Oh no, 3 broken woofers on my 802s? heeeeelp...

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  • tmt
    Member
    • Jan 2005
    • 88

    Oh no, 3 broken woofers on my 802s? heeeeelp...

    Disaster! I was fiddling with some settings on my HTPC, which is my temporary pre-amp to my Classe CA-401, connected to my nautilus 802 speakers.
    I opened a wrong window and the sound just went from very low to max volume. I shut it down as fast as I could but I think I've blown up 3 of the 4 woofers of my 802's.

    Normally when you gently tick on a woofer you hear a low sound (difficult to explain, like the sound of a subwoofer), but on 3 of the woofers when I press slightly on the woofer I now hear a scraping sound. So something is now touching the paper cone.
    Is there any way to check some stuff myself before I go to a shop to ask for repairs?

    Oh man I can kick myself right now :evil:
  • mjb
    Super Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 1483

    #2
    Unfortunately there's not much to test. If you gently push the cone in and hear the scraping sound and feel a physical resistance then you've pretty much confirmed your fears.
    - Mike

    Main System:
    B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
    Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

    Comment

    • tmt
      Member
      • Jan 2005
      • 88

      #3
      the 'stuff' I maybe could check is whether I can remove the woofers and install new ones myself, or does it has to be done by a professional?

      There are 6 screws around each woofer. Are they used to remove the woofers?

      Comment

      • emig5m
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2008
        • 646

        #4
        This is why I would NEVER trust a PC as a pre-amp! WAY too glitchy and WAY too much potential for something to go wrong! With that said, I do use a PC as a source for bitstreaming digitally, but NEVER as a DAC and Pre! Too bad you don't live near me, my father repairs woofers for people all the time and he could disassemble and repair it if it's possible. I've also seen raw B&W replacement drivers on ebay from time-to-time.

        Comment

        • MikeFL52
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2007
          • 118

          #5
          Apart from the cost of replacement, your biggest problem is going to be getting the spares, I shouldn't imagine anyone has them just sitting around. Small consolation but I bet of all the speakers in the 802D that the subs are the cheapest, good job it wan't the tweeters.

          Comment

          • sikoniko
            Super Senior Member
            • Aug 2003
            • 2299

            #6
            Wonder how well the d woofers would work in an n 802.
            I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

            Comment

            • dmccombs
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2006
              • 306

              #7
              I would contact your dealer and see what he/she suggests. B&W is pretty good about replacing drivers under warantee, even if they are over 1 year old.

              B&W keeps lots of drivers in stock and they usually can be sent to your dealer in about a week. They may even have 802N drivers.

              Good Luck.

              Comment

              • tim916
                Junior Member
                • May 2009
                • 10

                #8
                Originally posted by MikeFL52
                Apart from the cost of replacement, your biggest problem is going to be getting the spares, I shouldn't imagine anyone has them just sitting around. Small consolation but I bet of all the speakers in the 802D that the subs are the cheapest, good job it wan't the tweeters.
                The B&W NA headquarters in Mass. has aisles packed floor to ceiling with replacement parts for speakers going back 20 years or more. This kind of product support is one of the nice things about owning B&Ws.

                Comment

                • Kevin D
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Oct 2002
                  • 4601

                  #9
                  You didn't say, but do they sound blown?

                  Kevin D.

                  Comment

                  • ironcorn
                    Junior Member
                    • Feb 2009
                    • 17

                    #10
                    Originally posted by sikoniko
                    Wonder how well the d woofers would work in an n 802.
                    I was thinking the same thing, bolt pattern appears the same, I was thinking of swapping in the woofer/mid/tweeter from the D into my 802N as well

                    Comment

                    • Space
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 118

                      #11
                      Some brands of speakers will sell you replacement parts online, but it doesn't look like B&W is one. Your dealer can surely order replacement woofers and there's no special skill needed to operate a screwdriver. I'd suggest not swapping drivers between models if the part number is different because the parameters may be different (frequency response, impedance, sensitivity, who knows).

                      Also it's surprising that a woofer would not survive even a few seconds of max output. Do you have an ultra high-powered amp? You might consider passive in-line attenuators between preamp and amp to limit peak output in the future.

                      Edit: Classe 401, right, pretty big amp. You can get attenuators at Parts Express. I've used them and they seem transparent.

                      Comment

                      • tmt
                        Member
                        • Jan 2005
                        • 88

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Kevin D
                        You didn't say, but do they sound blown?

                        Kevin D.
                        How does a blown speaker sound like?
                        The woofers still play, but there is a ratteling sound. And when you press on them you hear a scraping sound, as if something is touching the cone on the inside.
                        I contacted B&W Belgium. Spare parts is not a problem (about 200 euros per woofer for the N802 :cry: ). When removing it yourself they recommend laying the speaker on it's back because the woofer's quite heavy.

                        Before I'm ordering anything I'm going to remove the woofers to see what has happened.
                        Can anyone tell me how to do this correctly? I can remove the screws allright , but then what? I'm just wanting to be as carefull as I can be in doing this.

                        Comment

                        • MikeFL52
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2007
                          • 118

                          #13
                          Originally posted by tim916
                          The B&W NA headquarters in Mass. has aisles packed floor to ceiling with replacement parts for speakers going back 20 years or more. This kind of product support is one of the nice things about owning B&Ws.
                          Amazing :T

                          Comment

                          • DM3000 Owner
                            Senior Member
                            • Jun 2006
                            • 475

                            #14
                            THat is yoru voice coil rubbing. The woofer needs to be replaced or rebuilt. B&W probably stocks both replacement woofers and rebuild kits, if you can find someone who can handle the rebuild.

                            One other thing, when you remove the woofers, B&W solders their terminals, so you will need to remove the solder to get the woofers off.

                            For the resolder, they just use "plain old solder" as told to me by one of their engineers, no 4% silver or anything like that. That stuff is just for Audiophiles to worry about, not high end speaker manufacturers. 8O

                            Comment

                            • Graham
                              Junior Member
                              • Feb 2006
                              • 9

                              #15
                              Originally posted by tmt
                              When removing it yourself they recommend laying the speaker on it's back because the woofer's quite heavy.
                              They're right. Lay it on it's back and put a towel or cloth on some part of the upper surface of the wood. Unscrew the screws and then carefully lift out the driver, resting it on the cloth.

                              You should have plenty of spare wire, so if it feels tight reach in behind the driver and see if it's tied or caught somewhere. On the Matrix range they used clips rather than solder, but if they are soldered it's probably easier just to cut the wire and restrip it as near the driver as possible. Then you'll have clean wire for soldering to the new drivers. Before removing the existing wires make sure you have noted which wire goes to which terminal (+ve and -ve).

                              When soldering be careful not to drip any solder onto the wires or the driver. I put some kitchen towel around mine just in case, but of course keep any paper well away from the heat!

                              When you put the driver back in make sure the wires aren't going to be touching anything where they might rattle. Also when rescrewing the drivers don't over-tighten the screws - on the Matrix they just screw into the wood and you don't want to strip the thread. After a few weeks recheck to see if any screws have vibrated loose.

                              Have fun!

                              Comment

                              • tmt
                                Member
                                • Jan 2005
                                • 88

                                #16
                                I finally got the nerves to take out one of the broken woofers. In the end it was easier than I thought.

                                The wires are not soldered, so it was very easy to unplug it. (yes, I took photos of everything )

                                I have here a picture of one of the woofers. I can't see anything weird. But as I said before, if I press on the cone I hear a scraping sound. Should I actually see something broken? Or is it inside the cone?



                                PS: I know now why these speakers are so heavy. These are heavy drivers! Even the metal ring on the outside weighs quite a bit!

                                Comment

                                • hifiguymi
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Mar 2007
                                  • 1532

                                  #17
                                  The scraping sound is the voice coil inside the magnetic gap. You can't see it by looking at it like that.

                                  Eric

                                  Comment

                                  • artv4
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Jun 2007
                                    • 277

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by hifiguymi
                                    The scraping sound is the voice coil inside the magnetic gap. You can't see it by looking at it like that.

                                    Eric
                                    i agree
                                    GO Revel!!!!! (powered by ;x( Anthem)

                                    Comment

                                    • ZX10 Guy
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Mar 2005
                                      • 198

                                      #19
                                      The voice coil everyone is talking about is in the center of that big black ring which is the speaker magnet. The only way you'll be able to see anything is to disassemble the speaker.

                                      Based on what you've said, there's no doubt the driver is blown/shot. Your only options are to have the driver rebuilt or to replace it altogether.

                                      As an aside, I had a similar incident a long long time ago. I was still staying with my parents after college. I had Mirage M490 speakers then (still do.) My mother didn't realize I had a set of headphones plugged into the preamp. She cranked up the volume and heard sound out of the headphones which she thought was the speakers. She then realized the headphones were plugged in and yanked out the plug. Well, you can guess what happened next. The speakers were being driven by two Carver TFM-25s in bridged mono. They've been bench tested at about 700W RMS in mono mode. To say the woofers were toast was an understatement. The power spike was so severe, the woofer cone had separated from the voice coil.

                                      Comment

                                      • windshear
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Dec 2004
                                        • 243

                                        #20
                                        The scratching sound doesnt always mean its blown. What can also happen is over time the spider at the back collapses and with gravity it sags. If you flip the driver around you can prolong its use , but thats not the ideal solution for the type and quality of speaker. I had to replace a bass driver on my old DM640i for that reason. I also had to replace a driver on my Dm604S3 with a rattling sound. Luckily it was still under warrenty. We surmised that an epoxy bead from the dust cap had come loose and was now rattling inside. Good luck with your replacements.

                                        Comment

                                        • SoundEngine355
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Feb 2008
                                          • 313

                                          #21
                                          I would recommend running some tests.

                                          Compare each of the 3 drivers to the 1 that is not making the "scraping" sound. Just connect 1 at a time and only use the woofer inputs (Disable the tweeter/midrange) and listen for yourself.

                                          Use the same internal connectors for each test, to rule out a damaged crossover. I would then test the tweeter/midrange.

                                          Having done a number of tests on my 800D while looking at crossover upgrades and internal wiring, it’s easy to pick if the drivers are damaged if you listen to them individually.

                                          When I owned the 803D I did have to replace a crossover as when I was wiring up a DIY amplifier I had a wire crossed and caused a very load pop, all the drivers were fine, but a capacitor need replacing.
                                          Hope this helps
                                          SoundEngine355

                                          -------------------
                                          [Music] B&W 800D | Classe CDP202 +M400s | Velodyne DD15

                                          Comment

                                          • Glen B
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Jul 2004
                                            • 1106

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by tmt
                                            when I press slightly on the woofer I now hear a scraping sound. So something is now touching the paper cone.
                                            Is there any way to check some stuff myself before I go to a shop to ask for repairs?
                                            I concur with others that what you're hearing is the voice coil rubbing inside the magnetic gap. When you had your "incident", the cone/spider/voice coil assembly was forced out of alignment from being overdriven beyond the speaker's maximum excursion limits. IMO, there is nothing you can do but have the woofers replaced. If you attempt to continue using them as is, the insulating coating on the voice coil wire will abrade from rubbing against the magnetic pole piece, and eventually short out the wire turns.



                                            Comment

                                            • tmt
                                              Member
                                              • Jan 2005
                                              • 88

                                              #23
                                              well, it's been a while, but I got the speakers fixed again.
                                              I ordered 3 new drivers from B&W Belgium a week ago without any problem. They were delivered at the dealer within a few days, so very quick service. I installed them myself and everything sounds again like it used to :T
                                              The ony thing that got me a bit baffeled is the date on the sticker that's on the replacement drivers: oktober 2009. It couldn't be the manufacturing date, because I have the old N802, not the 802D. I can't believe they still make those drivers nowadays :E .
                                              The old ones were manufactured in 2004.

                                              PS: Thanks for all the helpfull replies.

                                              Comment

                                              • timjclark
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Apr 2009
                                                • 104

                                                #24
                                                I'm glad to hear that your 802s are back up and running! Good job with the DIY fix!
                                                -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                                                -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                                                -Rotel: RSP-1069
                                                -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                                                Office system:
                                                -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                                                -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                                                Comment

                                                • IceG
                                                  Junior Member
                                                  • Dec 2008
                                                  • 29

                                                  #25
                                                  Nothing to stop B&W continuing to produce drivers for speakers that are no longer in production - seems like a good idea, especially if people have unfortunate "creative moments". Car manufacturers have to do the same thing.

                                                  Comment

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