Peerless 10" CSX

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  • cogs
    Junior Member
    • Mar 2003
    • 4

    Peerless 10" CSX

    Anyone use this driver? Looks like it might be a good bet for a 2-way with the BG planars. Goes pretty low, and has smooth response to 1k, unlike most subs. Xmax is respectable (9mm), but not like the Dayton 10", though it costs half as much.

    What do you experts think of a dipole line array with 6 of these and a RD75 per side?

    - John
  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    #2
    All of the CSX series drivers are very good value and good performers, IMO. It comes down to what do you want, and how to optimize it. I'm assuming since you're looking at the 10's, you want to develop a line array that allows you to get by without a sub.

    The first cone or surround mode in the 8" and 10" don't occur until around 600 Hz, which is pretty reasonable for a poly sandwich cone driver- up till then, they're quite flat, and T/S parameters look good for a nice ported tuning, or sealed box with higher Fs.

    But that brings up the question, do you have a crossover frequency in mind for working with the RD75's? Or what kind of max SPL's from the RD75's and LF extenion from teh 10's you want? Have you taken a stab at modeling the Peerless 10's in Unibox, in ported or sealed configurations?

    ThomasW and I are kind of the RD mavericks- I talked him into mating them with the Acoustats, with a 600 Hz crossover, and they really take off in that configuration compared with trying to run them down to 300 Hz or so with dynamic drivers. Well, anyway, that's our opinion. So the line array I'm building will have a similar crossover frequency, with 6-1/2" woofers, and long throw 12" woofer on each side (brought in at 75 Hz).

    I think getting the most out of the RD's requires an understanding of their performance limitations with regards to diaphragm travel, and not expecting TOO much out of them in the lower midrange. Then, they really have a much greater sense of ease, in our opinion.

    While you'll find lots of folks who'll contradict us, and recommend lower crossover frequencies, I haven't seen that many of them have actually tried them out with a good cone line array and a higher frequency. Or with a large planar like the Acoustat's. Obviously, DPL12's aren't going to work up to 600 Hz. :W

    Since you should have some clean overlap region in the crossover transistion band, even the Peerless 10's or 8's should probably be crossed over no higher than 450-500 Hz. If that fits in with your plans, then they could work out fine for you. If you're not convinced about what the optimum crossover frequency may be for you, a good way to experiment is with an active crossover, and trying different frequencies.

    In your shoes, I might be tempted to look at the 7" CSX series; not as much Xmax, of course, but very smooth on the top; would crossover OK around 600 Hz. But then, if you've read me other posts, you know that I fancy the MCM carbon fiber 6-1/2", which is half the cost of the Peerless 7". I'm often accused of having champagne tastes, but if I can find it on a beer budget, believe me I'll do so!

    Good luck with your project and keep us informed of how it develops.

    Best regards,

    Jon




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    Comment

    • cogs
      Junior Member
      • Mar 2003
      • 4

      #3
      Thanks for the thorough reply.

      Since my highest priority is quality midrange and some kind of "line-ish" design, I'm basicly set on using dipole BG's. Just about everything else is up in the air, including the length of the planar. I'm not designing for crazy SPLs, but I want serious low bass. I'm planning on using a pro active x-over, so I'll play with where it goes. I totally agree with you about not pushing these drivers too low.

      Do you think that 6 10-inchers per side could get into the 20s in a folded dipole config (vertical supports for the panel will extend the front-back distance on either side of the backs of the woofers) with EQ? I'm thinking it won't. If not, I'll either switch to the RD-50's and build a 3-way design like yours, or I'll build some 6' tall boxes for the woofers.

      What's the status of your project? Have you listened to the MCM drivers? Definitely look interesting. Are you planning on a full dipole setup?

      - John

      Comment

      • Victor
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2002
        • 338

        #4
        cogs,

        I guess I can jump in here and share my experiences with the midrange-woofer-RD-75 integration. I decided to use the expensive Scan Speak 25W8656 10-inch drivers for a midrange. The combination of very low distortion and linearity up to nearly 600 Hz attracted me to 25W8656. However they are not cheap at $110US.

        Looking at the measurements this driver is extremely well-behaved and crossing it to RD-75 at 400-450 Hz should not be a problem. For the woofers I am using a stacked Phoenix woofer with 4 Peerless 12-inch drivers per side. I ended up positioning the midrange baffle with 4 25W8656 drivers on top of the stacked woofer cabinets and RD-75 is housed in its own wing-shaped baffle. This way both woofer-midrange tower and the RD-75 baffle have the same 76.5 inches height and can be positioned closed to each other, with the distance between the centers of the midrange driver to the center of the RD-75 can be at most 14 Inches.

        I recently experimentally discovered that there is a significant delay of 1.45 mS between the woofers and the midrange. So I would have to build a delay line to account for that. Thankfully a first order delay-line will do given that woofer-midrange crossover point is 70 Hz. With this in mind there will certainly be a delay between the RD-57 and the midrange. In my case I can move the RD-75 baffle relative to the woofer-midrange tower. All in all the entire system is dipole and it gets down to 20 Hz while still loud enough.

        Well, my project is nearly done, as I am finishing up the midrange baffle now while also working on the crossover. I am building my own active circuit. Although I know there are many attractive options to do this with the off-the shelf digital boxes. There is one box that looks quite interesting and it is relatively cheap, - look at the Behringer DCX2496. It seems to do everything you need for a 3-way system for $425US; - the specs seem to be fine with at least 16-bits S/N ratio at low levels rising to 18-bits at 0 dB. You really can’t expect better then that. Although the best choice, I think, might be Rane product, - the RMP26Z.

        Victor

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15259

          #5
          Hi John,

          Because of my back problems prior to Xmas and surgery in early February, any "heavy" speaker work as been on hold- I'll be released for moderate activity if my next checkup with the surgeon goes as expected in April.

          My RD and line array system as currently planned is a monopole system- just to take the road less traveled, and to get by with 8 - 6-1/2 on each side. A dipole system to work down to a 75 Hz crossover in the bass would need about twice the number of drivers of that size, or need to move up to 8" or 10" drivers as you're contemplating. Also, I'm just using RD50's- this is a "baby" system, with a passive crossover planned between the RD and sixes, and an active to the woofer units. :W

          Though the Peerless units have pretty decent Xmax considering how high they go, they're not likely to be candidates for significant spl at 20 Hz in a folded dipole, certainly not with just six per side! Compare how they would do in swept volume (Sd times Xmax) with something like the DPL12, where dipole arrangement suggest four per side (based on required increase in volume displacement for low frequencies with a dipole. Four DPL12's would allow you to reach mid 20's with the same levels that a single DPL 12 in a sealed box can do- note that the BPD1203's I'm using in a sealed box have almost twice the Xmax of the DPL 12's.

          Now, here's a thought for you, though not for those without deep pockets...





          Aurasound NS10-513

          This driver uses their patented NRT underhung magnetic structure- inherently self shielding; with a two inch diameter, four layer voice coil and copper inductance sleeve (lowers VC inductance), and a first cone mode above 1 kHz. Also features flat spider with VC leads woven into the spider. Xmax is about 16 mm, max excursion about 1.5" p-p.

          What the deal? Well, it's lower distortion than many other drivers with similar excursion, the frequency response extends higher (due to cone and inductance sleeve), and the upper end frequency response is flatter- you could probably get pretty clean mids up to 600 Hz, as well as some rather good bottom end. What I couldn't say for sure is whether it would have low rear side noise (like the DPL 12) for a dipole, and the low Q (optimum for a ported box) would require a little more equalization for the LF dipole compensation.

          If I was to try to do a two way dipole line array with RD50's, and no additional sub, this would probably be the way to go- other than price. There's a 12" version of this, also. Maybe one could do a tapered dipole line array, with four 10's in the center going up to 600 Hz, and a twelve top and bottom rolled off a little lower (due to cone issues). Better have made some money during the dot com bomb, though, because these puppies aren't cheap. But then, combining a lower cost driver with better midrange, and crossing over to a multiple driver dipole sub array isn't cheap either.

          Talk is cheap, but these parts aren't. $225 list for the 10", $255 for the 12".

          Best regards,

          Jon




          Earth First!
          _______________________________
          We'll screw up the other planets later....
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
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          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • Hank
            Super Senior Member
            • Jul 2002
            • 1345

            #6
            Here's some swept volume for cheap:

            MCM #55-2421 8" with 16mm Xmax $23.75 each for 10+
            How do the numbers look for an array?

            Comment

            • sfdoddsy
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2000
              • 496

              #7
              Hmm. An 8 inch version of that Aurasound might make a dandy mid driver for a dipole, especially a single mid design like my center. I couldn't find any mention of one though.

              Steve




              Steve's DIY Dipoles
              Steve's OB Journey

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15259

                #8
                Yes, this is probably one of the "chunkiest" looking 8" drivers I've seen; if I wanted to make a baby sub for a computer system, it would probably be high on the list.

                From a construction viewpoint, the only thing I'd fault right off the bat is the spider design; this type of spider suspension (common on older speakers), can be a contributor towards oil canning, particularly if steps haven't been taken to make the flux distribution in the gap symetrical for excursion in both directions.

                The only other question would be what the response curve or impedance looks like- wonder where the cone modes are? And VC inductance? Oh, there it is... 2.7 mH. That's about the same as an HE15 Stryke driver!

                With this high an Xmax, without a copper sleeve, voice coil inductance is unusually pretty high, which also limits midrange performance.

                Still, even if you limited the drive or excursion to half or 2/3 of the rated Xmax, in order to stay out of any problem areas, it coudl move a lot of air...


                -Jon




                Earth First!
                _______________________________
                We'll screw up the other planets later....
                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
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                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • Hank
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 1345

                  #9
                  Jon, I knew you'd love it BTW, Le is 2.49, not 2.7. I have the TB version of this (they are a bit different) and for a single-driver box application in a small box, it needs to be ported, or for a decent size box, passive radiatored.
                  Hey, look at the cost delta - it's affordable, not $200+. I'm just throwing in an possibility to avoid doing woofers. An RD with a stack of 8's that could go down to the 30's, then do a separate, optimally-located subwoofer for pipe organ and HT.

                  Comment

                  • cogs
                    Junior Member
                    • Mar 2003
                    • 4

                    #10
                    I think that using a pro digital x-over would really benefit this project (delays, various slopes, parametric eq). I have heard of some peoblems with using them for dipole eq, because it requires so much gain, so that resolution is lost in other parts of the spectrum. One can always put in a cheap preamp between the x-over and the bass amp (it's just the bass...). For an x-over under $1000, I think the Rane 26z is the way to go. It's got "analog" attenuators in the ins and outs, has a digital in, and the software is very flexible and user friendly. Download it; it's fun to play around with. I just wish it showed the phase changes for the crossovers like it does for the eq. It's about $800 where I've looked.

                    That Aurasound woofer looks great. 4 per side in a monopole config I'm sure would be killer. They're not THAT pricy if they really use the potential of the technologies they employ (underhung motor, rare-earth magnets, alu cones). Compare their price to that of an Audio Technology 12".

                    You guys have listened to various BG planar setups, and it there really a minimum listening distance? I've got a 15'*23' room with a tall ceiling, and think the system's best sounding along the long wall (fewer side reflections), so the listening distance is around 10' max. Is this too short for a RD75? A RD50 probably fits the room better (bass under the planar), but I love the concept of the speaker radiating from the floor to above my standing height.

                    - John

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15259

                      #11
                      The HF balance isn't quite right running full range if you're too close. That's why I chose the RD50's for my project. (Even a pair of those is pretty dang heavy and large!). In ThomasW's setup, he's crossed over to a ribbon tweeter line array that's almost as tall, and he has more control over the balance.

                      If you consistently listen at a closer distance, then maybe you can take care of the balance issues with a little EQ. Otherwise, if you're significantly closer than their recommendation, they're going to be a bit soft in the top.

                      The Rane does look like an interesting peice- the software package does look rather cool.



                      The only real "quirk" which is more a function of it's intended market (which isn't "us"), is the Euroblock connectors for logic and signal I/O.



                      Where do I get Cardas cables for that? :W

                      A lot of interesting reading and references on their site- definitely Pro Audio- brings back memories.

                      -Jon




                      Earth First!
                      _______________________________
                      We'll screw up the other planets later....
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
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                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
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                      In Development...
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                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • cogs
                        Junior Member
                        • Mar 2003
                        • 4

                        #12
                        Originally posted by jonmarsh
                        The HF balance isn't quite right running full range if you're too close.
                        I'm guessing this is because of a falling frequency response of the drivers. The designers probably assumed the listener would be in the nearfield for the high frequencies covered by the driver and in the far field for the lower ones. Using an equation in the Linus Array paper, I found that the nearfield/farfield transition for the 75" planar is at 650Hz and 1350Hz for the 50" one. Will gaining an extra octave of nearfied make a significant difference?

                        On a totally different note, has anyone played with the RD28? Used with a tweeter, its length keeps it in the farfield for its entire range. Let's say we had a design like this (all dipole, except maybe tweeter):
                        -RD28
                        -a single Ribbon/planar tweeter next to it (Hi-Vi?)
                        -4 8" midwoofers on the other side of the BG (CSX? Hi-Vi?)
                        -all this on top of an H-baffle dipole woofer (Stryke AV15?)

                        Definitely a dispersion-limited design. Line sounces limiting the vertical dispersion and dipole effects limiting the horizontal. BG planar magic with point-source-quality imaging? Now will there be serious comb-filter effects because of the drivers being next to each other? Given my experience with crossover design, I'd definitely have to tackle a 4-way with a digital active one, 2 of the new Behringer ones could do the job.

                        - John

                        Comment

                        • Hank
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 1345

                          #13
                          John, are you talking about putting the single tweeter in the middle, with two woofs above and 2 woofs below it? Why not put the tweeter above the RD28? This all-dipole sounds interesting. I think Jon and Thomas would come back with the vertical *sweet spot* of the 28" ribbon would be too narrow and maybe an spl match with the woofs would be an issue. Also, I think Jon is sticking with a monopole implementation because of the placement requirements with a dipole (e.g. several feet away from a wall behind them), which, with the old W.A.F., would make dipoles a speaker with less appeal than a monopole. Jon, if I'm making a false assumption, please correct me.

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15259

                            #14
                            Dipole versus monopole, both need or benefit "breathing room" from the walls, but there's more flexibility for locating the monopole closer if necessary, at least if you design it for the location you want, re baffle step and boundary interaction.

                            My decision to go monopole was based a lot on dynamic range and system complexity and size- I wanted lots of dynamic range (us live musicians tend to be that way, don't we Hank? and though the RD crossed over as planned would be fine in dipole mode, to get the extension and power handling I wanted in the midbass for the line array would have dictated using at least twice the number of drivers, and a much more complex crossover/equalizer arrangement. It would also have a much larger physical footprint. My X1 klones are at the upper limit of what I would want to tolerate for a main system- these will be about the same, but should have some advantages in "integration" from the midbass on up.

                            With my monopole setup, I'll have a "relatively simple" passive midrange crossover, and I'll be able to use my Sumo Delilah II crossover at 75 Hz, without any appreciable tweaks, other than a small LF line Eq for the bass module, which can be done passively. For a dipole arrangement down to 75 Hz, things would have been much more complicated. Remember, this is my take on a high bang for the buck line array system (using a "cheap" RD driver, "cheap" 6-1/2's, and NOS "cheap" Blueprint 12's), not the ultimate home dipole array! For that, I'm going to need to knock over a local bank, and stock up on Aurasound 12's. :W

                            -Jon




                            Earth First!
                            _______________________________
                            We'll screw up the other planets later....
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
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                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • Hank
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Jul 2002
                              • 1345

                              #15
                              Jon, yes, my bad - I was thinking SPL but didn't mention that another reason for monopole is the increased # of mid-woofs, enclosure size and cost for dipole. My expectation would be that this system will sound *better*/more accurate/realistic/whatever, than any pistonic driver implementation of the same cost. For your future all-dipole ultimate system, be sure to knock over a large bank so there's enough cash for me too

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15259

                                #16
                                Will do, Hank!




                                Earth First!
                                _______________________________
                                We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
                                M8ta
                                Modula Neo DCC
                                Modula MT XE
                                Modula Xtreme
                                Isiris
                                Wavecor Ardent

                                SMJ
                                Minerva Monitor
                                Calliope
                                Ardent D

                                In Development...
                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                Obi-Wan
                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                Modula PWB
                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                Natalie P Ultra
                                Natalie P Supreme
                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

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