B&W 803n Sound Flat To Me

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  • Hoopofficial
    Member
    • Dec 2004
    • 44

    B&W 803n Sound Flat To Me

    Just purchased a used pair of Nautilus 803. Initial evaluation is that they sound incredibly flat to me. Vocals sound chesty and the sound lacks "air". Instrumentals sound wonderful but vocals are "thick". Any thoughts? Room is 13 x 30. 13 foot ceilings. Speaker placement is roughly 10 inches off rear walls with ample room on each side. Speakers are roughly 7 feet apart. Rotel 200w amp and B&K pre-amp. Overall, I'm somewhat dissapointed in these. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.
  • William
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2006
    • 194

    #2
    Are you sure the tweeters are operating? If your initial evaluation was that they sounded flat whey did you buy them?

    In general B&W speakers are more often described as being somewhat bright (especially the N's with aluminum tweeters).

    Comment

    • Hoopofficial
      Member
      • Dec 2004
      • 44

      #3
      William, thanks for resonding. Tweeters are working fine. Purchased used with minimum audition time. You never know what anything sounds like until you get them in your listening room with a variety of music and long duration audition. The 803 have always been something I wanted to have but could not afford new retail. Found a nice mint pair at a local dealer at a reasonable price. My main issue with them are vocal presence (male and female) or lack there of. Insturmentally, they sound fine but I'm not into Jazz and the like. Definetly think it was a bad choice for me but I will see if the B&W sound grows on me. Right now, I'm thinking it won't but you never know.

      B&W = Bright. It is all relative but I can't fathom anyone thinking the B&W sound is bright based on what I'm hearing. IMHO. It is as flat as it gets.

      Comment

      • sunshdw
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 92

        #4
        Can you pull them another 10 - 14"s from the back wall? To me it seems like you have them a little close to the back wall.
        Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

        "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

        Comment

        • Hoopofficial
          Member
          • Dec 2004
          • 44

          #5
          No can do. Wall placement is a constraint. I figured since they were ported in the front it would be less of an issue. Did these come with port plugs when new? The manual references some but the manual is written for the entire 800 series.

          Comment

          • sunshdw
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 92

            #6
            They should come with some but I doubt that's going to help. Give it a try though once you aquire some
            Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

            "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

            Comment

            • Eliav
              Senior Member
              • Jul 2005
              • 484

              #7
              HI
              Room acoustics and speaker placement may be playing a major role in what you hear. Usually " boxed" sound and chesty sound comes from close proximity between the rear walls and speakers. are you using spikes ? try to de-couple the speakres from the floor that may give you a more accurate lower ends. How would you describe your room; is it heavily furnished, carpets, curtains, glass surfaces, large wooden surfaces etc.
              Keep in mind, the sound you hear is an integration of your system, your listening position and your room acoustics/response. since your system is a constatnt, you may want to audition different listening positions and modify your room acoustics.
              Good Luck
              Eliav
              :T Socrat

              Comment

              • wettou
                Ultra Senior Member
                • May 2006
                • 3389

                #8
                Originally posted by Hoopofficial
                Just purchased a used pair of Nautilus 803. Initial evaluation is that they sound incredibly flat to me. Vocals sound chesty and the sound lacks "air". Instrumentals sound wonderful but vocals are "thick". Any thoughts? Room is 13 x 30. 13 foot ceilings. Speaker placement is roughly 10 inches off rear walls with ample room on each side. Speakers are roughly 7 feet apart. Rotel 200w amp and B&K pre-amp. Overall, I'm somewhat dissapointed in these. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.
                How dead is your room?
                Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                Comment

                • emig5m
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2008
                  • 646

                  #9
                  Wow.. I'm going to have to try to get some video uploaded to Youtube of my 804S's and show you how SWEET vocals sound on the 800 series (well for what's it's worth with compressed video recorded from a cheap camcorder). You should be nothing but impressed with those speakers, ESPECIALLY vocals.

                  Comment

                  • boarder1995
                    Member
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 68

                    #10
                    Check the connections on the binding post bridge wires and, if you can, underneath in the crossover system. Make sure nothing rattled loose or got pulled loose during delivery. Can you hear the tweeters working up close? I know you said they work, but you didn't specify at home or just in the showroom. Anyway, good luck resolving your potential issues.

                    Comment

                    • george_k
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2004
                      • 342

                      #11
                      Seriously, pull them farther out from the wall temporarily and give them a listen then report back.

                      Comment

                      • Briz vegas
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 1199

                        #12
                        Could not agree more about the wall issue. My 804 are 3ft from the wall,

                        Only other suggestion I can think of is to put something on that back wall (like a fabric wall hanging) so that it does not reflect the sound back at you. It may help a little.
                        Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
                        Siamese :evil: :twisted:

                        Comment

                        • numberoneoppa
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2009
                          • 535

                          #13
                          Agreed, they shouldn't sound flat (more like dull is what you're describing). I've not experienced the 803 series, but the 804s are anything but what you're describing. Strange.
                          -Josh

                          That feeling when things are finally going right. Yeah, that one.

                          Comment

                          • boarder1995
                            Member
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 68

                            #14
                            These units he has are N803 also, so they won't be that similar to an 804s or 803s, will they?

                            Comment

                            • Hoopofficial
                              Member
                              • Dec 2004
                              • 44

                              #15
                              Thank you for all the feedback. I moved the speaker farther off the walls and it did help a bit but unfortunately I can't leave them there due to room restrictions. The room is normally a very bright room. Carpeted but minimal wall coverings. I am using the floor spikes but was considering Sound Anchors. I just don't know if I like the look of these stands. I typically have issues with speakers being to bright in this room. This seems to be the opposite issue with the 803n. I'm going to take these beasts down into my HT room and hook them up tonight to see what the heck they sound like down there. The room is totally different. A drop ceiling with Acoustic tile and not rectangular. Perhaps the room is the culprit but I thought the room characteristics would help offset the laid back nature of the B&W sound. It is all relative but compared to what I have in my HT room (Monitor Audio GR 60 with center and surrounds) these are laid back. Monitor Audio's are very detailed and in my B&W listening area are much too bright to tolerate. They really sing in my HT room given the deadening effect of the acoustic treatements. I would think that the B&W would sound worse down there but I love experimenting. I just hope I don't throw my back out getting the 803n down there.

                              Comment

                              • dyazdani
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Oct 2005
                                • 7032

                                #16
                                I agree with the other comments. I would also say that just because your untreated room should be bright, that does not mean that vocals will sound "sparkly" or whatever. I've found through treating a couple of rooms that the post treatment sound becomes more clear and you can hear the separation in vocals and instruments much better.

                                Do some experimenting and see what you can come up with. Even if you can borrow some room treatments, at least you'll know if it's the room or if the speakers just aren't for you.
                                Danish

                                Comment

                                • george_k
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Jan 2004
                                  • 342

                                  #17
                                  offset the laid back nature of the B&W sound
                                  Laid back? Most people (myself included) describe B&W's as forward, hopefully they sound better in your basement :-)

                                  Comment

                                  • Hoopofficial
                                    Member
                                    • Dec 2004
                                    • 44

                                    #18
                                    I know what everyone else says that is what concerns me. No luck moving down tonight. Got home late and don't want to deal with it.

                                    Comment

                                    • bigburner
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • May 2005
                                      • 2649

                                      #19
                                      Is there any possibility that an electronic component in the 803N has aged / failed and needs replacing?

                                      Perhaps a knowledgeable member could answer?

                                      Nigel.

                                      Comment

                                      • BassThatHz
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Jul 2006
                                        • 153

                                        #20
                                        Here's my N803's (~9yrs old), 5.5ft from front wall, 2ft from side wall, 9ft apart, 9ft away. Rotel on the mids and tweeters.
                                        Untreated (dry-wall, big windows, cement with carpet)
                                        Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                                        I'm gonna take a guess and say this was at ~110db-ish?
                                        My mic is nothing fancy at all...

                                        Anyway, unless you make a recording, we can only stab around in the dark as to the cause of the problem.

                                        Comment

                                        • Hoopofficial
                                          Member
                                          • Dec 2004
                                          • 44

                                          #21
                                          Very impressive. I love the tune too.

                                          Comment

                                          • emig5m
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Aug 2008
                                            • 646

                                            #22
                                            I tried recording mine with a camcorder but it seems that something electrical/mechanical inside the camcorder is interfering with the sound which seems like the zoom since it gets louder as I zoom in and quieter as I zoom out. And the built in mic distorts easily, I can only record at lower volumes. I wonder if BassThatHz uses a separate mic? I suppose anything would be better than a camcorders built in mic, heh.

                                            I think I can give BassThatHz some sound quality competition if I can find a way to record without the noise my camcorder injects into the sound and be able to record at something louder than talking volume without distorting the crappy built in mic, lol. I think I have someone who can compete with Sarah Brightman's vocals.... Hayley Westenra. :

                                            Comment

                                            • emig5m
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Aug 2008
                                              • 646

                                              #23
                                              Ok, here's a vid. You can hear the mechanical noise of the camcorder in the beginning I was talking about before the song starts playing although it looks like it stopped getting louder when zooming this time around. I also notice the MIC is just starting to break up and I'm not even close to playing at the volume BassThatHz is playing. It's really not loud at all. I need to get a separate MIC other than this ten year old Panasonic camcorder, heh.

                                              Anyway, just for fun....

                                              B&W 804S / Hayley Westenra / Yamaha RX-663 / Emotiva XPA-5Most people have hi definition video, but no many have hi definition sound. These are my first high...


                                              I'll upload the song BassThatHz posted later - I think my Yamaha is a bit brighter sounding than his Rotel gear. Maybe that's what Hoopofficial needs, something on the brighter electronics side? Because IMO B&W will reflect everything of the sound up the chain to the source. If the source is flat, the speakers will sound flat... if the source is neutral, the speakers will sound neutral... if bright... well the speakers will sound bright, heh.

                                              Comment

                                              • BassThatHz
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Jul 2006
                                                • 153

                                                #24
                                                That's the first time I've heard a Emotiva amp in action.

                                                I'm playing the same song in this one too (Hayley Westenra - Let Me Lie)
                                                Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


                                                Oh no... we just started a YouTube sound quality face-off. LOL :-)

                                                BTW I can actually hear the background noise on the mic Hayley Westenra is using (its actually more than I thought it would be).

                                                From past experience with Yamaha, it makes a brighter sound.
                                                Anything other than neutral, is a bad thing, IMO.

                                                So Hoopofficial, did you find if something is wrong with your setup or ?

                                                Comment

                                                • emig5m
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Aug 2008
                                                  • 646

                                                  #25
                                                  It just goes to show that you can get any type of sound you want from these speakers with the equipment driving it. I'll admit, I've always liked a little extra sugar up top probably why I like this Yamaha so much.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Hammie
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Oct 2005
                                                    • 304

                                                    #26
                                                    Guys,

                                                    Now I feel that I need to get in the game, although I have the same setup as emig5m, except I use a Denon versus the Yamaha.

                                                    It's a joyous event to watch YouTube through my B&W's. Apple TV is awesome for this.
                                                    Panasonic TC-P65VT30
                                                    Onkyo Pro PR-SC5508 | M2Tech Young DAC | Emotiva XPA-1 (x3), XPA-2
                                                    Oppo BDP-93 | DirecTV HR23-700 HD-DVR | Pioneer PL-670 Turntable
                                                    Sony Playstation 3 | Nintendo Wii | Apple TV 2, Mac Mini (iTunes Server), iPad
                                                    B&W 804S, HTM3S, CWM DS8 | SVS PB12-NSD | Denon AH-D2000 Headphones
                                                    Tripp Lite HT1210ISOCTR Power Conditioner, SMART1000LCD UPS System
                                                    My Bowers & Wilkins 800 Series Setup
                                                    Next Upgrade: Cables

                                                    Comment

                                                    • boarder1995
                                                      Member
                                                      • Sep 2009
                                                      • 68

                                                      #27
                                                      We're not seriously comparing sound of speakers recorded through various mics on camcorders, posted on youtube and then played through different systems, are we? Hope this is all tongue-and-cheek talk.

                                                      The videos of the setups are cool though! Makes me want to get the 800 line versus the CM line that I thought I had just convinced myself of this weekend. Grrr.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Hammie
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Oct 2005
                                                        • 304

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by boarder1995
                                                        We're not seriously comparing sound of speakers recorded through various mics on camcorders, posted on youtube and then played through different systems, are we? Hope this is all tongue-and-cheek talk.

                                                        The videos of the setups are cool though! Makes me want to get the 800 line versus the CM line that I thought I had just convinced myself of this weekend. Grrr.
                                                        Yes! At least I was joking. The quality and compression alone of YouTube skews the actual representation of the presentation heard by the auditioner.

                                                        I do agree that seeing videos of other members setup are really cool (although I do enjoy the pics). Maybe we should start a thread of HTGuide Users Setup videos or something.

                                                        I wonder if I can upload one from my iPhone. It's the only device besides my sons camera that can take video.
                                                        Panasonic TC-P65VT30
                                                        Onkyo Pro PR-SC5508 | M2Tech Young DAC | Emotiva XPA-1 (x3), XPA-2
                                                        Oppo BDP-93 | DirecTV HR23-700 HD-DVR | Pioneer PL-670 Turntable
                                                        Sony Playstation 3 | Nintendo Wii | Apple TV 2, Mac Mini (iTunes Server), iPad
                                                        B&W 804S, HTM3S, CWM DS8 | SVS PB12-NSD | Denon AH-D2000 Headphones
                                                        Tripp Lite HT1210ISOCTR Power Conditioner, SMART1000LCD UPS System
                                                        My Bowers & Wilkins 800 Series Setup
                                                        Next Upgrade: Cables

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Hoopofficial
                                                          Member
                                                          • Dec 2004
                                                          • 44

                                                          #29
                                                          Bringing this thread to closure. I swapped out amp and loved the 803n with my B&K 200.7 regardless of location. When I reconnected the Rotel RMB 1095 it sounded fantastic too so I must have mucked something up in the wiring. I rewired the entire system from scratch when I replaced the Rotel amp with the B&K I'm really not sure what the hell went wrong because I wired more than a few of these systems together over the years. Now I'm just stuck with a nasty ground loop that I going to fix this weekend by connecting the Cable ground and Electric grounds. Interesting enough, the ground loop is not as evident with the B&K. But that is a discussion for the Rotel thread. :T

                                                          IMHO, the YouTube video's were great. I enjoyed them and it set me on a mission to figure out what the hell was going on with my system. After 8 hours or so, problem solved. Now I hear the detail and "forwardness" that everyone else mentions about B&W but they are still no where near as forward as the Monitor Audio GR60's that I have. That is a good thing in my listening area.

                                                          Love the speakers and they are a keepers....well at least for now.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • emig5m
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Aug 2008
                                                            • 646

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by boarder1995
                                                            We're not seriously comparing sound of speakers recorded through various mics on camcorders, posted on youtube and then played through different systems, are we? Hope this is all tongue-and-cheek talk.
                                                            Yea, it's just for fun, heh. I've always admired BassThatHz's enthusiasm with posting vids of his system and the wide range of music genres he listens to. I think he has more fun with his system than 75% of all of us on here put together, heh. I actually came across some songs I really like from watching his vids that I otherwise probably would of never heard before. The worst part with my vid is the MIC in my camcorder was obviously starting to compress and break up (most notable 2:00+ in). I'd like to try recording with something higher quality than a camcorder MIC that doesn't break up with anything louder than normal conversation volume, heh. One of my co-workers has a heavy metal band, I'll see if he has a MIC I could use....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • BassThatHz
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Jul 2006
                                                              • 153

                                                              #31
                                                              Hoopofficial must have had the wire polarity wrong on the highs, that assuming he is bi-wiring... that's all I can think of that would cause that effect. This is my 9th amp configuration and I've never encountered a ground-looping... yet

                                                              Yeah YouTube can skew the results like crazy, sometimes its like dumping grass clippings into your bed sheets.

                                                              Over the last 8 years I've logged roughly 20,000 hours of listening; a large amount is repeat but still... well atleast I can't say it doesn't get used often enough.

                                                              So we went from "dissapointed in" to "keepers with love"... problem solved I'd say!

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Hoopofficial
                                                                Member
                                                                • Dec 2004
                                                                • 44

                                                                #32
                                                                BassThatHZ, I think you are correct because when I reconnected the Rotel Amp, I noticed that the Rotel Amp switched the "+ and -" terminals depending on what speaker you are connecting. :M How F'd up is that. That is the one and only Amp I've ever owned that did that. I don't recall paying much attention to that originally. When I bought the amp on Audiogon, it did not come with a manual. Of course I said, who the hell needs a manual for an amp. I guess I was mistaken. First time ever. :W

                                                                Comment

                                                                • ac81017
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Aug 2006
                                                                  • 175

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Hoopofficial
                                                                  Just purchased a used pair of Nautilus 803. Initial evaluation is that they sound incredibly flat to me. Vocals sound chesty and the sound lacks "air". Instrumentals sound wonderful but vocals are "thick". Any thoughts? Room is 13 x 30. 13 foot ceilings. Speaker placement is roughly 10 inches off rear walls with ample room on each side. Speakers are roughly 7 feet apart. Rotel 200w amp and B&K pre-amp. Overall, I'm somewhat dissapointed in these. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.




                                                                  Maybe they haven´t been played in?? They need at least 80 hours?? I once bought a pair of B&W 703 that were 4 years old and they sound bad but after many hours the sound started to shape up! I guess the former owner hadn´t really played them that much!!
                                                                  :T

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • aarsoe
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • May 2004
                                                                    • 795

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Hoopofficial

                                                                    There is one other possibility. Namely correct phasing of the power. Don't know where you are based, but if you live in a place where you can turn the AC plugs either way then you can really make a bit difference.
                                                                    Even if you are not in a place where you can turn the plugs both ways (like Schuko) I have seen enough power cables that would not end up correctly at the female plug. That is especially true if you happen to use any old computer cable that you had laying around.

                                                                    Anyway - glad you got it fixed..

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • wgriel
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • May 2006
                                                                      • 241

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Hoopofficial
                                                                      BassThatHZ, I think you are correct because when I reconnected the Rotel Amp, I noticed that the Rotel Amp switched the "+ and -" terminals depending on what speaker you are connecting. :M How F'd up is that. That is the one and only Amp I've ever owned that did that.
                                                                      I'm embarassed to admit that I've done exactly that with a Rotel amp too ops:

                                                                      It was just on my kitchen speakers (B&W DM600 S3) but I couldn't figure out why they seemed to have no bass. When I finally checked everything out I couldn't believe that I had done that!

                                                                      Comment

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