HiVi M8n - a true bargain

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    HiVi M8n - a true bargain

    I've been in contact with Darren from PE, and he's sent me a pair of M8N's to evaluate for the "Unorthodox Eight Inch Two Way", as well as other possible projects where we normally use the M8a. Yesterday a box arrived from UPS, with a pair of these drivers.

    I was interested because the response curves look almost identical, and the cost is reduced by over 40%, pretty substantial. The cone and manget and surround is the same; the basket is stamped instead of cast. It will require a slightly different hole cut out, actually a little smaller, because of how the stamped rim area is handled, with one part flush with the mounting surface, and the outer part raised and folded back down; this increases the strength. Overall, it "looks" pretty good; rear window is close to the same, but with the modified hole cut out, I might recommend using a slight bevel relief, as I did for the Usher's.

    As soon as I wrap up Chris's Ushers, these are next on my list to look at.

    For dipole line arrays, these could really work nice while substantially reducing the cost. One should note that though the upper resonsnance is a bit lower in frequency than the Seas Excels, it's also substantially lower in amplitude, too.

    I'm dreaming of a dipole with RD50's, and a ribbon tweeter array; though I'm hoping for the HiVi M12, I suspect I may need to go with their 8"; this could make it a lot more affordable.

    We'll see.

    Stay tuned.

    Best regards,

    Jon




    Earth First!
    _______________________________
    We'll screw up the other planets later....
    the AudioWorx
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  • Cdub
    Member
    • Aug 2003
    • 56

    #2
    Hey Jon, I was wondering if you were ever going to get out from underneath the avalanche of work from your job. I was about to send out a rescue team for you. Good to see you still have a little time for your hobbies.

    Any progress on the infamous M8ta's?

    Will the M8n be tested in the "bookshelf" woodstyle cabinets or the towers? How much of a savings is it?

    Chris

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15259

      #3
      I've yet to have a weekend off since I last saw you, Chris!

      I'm taking a breakfast break right now, been working on building a demoboard power supply for the PCIM show next week, which I leave for Sunday. The following week I go to Montreal on business, the week and a half after I spend in Austria and Germany- till the middle of Thanksgiving week. After that things should get a little more normal, though I probably have to go to Houston the first or second week of December. Yuk.

      January is another international workshop, this time on High Voltage components, probably in Munich this time, though possibly in Singapore where the function is being transferred. I also want to take some time off in Denver. February I have an invited paper to present at the IEEE APEC conference.

      The savings on the M8N is about $40, pretty substantial. I'm going to test them on the Arvo first, maybe in the M8 next, problem is they need a slightly smaller cutout than the M8a. Maybe I'll have to do a custom box, I'm not sure...


      Best regards,

      Jon




      Earth First!
      _______________________________
      We'll screw up the other planets later....
      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
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      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • Hank
        Super Senior Member
        • Jul 2002
        • 1345

        #4
        I'm dreaming of a dipole with RD50's, and a ribbon tweeter array
        Ribbon tweet "array"? Do you plan on more than one ribbon tweet per cabinet?
        PCIM show next week, which I leave for Sunday. The following week I go to Montreal on business, the week and a half after I spend in Austria and Germany- till the middle of Thanksgiving week. After that things should get a little more normal, though I probably have to go to Houston the first or second week of December
        Sheesh...words fail me. Poor guy. I bet he secretly loves his work though

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15259

          #5
          I'm thinking about an array with the HiVi tweets or the Fountek ribbon from Madisound. The Arum Cantus ESG2 is just a skosh too expensive, I think, though it's very nice. That would have to cover from about 24-30" off the floor to 72" or so; close to the same height as the RD50. The idea might be to avoid the dispersion and resonance issues of the RD50 above 6 kHz. Might just build up one side and see how it goes... thats about 8 tweeters a side, I figure. ~46-48". Should work OK with an RD50, I hope.

          And it will be easier to integrate those tweeters than the Panasonic's ThomasW has, because they go lower.

          Well, when I think back to my 20's and 30's, and all the things I might be doing instead of what I am doing in order to get by, I guess it's worked out as well as can be hoped... thoguh there sure are days where I wouldn't say I love it, thought there are others that make up for it.

          A few weeks ago I spent a day at the Sears Point track (now known as "Infineon Raceway", with Jim Russel Racing, learning the fast line through the track on a Formula Mitsubishi; the bill was footed by Infineon for a group of us who were designated overchievers of some sort by the Business group VP's, mostly becuase we kept up most of the year with some unrealistic expectations set by upper management... that was pretty fun; made me want to take one of my bikes on the track, too, and take a full course some day later.

          But I'm not at all sure that a few hours of fun and recognition is worth all the lost time and stress... but since I"d have had to do that stuff anyway, at least there are some pleasant memories and photo's to show for it. Besides the pay check stubs.

          ~Jon




          Earth First!
          _______________________________
          We'll screw up the other planets later....
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • Hank
            Super Senior Member
            • Jul 2002
            • 1345

            #6
            Jon, I can relate to the unrealistic expectations of upper management
            What have I missed ove the timeline of this development? First, it was an RD50 and a line of mid-woofs monopole, then dipole, then a tweet to take up fairly early roll-off of the RD-50's upper freqs. Now you're thinking about a whole line of tweets? Let's see...RD-50, line of tweets, line of perhaps Hi-Vi M8N's...that's going to be a W I D E cabinet, it is.

            Man, I would have loved to be on the track! That must have been a kick! Your management owes you much more than a day at the track for the hours you put in, Jon. The track was fun, but ...oh, never mind... back to speakers...

            Comment

            • ThomasW
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 10934

              #7
              Although not specifically discussed in Jon's RD50 threads, a line array of tweeters has always been an option given the relatively soft top-end of all the B&G RD/Neo8 planars.
              We've tested a couple planar/leaf tweeters and they weren't up to the task. We're hoping that one the newest generation tweeters Jon mentioned will be 'keepers'.
              Then to see if we can get a deal on a bulk purchase...... :roll:




              theAudioWorx
              Klone-Audio

              IB subwoofer FAQ page


              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15259

                #8
                I used to belong to the MRA in Colorado; that's Mountain Racing Association; the MRA put on road course motorcycle racing in a variety of venues in Colorado, including Aspen and Steamboat Springs. Getting on the Sears Point track (AKA Infineon Raceway) WAS a serious blast; the formula Mitsubishi is just a "trainer", but it has the power to weight ratio of a LS1 Vette, but weighs in at ~1000 lb, so it's light and forgiving- your butt is about an inch off the ground. I'd like to do one of their longer training courses some day.

                As ThomasW alludes to, the very first RD system we mocked up was intended to work with a ribbon line array; that's how his current setup in the living room is configured. The problem is finding a good tweeter candidate at a semi reasonable price- no point in the tweeters costing more than the RD50's!

                Image not available

                The RT2-II has pretty nice specs and curves, better than most of the other magnetic planar drivers, but a true ribbon like the Arum Cantus models or the Fountek has it's appeal, obviously. :banana:

                I've got all the parts to do the monopole, but with the restrictions on using my garage space for a woodshop, getting a test dipole built would be much easier, at least initially. Longer term, need to address that with a re-location; but even with the downturn, real estate is tight even around the East Bay; we've just been underbuilt for so long.

                I was hoping to veneer the towers during the weeklong shutdown on Thanksgiving, but for me it's now just a long weekend. Hmmm, Christmas, maybe... gotta do something with the 300 hours of vacation I've got, too!

                ~Jon




                Earth First!
                _______________________________
                We'll screw up the other planets later....
                Last edited by theSven; 28 August 2023, 12:24 Monday. Reason: Remove broken image link
                the AudioWorx
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                In Development...
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                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • GM
                  Junior Member
                  • Oct 2002
                  • 5

                  #9
                  FWIW, I did a couple of dual driver ML-TL pipe sims today for someone using published specs, a max flat and smaller, more rolled off one for near wall/corner placement, and they look really smooth in MJK's MLTQWT worksheet with minimal stuffing, so if the specs are reasonably accurate they should be strong performers down to ~25Hz.

                  GM




                  Loud Is Beautiful, If It's Clean
                  Loud Is Beautiful, If It's Clean

                  Comment

                  • Ziggy
                    Junior Member
                    • May 2004
                    • 1

                    #10
                    Tweeters

                    Hello guys! I have read the forum now and again for a while, but never thought to post.

                    Seeing your plans for this array design Jon, and your concerns of cost for parts, I thought I would post. If the post should be somewhere else by all means rip it out of here! )

                    I can supply you with the drivers you are seeking, either Fountek or Aurum, please email me and I will explain who I am and how I can help you. Its up to you how you share the information with the other members once we have chatted about it
                    Cheers!

                    Ziggy

                    Comment

                    • DeanP
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2004
                      • 175

                      #11
                      If anybody is looking for cheap M8as, check out this thread by me.

                      https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...665#post102665 :T
                      Last edited by theSven; 28 August 2023, 12:26 Monday. Reason: Update url

                      Comment

                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 15259

                        #12
                        This is cool info, Dean. Raises some interesting questions, but its a relief to see availability improve. I'm disappointed that PE has sort of dropped the ball on HiVi; but maybe they have so many things on their plate it's just not important.

                        The proof will be availability and delivery.

                        Almost makes me want to order some M12's just as a test case...

                        ~Jon
                        the AudioWorx
                        Natalie P
                        M8ta
                        Modula Neo DCC
                        Modula MT XE
                        Modula Xtreme
                        Isiris
                        Wavecor Ardent

                        SMJ
                        Minerva Monitor
                        Calliope
                        Ardent D

                        In Development...
                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                        Obi-Wan
                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                        Modula PWB
                        Calliope CC Supreme
                        Natalie P Ultra
                        Natalie P Supreme
                        Janus BP1 Sub


                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                        Comment

                        • BrianJD
                          Junior Member
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 21

                          #13
                          Am I seeing things :E or did the M8a price drop by about 40 bucks over at PE. Its still not available, but the price is now competitive with Solen. :T I hope PE has a good supply right around the time the Arvo design is finalized. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=297-447

                          Comment

                          • Al Garay
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 125

                            #14
                            Good catch... here is the reply I received last week from Solen about the availability of the Hi-Vi M8a:

                            Dear Sir,

                            We do not have them in stock at this time.

                            We should received them in 3 to 4 weeks approx.

                            The price is 61.23$us for international customers or 79.60$cad for
                            canadian
                            customer .

                            Regards,
                            Dominique

                            Solen Inc.
                            4470 Av. Thibault
                            St-Hubert, QC J3Y 7T9
                            Canada
                            Tel.: 450-656-2759
                            Fax.: 450-443-4949
                            solen@solen.ca
                            Last Month upto 1500+ Products Sales From these catagories. You can choose a product from here and save money.

                            Comment

                            • James W. Johnson
                              Member
                              • Jun 2001
                              • 68

                              #15
                              Does Solen have the M8As in stock yet?
                              pics

                              Comment

                              • ThomasW
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 10934

                                #16
                                That's the $64,000 Question ......

                                I know that HT-Guide member 'goskers' has some on M8a's ordered from Solen. Perhaps he'll chime in after the holiday and give us an update. I'd look for him to post info on the Arvo thread since he's building a pair of those.

                                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                Comment

                                • James W. Johnson
                                  Member
                                  • Jun 2001
                                  • 68

                                  #17
                                  Well I am down to about 3 speakers so I was checking around on parts costs today.

                                  The M8As or Arvos (not really sure the latter will work well in my small room though)... these seem like the most sensible.

                                  Wayne Parhams Pro Series 4 Pis , .. I worry these wont meet the audiophile needs I have.

                                  Or a new Array speaker from Rick Craig of Selah audio that uses
                                  8 Fountek ribbons per side. .. I worry these wont take the abuse I can give.
                                  pics

                                  Comment

                                  • ThomasW
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 10934

                                    #18
                                    Or a new Array speaker from Rick Craig of Selah audio that uses 8 Fountek ribbons per side. .. I worry these wont take the abuse I can give.
                                    I guarantee you'll meltdown the ribbon elements in a week or less.

                                    If you want to use ribbons you need to get something like the Stage
                                    Accompany or the TAD. Unfortunately these are extremely expensive. But they're designed for prosound use, so they can take a pounding.

                                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                    Comment

                                    • James W. Johnson
                                      Member
                                      • Jun 2001
                                      • 68

                                      #19
                                      Whew, I am glad I posted here first before going thru with it. Too bad though I really wanted to try an array.

                                      We will see what comes along but I think the vented MTM M8A will work good for me as long as I take it easy.

                                      At least the tweeter are only $50 buck a pop instead of $118 and there are only 2 instead of 16.


                                      Still though I dont feel like I found 'THE' speaker to build.
                                      pics

                                      Comment

                                      • Daryl Furkalo
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Feb 2002
                                        • 128

                                        #20
                                        Solen Update

                                        Well, I sent Solen an email about M8a stock, and here is the response. Order sooner than later seems to be operative word.

                                        Dear Sir,

                                        Thank you for your inquiry. We currently have a large quantity of XT25TG3004 in stock. However, we do not expect to have any M8A in stock for another 8 to 10 weeks, depending upon demand. It is suggested that you place your order as soon as possible so as to have priority on incoming stock.

                                        Regards,

                                        Dominique D.
                                        Solen Inc.
                                        4470 Av. Thibault
                                        St-Hubert, QC J3Y 7T9
                                        Canada
                                        Tel.: 450-656-2759
                                        Fax.: 450-443-4949
                                        solen@solen.ca
                                        Last Month upto 1500+ Products Sales From these catagories. You can choose a product from here and save money.

                                        Comment

                                        • Paul H
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Feb 2004
                                          • 904

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by James W. Johnson
                                          I think the vented MTM M8A will work good for me as long as I take it easy.
                                          As an enthusiastic new owner of dual ported M8n's, I can tell you they sound as clear as a proverbial bell in a 24' x 17' room playing in the mid-90 db range. They will go into the 100's - I just haven't had the sound meter on during the few occasions I've had them real loud.

                                          Of course, everyone has a different definition of loud, or taking it easy.

                                          Paul

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15259

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Paul H

                                            Of course, everyone has a different definition of loud, or taking it easy.

                                            Paul

                                            Ain't that the truth! :W :rofl:


                                            Regards,

                                            Jon
                                            the AudioWorx
                                            Natalie P
                                            M8ta
                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                            Modula MT XE
                                            Modula Xtreme
                                            Isiris
                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                            SMJ
                                            Minerva Monitor
                                            Calliope
                                            Ardent D

                                            In Development...
                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                            Obi-Wan
                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                            Modula PWB
                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • James W. Johnson
                                              Member
                                              • Jun 2001
                                              • 68

                                              #23
                                              I cannot wait 8-10 weeks ...where else can I get these drivers?
                                              pics

                                              Comment

                                              • ThomasW
                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 10934

                                                #24
                                                Hey no problem, only $125ea direct from SwanSpeakers
                                                Last edited by theSven; 28 August 2023, 12:28 Monday. Reason: Update image location

                                                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                Comment

                                                • Dennis H
                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                  • Aug 2002
                                                  • 3791

                                                  #25
                                                  Wow, that's really strange. That "cart" thing must be new on the Swans site. They want $125.50 for the M8a and $81.90 for the M12. Go figure. (Or buy a truckload of M12s before they figure out their mistake. :W )

                                                  Comment

                                                  • ThomasW
                                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                    • 10934

                                                    #26
                                                    Actually the cart has been there for a while. Everything about Swan is weird. Adding to the cart simply pops up a window that allows you to print out a faxable order form.

                                                    Weeks ago I spoke to Swan, they said they were going to have online ordering. When I ask about the inventory availablilty they wouldn't give me a direct answer. They gave me the old "well it varies day by day, so I can't give you an exact number until you place an order" nonsense.

                                                    It's unfortunate that the M8a/M8n drivers are in limbo. They're great drivers for the money but availablilty is certainly problematic.

                                                    My suggestion is place an order for M8a with Solen or M8n with PE and sit back and be patient until the speakers arrive. One could fall back and use Seas Excel drivers, but the cost is more than double.

                                                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Daryl Furkalo
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Feb 2002
                                                      • 128

                                                      #27
                                                      If you hit the Add to Cart with the M8n, it takes you to the PE website. I agree with Thomas, place the order and wait patiently.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Al Garay
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Jan 2004
                                                        • 125

                                                        #28
                                                        Which Seas Excel would be a replacement for M8a/n?

                                                        I don't think the cost of the Seas is outrageous considering the amount of effort in building the cabinet and crossover... same justification you used for the SS 9800 tweeters.

                                                        Dang, you and Jon need to start choosing drivers with a longer lifespan.

                                                        Al

                                                        Comment

                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 15259

                                                          #29
                                                          A replacement for the M8a would be the Seas W22EX. They're about ~$160 each, and a very good driver. We were originally buying the M8a for around $80 to $90.

                                                          The M8a was the THIRD driver evaluated for the "Unorthodox Eight Inch Two Way Design", the first woofer being a Focal which was discontinued three months after finishing the first system (i.e., about December 2001 - this system also used an MB Quart tweeter, which simultaneously was withdrawn as MB stopped supply DIY), the second being the Eton 8-800 ($1530), which was paired with an Accuton C26 tweeter ($175).

                                                          So, guys, the goal with the MkIII and MkIV was to make a pretty decent speaker for not too many bucks; that went deeper and louder than the typical six inch two way, with even better mids and highs than the typical six inch two way, and keep the cost LOWER than the typical six inch two way.

                                                          At that we succeeded; with any reasonable care, the system costs less to build than an Usher 7" two way, and I know for a fact out performs it in several regards. Well, may be all regards, other than size. The Usher's in the PE enclosures were very cute.

                                                          It's always easy to just throw cubic money at things, but for the mag article project and a lot of friends, that approach would be too painful.


                                                          So, for those willing to shell out the bucks, get the Excel woofer; I'll recheck the crossover design, may have to adjust the woofer zobel slightly, but it shouldn't be a problem. While you're at it, DO take my advice and make the upgrade I recommended in the two page response to a letter to the editor re the design, and go with the ScanSpeak D2904/9800 tweeter; it will lower the THD and IMD, and allow higher playback levels. No crossover tweak really needed, but I do have an optimized LF zobel (slight difference) for that tweeter driver which I can prrovide.

                                                          In my own M8ta I use the Hales Transcendence tweeter, which I bought about 3 pairs of, because of it's similarity in performance to the 9800.

                                                          Note that this will make the driver cost close to $700 alone after you factor in shipping. Make that $1K if you go with the MTM configuration. That's a long ways from the $280 or so for the original M8a + XT25 design, but you do get something more for your money. It's just that you have to figure out what the sweet spot of the curve is for YOU. When I look at how much work building something like this entails, the extra money on better drivers doesn't seem like such a big deal, especially relating it to somewhat ephemeral pleaseures like dining out.

                                                          Still gotta put those crossovers in there. While you're at it, I recommend upgrading the series tweeter caps to AudioCap Theta film and foil. That will cost more than the XT25 tweeters did, but IMO it's worth it if you're going whole hog for quality. The Arvo's and M8ta use them. OTOH, if that's a bit rich for your blood, the GE caps from Madisound work quite nicely, or you can go with the Sonicaps from Sonic Craft as something in between Solens and AudioCap Theta. PE carries AudioCap Theta; so does Jeff.

                                                          It's up to you guys what you do, of course; I'm just a facilitator; we're not selling anything here, just trying to make life a little more interesting and give you more choices to work with.

                                                          Regards,

                                                          Jon
                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                          Natalie P
                                                          M8ta
                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                          Isiris
                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                          SMJ
                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                          Calliope
                                                          Ardent D

                                                          In Development...
                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                          Modula PWB
                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Daryl Furkalo
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Feb 2002
                                                            • 128

                                                            #30
                                                            "No crossover tweak really needed, but I do have an optimized LF zobel (slight difference) for that tweeter driver which I can prrovide."

                                                            Jon, what is the optimization for the SS tweeter? I am going to build the Tibor/Paul MTM arrangement, but maybe with that tweeter instead.

                                                            Thanks!

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Hank
                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                              • Jul 2002
                                                              • 1345

                                                              #31
                                                              I'm just a facilitator; we're not selling anything here, just trying to make life a little more interesting and give you more choices to work with.
                                                              That's our beloved Poohbah's!! Read what they have to say. Digest it. Spend less money on high end audiophile and other magazines. Save time and frustration by not visiting high-end audio "salons". BUILD something! :B

                                                              Comment

                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 15259

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Daryl Furkalo
                                                                "No crossover tweak really needed, but I do have an optimized LF zobel (slight difference) for that tweeter driver which I can prrovide."

                                                                Jon, what is the optimization for the SS tweeter? I am going to build the Tibor/Paul MTM arrangement, but maybe with that tweeter instead.

                                                                Thanks!

                                                                Hello Daryl,

                                                                I don't have the details with me at work, but I'll post it tonight. I also have a "tweaked" version of the complete crossover, but this is for an Arvo size panel and location- doesn't necessarily translate to a box a foot wide like the M8 and it's variants.

                                                                I think upgrading to the 9800 is a worthwhile move, especially for the MTM version like Tibor's. A more important upgrade, than say, a $200 pair of interconnects... ;^)

                                                                See ya later...


                                                                Thanks for the kind words, Hank.

                                                                This driver availability thing is getting a bit annoying, though. The SEAS ones are the easy way out, except for the money involved. I've gone back and looked at a lot of other things again- the only "budget" driver that appeals much, regarding overall performance, is similar to the CSX model I think you recommended to me back a year or so ago for a line array, though I can't find the thread- the HDS Peerless 6-1/2", WITHOUT phase plug. Of course, that's not really "cheap" either, because it takes two to equal the swept Sd of the M8a, and then you're pushig $120 bucks. But it measures nice, including stored energy and THD/IM. The problem with their 8" is that the first mode is down around 500 Hz. No can do...

                                                                And the L21 Seas is out because of the huge energy storage problem around and above 1 kHz; it shows up as a dip in the response, it's where the cone is hitting it's first flex mode, but hasn't gotten into the upper breakup point yet.


                                                                ~Jon
                                                                the AudioWorx
                                                                Natalie P
                                                                M8ta
                                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                                Modula MT XE
                                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                                Isiris
                                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                                SMJ
                                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                                Calliope
                                                                Ardent D

                                                                In Development...
                                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                Obi-Wan
                                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                Modula PWB
                                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                Comment

                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 15259

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Well, Thomas and I discussed this some more this morning- I'm going to look into retro-fitting the M8ta's with W22EX as the learning experiment for this. It looks like they'll fit in the same "hole" as an M8n, down to the millimeter.

                                                                  The impedance and different peak will require some re-work of the LF crossover. Should be interesting...

                                                                  Don't expect to see any results before September. I've got the 2nd half of August blocked out for vacation, but I have a bad feeling already about whether I'll be able to take it... I'm getting the feeling that while I'm gone in Singapore, the back forty will be filling up with alligators. Actually, they're starting to arrive already this week.... 8O


                                                                  ~Jon
                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                  M8ta
                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                  Isiris
                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                  SMJ
                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                  Calliope
                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                  In Development...
                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • goskers
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Jun 2004
                                                                    • 106

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Hey Jon,

                                                                    Solen should have a stock new stock of HiVi goods in the next couple of weeks. I have my M8a's on order so I can get started on the arvo part. Now, if I could only have a drawing with dimensions for the cabinet...........someday maybe. :W :W :W

                                                                    wasser

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                      • 15259

                                                                      #35
                                                                      I promise I'll post some PDF's before I have to take off for Singapore the end of next week. 8)

                                                                      I have a plan for the decorative side bars, but haven't implemented it in hardware, yet. Hang in there!

                                                                      Regards,

                                                                      Jon
                                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                                      Natalie P
                                                                      M8ta
                                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                                      Isiris
                                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                                      SMJ
                                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                                      Calliope
                                                                      Ardent D

                                                                      In Development...
                                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                      Modula PWB
                                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Dennis H
                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                        • Aug 2002
                                                                        • 3791

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Hey Jon, you need to remind those alligators that alligator shoes sell for a real premium so they'd better watch their manners. :W

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Al Garay
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Jan 2004
                                                                          • 125

                                                                          #37
                                                                          On Discovery Channel, I watched how crocodiles ran away from Hippopotamuses. They knew not to mess with them.

                                                                          So, maybe you need a couple of Hippos as work mates to keep the alligators in check. :lol:

                                                                          Al

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Ten 99
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Apr 2004
                                                                            • 133

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Jon,

                                                                            How different is the cross-over of the M8ta compared to the M8a MKIV? I've only been able to locate one of the three magazine issues on the M8a MKIV so far.

                                                                            Also, if for budget concerns, I wanted to use the XT25 tweets now, with a possibility of upgrading later to the 9800's, would changing the tweeter network to the optimized version be something that would be easy to modify and do or would it require that part of the network be replaced?

                                                                            I'm thinking about doing M8ta setups for main left and right speakers, a sideways MTM for center, and possibly M8a MkIV's for surrounds. If I did upgrade the tweeters later, it would likely be on just the main left and right, and possibly the center as well.

                                                                            Thanks for your input.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                                              • 15259

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Daryl Furkalo
                                                                              "No crossover tweak really needed, but I do have an optimized LF zobel (slight difference) for that tweeter driver which I can prrovide."

                                                                              Jon, what is the optimization for the SS tweeter? I am going to build the Tibor/Paul MTM arrangement, but maybe with that tweeter instead.

                                                                              Thanks!

                                                                              The LCR LF zobel with the D2904 is 68uF + 2.0 mH (can be high DCR) + 5 ohms net. By 5 ohms net, I mean that the DCR of the 1.8 MH inductor plus the resistor should equal 5 ohms. Most likely you can buy a 1.8 MH air core inductor with about a 1 ohm DCR, and add 4 ohms in series. For example, the 2.0 MH "standard Inductor" line at PE is 1.07 ohms.

                                                                              Regards,

                                                                              Jon
                                                                              the AudioWorx
                                                                              Natalie P
                                                                              M8ta
                                                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                                                              Modula MT XE
                                                                              Modula Xtreme
                                                                              Isiris
                                                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                                                              SMJ
                                                                              Minerva Monitor
                                                                              Calliope
                                                                              Ardent D

                                                                              In Development...
                                                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                              Obi-Wan
                                                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                              Modula PWB
                                                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                                • 15259

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Ten 99
                                                                                Jon,

                                                                                How different is the cross-over of the M8ta compared to the M8a MKIV? I've only been able to locate one of the three magazine issues on the M8a MKIV so far.

                                                                                Also, if for budget concerns, I wanted to use the XT25 tweets now, with a possibility of upgrading later to the 9800's, would changing the tweeter network to the optimized version be something that would be easy to modify and do or would it require that part of the network be replaced?

                                                                                I'm thinking about doing M8ta setups for main left and right speakers, a sideways MTM for center, and possibly M8a MkIV's for surrounds. If I did upgrade the tweeters later, it would likely be on just the main left and right, and possibly the center as well.

                                                                                Thanks for your input.
                                                                                The M8ta crossover only differs in the LF zobel used for the Hales tweeter. The rest is the same, because the enclosure width is essentially the same. Modeling using either the XT or the SS9800, there's only a small difference in the amplitude response if you use the Vifa zobel with the 9800, but the impedance is a little less flat- not much different, but you know how picky some of us are. The basic hole diameter and frame diameter are compatible, but the SS9800 needs a little extra room in one spot to clear the terminal area; this can be done with a small grinder wheel on a drill, or even with a saber saw. My recommendation is save up the extra money you need, and then the money you save by not chucking a pair of used Vifa XT25'sa later, spend that on film and foil caps in the tweeter series sections; even just splitting the values between GE and AudioCap works very nice.

                                                                                Realistically, just try to set things up so you can have access to the crossover.

                                                                                If you need, I can email you PDF's of the crossover schematic design; I think I also have what I call an "overlay" PDF for the MkIII, which is same topology, which shows the component designators over the pictures of the network boards. I don't go out of my way to make this hard for folks, though sometimes it probably seems like it! :lol:

                                                                                I could send you a PDF made from the original Ventura Publisher file on CD; it's WAY too big to email (about 50 MB). Let me know if that's easier.

                                                                                Regards,

                                                                                Jon
                                                                                the AudioWorx
                                                                                Natalie P
                                                                                M8ta
                                                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                Modula MT XE
                                                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                                                Isiris
                                                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                SMJ
                                                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                                                Calliope
                                                                                Ardent D

                                                                                In Development...
                                                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                Obi-Wan
                                                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                Modula PWB
                                                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                                  • 15259

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by Dennis H
                                                                                  Hey Jon, you need to remind those alligators that alligator shoes sell for a real premium so they'd better watch their manners. :W

                                                                                  Good point, Dennis! I hate being in the swamp draining business, anyway.

                                                                                  We had another interesting curve ball thrown our way in our new expanded group meeting- our boss is planning on hiring someone into a US position which my cohort in crime in the lab was sort of promised last March- the new hire was someone we interviewed last January for a position in either our Padua Italy design office, or in our Villach Technical Marketing group, so why she's going to be coming into our US office as a DC/DC Applications person isn't clear, since her background is system concept engineering and IC definition for VRD and VRM applications- which is what my buddy Jens wanted to move into, and thought he had a deal for. It's going to be an interesting day tomorrow... this just came up late this afternoon.

                                                                                  Never a dull moment... just too many hours, lately. Gotta do something about that.

                                                                                  I WANT TO BUILD MY ARVO"S AND MY ARAGON XMODS!, D$#%)^W)$(*^!!!

                                                                                  ~Jon
                                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                                  M8ta
                                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                                  Isiris
                                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                  SMJ
                                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                                  Calliope
                                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                                  In Development...
                                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Hank
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Jul 2002
                                                                                    • 1345

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    I've got the 2nd half of August blocked out for vacation, but I have a bad feeling already about whether I'll be able to take it...
                                                                                    Jon, NO, do NOT let "them" take your vacation. Next, it will be your very soul. "They" have given me another division to take care of - it's savings goal for the year is $5.5 million and they are at $500,000. I'm supposed to "fix" this. ????? Every few days, I plop "Office Space" into the DVD player and recreate work. It's therapeutic.
                                                                                    Jon, we need to talk.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • DeanP
                                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                                      • May 2004
                                                                                      • 175

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      .... :T
                                                                                      Last edited by DeanP; 10 July 2004, 10:04 Saturday.

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • RonS
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • Jul 2004
                                                                                        • 102

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by JonMarsh

                                                                                        If you need, I can email you PDF's of the crossover schematic design; I think I also have what I call an "overlay" PDF for the MkIII, which is same topology, which shows the component designators over the pictures of the network boards. I don't go out of my way to make this hard for folks, though sometimes it probably seems like it! :lol:

                                                                                        I could send you a PDF made from the original Ventura Publisher file on CD; it's WAY too big to email (about 50 MB). Let me know if that's easier.

                                                                                        Regards,

                                                                                        Jon
                                                                                        Hi Jon,

                                                                                        I'm new to this board (been lurking for a while though). I must admit that I am confused by all of the different versions of this speaker, but I would like to build one. I already have a pair of XT25 tweeters that I'd like to use. Can you email me the appropriate schematics to use with this tweeter? Also, simple cabinet volume/dimensions would be great. I would probably want to build it in a seald version using the M8N (if it ever becomes available through Solen, I'm going to call them this morning), but if the bass rolls off too soon, maybe in a ported version. If you would be willing, I'd also appreciate the original article PDF if possible. I could send you postage or something if you want, I'm in Canada.

                                                                                        By the way, have you ever looked at the vifa MG22? It's got the same Xmax as the Hi-Vi driver, Qts is much lower (.23) though. I also have a pair of those lying around.

                                                                                        Thanks,
                                                                                        Ron

                                                                                        P.S. My email is ron.steinberg AT sympatico.ca

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                                          • 15259

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by RonS
                                                                                          Hi Jon,


                                                                                          By the way, have you ever looked at the vifa MG22? It's got the same Xmax as the Hi-Vi driver, Qts is much lower (.23) though. I also have a pair of those lying around.

                                                                                          Thanks,
                                                                                          Ron

                                                                                          P.S. My email is ron.steinberg AT sympatico.ca

                                                                                          I'll contact you about details.

                                                                                          The "trick" to the M8 two way design is having an 8" woofer who's first cone mode is above 2 kHz, that and the unusual crossover design, plus paying good attention to the usual details.

                                                                                          Unfortunatley, the MG22 is like a lot of other 8" woofers from ScanSpeak, Peerless, etc, and the first cone mode is at about 800 Hz. Even though this cone mode, as manifested in this driver and the ScanSpeaks, is not a peak, but a dip, it's also manifest as an energy storage and distortion problem. Makes for less midrange clarity, and believe me, I love the midrange...


                                                                                          Gotta run for work. Later...

                                                                                          ~Jon
                                                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                                                          Natalie P
                                                                                          M8ta
                                                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                                                          Isiris
                                                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                          SMJ
                                                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                                                          Calliope
                                                                                          Ardent D

                                                                                          In Development...
                                                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                          Modula PWB
                                                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                          Comment

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