B&G planar project started

[ThomasW]

OK the Swan Dul'cet model 2 "project" is officially underway. Orders have been placed for a pair of B&G RD75s and 16 Eton 8-480s.

As items arrive and the constuction process begins I'll post upgrades and do a "Patrick Sun" type photo shoot. This is the first project where I've had unlimited access to a digital camera.

The sub section of the Swan won't be copied

For those not familar with the speaker being "kloned" here a link

http://swanspeaker.com/products/system/dulcet/dc2.htm

theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Pat]

WOW! that is great news Thomas.
I will be waiting and watching every step




Pat's Page

[Jeremy Santos]

Those are beautiful!!! Wanna make a pair for me too!?!?PLLLEEAASSEEEE!!!




Jeremy Santos

My Software
Santos Theater

Play It Loud, Play It Clean!!!!!

[ThomasW]

Sure Jeremy all it takes is cubic $$$$

The first part of the project will involve building a prototype. Just a quick and dirty MDF "box" for testing purposes. Once everything measures OK, then a "pretty" cabinet will be constructed. But unlike the one piece enclosure Swan uses, mine will be 3pcs/side. A little easier to carry around




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[John Holmes]

Those look great. I like Pat, will just sit with my eyes wide open and enjoy:B




"I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's

[EdP]

ThomasW - With the B+G 75 and the Eton's I would expect superior performance than the Hi-Vi offerings. What drivers are you planning to use in place of the RT1's tweeters?

Xover points, slopes and passive/active?
B+G in monopole or bipole?

[Bing Fung]

Atta boy teacher! You know we are all listening




Bing

[ThomasW]

Hi Ed, nice of you to stop by.

This is going to be a evolving project. I hope to be able to make everything but the tweeters as dipole, including the Eton 8"s.

Probably Marchand active XO's for everything. 24db/octave slopes. More expensive but easier in the long run. I'll of course need some form of "step" compensation.

The Etons will be run up to 250-350Hz. The RD75 go up from there. This is almost octave above their 175Hz cutoff so it sould be fine. I have many options for the leafs. I have new old stock Foster, and Panasonic units, enough of either for the project. I've also been in touch with Hi-Vi and they will sell their small leafs for a good price in quantity. However I'm leaning toward using John Meyers 45" ribbons. These are of course overkill, but they would provide tremendous flexibility in choosing the XO point, compared to all the other leafs I've listed. The final decision on tweeters will be made after the other baffles are tested and a configuration is fixed. Unfortunately a line array of Ravens isn't in the budget

The preliminary plan is to build open baffles with side "winglets" something like those used in the Martin Logan E2 Statement. This will include having a slight space between the individual baffles. If design proves impractical I'll go sealed/ported box with the Eton's and dipole RD75s.

I've been in contact with John Whittaker and he's making suggestions based on his "baffle research" with the RD75s. Also I "polled" the members of the bass-list for their experience, so I have several paths to try. There seems to be some significant diffraction cancellation issues that will need to be addressed. Atleast according to John's testing.

So all in all it looks to be a interesting and complicated winter/spring project.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Andrew Pratt]

Thomas out of curiosity where to all your creations go? I mean how many pairs of speakers do you own?

[ThomasW]

Andrew

Interesting question, they always seem to find a home.

With the advent of 5.1 there are a lot more speakers in any given room. I have 2 complete 5.1 systems, family room and HT. And 2 complete stereo systems bedroom and office

Sometimes they are sold, usually for the raw component cost. That's how Joey got his new mains and center.

Sometimes they end up as hand-me-downs to other rooms in the house. Old mains end up as new rears

Others end up as gifts to friends and family.

Occasionally the enclosures are simply gutted and the components are recycled to a new project. This occurs only if there aren't nicely finished cabinets.

Currently there's only a "boom box" in the shop :B




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Andrew Pratt]

well just don't forget about us "little" people when you eventually give any those Whispers LOL

[Lexman]

All I can say is, that's one helluva set of rear speakers, :B

Lex

[ThomasW]

Andrew

Hey no problem, I'll send out the Whisper klones as soon as the RD75s are finished.

Now let's see, 500+ lbs, via UPS RED, insured for $5000, shipped freight COD :B

Lex, those are the side speakers




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Andrew Pratt]

That would still be a bargin

[EdP]

ThomasW - The Newform 45 ribbons might be interesting, in that they would solve the monopole tweeter design requirement, but not certain they will do much more than the B+G 75's in the upper frequencies (well except more SPL's)

You mentioned the Raven and the GULP cost, but still 4 R2's would be nearly the same cost as 2 of the Newform 45". The two per side R2 would give you nearly 15" of line source super tweeter performance. Shipping costs would probably be higher on the Ravens though. "Hewn out of billet" seems to be the best description.

Another suggestion is the Audax Gold "gas bag" unit. Still costly, but 4 per side would be killer.

Depending on the leafs, still got to think they would be more fitting sitting next to the eton/B+G's than the Hi-Vi's.

BTW, I have not used any of these ribbons personally, I have only heard/seen/touched them in other DIY'ers (and some commercial) creations.

[KennyG]

It's going to be interesting to watch as these beauties unfold.
Thomas if I hadn't just sent off a rather large chunk of money for my projector, I'd take you up on the Whispers Klones...they'd take over my mains, and the Focus would become one incredible set of rears!!! I'm very serious about that.
I'll be watching. KennyG

[ThomasW]

EdP

I've used the Technics 200,400, and the Foster. The problem with any of the leafs/ribbons is that the vertical window is only as tall as the array, so two Ravens just won't cut it. One reason for considering the Newform 45 is that Whittaker's plots shows a big dip at 1K

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/7067.html

All this will get sorted out when the prototype is measured.

Kenny

Sorry they aren't for sale. I was just goofing on Andrew




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[EdP]

The R2's are more plannar, but they do have a window above and below. Thats why I said 15".

The Audax, although not line source, has an great coverage that more approaches line source than anyother dome unit, due to its oval shape. 4 per side might suprise you. Still under stand the line source full size coverage you are going for.

[ThomasW]

Ok, they're here

Man these things are heavy, around 33lbs for a single 75" element.

Bad news is that there was a 20% price increase starting 01/01/01. So I lucked out, saving $160 on the pair, by ordering the end of November.

There won't be a rush getting these built. The deadline for completing the prototype will be April 22nd. That's when JonMarsh will be in Denver. He'll bring the CLIO system and calibrated mic, so accurate performance measurements can be made.

Also we're attempting to create a "group buy" on the "spiral cut" ribbons used in the Infinity and VMPS speakers. In bulk these are very reasonably priced, but the mininium order is 2000pcs. So I'll be trying to get a retailer to do a preorder pricing special if enough people are interested. Anyone interested can email me for details about the tweeters and possible pricing.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Bing Fung]

33 lbs, and that's just to be added tothe main drivers and wood work, quick guesstimate puts the finished set around 200 lbs? :B

Or is that still lite?




Bing

[Stryke]

Thomas,

We talked before about those cheaper yellow cone 6.5" drivers that I am getting in. I had thoughts on a project using them and the 2" x 3.5" drivers I have here. I won't be doing a klone of anything, just building a 2 way line array system.

However, as a budget kit for someone to do, a klone of the Dulcet speaker could be approximated fairly cheaply. 8 of the woven glass fibre cone drivers could be used in place of the Eton drivers, and 18 or 20 of the 2" x 3.5" drivers could be used to approximate the RD75. Now granted using an array of small drivers will not be identical to the RD75, but should get you fairly close in response, and with these drivers would give much better off axis response. The cost for those drivers would be only about $300 per pair. That would only leave only finding something inexpensive to use for the leafs.

Any thoughts?

John

[ThomasW]

Bing

For some reason I expected the planars to be "lite". Silly me I've hefted plenty of Maggies around, so I should have known better

I would think a full klone of the Swans would easily tip the scales at 200lbs.

John J.

I've been considering a couple variations of line array designs. You 6.5" "glass" woofers with the oval cone units is certainly an attractive very low cost option.

We need a retailer to create a pre-production purchase of HiBox brand http://www.hibox.com.tw/ "spiral cut" ribbons. Cost is $3.50-$4.50/ea . Know anyone that might be interested? :B

Specs on 1 of the 3 available HiBox ribbons
Model # RDT-25E
Music Power: 100W
Voice Coil Dia: 25mm
Dome Material: Emit
Neo. Magnet:24.5 X H6 mm
Sensitivity(1W, 1M): 91dB
Frequency Range: 4.5K~30K Hz
Dimension:93.6 X H 27.5 mm




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Stryke]

Thomas,

This would definitely be something I could consider doing. The only issues would be the quantity of the order, and the amount of the initial investment I would need to make. I've also been trying to check out the details on those drivers, but it appears that the HiBox site has been down for the past few days.

Do you happen to have an email address for the company? That way I could contact them and see about getting some samples. Also have you seen any of these drivers yet, or just on their website?

John

[Tibor]

Thomas what will your total cost be for the Klone?

[ThomasW]

Tibor

RD75's are now $495ea, the Eton 8"s were $68ea, leafs are currently an "unknown". John J. is looking at some relatively inexpensive leafs though

I'll use a modified Marchand XM9-KK active crossover so add $295. Then chip in a couple hundred for materials etc.

Understand this is pretty much a "cost is no object project" designed to have virtually no limiting factors on performance.

An interesting inexpensive "upgradable" version could startout as John J. described in his earlier post in this thread. Use the Stryke 6.5"s and oval drivers, with passive XO's. Then as time/money permit, add the ribbon/leaf tweeters, RD75's and active XO.

Here's a link to John's post where he does a nice job explaining line arrays.

http://www.htguide.com/CFBoards/index.cfm?fuseaction=Threads.viewthread&CFB=1&TID=9128&DoOnePage=Yes

theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Stryke]

Thomas,

Don't know if you read the Madisound board often or not, but speaker city has HiVi R2T tweeters for $49.95 each.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi?read=78388

I believe these are the same ones I mentioned to you in the email that Nick looked at out at CES.

John

[Pat]

There won't be a rush getting these built. The deadline for completing the prototype will be April 22nd. That's when JonMarsh will be in Denver. He'll bring the CLIO system and calibrated mic, so accurate performance measurements can be made.

Thomas, any updates?
Inquiring minds want to know




Pat's Page

[ThomasW]

Hi Pat

This project got temporarily sidelined because I'm currently rebuilding the sprinker system for the lawn. The old system leaked and as a result there was 2" of H2O in the basement. The entire wood shop have to be taken apart then put back together again because the whole shop dust collection system was filled with water. Fortunately no damage to anything important, just a major inconvience

Jon's trip was postphoned until sometime in late May.

I did get a pair of the $25 planar tweeters from Stryke and will be testing them.

So all the basic parts for the Dul'cet are here and it's just a matter of getting time to make a prototype baffle. One speaker will certainly be up and running by the time you get to Colo for your trip.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Andrew Pratt]

to bad about the water damage thomas...at least nothing was damaged.

[Pat]

Glad to hear nothing major was damaged by the water.

Prototype up and running in a month...cool...that would be awesome to actually hear what one sounds like :B




Pat's Page

[Patrick Sun]

Thomas, that's a major bummer! Hope you get your work area back up and running soon!




PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs

[ThomasW]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the encouragement

The shop is now operational, but I'm stuck rebuilding the manifold system for the front sprinklers that caused the flood. And it's been snowing for 2 days, so progress is at a standstill.

I'll start a new thread with pics of the prototype when it's started.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

Talking about speaker development, I've seen some new activity over on the CLIOWIN site, including announcment of a demo version to come around May 21, and a CLIO "Grand Prix" contest, with Standard CLIOWIN and CLIOWIN Lite software as prizes- besides the publicity! Gee, maybe I better get my but in gear and wrap up some of the stuff with the X1 clones, huh? In fact, I went ahead and entered the "subscription form" to be registered for the contest.

Maybe the B&G Planar Project can be used for this contest also? I'm not sure that there's a limit of one project per CLIO system number- if not, the more the merrier!?!

Regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[ChristianT]

Thomas,

I am following your Swan project with great interest. Since this project is a "clone", what where the criteria used to select the Eton drivers over the drivers from Hi-Vi. I'm sure cost and performance both played a role, but I am looking for some insight into how they factored into your decision.

Additionally, are you going to have tweeters placed on the rear baffle in the same configuration as the Dulcet?

The pictures on your web site of the test baffle looked pretty impressive to me. I can't wait to see what the finished versions look like.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Christian

[ThomasW]

Christian

The Eton drivers were chosen for several reasons. First, Eton's kevlar cones are some of the best sounding transducers I've ever heard. Second, I wanted to user drivers larger than 6.5's or better mid bass performance. Lastly the specific Etons being used was available as a mfgr overstock at a very attractive price from Madisound a year or so back.

Once a front tweeter has been decided upon, then the speaker will be evaluated to see if ambient tweeters would be beneficial. It's possible that a dome tweeter like the Audax DTI01, which is flat to almost 40Khz, and used by Wilson Audio might be considered. I'm not positive that the rear firing tweeters need to the identical to the fronts given their role.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio