my NAD from a music server)
                                                Speakers (804 vs 683)
                                                Speaker Position and Toe
                                                Listening Position
                                                Adding curtains to windows.
                                                Main System:
                                                B&W 801D
                                                Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                                Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                                Oppo BDP-105
                                                Squeezebox Touch


                                                Second System:
                                                B&W CM7
                                                Emotiva UMC-1
                                                Emotiva UPA-2
                                                Oppo BDP-83SE
                                                Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                                Comment

                                                • scanido
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Apr 2006
                                                  • 548

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by jamesdaman
                                                  so something like a £400 reciever will work fine with 800 series speakers?
                                                  I've used a RSX-1057 for my 803S for a year before i got an amp. The receiver is sufficient, but don't expect getting massive SPL out of them. Just keep the volume reasonable and undistorted and you should be fine!

                                                  Comment

                                                  • emig5m
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Aug 2008
                                                    • 646

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by theblue
                                                    my experience is that the amp dictates the range, clarity, and impact while the pre / dac tend to vary all the other characteristics within them (things like how the edge of a voice rolls off "naturalness", "realism" etc). Mort simply put it's the whole garbage in = garbage out with respect to the amp and the same on to the speaker.

                                                    I hope this makes sense, it's easier to demonstrate than it is to type.
                                                    Makes perfect sense to me, something sounding more alive, natural, and real than coming from an electronic component. Garbage in, garbage out - a home video on youtube on a HD plasma looks like total ass compared to watching The Dark Knight on BluRay. Not the HD screens fault the end result of what you see is crap if using Youtube as the source. Same with a highly compressed mp3 on a HD speaker like the 800 series - you hear every little problem with it from compression artifacts, to hissy highs not to mention a lot of Cd recordings out there are highly flawed to begin with. Can't say I've ever heard such a dramatic range of Cd audio quality since getting the 800 series! From Cd to Cd can go from phenomenal sound quality to piss-poor in a heartbeat where say song to song on the radio in my truck all sounds like they're on the same level.

                                                    But I just have yet to experience the differences with the higher end sound components. And the fact that I've heard some very bad things from some very expensive rigs puts a little more doubt in my head about it. And the rigs that seemed to have been done all properly still didn't seem to be all that much different than what I have. Definitely nothing has totally grabbed my attention yet and be like "wow, that's much better than I heard before" like the differences in speakers has done it for me.

                                                    Back in the all analog days, yea, more night and day differences. But in today's mostly all digital world where you can transfer signals in lossless and the designs have been refined on the lower end I'm at where I believe the gaps has closed up a lot. I also don't think I've had the proper environment to demo it since even having a salesmen or other customers around seems to throw my concentration off. Plus I like to switch back and forth with my exact gear - the sooner I can switch back and forth, the easier I can hear those small differences because I definitely haven't heard any notably huge differences (yet) where I didn't feel like I'd have to switch back and forth right away to notice anything.

                                                    My hope lies in the Emotiva XMC-1 and getting it into my own home away from all distractions. It will be priced low enough for me to throw money away on a "gamble". They've been known so far to provide a great high end performance for a more low end price. This key component might be the stepping stone for me, or maybe not. I'll try it. If the XMC-1 doesn't provide me with any more sound quality than I already have, chances are super slim I'll try anything else. Prices get out of hand quick in this hobby and I'm already happy with what I have and not really wanted more, but curious of what better is. The 683 was the perfect stepping stone to get me into higher end speakers. I need the same sorta stepping stone on the component level... Hopefully the XMC-1 is it! :T But honestly I'm expecting it not to be much better....which is a good thing since I wont have no unrealistic expectations with it.

                                                    I think some major high end brands like Classe and McIntosh should start to make some more affordable and down to earth priced entry level components like B&W does with their 600 series....provide that stepping stone...

                                                    Originally posted by stuofsci02
                                                    This is always the problem with this hobby.. It is so difficult to describe what makes something good to someone. What I noticed for my listening with the Chord was that it was neutral and clean almost to an extreme. Also sonically it seemed very fast (where when a sound is done it stops immediately)which I guess could be considered clean. This allowed me to hear nuances and instrument placements better then on the other amps I tested. For me this is important because I seem to listen to music differently then others I have met.
                                                    Good discussion.... This is how I listen and what I find valuable....I'm a total detail freak. Admittedly headphones is what got me into hifi. How hard is it to get those uber fine details and clarity of even the most cheaply priced headphones outputted through a speaker and across a room and hear it loud and clear and un-vielded into your ear just like those headphones do? Not easy. For example, there's this one song that when the music stops mid song you can hear the someone in the background doing a 3.. 2.. 1.. countdown before the music starts again that's so right there and clear with headphones, but my old low end speakers just didn't have it to nearly the level of my headphones....had to listen hard to notice. In fact, if I hadn't heard it with the headphones first, I might never have noticed it through the speakers. And when this same song was played over the radio on a stock Ford F150 sound system that 3.. 2.. 1.. countdown was 100% totally inaudible. I tried hard to hear it, but it wasn't there at all. Totally veiled over with the poor sound quality of broadcast radio and a stock car audio system.

                                                    But with the B&W speakers the difference was right there....FINALLY I had all the detail loud and clear just like my headphones. Yay...I can start listening to music again through using loudspeakers and not have to rely on headphones for great detail. Even going from a non FST speaker to one with the FST the difference was right there and I didn't have to struggle to hear it. I actually wanted to get rid of the tower speaker with the FST and use smaller bookshelves but the loss of the more wide open midrange detail of the FST I couldn't live with. But it wasn't just the detail I got, it's just what I was after upfront. The better speakers sound more natural, image more 3d, have more resolution, and play cleaner with less added coloration that's all easily noticeable. I might not of cared about cabinet noise and coloration up front, but I'll tell you after owning the 800's for a while I'll care about it...

                                                    BTW it's funny Chord and Yamaha being discussed and the link you provided has a Yamaha banner right next to it, lol. :lol:

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Captain Reg
                                                      Junior Member
                                                      • Mar 2008
                                                      • 20

                                                      #27
                                                      Currently running my 683's with an NAD M3, 180watts per channel. This power level really makes the 683's sing and it doesn't clip.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • theblue
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Dec 2009
                                                        • 116

                                                        #28
                                                        my 683s didn't clip when I ran 100rms/per to them from my rotel... but it was a whole different level when I bi-powered them (so 100rms 2x per speaker)
                                                        Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                                                        rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                                                        B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                                                        a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • stuofsci02
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2009
                                                          • 1241

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by emig5m
                                                          I might not of cared about cabinet noise and coloration up front, but I'll tell you after owning the 800's for a while I'll care about it...
                                                          This was the most dramatic thing I noticed when going from my 683 to 804s. I found the 683 an extremely capable speaker and perhaps the best price/value speaker in the B&W line, but cabinet colorization is clearly evident when playing them side by side with the 804

                                                          Still had B&W not been changing the 800 lineup I would still have my 683s and being very happy.

                                                          Emig5m, are you still on an upgrade path? You upgrades have been very similar to mine so far.
                                                          Main System:
                                                          B&W 801D
                                                          Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                                          Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                                          Oppo BDP-105
                                                          Squeezebox Touch


                                                          Second System:
                                                          B&W CM7
                                                          Emotiva UMC-1
                                                          Emotiva UPA-2
                                                          Oppo BDP-83SE
                                                          Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                                          Comment

                                                          • stuofsci02
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Nov 2009
                                                            • 1241

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by theblue
                                                            my 683s didn't clip when I ran 100rms/per to them from my rotel... but it was a whole different level when I bi-powered them (so 100rms 2x per speaker)
                                                            Yeah.. I never had a problem with my 683 and my 100wpc NAD either. In fact all but once, my 50 wpc NAD was fine. I was shocked when it clipped, but I should have known since my lights were actually dimming when the bass drum was struck..
                                                            Main System:
                                                            B&W 801D
                                                            Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                                            Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                                            Oppo BDP-105
                                                            Squeezebox Touch


                                                            Second System:
                                                            B&W CM7
                                                            Emotiva UMC-1
                                                            Emotiva UPA-2
                                                            Oppo BDP-83SE
                                                            Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                                            Comment

                                                            • emig5m
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Aug 2008
                                                              • 646

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by stuofsci02
                                                              This was the most dramatic thing I noticed when going from my 683 to 804s. I found the 683 an extremely capable speaker and perhaps the best price/value speaker in the B&W line, but cabinet colorization is clearly evident when playing them side by side with the 804

                                                              Still had B&W not been changing the 800 lineup I would still have my 683s and being very happy.

                                                              Emig5m, are you still on an upgrade path? You upgrades have been very similar to mine so far.
                                                              Yes I would of still been very happy with the 683's...Very good performance. I view the 804S as the high end version of the 683 with all flaws erased. Upgrade path? As far as speakers? Well.... I would like to replace my 685's in the rear with 805S's but otherwise my front end rocks! Can't really ask for more out of my front end! As far as electronics? Next stop.....Emotiva XMC-1!

                                                              Your sig says you're still using the HTM61...if you think the jump from the 683 to the 804S was nice, the jump from the HTM61 to the HTM3S is even bigger!! It's so much clearer, detailed, and airy compared to the HTM61....

                                                              Originally posted by stuofsci02
                                                              Yeah.. I never had a problem with my 683 and my 100wpc NAD either. In fact all but once, my 50 wpc NAD was fine. I was shocked when it clipped, but I should have known since my lights were actually dimming when the bass drum was struck..

                                                              Ok back on topic... I used two receivers and one poweramp with my 683's. First was a Sony STR-DE845...or something or another...don't remember the model number, but think that was it. It was rated 100wpc but it was a horrendous 100wpc. It would play loud, louder than some Harmon Kardon my friend had, but the bass was so thin, and the sound was so dull and fake/electronic sounding. Had to boost the treble and bass a lot to get a good tone from it. Horrible performance and sound quality - just could go loud.

                                                              Next was a Yamaha RX-663... Major improvement in sound quality. Caught me by surprise as I had bought it for the HDMI and HD decoding. I thought another receiver would sound just as crappy as my previous Sony's was compared to my Carver system. The Sony also cost twice as much as the Yamaha when purchased new. Anyway, it played just as loud as the Sony, which was always the Sony's strong point, but with more weight and punch behind the bass. Much clearer. Much more clarity. Sweeter top end, and more natural sounding and less "electronic" fake. Didn't need to use any EQ to have a nice clear tone like the Sony did (which the Sony was sooooo dull and lifeless). The Yamaha seemed perfect... but when playing loudly with bass intensive music, it would go into protection mode. It didn't sound clipped, sounded perfectly fine, just would keep shutting down.

                                                              Next was adding the Emotiva XPA-5. Haven't had a dedicated poweramp since my Carver system and that was always my best sounding system, previously. Looking forward to having real power again. I laughed out loud when I took delivery of it when I tried to pick it up it was so heavy....haha...and I work construction. Major difference from the Carver TFM-35x which was a feather weight. Anyway the sound signature of the Yamaha remained unchanged, so I believe when they say it's neutral, it is, but I could definitely notice another boost in added weight and authority to the bass of the 683. This was the most noticeable thing right off the bat. The added weight behind the bass wasn't just at the extreme loud volumes either - it was everywhere! The system would play cleaner and clearer at loud volumes. It might give the impression it was adding detail, but I think it's just the amp is more capable to stay clean and clear when the goin' get's tuff. I could now play as loud as I wanted (or handle) and not worry about the amp shutting down two thirds the way through the first song. I rarely listen to these volumes, but it's fun to fire up the dance club every now and then. Every Emotiva owner says their amps run cool, mine doesn't? The amps that are in the rear of the chassis that look like video cards in a PC definitely throw out some heat for me! Sure everyone isn't just touching the faceplate to check for heat? My Carver ran cooler.....

                                                              Comment

                                                              • stuofsci02
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2009
                                                                • 1241

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by emig5m
                                                                Yes I would of still been very happy with the 683's...Very good performance. I view the 804S as the high end version of the 683 with all flaws erased. Upgrade path? As far as speakers? Well.... I would like to replace my 685's in the rear with 805S's but otherwise my front end rocks! Can't really ask for more out of my front end! As far as electronics? Next stop.....Emotiva XMC-1!
                                                                I agree.. With similar size and drive configuration I found the 804 was a direct swap in my room with the 683. I guess once I hear the new 804di I will know if all the flaws were erased..

                                                                You will have to let us know how that XMC-1 works out.

                                                                Originally posted by emig5m

                                                                Your sig says you're still using the HTM61...if you think the jump from the 683 to the 804S was nice, the jump from the HTM61 to the HTM3S is even bigger!! It's so much clearer, detailed, and airy compared to the HTM61....
                                                                I am still using my HTM61 although not by choice. When I got my 804s three weeks ago, they were the last pair the dealer had and I could not get the HTM3S anymore is rosenut (only cherry). I have been looking around for a used HTM3S, or even an Nautilis HTM1 for that matter.

                                                                I have also considered a HTM4S, for which I have seen a couple for sale, but I don't think that would be a good match.
                                                                Main System:
                                                                B&W 801D
                                                                Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                                                Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                                                Oppo BDP-105
                                                                Squeezebox Touch


                                                                Second System:
                                                                B&W CM7
                                                                Emotiva UMC-1
                                                                Emotiva UPA-2
                                                                Oppo BDP-83SE
                                                                Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                                                Comment

                                                                • emig5m
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Aug 2008
                                                                  • 646

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by stuofsci02
                                                                  I agree.. With similar size and drive configuration I found the 804 was a direct swap in my room with the 683. I guess once I hear the new 804di I will know if all the flaws were erased..

                                                                  You will have to let us know how that XMC-1 works out.



                                                                  I am still using my HTM61 although not by choice. When I got my 804s three weeks ago, they were the last pair the dealer had and I could not get the HTM3S anymore is rosenut (only cherry). I have been looking around for a used HTM3S, or even an Nautilis HTM1 for that matter.

                                                                  I have also considered a HTM4S, for which I have seen a couple for sale, but I don't think that would be a good match.
                                                                  I doubt I'm going to bother with the new series. I probably wont even go to the store to look at them. Yes I like the idea of a more polished and refined 804, but they're simply out of my price range. Especially after just buying brand new speakers. I also feel for the price increase of the 804Di, it should of been a little more upgraded and got a 3rd woofer like the 803D has over the 803S. Then they would of had my interest more. I would like a better diamond tweeter but it's just not worth the price increase to me when what I have is already so good. And the tweeter difference would have to be as noticeable to me as going from non FST to a FST midrange. Everyone says that it's more smoother, polite if you will. Well I don't want that. I want more openness and detail like the FST mid provides. Honestly I have yet to sit down and do a "proper" demo of the diamond tweeter. Yes I've heard them before, but not in what I would call a proper demo environment and with my own music (really need to swap back to back with my own gear to demo properly, and with no distraction - so much easier to tell differences that way).

                                                                  I'm still ecstatic to have the 800 S's - they're leagues above anything I've ever dreamed of ever owning. I only got them brand new because of the nice discount I got on them. I simply wasn't willing to pay full retail, even as good as they are, I didn't think they where worth paying full price. A major part of me being happy with something is feeling they where worth what I paid for. I would of still wound up with them used. Either way, I was getting them. And don't worry, I'll let everyone know here what I think about the XMC-1 when/if I get it, lol. Maybe it will turn out a caught off guard sleeper experience like I had with the Yamaha, and my initial experience with B&W because I simply expected it to not be any better than what I had before. So no expectations here. But I wont be in a rush to get it the day it's available as to be 100% honest, I'm really at a point where I'm not looking for any better. I met all my goals and them some. For the first time listening to music through speakers sounds more enjoyable than using headphones! :E But non-the-less I'm always curious of what better might be and experience it.

                                                                  And I personally would rather just continue using the HTM61 with my 804S's (which I did for a short while) rather than get the HTM4S. Definitely go for the 3S with the FST and dual dedicated bass drivers... such a stronger and solid match for the 804. I'd only bother with the 4S if I had the 805S's. I bought at the perfect timing for a great discount and had my choice of any color - the center had to be special ordered from across seas as there wasn't one currently at the main warehouse in the states at the time. I just made it...perfect timing. :E

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • stuofsci02
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Nov 2009
                                                                    • 1241

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by emig5m
                                                                    I doubt I'm going to bother with the new series. I probably wont even go to the store to look at them. Yes I like the idea of a more polished and refined 804, but they're simply out of my price range. Especially after just buying brand new speakers. I also feel for the price increase of the 804Di, it should of been a little more upgraded and got a 3rd woofer like the 803D has over the 803S. Then they would of had my interest more. I would like a better diamond tweeter but it's just not worth the price increase to me when what I have is already so good. And the tweeter difference would have to be as noticeable to me as going from non FST to a FST midrange. Everyone says that it's more smoother, polite if you will. Well I don't want that. I want more openness and detail like the FST mid provides. Honestly I have yet to sit down and do a "proper" demo of the diamond tweeter. Yes I've heard them before, but not in what I would call a proper demo environment and with my own music (really need to swap back to back with my own gear to demo properly, and with no distraction - so much easier to tell differences that way).

                                                                    I'm still ecstatic to have the 800 S's - they're leagues above anything I've ever dreamed of ever owning. I only got them brand new because of the nice discount I got on them. I simply wasn't willing to pay full retail, even as good as they are, I didn't think they where worth paying full price. A major part of me being happy with something is feeling they where worth what I paid for. I would of still wound up with them used. Either way, I was getting them. And don't worry, I'll let everyone know here what I think about the XMC-1 when/if I get it, lol. Maybe it will turn out a caught off guard sleeper experience like I had with the Yamaha, and my initial experience with B&W because I simply expected it to not be any better than what I had before. So no expectations here. But I wont be in a rush to get it the day it's available as to be 100% honest, I'm really at a point where I'm not looking for any better. I met all my goals and them some. For the first time listening to music through speakers sounds more enjoyable than using headphones! :E But non-the-less I'm always curious of what better might be and experience it.

                                                                    And I personally would rather just continue using the HTM61 with my 804S's (which I did for a short while) rather than get the HTM4S. Definitely go for the 3S with the FST and dual dedicated bass drivers... such a stronger and solid match for the 804. I'd only bother with the 4S if I had the 805S's. I bought at the perfect timing for a great discount and had my choice of any color - the center had to be special ordered from across seas as there wasn't one currently at the main warehouse in the states at the time. I just made it...perfect timing. :E
                                                                    I doubt I would upgrade either unless there was noticeable improvement with the Di tweeter. I suspect there will be a noticeable improvement for sure like with the FST midrange. I guess time will tell. The nice thing is I won't feel pressured as I am very pleased with what I have.

                                                                    As for the HTM3S... I will just have to wait to find one used.. Until then I will keep the HTM61.. My brother wants to buy my HTM61 off me when I am ready... I already told him to skip it and go for a CMC.. The HTM61 is the only speaker I have heard from B&W that I don't like.
                                                                    Main System:
                                                                    B&W 801D
                                                                    Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                                                    Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                                                    Oppo BDP-105
                                                                    Squeezebox Touch


                                                                    Second System:
                                                                    B&W CM7
                                                                    Emotiva UMC-1
                                                                    Emotiva UPA-2
                                                                    Oppo BDP-83SE
                                                                    Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • SteelyTom
                                                                      Junior Member
                                                                      • Feb 2010
                                                                      • 13

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Hi all-- I have a similar question about powering a new pair of 683s. At a dealer's yesterday, the speakers sounded great as powered by an integrated 225-watt amp from Anthem. The Anthem powered a Bruckner symphony with ease, and it's an option. Though the dealer seemed more intent on selling me a Rotel preamp and amp, the cheaper RC-1550 preamp and either of the two mathing amps, the RB-1552 (125 wpc) or RB-1582 (200w).

                                                                      Home theater is a possibility down the road. Any thoughts?

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • theblue
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Dec 2009
                                                                        • 116

                                                                        #36
                                                                        rotel is a more common match to find with B&W. This is not to say the Anthem amp is no good, I have never heard this combo.

                                                                        The question I have is why is the sales person selling you apples vs. oranges? (integrated from one brand vs. separates from another).

                                                                        my advice is to figure out your budget and find the best selling on that fits within it and meets your needs.

                                                                        also, if you are thinking home theater down the road then be realistic and figure out how soon and make sure you are not buying things that you just plan to sell.
                                                                        Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                                                                        rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                                                                        B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                                                                        a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • SteelyTom
                                                                          Junior Member
                                                                          • Feb 2010
                                                                          • 13

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Thanks for the input! The dealer's point re sep. components seemed to be that they bring marginal advantages versus an integrated amp.

                                                                          Good to know that Rotel equipment matches up well with the 683s, though that Anthem 225w sucker drove those speakers with great ease and power.

                                                                          Comment

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