B&W 804S's -- Bi-amp or not???

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  • Hammie
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2005
    • 304

    B&W 804S's -- Bi-amp or not???

    Okay, guys.

    2010 upgraditis is starting to kick in. This, along with amp stands and associated cabling, would max out my budget for upgrades this year. My question is whether bi-amping would provide any benefit to the 804S's.

    Brand name aside, I am considering either a dedicated 500w monoblock per speaker, or a 250w 2-channel amp to bi-amp each speaker.

    Which do you think would provide me the larger/best benefit?
    Panasonic TC-P65VT30
    Onkyo Pro PR-SC5508 | M2Tech Young DAC | Emotiva XPA-1 (x3), XPA-2
    Oppo BDP-93 | DirecTV HR23-700 HD-DVR | Pioneer PL-670 Turntable
    Sony Playstation 3 | Nintendo Wii | Apple TV 2, Mac Mini (iTunes Server), iPad
    B&W 804S, HTM3S, CWM DS8 | SVS PB12-NSD | Denon AH-D2000 Headphones
    Tripp Lite HT1210ISOCTR Power Conditioner, SMART1000LCD UPS System
    My Bowers & Wilkins 800 Series Setup
    Next Upgrade: Cables
  • Oddiophile
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2008
    • 173

    #2
    I would say to go with the 500W monoblocks. I think bi-amping would be of limited benefit and you would be covered in case 2011 upgraditis meant new speakers.

    Jim

    Comment

    • Candy's King
      Junior Member
      • Dec 2009
      • 1

      #3
      You will not regret the 500W monoblocks. I started w/ the XPA-2 with my 803D's, which I compared to Parasound Halo A21. I preferred the XPA to the Parasound in all aspects. Leaps and bounds over an old Adcom I had from years past. But kept reading about the XPA-1's. I took the plunge after drooling over my dealer's Mac monoblocks for a year. Just couldn't justify the expense.

      The minute I powered the XPA-1's up, I knew I did right by my B&W's. They took me another quantum leap from the XPA-2. In fact, I like to go to my dealer and "demo" his Mac monos with the 802's and 803's. Haven't told him about my XPA's yet. He wonders though, why I always walk out with a grin on my face. My XPA's may not quite be at Mac/Classe level, but at 95% there and $8K in my pocket, I'll get the nerve some day and ask him if I can bring in my XPA's and do a side by side.
      Mark

      Comment

      • stuofsci02
        Super Senior Member
        • Nov 2009
        • 1241

        #4
        I don't think anyone can answer your question. Youl will just have to listen.. I have the 683s and am very close to getting a set of 804s (maybe this Sat)..

        At the beginning of Dec I went out looking to upgrade my Amp.. I had two NAD PE2200 power amps before (mono-blocked) each providing 400W continous power... It sounded good.. 8O ..

        But I knew that when I went to the 804s I would want a more refined amp.. I did auditioning with both the 683 and the 804S with the Rotel 250w Class D amplifier, the Parasound A21, and a Chord SPM 650.

        After hours of listening I prefered the sound of the Chord on the 683s to the sound of the other two amps everytime. The refinement and openess was leaps and bound better. I even like the 683 with the Chord more then the 804S with the other two amps... In the end I went with the Chord even though it is only 130W per channel..

        Just to be sure, I even had him put the 130W Chord on the 801D's and it made them sing and seemed not to lack any power or control.

        I would suggest before making the number of watts a consideration, or bi-amping a must, go listen to different things. You may end up like me and find the best sound in the smallest package.
        Main System:
        B&W 801D
        Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
        Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
        Oppo BDP-105
        Squeezebox Touch


        Second System:
        B&W CM7
        Emotiva UMC-1
        Emotiva UPA-2
        Oppo BDP-83SE
        Grant Fidelity DAC-09

        Comment

        • htsteve
          Super Senior Member
          • Sep 2004
          • 1216

          #5
          Originally posted by Oddiophile
          I would say to go with the 500W monoblocks. I think bi-amping would be of limited benefit and you would be covered in case 2011 upgraditis meant new speakers.

          Jim

          I agree with this. I've tried bi-amping. I've had some improvement when doing this. But not the bang for the buck I was looking for. I've since upgraded to stereo amps for my mains and have not regretted it.

          So big mono's would be quite nice. As was suggested, listen and demo. This is the best way to go.


          Hope this helps.



          stuofsci02,

          Good luck this Saturday. You will like the 804's.

          Comment

          • Horacio
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2005
            • 142

            #6
            I agree with going with monoblocks rather than biamping in general terms, but suggest you don't just focus on how many Watts the monos have. Try tubed monoblocks, even if less power than the 500W you have in mind. Try Class A SS monos too. See what you like.

            I went from a 200 W per channel SS to a 75Wpc tubed with my 804S and am very happy. You won't necessarily like the same thing I did, but try for yourself if you can.

            My two cents,
            Horacio

            Comment

            • stuofsci02
              Super Senior Member
              • Nov 2009
              • 1241

              #7
              HTSteve,

              Thanks.. I am looking forward to it.. I really do like the 804S and this is my last chance to get to the 800 series.. The problem is I cannot get the matching HTM3S center as they only have one left in cherry, but the speakers in Rosenut.. Even B&W has no more 804S at all. Dealer has one more pair.. I guess I will need to go with a phantom center..
              Main System:
              B&W 801D
              Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
              Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
              Oppo BDP-105
              Squeezebox Touch


              Second System:
              B&W CM7
              Emotiva UMC-1
              Emotiva UPA-2
              Oppo BDP-83SE
              Grant Fidelity DAC-09

              Comment

              • htsteve
                Super Senior Member
                • Sep 2004
                • 1216

                #8
                Originally posted by stuofsci02
                HTSteve,

                Thanks.. I am looking forward to it.. I really do like the 804S and this is my last chance to get to the 800 series.. The problem is I cannot get the matching HTM3S center as they only have one left in cherry, but the speakers in Rosenut.. Even B&W has no more 804S at all. Dealer has one more pair.. I guess I will need to go with a phantom center..

                How dark is your room? If dark enough, you can go with the cherry center. Also, the cherry darkens over time, so it might not be a real issue in awhile. I think getting the center now might be a good way to go. The future might present any better options.


                Hope this helps.

                Comment

                • stuofsci02
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Nov 2009
                  • 1241

                  #9
                  ^^^

                  Nah.. I just can't bring myself to spend that kind of money and have non-matching. Besides I don't care for the look of the cherry and this will be going in my main room.

                  In the end, a phantom center may not be a bad idea. I just upgrade my L/R channels to a Chord amp and am still running the center off the NAD. I do notice a mismatch in tone and much prefer the phantom center when sitting in the middle. When off to the side, I do like having the center, but sometimes one has to make compromises..

                  I will see if I can pick up a used HTM4S down the road I guess..
                  Main System:
                  B&W 801D
                  Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                  Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                  Oppo BDP-105
                  Squeezebox Touch


                  Second System:
                  B&W CM7
                  Emotiva UMC-1
                  Emotiva UPA-2
                  Oppo BDP-83SE
                  Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                  Comment

                  • Marco Lisi
                    Member
                    • May 2008
                    • 84

                    #10
                    I think you would get the best result by vertically bi-amping the B&W's.
                    They like power, that's for shure, but the also like bi-amping. Seperating low/mid-hi will even increase the resolution of the speakers.

                    But hey, that's just my thought 8)

                    Diamond Room
                    Acoustical treated room with reference 7.3 av system

                    Comment

                    • DM3000 Owner
                      Senior Member
                      • Jun 2006
                      • 475

                      #11
                      The 804s are rated for a 50 to 200 wpc amp. If you are using a high quality amp, why go above the 250 wpc version? What do you expect to gain?

                      Comment

                      • BassThatHz
                        Senior Member
                        • Jul 2006
                        • 153

                        #12
                        I would replace the Denon with a UMC-1 first, that receiver probably won't get the best out of the monoblocks...

                        I was thinking of getting a UMC-1 myself for the HD audio decoding via HDMI for blu-ray. At that price you can't go wrong. They don't publish the %THD specs on it though... which makes me hesitate.

                        bi-amp with the monoblocks... :nos:

                        Comment

                        • Hammie
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2005
                          • 304

                          #13
                          Originally posted by BassThatHz
                          I would replace the Denon with a UMC-1 first, that receiver probably won't get the best out of the monoblocks...

                          I was thinking of getting a UMC-1 myself for the HD audio decoding via HDMI for blu-ray. At that price you can't go wrong. They don't publish the %THD specs on it though... which makes me hesitate.

                          bi-amp with the monoblocks... :nos:
                          Why do you think it will not do well with the monoblocks as a pre/pro? What is it lacking?

                          I'm very underwhelmed by the UMC-1. My biggest gripe/concern is that it doesn't support DSD over HDMI, which my Denon does. I use that with my SACD collection. I also did not get the audio upgrade on my Oppo before the end of the year, either. Therefore, DSD over HDMI may be the better option than analog outs with the Oppo (although I have not compared the differences).

                          If I upgrade the Denon, it will probably be to the XMC-1. Nothing has been really firmed up in regards to the specs of the XMC-1, which may be the better long term option for me.
                          Panasonic TC-P65VT30
                          Onkyo Pro PR-SC5508 | M2Tech Young DAC | Emotiva XPA-1 (x3), XPA-2
                          Oppo BDP-93 | DirecTV HR23-700 HD-DVR | Pioneer PL-670 Turntable
                          Sony Playstation 3 | Nintendo Wii | Apple TV 2, Mac Mini (iTunes Server), iPad
                          B&W 804S, HTM3S, CWM DS8 | SVS PB12-NSD | Denon AH-D2000 Headphones
                          Tripp Lite HT1210ISOCTR Power Conditioner, SMART1000LCD UPS System
                          My Bowers & Wilkins 800 Series Setup
                          Next Upgrade: Cables

                          Comment

                          • Marco Lisi
                            Member
                            • May 2008
                            • 84

                            #14
                            Originally posted by DM3000 Owner
                            The 804s are rated for a 50 to 200 wpc amp. If you are using a high quality amp, why go above the 250 wpc version? What do you expect to gain?
                            In most cases a B&W speakers excells if you drive up the power above the specified ratings. It is no secret that B&W speakers love power
                            Diamond Room
                            Acoustical treated room with reference 7.3 av system

                            Comment

                            • BassThatHz
                              Senior Member
                              • Jul 2006
                              • 153

                              #15
                              Originally posted by louhamilton
                              Why do you think it will not do well with the monoblocks as a pre/pro? What is it lacking?
                              You have identified the amp as the weakest link, and you want to dispose of it because that is the biggest dissatisfaction BUT...
                              What if this IS a false-negative scenario?

                              What if the largest benefit resides with a dedicated pre/pro?

                              I'm assuming upgrading both at once is not an option... obviously upgrading both would bring the biggest improvment of all.

                              So if not, then it's worth phoning up your local Hi-Fi shop and asking if you can bring in your amp and receiver to test out the benefits a dedicated pre/pro vs bigger amp will bring to prove which is the best path, regardless of if you don't have any intent on making a purchase that day (nor find the right brand even).

                              There's nothing to lose in doing that, and you might just find something that changes a perception of focus as the "big-cure".

                              To answer your question though: A dedicated pre/pro typically has a more "pure" design, allowing for lower noise & distortion.

                              Comment

                              • leej
                                Member
                                • Feb 2009
                                • 82

                                #16
                                Originally posted by BassThatHz
                                I would replace the Denon with a UMC-1 first, that receiver probably won't get the best out of the monoblocks...

                                I was thinking of getting a UMC-1 myself for the HD audio decoding via HDMI for blu-ray. At that price you can't go wrong. They don't publish the %THD specs on it though... which makes me hesitate.

                                bi-amp with the monoblocks... :nos:
                                Why the UMC-1? Have you tried one? I hear a lot of buzz about this pre/pro, but haven't heard from anyone who has actually tried one. For all we know, it may not be much better than the Denon. Just because a few are bragging about their amps@price, doesn't mean that the UMC-1 will be a winner. I see that you're currently using Rotel. Any reason you'd consider replacing Rotel with UMC-1?
                                Lee J

                                Denon 4311ci; Rotel RB-1080; OPPO BDP-83 Universal Disk/Media Player
                                B&W 703 mains; B&W HTM2 Center; B&W CDM SNT-Surr; B&W CDM1nt-back; Pair of Rythmik F15 Subs

                                Comment

                                • Orb
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Aug 2008
                                  • 147

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by louhamilton
                                  Okay, guys.

                                  2010 upgraditis is starting to kick in. This, along with amp stands and associated cabling, would max out my budget for upgrades this year. My question is whether bi-amping would provide any benefit to the 804S's.

                                  Brand name aside, I am considering either a dedicated 500w monoblock per speaker, or a 250w 2-channel amp to bi-amp each speaker.

                                  Which do you think would provide me the larger/best benefit?
                                  Lou,
                                  if your starting from scratch, I would still look to see what stereo amps are around at the price of two monoblocks.
                                  Worth considering that purchasing a stereo amp at the same price of two monoblocks can sometimes get you more and up to a price range of products you may not had considered before.

                                  Personally I feel that exceptionally built stereo amps can and do match mono blocks.
                                  As an example, here in the UK two CAM400s put it in the same region as;
                                  Plinius SB301 MK2 (this is actually about £800 cheaper than two CAMs)
                                  Naim NAP 300 (this is £2,000 cheaper but requires other Naim products)
                                  Krell Evo 302 (ok this is slightly more expensive)
                                  Chord Electronics SPM1200E (£1,400 cheaper if not going for the integra legs).

                                  On top of these you have reference designs from such as Audio Research, Lyngdorf, Bryston, Simaudio Moon, etc.

                                  And if looking at the medium priced sector, then this is even more competitive these days when looking at the pricing of say Krell S-300i and other products that are around £500 cheaper and similarly priced.

                                  However I appreciate that you may desire a certain manufacturer's product and this may tie your hand to going monoblocks or indeed may feel you do get more from monoblocks, the above was just an example that it is still worth considering stereo amps that match two monos in price if you have the opportunity.

                                  Cheers
                                  Orb

                                  Comment

                                  • stuofsci02
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2009
                                    • 1241

                                    #18
                                    Orb,

                                    I auditioned the Chord SPM1200E (edit.. Outside of the SPM-4000) and that is the best sounding amp I have ever heard attached to B&W speakers.. Of course since I got the SPM 650 it is obvious I am partial to the Chord sound..
                                    Last edited by stuofsci02; 03 January 2010, 11:36 Sunday.
                                    Main System:
                                    B&W 801D
                                    Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                    Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                    Oppo BDP-105
                                    Squeezebox Touch


                                    Second System:
                                    B&W CM7
                                    Emotiva UMC-1
                                    Emotiva UPA-2
                                    Oppo BDP-83SE
                                    Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                    Comment

                                    • Hammie
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Oct 2005
                                      • 304

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Orb
                                      Lou,
                                      if your starting from scratch, I would still look to see what stereo amps are around at the price of two monoblocks.
                                      Worth considering that purchasing a stereo amp at the same price of two monoblocks can sometimes get you more and up to a price range of products you may not had considered before.

                                      Personally I feel that exceptionally built stereo amps can and do match mono blocks.
                                      As an example, here in the UK two CAM400s put it in the same region as;
                                      Plinius SB301 MK2 (this is actually about £800 cheaper than two CAMs)
                                      Naim NAP 300 (this is £2,000 cheaper but requires other Naim products)
                                      Krell Evo 302 (ok this is slightly more expensive)
                                      Chord Electronics SPM1200E (£1,400 cheaper if not going for the integra legs).

                                      On top of these you have reference designs from such as Audio Research, Lyngdorf, Bryston, Simaudio Moon, etc.

                                      And if looking at the medium priced sector, then this is even more competitive these days when looking at the pricing of say Krell S-300i and other products that are around £500 cheaper and similarly priced.

                                      However I appreciate that you may desire a certain manufacturer's product and this may tie your hand to going monoblocks or indeed may feel you do get more from monoblocks, the above was just an example that it is still worth considering stereo amps that match two monos in price if you have the opportunity.

                                      Cheers
                                      Orb
                                      Thanks for the input. Good information there.

                                      I'm looking at two amps (one for each front) for aesthetic symmetry. It might sound silly, but I would put the amps outside my AV cabinet between the cabinet and the speaker. That was the reason for either two monoblocks or two 2-channel amps. If I only went with one 2-channel amp, it would not look right to me. You can see a link to my setup in my signature.
                                      Panasonic TC-P65VT30
                                      Onkyo Pro PR-SC5508 | M2Tech Young DAC | Emotiva XPA-1 (x3), XPA-2
                                      Oppo BDP-93 | DirecTV HR23-700 HD-DVR | Pioneer PL-670 Turntable
                                      Sony Playstation 3 | Nintendo Wii | Apple TV 2, Mac Mini (iTunes Server), iPad
                                      B&W 804S, HTM3S, CWM DS8 | SVS PB12-NSD | Denon AH-D2000 Headphones
                                      Tripp Lite HT1210ISOCTR Power Conditioner, SMART1000LCD UPS System
                                      My Bowers & Wilkins 800 Series Setup
                                      Next Upgrade: Cables

                                      Comment

                                      • stuofsci02
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2009
                                        • 1241

                                        #20
                                        What is your budget if you don't mind me asking?
                                        Main System:
                                        B&W 801D
                                        Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                        Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                        Oppo BDP-105
                                        Squeezebox Touch


                                        Second System:
                                        B&W CM7
                                        Emotiva UMC-1
                                        Emotiva UPA-2
                                        Oppo BDP-83SE
                                        Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                        Comment

                                        • Hammie
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Oct 2005
                                          • 304

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by stuofsci02
                                          What is your budget if you don't mind me asking?
                                          It was $3500 for amps, amp stands and cables. I was considering either the Emotiva XPA-1 or XPA-2, Mapleshade Records Amp Stands, and either Valab or CatCable speaker wires and IC's.

                                          I'm now second guessing the amps and considering upgrading my Pre/Pro. So, I'm looking for decent ones in the $3K range so I can spare about $500 for cables.
                                          Panasonic TC-P65VT30
                                          Onkyo Pro PR-SC5508 | M2Tech Young DAC | Emotiva XPA-1 (x3), XPA-2
                                          Oppo BDP-93 | DirecTV HR23-700 HD-DVR | Pioneer PL-670 Turntable
                                          Sony Playstation 3 | Nintendo Wii | Apple TV 2, Mac Mini (iTunes Server), iPad
                                          B&W 804S, HTM3S, CWM DS8 | SVS PB12-NSD | Denon AH-D2000 Headphones
                                          Tripp Lite HT1210ISOCTR Power Conditioner, SMART1000LCD UPS System
                                          My Bowers & Wilkins 800 Series Setup
                                          Next Upgrade: Cables

                                          Comment

                                          • stuofsci02
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2009
                                            • 1241

                                            #22
                                            Yeah.. Pre-pro is what I need to do next too.. I hate running pass through on my AVR...
                                            Main System:
                                            B&W 801D
                                            Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                            Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                            Oppo BDP-105
                                            Squeezebox Touch


                                            Second System:
                                            B&W CM7
                                            Emotiva UMC-1
                                            Emotiva UPA-2
                                            Oppo BDP-83SE
                                            Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                            Comment

                                            • Orb
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Aug 2008
                                              • 147

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by louhamilton
                                              Thanks for the input. Good information there.

                                              I'm looking at two amps (one for each front) for aesthetic symmetry. It might sound silly, but I would put the amps outside my AV cabinet between the cabinet and the speaker. That was the reason for either two monoblocks or two 2-channel amps. If I only went with one 2-channel amp, it would not look right to me. You can see a link to my setup in my signature.
                                              Lou, nothing silly about that as it is about enjoyment
                                              Hope you find the monos your after :T

                                              Cheers
                                              Orb

                                              Comment

                                              • Orb
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Aug 2008
                                                • 147

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by stuofsci02
                                                Orb,

                                                I auditioned the Chord SPM1200E (edit.. Outside of the SPM-4000) and that is the best sounding amp I have ever heard attached to B&W speakers.. Of course since I got the SPM 650 it is obvious I am partial to the Chord sound..
                                                And hopefully still having fun with the Chord

                                                Cheers
                                                Orb

                                                Comment

                                                • stuofsci02
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Nov 2009
                                                  • 1241

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Orb
                                                  And hopefully still having fun with the Chord

                                                  Cheers
                                                  Orb
                                                  Yes Sir! It really shines with the 804s..
                                                  Main System:
                                                  B&W 801D
                                                  Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                                  Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                                  Oppo BDP-105
                                                  Squeezebox Touch


                                                  Second System:
                                                  B&W CM7
                                                  Emotiva UMC-1
                                                  Emotiva UPA-2
                                                  Oppo BDP-83SE
                                                  Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Hammie
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Oct 2005
                                                    • 304

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by stuofsci02
                                                    Yeah.. Pre-pro is what I need to do next too.. I hate running pass through on my AVR...
                                                    Have you started looking at any particular Pre/Pro's?

                                                    I'd like to see some professional reviews of the new Integra DHC-80.1. That looks promising on paper.

                                                    I haven't really looked too much at ones in the $3K range yet. The two things I like that my Denon currently provides is DSD over HDMI and a web based GUI to control it from my laptop. It is great when I am in a different room and need to lower the volume quickly.
                                                    Panasonic TC-P65VT30
                                                    Onkyo Pro PR-SC5508 | M2Tech Young DAC | Emotiva XPA-1 (x3), XPA-2
                                                    Oppo BDP-93 | DirecTV HR23-700 HD-DVR | Pioneer PL-670 Turntable
                                                    Sony Playstation 3 | Nintendo Wii | Apple TV 2, Mac Mini (iTunes Server), iPad
                                                    B&W 804S, HTM3S, CWM DS8 | SVS PB12-NSD | Denon AH-D2000 Headphones
                                                    Tripp Lite HT1210ISOCTR Power Conditioner, SMART1000LCD UPS System
                                                    My Bowers & Wilkins 800 Series Setup
                                                    Next Upgrade: Cables

                                                    Comment

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