Bi amping thoughts

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  • sunshdw
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 92

    Bi amping thoughts

    Hey gang!! I just aquired another Rotel amp and I've been kickin around biamping my 683s. I already have a RB1080 right currently and just picked up a RB1070. In my last theater system I started with one Marantz MA500 to each 602s3 and then added a second a short time after that. To me it made a very noticeable difference (I know opinions vary) in the over all sound. My intial thought was to put the RB 1070 to the woofers and the 1080 to the mids and tweeters. I've also been thinking about the dampning factor differences between the two and that would point to the 1080 to the bass and 1070 to the top. Or I could just leave it alone...............which is the wifes suggestion

    Thoughts??
    Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

    "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"
  • dyazdani
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Oct 2005
    • 7032

    #2
    Try them both ways and see what you like the best.

    Now if you need to get rid of one of them to stay married, then that's another issue!
    Danish

    Comment

    • htsteve
      Super Senior Member
      • Sep 2004
      • 1216

      #3
      sunshdw,

      The bass drivers will require the most power, by far. So the 1080 should be on those, while the 1070 on the upper end.

      I've had mixed results when bi-amping, so I am curious to hear how it goes for you.


      Hope this helps.

      Comment

      • wettou
        Ultra Senior Member
        • May 2006
        • 3389

        #4
        Originally posted by htsteve
        sunshdw, The bass drivers will require the most power, by far. So the 1080 should be on those, while the 1070 on the upper end. I've had mixed results when bi-amping, so I am curious to hear how it goes for you. Hope this helps.
        Mixed results? Please elaborate ......
        Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

        Comment

        • boarder1995
          Member
          • Sep 2009
          • 68

          #5
          The amps should be of the same power to top and bottom drivers, otherwise the sound will be unbalanced regarding bass (too much) and mid/treble. The upper range doesn't take as much power, when strictly talking about the drivers, but that signal also needs to go through the crossover to get there, thus a much higher resistance. This is how a single amp input gets properly sorted between the mid/treble and the bass. The only time you can get by with a smaller top amp is if you crossover prior to amplification. Then the crossed-over signal doesn't need the power up top to drive straight to mids/tweeters, versus power requirements on the bottom.

          Comment

          • htsteve
            Super Senior Member
            • Sep 2004
            • 1216

            #6
            wettou,

            My mixed results were that after spending money on the extra amp channels and extra cabling, I didn't get the bang for the buck I was looking for. Was it better? A bit. For the money I spent? Not as good as I was hoping for.

            Since then, twice I've gone with a stereo amp and had the results I was looking for. An accross the board improvement.

            Everyone's situation is different (equipment, room acoustics, etc.). Some might get more than I did from passive bi-amping.


            Hope this helps.
            Last edited by htsteve; 23 December 2009, 07:45 Wednesday.

            Comment

            • Kal Rubinson
              Super Senior Member
              • Mar 2006
              • 2109

              #7
              Originally posted by boarder1995
              The amps should be of the same power to top and bottom drivers, otherwise the sound will be unbalanced regarding bass (too much) and mid/treble.
              And they must be of the same gain (or be adjustable). This is more likely a cause of imbalance than any power differences. In fact, there's usually no way to make use of the full power of the treble amp since overall levels will be constrained by the output of the bass amp.
              Kal Rubinson
              _______________________________
              "Music in the Round"
              Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
              http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

              Comment

              • peter clarke
                Member
                • Oct 2006
                • 53

                #8
                bi-amping

                Dear All, A great review on dagogo.com by Ed Momkus re bi-amping his 800D's

                Comment

                • sunshdw
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 92

                  #9
                  I I finally had the chance to give it a go, in a nutshell it was a step back. I tried switching amps from bottom to top and it actually sounded better with the 1080 on the top. Either way it didn't sound better than my 1080 by itself. So due to my findings I will sell the RB1070 and use it towards something else. :T
                  Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

                  "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

                  Comment

                  • Freddie40
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2009
                    • 152

                    #10
                    Try bi-wiring now.

                    Dave
                    Crystal Clear Music Tweaked Mac Mini / Yosemite -> JRiver 20 -> Ayre QB9DSD -> Bryston BP26DA -> Bryston 4BSST2 -> B&W 802Di | Transparent Reference XLRs, Transparent Super Speaker Cable, Maple Shade USB cable, Crystal Clear Music Power Cords

                    Comment

                    • sunshdw
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 92

                      #11
                      Tried that in the past and never really heard a difference
                      Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

                      "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

                      Comment

                      • wettou
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • May 2006
                        • 3389

                        #12
                        Originally posted by htsteve
                        wettou,My mixed results were that after spending money on the extra amp channels and extra cabling, I didn't get the bang for the buck I was looking for. Was it better? A bit. For the money I spent? Not as good as I was hoping for. Since then, twice I've gone with a stereo amp and had the results I was looking for. An accross the board improvement.

                        Everyone's situation is different (equipment, room acoustics, etc.). Some might get more than I did form passive bi-amping. Hope this helps.
                        How about bridging the amps for more power?
                        Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                        Comment

                        • Horacio
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2005
                          • 142

                          #13
                          What Wettou suggests (bridging amps) would be to biamp by using a whole amp for the right speaker and another whole amp for the left speaker. I believe this is what specialized is doing (he post that on another thread).

                          I always get confused what is vertical and what is horizontal biamping - whatever! One is the method described above, and the other uses a stereo amp (or 2 monoblocks) for the mid/trebble for left and right speakers and another stereo amp (or monos) for bass left and right. Now if you go straight from your preamp to these two amps, each amp sees the whole bandwidth signal and hence reproduces it. To gain the full advantage of biamping with this method, a crossover between the preamp and the amps needs to be included. That x/o serves mainly 2 purposes: a) gain matching between amps, and b) filtering frequencies to be reproduced by each amp. So for instance the RB1070 could be used to reproduce only above 350 Hz and the RB1080 to do so under 350. The theory goes on and on and is a great theory.

                          The question is when the rubber meets the road, some that come to mind now:
                          • Do 2 monblocks worth the same amount as the two stereo amps + x/o + additional cabling sound better or worse than the latter? I believe this is what HTSteve referred to. In some cases is not worth it. In some it is.
                          • Generally speaking x/o are rather cheap components compared to the amps we use, so will the x/o degrade the signal? Like before, to some people sometimes it does, to others it doesn't.


                          Over at another forum a guy swears by biamping with 4 McIntosh stereo amps all bridged and used in mono: 2 MC275 (tubes; one for left mid/trebble, the other for right mid/trebble) + 2 MC252 (SS, one for left bass, one for right bass) + 2 DBX 233 (comparatively cheap crossovers) used one for right and one for left. He's got me thinking that it might be a matter of getting the implementation right. I tried biamping my 804S with RB1080 (for bass) and MC275 (for mid/hi) without the x/o and it didn't work for me, including gain mismatch, so it wasn't a good comparison. I'm thinking of getting a DBX crossover and try it again, though.

                          My thoughts/ramblings on the subject
                          I hope it helps.

                          Horacio

                          Comment

                          • theblue
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2009
                            • 116

                            #14
                            I have a Marantz SR5002 (amp only being uses for the rear speakers) and a rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels for the mains, 1 for my center).

                            I'm bi-powering my B&W 683s and they just love the extra power, I think they'd like even more (than the 100rms x4)

                            I have a couple rca "F" connectors on the back of my pre so that I can repeat the signal wire going to the amp and thus bi-power
                            Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                            rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                            B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                            a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                            Comment

                            • Kal Rubinson
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Mar 2006
                              • 2109

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Horacio
                              What Wettou suggests (bridging amps) would be to biamp by using a whole amp for the right speaker and another whole amp for the left speaker.
                              Nope. Bridging is a technique where you feed the same signal to both channels of an amp but invert the polarity for one channel. Then you wire the speaker load across the two (+)terminals of the stereo amp. This, when done in the right amp, will double the output voltage with a commensurate increase in power, if the PS and output devices can handle the current. It does not involve "bi-amping."

                              That x/o serves mainly 2 purposes: a) gain matching between amps, and b) filtering frequencies to be reproduced by each amp.
                              Nope, there is a biggie you left out. It also serves to compensate for the in-band performance variations of each speaker driver. That's why no off-the-shelf electronic crossover is worth beans.
                              Kal Rubinson
                              _______________________________
                              "Music in the Round"
                              Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                              http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                              Comment

                              • Armbender
                                Senior Member
                                • Jul 2005
                                • 265

                                #16
                                I have an XPA 5 but only ust 3 channels, 2 mains and centre...i was gonna get some jumpers for my 604's but wonder if i should just run the two remaining channels to the 604;s and bi-amp...

                                any thoughts..
                                Samsung UN60C6300 | Primare SP32 | Primare A30.7 | Oppo BDP-103 | PS Audio Quintet | AppleTV | ELAC 247 Black Edition | ELAC CC 241 Black Edition | B&W DM 600 S3 | SVS PC 13 Ultra | Straight Wire Virtuoso | Harmonic Technology Pro 9's | Black Sands Power Cords

                                Comment

                                • Antus
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Apr 2008
                                  • 141

                                  #17
                                  bridging and bi-amping are a give and take game. in theroy, both can improve performance IF the amp is considered a perfect voltage source.

                                  while bridging two amp, u will run two 8ohm amp in 4ohm mode. these two amp work in series. as a result, it is still 8ohm in total output. however, the power will be FOUR times if the amp is perfectly designed. (because a perfect voltage source will double it's power when impendence cut in half. and you are running two double powered amp in series)
                                  Although it sounds too good too be true, there are some disadvantages. first, most amps has higher distortion at lower impendence, higher current mode. in many case, the distortion is twice as much comparing to 8ohm. connecting in series, u double the distortion again. in short, the distortion will also raise 4 times.
                                  In short, bi-amp or bridging? which offer more advantages depends on the amp you are using, the efficiency of your speakers, and how laud you like to play the music.

                                  Comment

                                  • Kal Rubinson
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Mar 2006
                                    • 2109

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Antus
                                    In short, bi-amp or bridging? which offer more advantages depends on the amp you are using, the efficiency of your speakers, and how laud you like to play the music.
                                    I just use a single adequate amp channel per speaker. :T
                                    Kal Rubinson
                                    _______________________________
                                    "Music in the Round"
                                    Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                    Comment

                                    • wettou
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • May 2006
                                      • 3389

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                      I just use a single adequate amp channel per speaker. :T
                                      Yes I agree that is the best but what happens when you don't want to throw away your old amp and want more power?

                                      Bridging or Biamping works?

                                      Also did you ever retry the Classé SSP-800 with the SCD-XA5400ES and did you get multichannel?

                                      "I wanted to take another stab at confirming my conclusion, reached after a trial at a local audio shop of the Sony with an early Classé SSP-800 preamplifier-processor, that the Sony wouldn't output PCM via HDMI from SACDs (see "Music in the Round," July 2009). Sony's PR agency insisted that the SCD-XA5400ES would output PCM via HDMI, but there's no mention of it in Sony's documents, and no user control of the HDMI data format. With the Classé SSP-800, DSD tracks were silent; only "Red Book" CD datastreams worked via HDMI."
                                      Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                      Comment

                                      • theblue
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Dec 2009
                                        • 116

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Armbender
                                        I have an XPA 5 but only ust 3 channels, 2 mains and centre...i was gonna get some jumpers for my 604's but wonder if i should just run the two remaining channels to the 604;s and bi-amp...

                                        any thoughts..
                                        do it! you'll love the improvement and you've already got the extra power sitting unused. borrow some interconnects and speaker cables from a friend to test before you invest if you want.

                                        before I purchased my 683s, I was bi-powering my 601s as fronts and you didn't have to be an audiophile to hear the difference.

                                        sure a better two channel amp will be better, but you're like me in that you already have an amp that's not being used to its potential.
                                        Marantz SR5002 (music fed by apple airport express via optical)
                                        rotel RB-985 THX (4 channels bipowering fronts, 1 for the center)
                                        B&W - 683, CDM-CNT, CDS3 (sides), DM601 (rears)
                                        a combo of haveflex and audioquest cables.

                                        Comment

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