Placement advice or comments

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  • sunshdw
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 92

    Placement advice or comments

    Here's the way my room is set up:


    I set it up based on the way I was taught but I'm looking for any suggestions to help out. One of the main things I've been noticing is the lack of depth in the sound stage. I have a great L to R sound stage but it seems like its 2D instead of 3D. My MSPaint skills suck so dont bag the lame illistration you get the idea.

    I've had this set up on the short wall on the right but the left speaker sounded horrible due to it sitting in the corner. Putting it how it is now has made worlds of a difference but I think it can get better.

    Here's my B&W/Rotel set up:
    RLC 1040
    RC 1082
    RCD 1072
    RB 1080
    B&W 683s
    Behinger DEQ2496
    PSAudio DAC
    Denon DVD3910 SACD
    Integra CDC3.4 (Wife's)
    SOTA Saphire TT modded
    Transparent Super interconnects and speaker cable
    Runco CX40HD
    Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

    "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"
  • aarsoe
    Senior Member
    • May 2004
    • 795

    #2
    Hi

    Would recommend to go to this page and do a basic room calculation.


    Otherwise my experience is that the weakest link is usually the preamp. In fact more so than the amp, as my observation is that the preamp can kill all the depth.

    Comment

    • htsteve
      Super Senior Member
      • Sep 2004
      • 1216

      #3
      sunshdw,

      A few thoughts come to mind, and are easy to do.

      First, have you spiked your speakers. Vibration control is a very nice tweak.

      Secondly, My main speakers are equal distance on all three parts of the triangle. For you, I would suggest 8 feet apart, as well as 8 feet to the listening area. That should not be a large move, but tying it out like this should improve it a bit.

      Finally, what is on the floor between you and the speakers. If it is a hard surface, I would suggest an area rug. This also has high WAF.


      Hope this helps.

      Comment

      • MikeFL52
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2007
        • 118

        #4
        Also try toeing the speakers to about 2 ft behind your listening point.

        Comment

        • sunshdw
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 92

          #5
          Originally posted by htsteve
          sunshdw,

          A few thoughts come to mind, and are easy to do.

          First, have you spiked your speakers. Vibration control is a very nice tweak.

          Secondly, My main speakers are equal distance on all three parts of the triangle. For you, I would suggest 8 feet apart, as well as 8 feet to the listening area. That should not be a large move, but tying it out like this should improve it a bit.

          Finally, what is on the floor between you and the speakers. If it is a hard surface, I would suggest an area rug. This also has high WAF.


          Hope this helps.
          Yes they are on the supplied plinths and spiked. Subwoofer and the equiptment rack are as well.

          That I can try

          THe whole room is carpet and there is a coffee table in between the speakers and the couch
          Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

          "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

          Comment

          • sunshdw
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 92

            #6
            Originally posted by MikeFL52
            Also try toeing the speakers to about 2 ft behind your listening point.
            I started with the speakers pointing directly to the listen area and then started toeing them out until I liked it which I'm close to 20" behind my head
            Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

            "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

            Comment

            • hifiguymi
              Super Senior Member
              • Mar 2007
              • 1532

              #7
              Having a TV in between the speakers has been a problem with image depth in a lot of systems I've done. It can be tough to work around. How big is your TV and can you easily remove it for a couple of hours for some listening? To really get good image depth with a TV, I've had to move speakers well into the room which isn't an option most of the time.

              Eric

              Comment

              • sunshdw
                Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 92

                #8
                Here's a picture of the room standing just in front of the hallway:

                Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

                "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

                Comment

                • sunshdw
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 92

                  #9
                  Originally posted by hifiguymi
                  Having a TV in between the speakers has been a problem with image depth in a lot of systems I've done. It can be tough to work around. How big is your TV and can you easily remove it for a couple of hours for some listening? To really get good image depth with a TV, I've had to move speakers well into the room which isn't an option most of the time.

                  Eric
                  I will give that a shot. Perhaps making the triangle equal and moving the TV will help my problem. I'll move some stuff around tonight and try it.
                  Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

                  "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

                  Comment

                  • emig5m
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2008
                    • 646

                    #10
                    I vote for some real thick and heavy curtains that fall right to the floor over the windows.

                    Comment

                    • jbreezy5
                      Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 59

                      #11
                      Nice looking room/system.

                      -JBreezy-

                      Comment

                      • Glenee
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2006
                        • 253

                        #12
                        Some people trying to get what you want have tilted the speakers back ever so slightly. Try about 1/8 to 1/4 inch spacer under the front feet. Sometime when you toe in too much you get what you speak of. Mine are crossing about 3 feet behind my head at my listening position. Place a piece of tape on the floor to mark the toe in and experiment with different toe In. A difference of only 1/2 inch can make a BIG difference. Mine are tilted back or raised 1/16 of a inch in the front.

                        Comment

                        • audioqueso
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Nov 2004
                          • 1930

                          #13
                          Originally posted by aarsoe
                          Otherwise my experience is that the weakest link is usually the preamp. In fact more so than the amp, as my observation is that the preamp can kill all the depth.
                          +1

                          Originally posted by sunshdw
                          ...and there is a coffee table in between the speakers and the couch
                          This will kill your 3D soundstage as well.
                          B&W 804S/Velodyne SPL-1000R/Anthem MRX720

                          Comment

                          • Horacio
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2005
                            • 142

                            #14
                            To add on what already has been said, which is all good advice, I would keep first reflection points in mind. I believe this is waht Audioqueso referred to with his comment about the coffee table. Try removing it from the floor first reflection point and see if it makes a difference.

                            How high is your ceiling? That's another first reflection point.

                            Your left and right 1st refl points seem rathe far and maybe aren't having a large impact.
                            The points behind your speakers, however, seem quite close. Is it a wall behind the speakers, or a window? Absorbing panels in that location should help a lot.

                            To test if this is it you might want to make a simple trial: get the table out of the floor first refl points and put pillows behind the speakers up to the tweeters height. White pillows aren't as effective, you'll sense if they made a difference. If so, you might want to look into panels.

                            This is also (I believe) what Hifiguymi was taliking about with his comment about the TV in between being an issue. The TV reflects a lot of sound. Taking it out temporarily should also aid in the test.

                            I hope it helps.

                            Comment

                            • sunshdw
                              Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 92

                              #15
                              I very much appreciate all of your well thought out comments and advice. So I think this weekend I have some work to do. For starters I'm going to pull the TV out and the coffee table and try that. I will then make the triangle even distances and throw a thick blanket over the window.

                              more to come soon......
                              Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

                              "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

                              Comment

                              • sunshdw
                                Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 92

                                #16
                                Update:

                                Well on my day off yesterday I wanted to try a few things. One of the first things I started on was the speakers. I was able to move them out but only to 8'3" where as to the couch is like 8'6". I pulled them forward about 3" into the room to help equal out the triangle. I then reset toe to 24" behind my head (which was interesting trying to guess my head position). I pulled my TV out and tacked up a thick bed comforter over the window (thankfully wife wasn't home or I wouldn't be here today ) and turned off any form of noise in the house.

                                WOW WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!!! Sound stage is WAY more focused and wider. I played a couple classical pieces to see what the depth did, and it seemed to help. I honestly think I've reached the limits of the 683's sonic ability. However, they sound much much better. It sounded better playing vinyl than on CD too.......

                                Thanks to all the suggestions!! :T
                                Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

                                "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

                                Comment

                                • dmccombs
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Sep 2006
                                  • 306

                                  #17
                                  Sunsdw,

                                  I have a room similar to yours. I found that by moving the speakers forward, so there is some room between the rear of your speakers and the plane that the TV is on, will greatly improve your soundstage. You got some improvement by pulling them forward 3". I suggest pulling them forward even more. You may end up pushing the couches back a bit to compensate, but you need some open space behind the speakers and away from the TV.

                                  The TV and windows are probably making the upper mids sound smeared/glary/bright. I bought some GIK accoustic panels to put in front of my big screen TV when I do critical listening. IT looks like even one 2'x4' panel would help you.

                                  As someone else mentioned, some heavy curtains in front of the windows will help things.

                                  Comment

                                  • emig5m
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Aug 2008
                                    • 646

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by sunshdw
                                    Update:

                                    Well on my day off yesterday I wanted to try a few things. One of the first things I started on was the speakers. I was able to move them out but only to 8'3" where as to the couch is like 8'6". I pulled them forward about 3" into the room to help equal out the triangle. I then reset toe to 24" behind my head (which was interesting trying to guess my head position). I pulled my TV out and tacked up a thick bed comforter over the window (thankfully wife wasn't home or I wouldn't be here today ) and turned off any form of noise in the house.

                                    WOW WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!!! Sound stage is WAY more focused and wider. I played a couple classical pieces to see what the depth did, and it seemed to help. I honestly think I've reached the limits of the 683's sonic ability. However, they sound much much better. It sounded better playing vinyl than on CD too.......

                                    Thanks to all the suggestions!! :T
                                    It's amazing in the difference the little fine tweaks make. When I recently re-arranged my room I noticed the vocals where really boxy sounding. I was feeling stressed that I spent the time moving everything around and my sound went downhill. It was a bare wall directly behind my listening position. All I did was throw up a nice looking decorative carpet I bought at Walmart and that fixed the problem. Very easy, cheap, and effective.

                                    It makes me wonder if 1OldGuy (along with a few others if you sift though the forum) is disappointed in his 800 series because they where held back by setup.... Yea, it sucks you can't just buy good stuff and you automatically have great sound and still have work so hard with setup/tuning/tweaking to hear the system for what it actually is.

                                    Comment

                                    • sunshdw
                                      Member
                                      • Sep 2008
                                      • 92

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by dmccombs
                                      Sunsdw,

                                      I have a room similar to yours. I found that by moving the speakers forward, so there is some room between the rear of your speakers and the plane that the TV is on, will greatly improve your soundstage. You got some improvement by pulling them forward 3". I suggest pulling them forward even more. You may end up pushing the couches back a bit to compensate, but you need some open space behind the speakers and away from the TV.

                                      The TV and windows are probably making the upper mids sound smeared/glary/bright. I bought some GIK accoustic panels to put in front of my big screen TV when I do critical listening. IT looks like even one 2'x4' panel would help you.

                                      As someone else mentioned, some heavy curtains in front of the windows will help things.
                                      I wished I could pull them out more but then they would get in the way. At this point there isn't much room inbetween the couch, coffee table and the speakers. As far as the heavy curtains you're right and that will be addressed very soon.
                                      Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

                                      "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

                                      Comment

                                      • sunshdw
                                        Member
                                        • Sep 2008
                                        • 92

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by emig5m
                                        It's amazing in the difference the little fine tweaks make. When I recently re-arranged my room I noticed the vocals where really boxy sounding. I was feeling stressed that I spent the time moving everything around and my sound went downhill. It was a bare wall directly behind my listening position. All I did was throw up a nice looking decorative carpet I bought at Walmart and that fixed the problem. Very easy, cheap, and effective.

                                        It makes me wonder if 1OldGuy (along with a few others if you sift though the forum) is disappointed in his 800 series because they where held back by setup.... Yea, it sucks you can't just buy good stuff and you automatically have great sound and still have work so hard with setup/tuning/tweaking to hear the system for what it actually is.
                                        Very good point about the blank wall behind your seating area. Part of my hallway wall is behind my listening area....hmm perhaps I should address that as well.
                                        Disappointed with 800series stuff?? Is there such a thing??
                                        Magnepan,ARC,VTL,Transparent Audio ;x(

                                        "The term "audiophile" means essentially nothing -- it's a self-anointed status that entails no credentials, qualifications or certifications. It means "hobbyist," nothing more, and anyone can lay claim to it. Ironically, I've come to recognize that "audiophiles" represent a group that will believe almost anything"

                                        Comment

                                        • dknightd
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Mar 2006
                                          • 621

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by sunshdw
                                          WOW WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!!!
                                          so now you have to figure out how much was due to moving the speakers a little, and how much was due to moving the TV and covering the window.

                                          Comment

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