RB-1080 BiAmping with 800 Series

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  • specialized
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2008
    • 332

    RB-1080 BiAmping with 800 Series

    Last week i got another RB-1080 (stock is almost gone so i wanted to have another one which i'll use maybe for rears, maybe for center, maybe for next room, maybe to try biamping, so i thinked that definitly is not a waste).

    I tried to biamp my speakers using Van Den Hull Cables CS-122. Once i treid with second Rotel Rb-1080 , but i tried with Y Cable and in that time i didnt have my McIntosh C2300 preamp. As i readed around that is not worth to biamp i got the same experience..
    But now totaly different.. Im connecting one channel of Rotel to Highs connectors on speaker, and second channel to Lows. And then connected to first output of C2300 Preamp. Same thing with other Rotel.

    The sound that i got.. Amazing.. Before i write this post i wanted to listen for few days.. What is the difference compared to only one Rotel:

    1. Better Dinamics (much better)
    2. Clear sound (specialy on vocals)
    3. Better Pin Point imaging
    4. Highs are more natural and like they opened a lot (cymbals have real sound for example not just tshh tshh)
    5. Tighter bass
    6. Seem to me like more natural timber of instruments
    7. I can listen much much more louder without compressing and harshness

    After listening for few days, i wanted to hear opinion from other guys who are interested in Hi Fi.. Everyone got excited how good is sounding..

    And yesterday i got a visit from one my friend who is proffessional Jazz Musician :



    His ears are definitly more trained then mine, so that was critical opinion

    I asked him to listen things that he know and to try to find complaints.

    He was also amazed.. He said he never listen something like that before.. He said he didnt expect to have that live and real sound on Hi Fi ..

    Im writing this post becouse when i wanted to upgrade from RB-1080 to something better, and i could not find solution that is not so expensive.
    I tried Primare A32 which i didnt like at all (too much bass, very syntetic timber). Then i tried MC501 McIntosh. Wonderfull sound, and i decided that is the way to go.. Until i didnt tried this Biamp setup. MC501 sound definitly better then what i have now, but not much better. And i think Bass and drums have more authority on Rotels compared to MC501 (it sounded a bit soft and rounder on MC501).

    So if someone looking for upgrade, try definitly second RB-1080. I think is very cheap upgrade for what u get. This week if i have enough time i'll get another RB-1080 to biamp my center as well. Also im planing to shorten the speakers cables as much as possible becouse now im using rotels as monoblocks so it can be placed just behind the speakers, and to go with longer interconnects.

    Greetings

    Darko
  • Race Car Driver
    Super Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 1537

    #2
    I dont see how some state bi-amping cant be worth it with the bigger 800 series.

    If anyone has ever looked inside the 800 series you will find that bottom pair of posts are sent directly through the LF crossover and the top pair of posts go through the mf/hf crossovers. The lows and the mid/highs are kept independant.

    Bi-amping the 800 series will allow 1 amp to power the woofers and 1 amp to power the mid/tweet. Crossovers still inline and all.

    Those are my thoughts.
    B&W

    Comment

    • WelshOne
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 117

      #3
      Good work!

      Spooky timing re your post, as ive been researching this as a possibility lately.

      Ive read about as many positive posts as I have negative re biamping.

      I have just ordered x2 1572 2x250 class d amps to home demo, to power my 803D's. They are currently being powered by a 1575, including the HTM2D, and 805S.

      I was advised to go for a big SS amp to drive the 803D's, just for the 2ch improvement, but I dont want to mix and match power amps, and dont have the funds to go all out uber amp for all channels

      So ive ignored the advice and done the opposite

      Nothing to lose, everything to gain. If it doesnt do anything i'll just give them back and try something else.

      Good to hear its worked well for you!

      Comment

      • htsteve
        Super Senior Member
        • Sep 2004
        • 1216

        #4
        WelshOne,

        Nice plan. Your own ears in your own room will tell you what you need to know. Based on my experience, you likely will see a jump in refinement using the 1572 vs. 2 channels of the 1575. Then I'll be curious to see if the 2nd 1572 adds to it. I've had a mixed bag when I've biamped.


        Enjoy your testing.

        Comment

        • WelshOne
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 117

          #5
          Based on my experience, you likely will see a jump in refinement using the 1572 vs. 2 channels of the 1575
          Thanks Steve. Wow, would not have necessarily have expected much of a difference between a standalone 1572 vs the the two channels of the 1575?

          Hopefully the amps shouldnt take too long to come in?

          In that case ill compare the 1575(only 2channels) vs 1572 vs x2 1572's vertically bi amped.

          I have to say im more than happy with the performance of the 1575 for AV, and its also very good for music. Im just curious as to what 'extra' I can gain from attempting the above?

          I'll keep you posted on the outcome. Im not sure what to expect tbh, the cost of the two 1572's is around £1500 GBP after some discount. A second hand Bryston 4BSST (which my dealer recommends) is approx the same, for example? I can also get one of these from my dealer for a demo, although their ex dem price is approx £3000GBP. Not sure if i'll be pushing my luck to have them all at home at once though :roll:

          Should be fun 8)

          Comment

          • htsteve
            Super Senior Member
            • Sep 2004
            • 1216

            #6
            WelshOne,

            A stereo amp of similar wattage does not have to share current like the 1575 would have to share. The 1572 will be able to deliver more current to the speaker. This will improve control of the driver, resulting in improved performance.

            I've done this twice. I had N804's on a Rotel 1095. Then got a 1080 and immediately noticed refinement and better bass tightness on the N804's. The 1080 simply controlled the speaker better. Same thing happened with my current setup (802D's and McIntosh). I had a 5 channel amp. Then I got a stereo amp, and the same noticable improvement happened. The stereo amp just could deliver current. The 803D will love the extra current of the 1572.

            Yes, I definitely recommend adding one piece at a time. See how just one 1572 does. Add the second one and evaluate. Your ears will decide for you.

            Hopefully these will come in soon for you.

            As to the Bryston idea. While I like Bryston, I am not a fan of mixing amps in a set up. Tonality will very likely be different. That will most likely become annoying over time. Best to stick with one amp maker.


            Have fun.

            Comment

            • WelshOne
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 117

              #7
              Great, thanks for sharing that. It certainly will be in interesting demo.

              What you say makes sense to me now. Im very happy with the system, I just know the 2ch could be improved more. Im looking for that 3d holographic presentation that ive heard on some systems. Currently it sounds very detailed, a touch harsh and maybe too forward, but mostly its a little too 2 dimentional for my liking. Im looking for that 'pop out the speaker' factor?

              My quest for this hasnt started well though, the Cambridge Audio 840C I bought 2 days ago has just given up the ghost. Wont read cd's anymore :M

              Comment

              • htsteve
                Super Senior Member
                • Sep 2004
                • 1216

                #8
                WelshOne,

                Looking forward to your results. Bummer on the CD player. I assume the dealer will replace the unit.

                Another thing to do with the 803D's is to either spike them or put then on stands. Isolation for these will add to the soundstage and clean things up a little (which will help for 2 channel). There are definitely spikes you can get (I believe B&W uses M6 or M8 threads). Sounds Anchors are some stands I have had good success with. Here is the 803D stand. It appears they will ship internationally.





                Hope this helps.
                Last edited by htsteve; 06 December 2009, 07:57 Sunday.

                Comment

                • wettou
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • May 2006
                  • 3389

                  #9
                  Any one compared CAM-400 vs Bel Canto Ref1000M with 802Ds?
                  Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                  Comment

                  • WelshOne
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 117

                    #10
                    Cheers.

                    The 803D's are on spikes, then sitting on small 3/4" granite chopping boards, then on thick laminate flooring.

                    The store replaced the 840C with a brand new unit. Strangely, this unit sounds better from straight out the box than the other one which had over 30 hours on it? Ive read this unit can take 200 hrs to bed on though?? 8O

                    Anyway, not to take the thread too offtopic, in what way did you have mixed results in biamping?

                    Thanks

                    David

                    Comment

                    • htsteve
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Sep 2004
                      • 1216

                      #11
                      Originally posted by WelshOne
                      Anyway, not to take the thread too offtopic, in what way did you have mixed results in biamping?

                      David
                      David,

                      My mixed results were that after spending money on the extra amp channels and extra cabling, I didn't get the bang for the buck I was looking for. Was it better? A bit. For the money I spent? Not as good as I was hoping for.

                      Since then, twice I've gone with a stereo amp and had the results I was looking for. An accross the board improvement.

                      Everyone's situation is different (equipment, room acoustics, etc.). You are doing the very best thing, which is to audition the gear in your environment. Then you can truly assess.

                      Do you have the opportunity to do room treatments? This is something you can talk to your dealer about. A stereo amp and some room treatments might be the very best way to spend the money.

                      Here are some room treatments to consider, some of which you can do yourself:

                      * Carpeting or at least a rug in front of the main speakers. (You said you have laminate, a hard surface)

                      * Curtains on windows.

                      * Bass traps.

                      * First point reflection panels.



                      Hope this helps.

                      Comment

                      • emig5m
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2008
                        • 646

                        #12
                        Hmmm.. I never bi-amped before. Since I already have a five channel power amp plus my receivers 7 channels of amplification, the only thing I have to lose is a little time and maybe a pair of splitter cables since I could always power my rears with the receivers amps. That's how I would connect the pre-amp left and right to the power amp for bi-amping the mains, right? Split the left and right into two each? I wonder if my processor has channel mapping where I could use the unused rear surround back channels as a mirrored front main channels so I wouldn't have to split the two front mains into four...

                        I have the extra speaker wire laying around, just don't have the RCA splitter cables. Would be cool to try just for the fun of it since it would only cost me at the most, a splitter for the left and right channels.

                        Comment

                        • WelshOne
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 117

                          #13
                          Ah ok, I thought maybe you were referring to some sort of degredation in sound?

                          The reason I query is because recently I used the 1575 to biamp the 803D's, and found the top end very forward, almost losing the coherence of the music? Initially it was exciting, but after a long listening session one evening I found it fatiguing?

                          I have discounted this experience however, as I was using cheap phono splitters, and the amp channels on the 1575 are configured using different modules, and all coming off the same power supply. I felt this wasnt a fair test to see what benefits biamping could bring, hence me hopefully getting two stereo 1572's.

                          The other reason for me hoping for a successful biamp demo, is that I can then use the spare channel in the 1575 to biamp the centre, thus having the front x3 speakers all biamped with the same power. Im just looking for everything to match as much as possible.

                          Im not sure if that theory is a correct one though :roll:

                          Thanks for the advice re the room, although all the kit is going to have to go into another room in time, i'll bump the original thread so as not to derail this one.

                          Cheers

                          David

                          Comment

                          • specialized
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2008
                            • 332

                            #14
                            I just got more RB-1080 And biamped the Center channel as well.

                            Now the front stage is totaly awesome sounding, and too bad there is no more RB-1080 on stock

                            Anyway, now my 800 series front speakers (803s/HTM3S), is league above CM series in the back (CM1), and i'll definitly try to get 804s if they are still available for selling (i hope it could be possible to get one pair).

                            I find out with RB-1080 biamped i got so much sound difference compared to CM's. Connected to my Denon or only one Rotel there was not so much difference in clearness..

                            Greetings

                            Darko

                            Comment

                            • BWzes03
                              Member
                              • Oct 2005
                              • 96

                              #15
                              Specialized: I've done the exact same thing with my Nautilus 804's. I powered them with a single RB-1080, and I got a chance to purchase a second RB-1080 (second hand) for such a good deal, I'd buy it anyway, for either my HomeTheatre or trying bi-amping.
                              Since I've got a Rotel RC-1090, which has two outputs, I tried bi-amping first.

                              The differences are exactly in line with your descriptions all seven of them.
                              Its almost like I got new speakers, or, I finally realized their full potential.
                              I'm still, after running like this for 6 months, amazed at how good it sounds....

                              Comment

                              • specialized
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2008
                                • 332

                                #16
                                Originally posted by BWzes03
                                Specialized: I've done the exact same thing with my Nautilus 804's. I powered them with a single RB-1080, and I got a chance to purchase a second RB-1080 (second hand) for such a good deal, I'd buy it anyway, for either my HomeTheatre or trying bi-amping.
                                Since I've got a Rotel RC-1090, which has two outputs, I tried bi-amping first.

                                The differences are exactly in line with your descriptions all seven of them.
                                Its almost like I got new speakers, or, I finally realized their full potential.
                                I'm still, after running like this for 6 months, amazed at how good it sounds....

                                Yesterday we watched few concerts and it was totaly new feeling.. Like i never saw them before.. So tight and clear front end.. Too bad my rears are not on pair with the fronts.. I'm trying to get 804s for rears , and if i do that i'll try to find two more rotels.. And my setup would be done.. Ok at least for few months

                                Darko

                                Comment

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