RD50 with line of 7" Daytons

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  • PMazz
    Senior Member
    • May 2001
    • 861

    RD50 with line of 7" Daytons

    I ordered 12 of the Dayton 7" aluminum cone woofs for my RD50s. I'll try them dipole and sealed and see how they do. I just can't seem to get the single CSX10 "bass box" to integrate well with the ribbons.

    Any thoughts on how the ribbons would react next to a sealed enclosure with the 6 7" drivers. And would you think ribbons on the inside and woofs on the outside?

    Pete
    Birth of a Media Center
  • Hank
    Super Senior Member
    • Jul 2002
    • 1345

    #2
    Pete, you jumped on those new Dayton 7-inchers like flies on a cow patty. Let us know how they sound. What will the cabinet size be?

    Comment

    • PMazz
      Senior Member
      • May 2001
      • 861

      #3
      I'm going to try a dipole setup first. It doesn't get much easier than that to build. I can always cut up the dipole baffle and use it for a sealed enclosure. We'll see.....

      Pete
      Birth of a Media Center

      Comment

      • PMazz
        Senior Member
        • May 2001
        • 861

        #4
        The Daytons came in today. They look pretty nice. Hope they sound as good. I have a dipole design on the board. Something a little nicer to look at. Still unfinished until the final nod, but a little shaplier than the last couple.

        I also got some other components for the notch filter. I think I over did the last one. A little too heavy handed with the shape of the filter. I'll try a happy medium with these new parts.

        Pete
        Birth of a Media Center

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15259

          #5
          Keep us informed of your progress. I'm assuming you've seen the baffle that ThomasW created for the Eton 7's and RD75. Something of a monster.... doing it with dipoles seems to move towards that, though I don't think it has to. Perhaps a non sloped design like Linkwitz's Orion, but in an array, can be tuned correctly so that the diffraction issues and dipole cancellation work together. Even for me, that's my phase II concept if I don't like how the seaked version works- or maybe I'll try it as an alternative. I'd end up with something the width of my Arvo Part concept (for the midwoofers, plus a section for the RD50), with a column of M8a's, I expect- since the extra Xmax can't do anything but help. Right now, that's out of my price range, though! I think the trick (for me) would be finding the baffle size that allows optimum RD50 performance without Eq down to 600 Hz, and all the rest of the EQ (dipole/baffle step) on the midwoofer array, which could wind up being more efficient.

          But that's also got me wondering what might be possible with the M12a's, once they're released. With ~ 8mm Xmax, and 93 dB/2.83V, and a break up mode that's way up their, they are really inriguing. 4 per side in dipole could be pretty awesome....






          BTW, Swan has updated their web site recently. Broke some older URLS, though.

          Regards,

          Jon




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          Comment

          • PMazz
            Senior Member
            • May 2001
            • 861

            #6
            I felt the same way Jon. I would have loved to do a line of M8as next to the RD50, but.....

            The response curve certainly looks amazing for a driver that size. Is that a "known" measurement or factory?

            As for my design for a dipole array, I'm trying to hold baffle width within reason, and am going with wings on the back to try and compensate. Here's what I'm thinking:



            I'm leaving room for a DPL12 at the bottom....just in case. I'll need more amp channels to run a 3-way, tho. So right now it's wishful thinking.

            Pete
            Birth of a Media Center

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15259

              #7
              So you're shooting for 12-1/2" overall? Linkwitz claims that for the midrange performance (up to 1.5 kHz), his width is ideal, but maybe a little wider might work for what you and I are doing. That's why the Arvo's are about 16" overall.

              BTW, the plot I showed you above is for the TWELVE INCH HiVi, not yet released, not the 8"! Here's a plot on the 8" M8n, the new stamped frame version (lower cost) of the 8", and my own experience is that it's quite accurate, assuming an IEC test baffle (as they and most manufacturers do). You can see why I liked the M8a for my bookshelf project.




              But I understand your issues about the cost- same thing here. Every now and then I get this far away look in my eye, and think, "What if...."

              ~Jon




              Earth First!
              _______________________________
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              the AudioWorx
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              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • PMazz
                Senior Member
                • May 2001
                • 861

                #8
                The drawing's a little fuzzy....or it's my eyes.

                The baffle width is 13 1/2". That's pretty much the minimum width possible with my design. Not shown on the drawing is a vertical brace running between the RD50 and Daytons for stiffening. It'll have the same profile as the back of the wings, until it reaches the bottom of the line. It'll be capped off, side to side, to allow a 12" driver to be installed if needed. I'm hoping the Daytons can reach low enough to integrate with my sub, xed at 90 Hz. We'll see.

                Yea, I understood the graph was for the 12". I'm amazed it'll get that high w/o serious breakup. Could put a whole new spin on things.

                I just need to find more play money, that's all there is to it!

                Pete
                Birth of a Media Center

                Comment

                • Brian Bunge
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Nov 2001
                  • 1389

                  #9
                  Pete,

                  Any chance you could post some better pics than what's on the PE website of those Daytons? I'd like to see some better detail of the basket.

                  Brian

                  Comment

                  • Hank
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 1345

                    #10
                    That IS quite a plot for the new 12" HiVi. Jon, you're pondering 4 in a dipole stack? I assume you're thinking a separate 'cabinet' alongside your sealed RD50 cabinet? The two cabs stacked would be at least 9' tall, right? So, what will be the price of the new 12"?
                    Pete, keep us posted. Back when I was thinking dipole, I was leaning toward a tapered cab and using very large radius sides, perhaps fabricated with some 6" radius plywood quarter-rounds that some of the wood suppliers carry. Tape-Ease, the veneer source has them:

                    Comment

                    • Brian Bunge
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Nov 2001
                      • 1389

                      #11
                      Hank,

                      I know John at Stryke has sourced some 2" radius corners made of MDF. Frow the pics he showed me they're solid and have notches cut out of the to mate up with 3/4" MDF. I'm thinking they may be more stable than using curved plywood. BTW, he's using these on his new line arrays that he's developing. I don't know how they'll sound, but they sure look awesome with a maple baffle and figured walnut sides.

                      Brian

                      Comment

                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 15259

                        #12
                        Well, Hank, I'm pondering all my options. I'm probably going to build both a single sealed proto and a dipole proto, because I can do it with no additional expense besides the wood and time. The reason being that I'm planning on buying four of the M12's to build new bottoms for my X1's. So I can use the same drivers at first in an experimental dipole array.

                        Now, Linkwitz says that the front and rear wave diffraction events at the panel boundary cancel each other, so you don't have the issues with cabinet edge diffraction that you do with a sealed box. That's an interesting thought, so I plan to investigate it with the Arvo, and probably with this test dipole. Now, the M12 isn't optimized per se for dipole use, so there are some if's and's and but's about whether there will be issues re driver noise (from the rear) under excursion. When thinking about this I'm not looking for subterranean bass just from the twelves- if it will be clean as low as big Maggies (low 40's to high 30's), then crossing over to a monopole woofer would be feasible. Already got the gear to do that, too.

                        Now, the other issue would be sizing the baffle and spacing so that the RD50 is adequately loaded down to a bit below 600 Hz- at least 400 or so.

                        I'm afraid this has me making a nightmare of a test baffle, a little like Thomas's big guy- but at this time, I don't think it needs to be so big. That baffle was so big the 7"s were flat down to almost 100 HZ with no EQ. I'm thinking a panel about 55-57" tall, total width about 24". Will require EQ in the bottom end. Those 12's (unlike most) will easily make it up to a crossover point of 600Hz, and as you can see, 30 degree off axis dispersion is not a factor until above 1 kHz.


                        I first found out about these with Dennis H's post in early June, and contacted Darren at PE at that time- he didn't know about them, but was pretty excited about them too, especially after I shared some thoughts about what you could do with these. He said availability thorugh PE was a few months away- to me, that translates as October/November, worst case. No idea on price. My guess is about 2X what a M8a costs. A series/parallel four driver array would have the same efficiency as a single driver, but some pretty awesome power handling. Considering the usual ratios for dipole Sd to box Sd, that means we can expect about the same SPL from 4 in dipole as 1 in box, though technically more and lower distortion in the upper bass/midrange. With the differences in efficiency, I can do 6 dB of the dipole EQ in the crossover, and the rest in a passive or active front end box (Between preamp and amp, or in tape loop. I'm panning on using my balanced differential NFB circuit, set for unity gain in upperbass/midrange; it's capable of single or balanced in, balanced/single out).

                        Questions, quesitons, questions. More ideas and questions than time, right now. I'm hoping that will improve by Xmas.

                        Working this weekend again, traveling next week. Ugh!


                        ~Jon




                        Earth First!
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                        Comment

                        • PMazz
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2001
                          • 861

                          #13
                          Brian,
                          Here's some pics:










                          Pete
                          Birth of a Media Center

                          Comment

                          • PMazz
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2001
                            • 861

                            #14
                            Started the new dipole enclosure today. All that's left is 12 holes for the Daytons.....





                            And maybe some small radiuses on the front baffle. And sanding and mounting drivers and wiring.....

                            Pete
                            Birth of a Media Center

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15259

                              #15
                              Yeah, it's amazing how much work you can have left to do at this point.....
                              8O



                              Gonna go out and make a little more MDF dust this AM myself, till I have to bring my self back inside for some "company" work. Well, a couple of hours is better than no hours!

                              ~Jon




                              Earth First!
                              _______________________________
                              We'll screw up the other planets later....
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
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                              SMJ
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                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                              Obi-Wan
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                              Modula PWB
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                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • PMazz
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2001
                                • 861

                                #16
                                Made some more progress today. I didn't give much thought about the wiring, beyond working out the load on the amp. Actually wiring 12 drivers is another thing altogether. What a pain!



                                I like the black and silver combination right off the get go.

                                I had to use some 3/4" MDF strips so they wouldn't tip forward on the carpet. They were fine on the concrete floor of the shop. There is 3" of vertical offset built in to the enclosure, but just too much weight up front for carpet. Maybe I'll finally use those black anodized legs I bought a year ago..... or maybe just cut some 1/2" strips to fit.

                                Right off the get go they sound much more coherent. Now I realize how poorly the "bass box" integrated with the ribbons. I have them running full range for a little break in. They definitely need a sub. I'm impressed so far tho. I'll do some measurements after I live with them for a bit.

                                Pete
                                Birth of a Media Center

                                Comment

                                • sfdoddsy
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Sep 2000
                                  • 496

                                  #17
                                  Pete,

                                  A Stryke AV12 would look pretty good with all that silver and black. You might even be able to run it dipole.

                                  They look very nice.

                                  Steve




                                  Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                  Steve's OB Journey

                                  Comment

                                  • PMazz
                                    Senior Member
                                    • May 2001
                                    • 861

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by sfdoddsy
                                    Pete,

                                    A Stryke AV12 would look pretty good with all that silver and black. You might even be able to run it dipole.

                                    They look very nice.

                                    Steve
                                    Thanks Steve. Hmmm, I just happen to have 4 AV12s sitting at the shop. They are destined for a big sub, tho, if John ever gets the replacements out. I also have 4 DPL12s looking for a home. I wonder if I paint the DPL12s cone silver.....

                                    Pete
                                    Birth of a Media Center

                                    Comment

                                    • PMazz
                                      Senior Member
                                      • May 2001
                                      • 861

                                      #19
                                      Is there another notch filter in my future????

                                      Took some measurements of the new array. It looks like the Daytons have some issues, or I'm going about this the wrong way. A nearfield measurement doesn't show the hump in the response, but at 1 or 2 M it appears. The blue curve is both running and the green is just the Daytons, both from 2M. Any ideas?



                                      The good news is I'm getting good output from them down to ~60Hz. They blend well with my sub. They are sounding very good!!!

                                      Pete
                                      Birth of a Media Center

                                      Comment

                                      • sfdoddsy
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Sep 2000
                                        • 496

                                        #20
                                        It looks like the peak I get with my dipoles before EQ, and the one mentioned on SLs site. You are running these dipole aren't you?

                                        Frequency response measurement of the PHOENIX dipole loudspeaker system.


                                        Steve




                                        Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                        Steve's OB Journey

                                        Comment

                                        • PMazz
                                          Senior Member
                                          • May 2001
                                          • 861

                                          #21
                                          Thanks Steve. Yea, they're dipole. I played with a passive design for a notch filter. Would have to use some monster sized caps.....

                                          Oh to have a digital xover....

                                          Pete
                                          Birth of a Media Center

                                          Comment

                                          • sfdoddsy
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Sep 2000
                                            • 496

                                            #22
                                            Well, you can get the Behringer DCX2496 from www.americanmusical.com for 3 payments of $116 a month.

                                            :idea:




                                            Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                            Steve's OB Journey

                                            Comment

                                            • Hank
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Jul 2002
                                              • 1345

                                              #23
                                              Brian, I've seen those MDF corner rounds before, but that's only 2" radius. Plywood rounds come in much larger radiuses, and I was thinking 2" wouldn't do the job. We'll see...

                                              Comment

                                              • PMazz
                                                Senior Member
                                                • May 2001
                                                • 861

                                                #24
                                                Hank, the MDF corners we've always used are 3" radius. I'll check to see if they're available in anything bigger.

                                                Pete
                                                Birth of a Media Center

                                                Comment

                                                • PMazz
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • May 2001
                                                  • 861

                                                  #25
                                                  Man, I am loving the sound coming from this setup!!!

                                                  I forgot that my B&K has a notch filter built in. I set it for 300Hz (highest setting) widest Q (probably not quite wide enough) and 7dB cut. I haven't measured it, but I'm all smiles with the sound. They now have a well integrated sound, sitting, standing, anywhere between the speakers. I'm listening to CDs that were intolerable before. I'm really amazed.

                                                  Now to play with xover freqs. The poobahs recommend 600Hz. Can't wait!

                                                  Pete
                                                  Birth of a Media Center

                                                  Comment

                                                  • PMazz
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • May 2001
                                                    • 861

                                                    #26
                                                    Here's the FR with the new notch filter in line with the Daytons.



                                                    Much better!!!

                                                    Pete
                                                    Birth of a Media Center

                                                    Comment

                                                    • ThomasW
                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 10934

                                                      #27
                                                      Looking damn good Pete. arty:

                                                      We experimented with 500Hz to 650Hz so that's a good safe range to start.




                                                      theAudioWorx
                                                      Klone-Audio

                                                      IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                      "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                      Comment

                                                      • PMazz
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • May 2001
                                                        • 861

                                                        #28
                                                        Thanks Tom. I've got the parts for the Marchand xover and that's my next round of tweaks.

                                                        Pete
                                                        Birth of a Media Center

                                                        Comment

                                                        • PMazz
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • May 2001
                                                          • 861

                                                          #29
                                                          Pete,
                                                          Do you have a photo of your system with the wider wings? I couldn't find it in the original thread.

                                                          Wider wings will definitely change the polar response. It will widen. The rear wave adds with the front at off-axis angles so you'll get more reverberant energy even though the on-axis measurments might look good. EQ'ing the polar response is not possible since it would affect the on-axis response.

                                                          Varying the baffle shapes/width to keep the polar response uniform is the essence of dipole design. This is something Linkwitz has been investigating and experimenting with for quite awhile. I'm just a neophyte, but I'm really starting to appreciate how tricky this is.

                                                          I think the basic design of dipoles is just so much superior to anything else that even if you don't do it optimally it's still better than most everythng else.

                                                          Cheers,

                                                          Davey.
                                                          Davey, I quoted you back in this thread to keep it in one space.

                                                          If you look at thread 14, you can see the parts. If you notice, on the stack, there are 2 stiffeners used between the ribbons and the Daytons. They don't extend to the bottom to leave room for a woofer, if I go that route.

                                                          Basically, it creates a cavity behind the baffle. seperating the array of drivers.

                                                          Pete
                                                          Birth of a Media Center

                                                          Comment

                                                          • ThomasW
                                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 10934

                                                            #30
                                                            Pete

                                                            Iif you want to continue the experiment grab a piece of scrap that's as long as the array is tall.

                                                            Cut a trapazoid (right triangle with a flat top) that's 3-4" wide at the top tapering to 12" wide at the bottom. Use something quick and dirty to attach it to the planar side of one of the speakers. Then compare the sonic difference between it and the existing baffle.

                                                            Varying the width and taper will change the dispersion (polar response).

                                                            If you want to try and equalize the dispersion make a straight wing attached to the planar side that equal to the width of the of the cone side.




                                                            theAudioWorx
                                                            Klone-Audio

                                                            IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                            Comment

                                                            • PMazz
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • May 2001
                                                              • 861

                                                              #31
                                                              Cut a trapazoid (right triangle with a flat top) that's 3-4" wide at the top tapering to 12" wide at the bottom. Use something quick and dirty to attach it to the planar side of one of the speakers. Then compare the sonic difference between it and the existing baffle.
                                                              Does it have to be attached on the same plane as the baffle or can it extend back along the sides, adjacent to the baffle?

                                                              I am starting to think the vertical stiffener I used may have impacted the sound/dispersion of the rear wave also. I'm thinking I should have made the baffle much thicker (stiffer) and done away with the brace.

                                                              I really should read SL's site and try to get a better grasp of what's going on.

                                                              Pete
                                                              Birth of a Media Center

                                                              Comment

                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 15259

                                                                #32
                                                                Seeing all your pics and plots makes me wish I had some time on my hands to play with this stuff- even though I'm leaning towards an M8a driver array for the "final" version, in dipole, I think I'd toss together something like what you've got (probably a skosh wider, more baffle towards the inside of the RD50), and get something working my my MCM carbon fiber drivers.

                                                                Maybe during the Thanksgiving break, but more likely I'll be doing veneering then. Also have to find somewhere else to setup my saw.

                                                                Keep up the good work, Pete- your plots are in the ball back, I'd fine tune the baffle stuff by looking at a combo of the on axis and 15-30 degrees off axis; try to optimize for the flattest smoothest response in both.

                                                                Also, I'm pondering either the ESG2i or the Fountek or the new HiVi RT2-II line tweeter for a line array, to fill in as the Technics ribbons do in Thomas's setup. Will probably have to buy samples and test.


                                                                Best regards,

                                                                ~Jon




                                                                Earth First!
                                                                _______________________________
                                                                We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                                the AudioWorx
                                                                Natalie P
                                                                M8ta
                                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                                Modula MT XE
                                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                                Isiris
                                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                                SMJ
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                                                                Calliope
                                                                Ardent D

                                                                In Development...
                                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                                                Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                Modula PWB
                                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Davey
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Jan 2003
                                                                  • 355

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Pete,

                                                                  SL's site is very informative, but even he admits to much experimentation when it comes to finding optimal baffle shape. Grin. There are no computer programs to model this effect....it's trial and error.

                                                                  The vertical stiffeners affect the dispersion and so does the physical construction of the Dayton drivers. The steel basket vents mostly to the side and they have a large magnet structure that seems fairly constrictive. A thicker baffle with no vertical braces might have made the situation better...it's hard to say.

                                                                  If it were me (being the expert that I am..Ha!) I'd have built the baffle first and not attached any other pieces. Propped up the contraption somehow and performed a bunch of tests with various sizes and shapes of symetrical and asymetrical cardboard extensions to see if you could identify a fairly uniform polar response. Possibly a trapezoidal shape (as Thomas mentioned) would yield the best result.
                                                                  It doesn't sound like much fun to me....especially in your case since you'd probably see a lot of combing at the kind of microphone distances you'd be using indoors.

                                                                  But, you mentioned you're "loving the sound coming from this setup" so that kinda trumps everything else anyway eh?

                                                                  That's the problem with all this speaker design stuff......you end up spending too much time listening/measruing the system and not enough enjoying the music. Terrible hobby!

                                                                  Cheers,

                                                                  Davey.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • ThomasW
                                                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 10934

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Does it have to be attached on the same plane as the baffle or can it extend back along the sides, adjacent to the baffle?
                                                                    Pete

                                                                    It should act as an extension to the width of the front baffle.

                                                                    If you look at the thread where Victor posted pics of his massive array you'll see an optomized version of what the baffle should look like




                                                                    theAudioWorx
                                                                    Klone-Audio

                                                                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • PMazz
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • May 2001
                                                                      • 861

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Thanks all. Looks like I have some more work to do.

                                                                      Don't get me wrong, the array is sounding very very good. It's the little things now to wring the last bit out of them.

                                                                      Pete
                                                                      Birth of a Media Center

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