Upgrading from 640's

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  • timjclark
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2009
    • 104

    Upgrading from 640's

    I want to upgrade my speakers and the wife is on-board with it, yeah! I'm not sure which way to go:
    801 Series II or III, Nautilus 802, 803, 804, 804S

    My budget is $4000. My power amp is a Proceed AMP2, that's 150 watts per channel. I have had my 640's since I bought them new in 1991 and have very much enjoyed them. When I bought them, I sure wanted 800 series speakers, but it was not meant to be.

    I have been watching many 801's going for right around $2000 which is very tempting, but we have two reservations: 1) they would be 15-20 years old. How long would my investment in that vintage of speaker last me? What I am concerned about is will the drivers wear out? 2) The look of them. I'm OK with them as I'm used to them. My wife thinks they are ugly. Our house is a 3 bedroom home with ~2000 sq ft of space. As such, we have a living room that opens into a dining room and kitchen as our main living space. Her comment last night really hit home - "for a living room, they are too big and industrial looking; if we had a dedicated family/av room, I'd be much better with them." I see her point totally and agree. We have wood floors (if that makes any difference...). Although my wife does not like the look of the 801's, she wants me to be happy and excited about my purchase and if that means 801's, she's OK with it.

    It looks like N802's could almost be had in my budget. I have never listened to them. I'm sure they are awesome. I've heard 804S briefly, and they did not blow me away. I suspect that is a good thing especially considering the large theater room they were in. They didn't strike me as all that much of a departure from my 640's, but then the material probably did not illustrate the difference in the imaging which I know is there.

    I know the 804S will not compare with the 801/802 on bass. To be honest, I'm pretty darn happy with the bass in the 640's. I do not run a sub and although my listening is 50/50 between 2 channel and home theater, I don't need to the room to shake. Of course I'd like lower frequency response.

    I'm torn between a 20 year old amazing speaker on one extreme and a current design speaker (804S) which could be better in some respects because of newer design and technology.

    What I am looking for is your input as to your experiences with these models. Thank you.
    -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
    -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
    -Rotel: RSP-1069
    -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

    Office system:
    -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
    -B&W LM-1, AS-1
  • htsteve
    Super Senior Member
    • Sep 2004
    • 1216

    #2
    Timjclark,

    Upgrading spekaers is always a fun time, especially when your wife is on board.

    First off, you have a nice budget. And a nice amp to dirve it.

    Every generation of B&W speaker gets better. I would stick with the Nautilus or 800 lines. They offer excellent performance and quality engineering. Especially as your wife is not enamored with the 801 Series II-III, and they ARE old, I would start with the newer lines.

    For you budget, you can get a new pair of 804S's or a pair of N803's. You might be able to find a pair of N802's in that range. That is easily the best choice. The 802 is a special speaker that does everything very well. In any of these cases, it will be a very nice upgrade for you. The look an finish on these lines is very nice and should fit nicely into a living area (been there, done that).

    One advantage of the newer lines is the nautilus tweeter. It is quite an improvement when compared to older models. Another is the FST midrange. It is a superb midrange driver, one that allows for a substantial soundstage and clarity.

    As you have hardwood floors, do you have a rug in front of the speakers? This will help to tame the brightness and reflections off the floor.

    Your ears will be the best guide. Try to listen to these as best you can.


    Bottom line for me: Newer speakers will sound and look very nice in your situation.


    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by htsteve; 18 December 2009, 07:52 Friday.

    Comment

    • Freddie40
      Senior Member
      • Jun 2009
      • 152

      #3
      As for the Matrix 801's, great speakers. I would rather have these vs the other choices esp the 804S, but listen to them and see what you like the best. You can still buy brand new tweeters, midranges and midrange covers for the Matrix 801. As for the woofers they can be rebuilt. I have Matrix 802 Series 2 and I would only replace them with 802Ds or higher.
      Crystal Clear Music Tweaked Mac Mini / Yosemite -> JRiver 20 -> Ayre QB9DSD -> Bryston BP26DA -> Bryston 4BSST2 -> B&W 802Di | Transparent Reference XLRs, Transparent Super Speaker Cable, Maple Shade USB cable, Crystal Clear Music Power Cords

      Comment

      • timjclark
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2009
        • 104

        #4
        So far the score is one for Matrix 801's and one for N802/N803/804S. Interesting. Freddie emailed me with the cost to replace the drivers and if I did buy used 801's, the price for the drivers is not prohibitive.

        Steve - I do not have any area rugs in the living room yet, but that is coming soon this winter. I'm quite surprised that the 640's are not significantly brighter with the hard wood VS the carpet.

        There is one other factor that I forgot to mention - cats. We have two cats who jump on everything. Their front paws are without claws, so damage is pretty much non-existent. My concern is the top of the bass cabinet on the 801/802 - that is a cloth covering to absorb reflections, right? I suspect they would be a mess with cat hair and I would certainly hope the cats don't find it fun to chew on...

        Freddie - that is really something that the only compelling speaker in the current lineup is the 802D to make you consider an upgrade. Have you spent any time with N802s? How do those compare with your 802S2's?

        Thank you both for the feedback!
        Tim
        -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
        -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
        -Rotel: RSP-1069
        -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

        Office system:
        -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
        -B&W LM-1, AS-1

        Comment

        • Freddie40
          Senior Member
          • Jun 2009
          • 152

          #5
          I have not listened to the N802s. As for the cats, I have 3 of them, not a big deal. I do not use the grill for the woofers though, caught a cat using them for a scratching post I have read reviews on the N802s vs the Matrix802s. They were mixed at best.

          As for the current line of B&W. I listened to the 803S, 803D and 802D. I really love the sound of the 802D, hated the sound of the 803S and thought the 803D was roughly the same as the Matrix 802 Series 2 (the 803D had better highs, but I thought they had weaker lows and mids). However, I am very much attached to the sound of my 802s and it is very hard to make a comparison with speakers in your home and speakers at the showroom (3 different rooms, 3 different setups). However, the 803Ds were attached to a very nice classe system and I just was not blown away with them compared to what I have.

          Dave
          Crystal Clear Music Tweaked Mac Mini / Yosemite -> JRiver 20 -> Ayre QB9DSD -> Bryston BP26DA -> Bryston 4BSST2 -> B&W 802Di | Transparent Reference XLRs, Transparent Super Speaker Cable, Maple Shade USB cable, Crystal Clear Music Power Cords

          Comment

          • timjclark
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2009
            • 104

            #6
            Cats using speakers as a scratching post takes me back to when I was a kid and an adopted cat destroyed the side of my dads home made speaker. Maybe that is why my dad was so anti-pet.

            Well, there are a pair of 801 S2's in my area for sale that I'm going to check out this weekend. They are walnut colored and we have cherry furniture and floors. I'm hoping that they would look ok, but I'm sceptical...

            The more reading that I've been doing, the more varied opinions I'm finding. Time to pick out a handful of tracks and start listening...
            -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
            -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
            -Rotel: RSP-1069
            -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

            Office system:
            -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
            -B&W LM-1, AS-1

            Comment

            • Freddie40
              Senior Member
              • Jun 2009
              • 152

              #7
              You will have the same problem I have. After 19 years you are used to a very certain type of sound. The 801s will fit in very well with what you are used to listening to. Good luck this weekend.

              Walnut That's what I have
              Crystal Clear Music Tweaked Mac Mini / Yosemite -> JRiver 20 -> Ayre QB9DSD -> Bryston BP26DA -> Bryston 4BSST2 -> B&W 802Di | Transparent Reference XLRs, Transparent Super Speaker Cable, Maple Shade USB cable, Crystal Clear Music Power Cords

              Comment

              • Freddie40
                Senior Member
                • Jun 2009
                • 152

                #8
                So you know the midranges for the 801/802 cost me 164.35/ea. The Bass alignment filter was 90.50. Midrange grills were 46.88/ea. Tweeters were about 270/ea (they were 281.50 including shipping). The tweeters and midranges fit 801/802 Series 2 & 3.
                Crystal Clear Music Tweaked Mac Mini / Yosemite -> JRiver 20 -> Ayre QB9DSD -> Bryston BP26DA -> Bryston 4BSST2 -> B&W 802Di | Transparent Reference XLRs, Transparent Super Speaker Cable, Maple Shade USB cable, Crystal Clear Music Power Cords

                Comment

                • timjclark
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2009
                  • 104

                  #9
                  Thanks for the additional info Steve. Did you install the drivers yourself or have them done somewhere? If you did them yourself, was it difficult or risky?

                  Ah you have the Walnut color as well. You are certainly doing a good sell job for the 801 S2's. And they already come with the bass alignment filter, yeah!
                  -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                  -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                  -Rotel: RSP-1069
                  -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                  Office system:
                  -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                  -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                  Comment

                  • Freddie40
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2009
                    • 152

                    #10
                    I installed the drivers myself, very easy.

                    Dave
                    Crystal Clear Music Tweaked Mac Mini / Yosemite -> JRiver 20 -> Ayre QB9DSD -> Bryston BP26DA -> Bryston 4BSST2 -> B&W 802Di | Transparent Reference XLRs, Transparent Super Speaker Cable, Maple Shade USB cable, Crystal Clear Music Power Cords

                    Comment

                    • Antus
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2008
                      • 141

                      #11
                      the current lineup of 800 series are a good value of money in my opinion. The drivers are made out of metal or synthetic meterial which will last a long time. (Kevler midrange and Rocehell woofer) on the Matrix generation, the woofer were made out of paper fiber and plastic. after many years of usage, paper parts tend to give up first. (i have a pair of Matrix 801 S2 walnut, still in service)

                      150W per channel are not quite enough for Matrix 801, especially if you wnat to fill a large space. i'd say 300W would be more suitable for 801. 804S will do just fine with 150W.

                      Comment

                      • Freddie40
                        Senior Member
                        • Jun 2009
                        • 152

                        #12
                        The 801s will run just fine on 150w, 300 would be nice. Start of with a better pair of speakers (801s), worry about the power later.

                        Dave

                        BTW: Matrix 801s have a Kevlar midrange. I still have the original woofers in my 802s (have had 2 reconed). They will last a long time.
                        Crystal Clear Music Tweaked Mac Mini / Yosemite -> JRiver 20 -> Ayre QB9DSD -> Bryston BP26DA -> Bryston 4BSST2 -> B&W 802Di | Transparent Reference XLRs, Transparent Super Speaker Cable, Maple Shade USB cable, Crystal Clear Music Power Cords

                        Comment

                        • timjclark
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 104

                          #13
                          Hey Dave - Sorry for calling you Steve earlier... ops:

                          I decided not to go give a listen to the 801's today. The Mrs really does not like the way 801's look. I'm OK with that. If we had separate living room and listening room, it would be a different story.

                          I called a local B&W dealer to find out about any used 800 trade-ins, but they do not have any. A conversation in-sued about what I was looking for. I mentioned what I have written above and then I said how I should have jumped at their inventory reduction sale a few months back where they were clearing out all display models for 20% off. He said why don't I come in for a listen that he can still do that for any stock. I'll be spending some time over there next week listening to 804S and 803S's. For 20% off, I think the 803S are in reach.

                          What is a typical discount that can be had on B&W's? I got 17% off when I bought the DM-640's in 1990.
                          -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                          -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                          -Rotel: RSP-1069
                          -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                          Office system:
                          -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                          -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                          Comment

                          • htsteve
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Sep 2004
                            • 1216

                            #14
                            timjclark,

                            Discounts on B&W typicall are 5-10%, sometimes 15% depending on dealer and size of order. However, the past year, with the economy so bad, many dealers are much more aggressive in their pricing. 20% is not real unusual right now.

                            And yes, the 803S's are in range.


                            Hope this helps.

                            Comment

                            • timjclark
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 104

                              #15
                              Timing is everything! I got a call last Wed from my local dealer letting me know that B&W has informed them about the pricing for the new 800 series and that if I'm interested in the current vintage that now is the time to come in. I went in today to listen to the 804S vs 803S. There was not a bad choice to be made! Between last Wed and today, my dealer informed me that the 804's are sold out from the dealer channel and there are a handful of 803S's to be had.

                              I decided to purchase the floor model of the 803S's as the deal was very very good. My light cherry 803S will be delivered on Tuesday morning. How in the heck am I going to get myself to go to work after they arrive???

                              The shock factor is fading and I'm getting very excited! For fun over the holidays the 640's will be pressed into service as my rear speakers. That is going to fun! WAHOO!!!
                              -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                              -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                              -Rotel: RSP-1069
                              -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                              Office system:
                              -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                              -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                              Comment

                              • Antus
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2008
                                • 141

                                #16
                                conglauation on ur new purchase. i was going to tell u NOT buying 15 years old 801, and i think u clearly made a right choice.

                                We had a pair of M801 S2 and it was't sound as good as it should. We were considering to buy new driver and perhaps rebuild the crossover to give it a new life. The woodwork, however, were in perfect condition. After went to the dealer and listened several of the new model. we decided to trade-in our M801 instead of trying to make it work.

                                We had a 802D at pretty good price. dealer knock off another $2000 for our old M801. It has been 3 weeks now. with each day goes by, we think we made the right choice.

                                Comment

                                • htsteve
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Sep 2004
                                  • 1216

                                  #17
                                  timjclark,

                                  Excellent! Yes, timing can be everything. That's how I got my 802D's and HTM2D a couple of years ago. A price increase was happening and my dealer made me a deal. It's worked out very nicely.


                                  Enjoy!

                                  Comment

                                  • dan87951
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2005
                                    • 379

                                    #18
                                    The 803's are very nice speakers. One of my favorties out of the 800 series line up. I miss mine a lot and will some day have another set! I always thought they were the best bang for the buck in that series.
                                    dan87951
                                    audio guru

                                    Comment

                                    • timjclark
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Apr 2009
                                      • 104

                                      #19
                                      My new 803S's arrived this morning! They are wonderful! Size wise, they fit in quite nicely where the 640's used to be. I'm very pleased with the light cherry color and they look just fine on top of the dark cherry floors.

                                      Initial impressions: (I bought the dealer demos which are fully broken in)
                                      - They sound cleaner and more detailed than the 640.
                                      - The bass is fuller, tighter and goes lower. It is interesting that at first the bass was not blowing me away, but the more that I think about it, it is much better bass as opposed to more bass. Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon was night and day difference. The heartbeat at the beginning was stronger and more authoritative. Did the guy have bypass surgery since I last listened to this?
                                      - I am hearing new details in the music from random places in the house, like from the kitchen. In fact, I heard new details within 30 seconds!
                                      - Vocals sound live. Listening to Dan Wilson Live at Pantages sounds like I am there on stage. More live then with 640's.
                                      - The sound stage is wider than ever before and had the cats freaking out. Maybe the volume had something to do with that.
                                      - And with another upgrade comes the fact that excellent recordings are sounding better and average to poor recordings are sounding worse.

                                      Tonights listening will include some Tuvan throat signing on the Bela Fleck Christmas CD - that ought to sound mighty fine!

                                      For the rest of the holiday season, I'm going to see how the 640's will work as the rear channel speakers. It is more an issue of space in the living room to make it work.

                                      And now the center channel ponderings begin. The HTM3S will not fit so I'm toying with a HTM4S or a Nautilus HTM2. Thoughts anyone? I think the LCR3 will need to go...

                                      So no diamond tweeters for this guy. Something tells me that after letting me buy new speakers, my wife deserves some diamonds under the tree and not a subscription to the Jelly of the Month Club. Well, maybe both!

                                      NOW I can get the Christmas cards done since I'll be on the couch anyway...
                                      Last edited by timjclark; 15 December 2009, 16:57 Tuesday. Reason: add note about having bought demos
                                      -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                                      -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                                      -Rotel: RSP-1069
                                      -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                                      Office system:
                                      -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                                      -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                                      Comment

                                      • timjclark
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Apr 2009
                                        • 104

                                        #20
                                        Here is a quick update! I am really really really happy with the 803S's!

                                        The topic of center channel was wearing on my mind with the 800 model change over.
                                        I was watching an eBay auction on an HTM2 in the cherry color, but I didn't jump on it. There was still availability of a matching and new HTM4S for my 803S's and I decided to go that route. I got a great deal on it and this way it will match my 803's.

                                        It took some finagling to make this happen as my current TV stand would not accommodate the height of the HTM4 (or 2 for that matter) but I came up with a solution of a used Sanus rack with 12" shelf pillars. I also had to have the talk with the Mrs. about being done upgrading for a while and selling off what I don't need.

                                        That means after 19 years with the DM-640's, I'll be saying goodbye to them. Our living room will not allow for them to be the rear channel speakers. To be honest, I'd rather have a damn nice center channel then to hold on to the 640's.

                                        Surely bi-wiring the HTM4S does not really count as an upgrade, right? :twisted:
                                        -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                                        -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                                        -Rotel: RSP-1069
                                        -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                                        Office system:
                                        -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                                        -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                                        Comment

                                        • 97disco
                                          Member
                                          • Dec 2008
                                          • 93

                                          #21
                                          Awesome!

                                          Post some pics when you get a chance.
                                          B&W 704's
                                          B&W HTM7
                                          B&W DS7's (rears)
                                          B&W 850 Subwoofer
                                          Rotel RSP 1066
                                          Rotel RMB 1075
                                          Rotel RDV-1060
                                          B&W Zepplin

                                          Comment

                                          • DM3000 Owner
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Jun 2006
                                            • 475

                                            #22
                                            Great purchase. It is interesting, I have been watching the N805's actually go up in value over the last few years while the N802 have came down by about $1000 and the N801's have actually went up.

                                            The 803S's should retain their value as teh new ones will be way more expensive. Enjoy, they are also very stylish and shoudl fit in and make your wife happy.

                                            As for the posts to avoid the M801's, that is just plain wrong. I have a friend who has a pair and they sounded horrible when he got them. He changed preamps (his was too bright) and retubed his 300 wpc VTL monos and they sound just plain amazing now.

                                            I was driving back from his place after listening and my other friend, who has Wilson MAXX 2's and all VTL gear, and I who had B&W Signature 800's at the time, both could not stop talking about how good the M801's sounded after dialing them in. It was really impressive and for a fraction of the cost of either of our speakers. Don't discount these, they are very good.

                                            The price of a Matrix tweeter above seemed high. Must have been the whole assembly. I replaced a tweeter diaphragm in a Matrix 801 for $40, however, you need to be willing to take it apart, desolder the old one and solder in the new one.

                                            Comment

                                            • timjclark
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Apr 2009
                                              • 104

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by 97disco
                                              Awesome!

                                              Post some pics when you get a chance.
                                              Will do! The 803S's are just lovely!
                                              -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                                              -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                                              -Rotel: RSP-1069
                                              -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                                              Office system:
                                              -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                                              -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                                              Comment

                                              • timjclark
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Apr 2009
                                                • 104

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by DM3000 Owner
                                                Great purchase. It is interesting, I have been watching the N805's actually go up in value over the last few years while the N802 have came down by about $1000 and the N801's have actually went up.

                                                The 803S's should retain their value as teh new ones will be way more expensive. Enjoy, they are also very stylish and shoudl fit in and make your wife happy.

                                                As for the posts to avoid the M801's, that is just plain wrong. I have a friend who has a pair and they sounded horrible when he got them. He changed preamps (his was too bright) and retubed his 300 wpc VTL monos and they sound just plain amazing now.

                                                I was driving back from his place after listening and my other friend, who has Wilson MAXX 2's and all VTL gear, and I who had B&W Signature 800's at the time, both could not stop talking about how good the M801's sounded after dialing them in. It was really impressive and for a fraction of the cost of either of our speakers. Don't discount these, they are very good.

                                                The price of a Matrix tweeter above seemed high. Must have been the whole assembly. I replaced a tweeter diaphragm in a Matrix 801 for $40, however, you need to be willing to take it apart, desolder the old one and solder in the new one.
                                                I think the Mrs. is most happy to hear the speakers instead of me talking about wanting them...

                                                801's would have been awesome too, but just too big for our living room. If I had a dedicated sound room that would be a different story. But then again...a friend of mine in the twin cities has 801's in his basement listening room and he was telling me last month that it's a bummer that the big stereo is not in their everyday space on the main floor. They are up there more often and as a result they listen to music or do ht on something other than the wonderful 801's and his excellent system.

                                                After having that conversation, I stopped wishing for a bigger house with a dedicated sound room as it would probably not get used as much as our setup gets used now. Less is more in this case... :P
                                                -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                                                -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                                                -Rotel: RSP-1069
                                                -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                                                Office system:
                                                -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                                                -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                                                Comment

                                                • DM3000 Owner
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Jun 2006
                                                  • 475

                                                  #25
                                                  I don't know if the 803S's are less. I was just saying that some postings claimed that you should never look at an old speaker, which is just untrue.

                                                  Great setup you have. enjoy.

                                                  Comment

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