Stereo imaging a virtue of placement not speaker

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • ak77
    Member
    • Jun 2008
    • 30

    Stereo imaging a virtue of placement not speaker

    Ahem....I am going to potentially ask a very controversial question...please excuse my ignorance gents.

    I have two sets of good quality Hifi systems (so I believe)
    1. B&W803S <-- Classe CAP-2100 <-- Classe CDP-102
    2. B&W685 <-- Rotel RA-05 <-- Denon 3910

    I would like to believe that both these pair of speakers are renowned for their performance and many (if not all) features you would associate with a high end speakers.

    In my personal experience, poorly placed speakers, no matter how good quality they are, will neither give you right stereo imaging nor enough depth etc. On the other hand if the speakers are correclty placed i.e. not too close to the rear or side walls (atleast 0.5m away), are apart enough (aleast 1.5 m), and are at equidistance from the listener (to form the perfect triangle) ....they would produce excellent sound stage and would be almost invisible (sonically ofcourse)

    So how much is stereo imaging really a virtue of the speaker and not just placement of the speakers??

    Andy
    System 1: B&W: 803S; Classe CAP-2100, CDP-102, Chord: Anthem 2 interconnect, Epic super twin cables

    System 2: B&W: 685, Rotel: RA-05; Denon 3910; Denon DAB 1800 tuner; Merlin Choppin & Atlas Equator MKII interconnects.
  • wettou
    Ultra Senior Member
    • May 2006
    • 3389

    #2
    Originally posted by ak77
    Ahem....I am going to potentially ask a very controversial question...please excuse my ignorance gents.

    I have two sets of good quality Hifi systems (so I believe)
    1. B&W803S <-- Classe CAP-2100 <-- Classe CDP-102
    2. B&W685 <-- Rotel RA-05 <-- Denon 3910

    I would like to believe that both these pair of speakers are renowned for their performance and many (if not all) features you would associate with a high end speakers.
    Both are nice but I would call them high-end but rather Mid-Fi a

    Originally posted by ak77
    In my personal experience, poorly placed speakers, no matter how good quality they are, will neither give you right stereo imaging nor enough depth etc.
    Yes I could not agree more the right speaker placement is essential for good imaging

    Originally posted by ak77
    On the other hand if the speakers are correclty placed i.e. not too close to the rear or side walls (atleast 0.5m away), are apart enough (aleast 1.5 m), and are at equidistance from the listener (to form the perfect triangle) ....they would produce excellent sound stage and would be almost invisible (sonically of course)

    Yes here are some great articles

    http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/how...eakerplacement



    Originally posted by ak77
    So how much is stereo imaging really a virtue of the speaker and not just placement of the speakers?? Andy
    As described in all these articles; First you need

    1. Good recording
    2. Good speakers
    3. The right room and
    4. finally speaker placement


    Of course one should not forget good amps, pre-amp and source

    Of course good hearing helps as well
    Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

    Comment

    • mjb
      Super Senior Member
      • Mar 2005
      • 1483

      #3
      Assuming that we're sitting at equidistance to the speakers, which are at equidistance with each other, the reliability of the stereo image will have everything to do with the quality of the source mix and the honesty of the reproduction.
      - Mike

      Main System:
      B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
      Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

      Comment

      • KRC
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2004
        • 166

        #4
        Long arguements can be made over equipment quality, types of equipment, rooms and music being played. Next you can get into a very lengthy discussion where mid fi stops and hi end takes over. Point can be made over sports cars, they are all fast and some incredibly fast and others stupid fast with matching price. Bottom line is what can the user actually afford and where do they want to be sound wise to that price point. I have 703's matched to Anthem processor and amp with high end cables (I know, another discussion) and fairly decent sources. I did an experiment on the weekend where I moved my speakers out from the wall more, apart more and toed in slightly more than they were. Without changing anything in the room and playing the same music, I heard an incredible change (for the good) in soundstage, image and bass speed. from the original. My point, even making subtle changes to speaker placement can render changes to the sound quality. It is also true that if you make to drastic of placement changes, could through the whole image out.

        Kevin

        Comment

        • wettou
          Ultra Senior Member
          • May 2006
          • 3389

          #5
          Originally posted by KRC
          I did an experiment on the weekend where I moved my speakers out from the wall more, apart more and toed in slightly more than they were. Without changing anything in the room and playing the same music, I heard an incredible change (for the good) in soundstage, image and bass speed. from the original.

          My point, even making subtle changes to speaker placement can render changes to the sound quality. It is also true that if you make to drastic of placement changes, could through the whole image out.Kevin
          Agreed :T
          Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

          Comment

          • Horacio
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2005
            • 142

            #6
            I agree with the posts above, and would also like to add room treatment as a key ingredient. Basically bass traps and absorption at all first reflection points whose path exceeds the direct path in more than 1.7 meters.

            Comment

            • bigburner
              Super Senior Member
              • May 2005
              • 2649

              #7
              Andy, it's 99% placement. The best stereo imaging in my house comes from a $150 system in my bedroom. The speakers are 2 feet apart at head height on the dresser. When I stand in front of the mirror I'm dead centre in the sweet spot with each speaker 2 feet from my head. If I close my eyes I can visualise every musician precisely on stage due to the excellent imaging. I don't experience this degree of accuracy on any other system in my house or my friends' houses regardless of price.

              Nigel.

              Comment

              • ak77
                Member
                • Jun 2008
                • 30

                #8
                Cheers guys

                I thought my 803s for fairly high end if not totally high end anyway I will settle with mid-end for now.

                All the points mentioned above regarding room, equipment, placement etc are very valid and thats exactly what I am coming to. If you have all the factors right...even a £100 Q-acoustics speaker should be able to give good imaging and make them virtually invisible.

                I personally think its a myth that speaker companies, especially the high end and expensive speaker companies sell about their speakers. Its not the speaker producing the imaging. its the placement of spekaers and your distance (following the equidistant rule between the speakers and from the speakers) which actually produces the effect of imaging. Imaging at the end of the day is psycoacoustics which is dependent more on large number of environmental factors and very very little on the speaker itself.

                Do you agree?

                Cheers
                Andy
                System 1: B&W: 803S; Classe CAP-2100, CDP-102, Chord: Anthem 2 interconnect, Epic super twin cables

                System 2: B&W: 685, Rotel: RA-05; Denon 3910; Denon DAB 1800 tuner; Merlin Choppin & Atlas Equator MKII interconnects.

                Comment

                • ak77
                  Member
                  • Jun 2008
                  • 30

                  #9
                  Originally posted by bigburner
                  Andy, it's 99% placement. The best stereo imaging in my house comes from a $150 system in my bedroom. The speakers are 2 feet apart at head height on the dresser. When I stand in front of the mirror I'm dead centre in the sweet spot with each speaker 2 feet from my head. If I close my eyes I can visualise every musician precisely on stage due to the excellent imaging. I don't experience this degree of accuracy on any other system in my house or my friends' houses regardless of price.

                  Nigel.

                  I am totally with you Nigel !
                  System 1: B&W: 803S; Classe CAP-2100, CDP-102, Chord: Anthem 2 interconnect, Epic super twin cables

                  System 2: B&W: 685, Rotel: RA-05; Denon 3910; Denon DAB 1800 tuner; Merlin Choppin & Atlas Equator MKII interconnects.

                  Comment

                  • Carl V
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2005
                    • 269

                    #10
                    Originally posted by ak77
                    Cheers guys

                    I thought my 803s for fairly high end if not totally high end anyway I will settle with mid-end for now.

                    All the points mentioned above regarding room, equipment, placement etc are very valid and thats exactly what I am coming to. If you have all the factors right...even a £100 Q-acoustics speaker should be able to give good imaging and make them virtually invisible.

                    I personally think its a myth that speaker companies, especially the high end and expensive speaker companies sell about their speakers. Its not the speaker producing the imaging. its the placement of spekaers and your distance (following the equidistant rule between the speakers and from the speakers) which actually produces the effect of imaging. Imaging at the end of the day is psycoacoustics which is dependent more on large number of environmental factors and very very little on the speaker itself.

                    Do you agree?

                    Cheers
                    Andy


                    yes & no. (politician in training )

                    mid-fi>>>>high end. very subjective but
                    the are are levels of quality. In both terms
                    of fit-n-finish, component quality & execution
                    of desgin (purpose). What you need & want
                    is your decision.

                    Yes. System set-up is the deal breaker for the
                    most part. So, all things being equal (ha!) the
                    better set-up has the greatest potential to sound
                    the best...by what ever terms you deem appropriate.
                    This thread seems to hinge on "stereo effects".

                    SO the inexpensive well placed set-up can image like
                    gangbusters.

                    Being a geek I've heard various speakers placed in the
                    exact same position in a well set-up room; all soundstage,
                    image & sound differently. One such time comes to mind
                    when the various designs were sgl driver, quasi sgl driver
                    (i.e., 3A cappo i) Greem Mountain 1st order, LR2, BW3, LR4
                    & lastly an elliptical design. Ignoring tonality differences they
                    all did a fine job of 'stereo effects' however those designs with
                    well chosen parts, careful attention to phase & off axis power
                    response excelled. All were driven with the same well regarded gear.

                    Comment

                    • emig5m
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2008
                      • 646

                      #11
                      On non-equal grounds (more proper setup vs thrown together), my 683 (actually even my 685) imaged much better than the 803D that have an astronomical price in comparison.

                      All things being equal, same system, same placement, my 804S sounds much more 3D than my 683. There's other areas where the 804S does better, but we're talking about stereo imaging so I'll keep it at that.

                      Comment

                      • alebonau
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Oct 2005
                        • 992

                        #12
                        placement and room will impact on imaging hugely. but the rest of the system - source, preamp and power amp are quite a factor as well in my experience.
                        "Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."

                        Comment

                        • audioqueso
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Nov 2004
                          • 1930

                          #13
                          Originally posted by alebonau
                          placement and room will impact on imaging hugely. but the rest of the system - source, preamp and power amp are quite a factor as well in my experience.
                          Yes, of course. Everything can only be as good as your source. But he's mentioned the details of stereo imaging.
                          B&W 804S/Velodyne SPL-1000R/Anthem MRX720

                          Comment

                          • ray5
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 444

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Horacio
                            I agree with the posts above, and would also like to add room treatment as a key ingredient. Basically bass traps and absorption at all first reflection points whose path exceeds the direct path in more than 1.7 meters.
                            Hi! Is there a good article or source where I can educate myself about these?
                            Ray

                            Comment

                            • wettou
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • May 2006
                              • 3389

                              #15
                              Originally posted by ray5
                              Hi! Is there a good article or source where I can educate myself about these? Ray
                              You might want to read "Sound Reproduction" Toole :T
                              Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                              Comment

                              • Horacio
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2005
                                • 142

                                #16
                                Ray5,

                                There are many, many sources. It actually gets confusing...so don't get frustrated. I know I was, and I'm not an expert by no means, but learning and having fun with DIY projects to try.
                                • Everest Master Handbook of Accustics. Excellent overview.
                                • Audio Asylum / Tweaker's forum (www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks). Some folks, like Jon Risch, really know what they are talking about. Actually, I'm now building bass tube traps per Jon's recipe


                                I think these will get you going. At the end of the day I don't think we need to go nuts with this. Some bass absorption + treating first reflection points + speaker positioning allegedly does wonders.


                                Horacio

                                Comment

                                • ray5
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Dec 2008
                                  • 444

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Horacio
                                  Ray5,

                                  There are many, many sources. It actually gets confusing...so don't get frustrated. I know I was, and I'm not an expert by no means, but learning and having fun with DIY projects to try.
                                  • Everest Master Handbook of Accustics. Excellent overview.
                                  • Audio Asylum / Tweaker's forum (www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks). Some folks, like Jon Risch, really know what they are talking about. Actually, I'm now building bass tube traps per Jon's recipe


                                  I think these will get you going. At the end of the day I don't think we need to go nuts with this. Some bass absorption + treating first reflection points + speaker positioning allegedly does wonders.


                                  Horacio
                                  Thanks a lot.
                                  Ray

                                  Comment

                                  • emig5m
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Aug 2008
                                    • 646

                                    #18
                                    I have my stereo imaging so good that three times today when playing back a stereo signal I had to get up and put my ear next to the center channel because I thought my Pre/Pro was upmixing 2.0 to 5.1... My ears kept drawing attention to the center speaker but it wasn't playing at all when I got up and put my ear next to it, heh. :E

                                    My father hit me up with the same thing when I was demoing my system for him... "is the center playing?" You literally can be 100% fooled on my system that the center speaker is active when it actually isn't at all even when you own the system and listen to it almost every day and can see the front display clearly saying straight/stereo, heh...

                                    Comment

                                    Working...
                                    😀
                                    😂
                                    🥰
                                    😘
                                    🤢
                                    😎
                                    😞
                                    😡
                                    👍
                                    👎
                                    Searching...Please wait.
                                    An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                                    Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                    An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                                    Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                    An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                                    There are no results that meet this criteria.
                                    Search Result for "|||"