ribbon tweeters

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  • Andrew Pratt
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 16507

    ribbon tweeters

    Thomas/Jon et al. why don't we see you guys using ribbon tweeters more often in your designs? I saw this one the other day and wondered what it would sound like compared to my XT25.




  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10934

    #2
    Andrew

    I think we have covered this before.

    Leaf/ribbon/planar tweeters have no vertical dispersion. The sweet spot is basically only as tall as the radiating element is high. So if you don't mind listening with your head in a vice they're great. But if you want vertical dispersion they must be used in a line array




    theAudioWorx
    Klone-Audio

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

    Comment

    • Dennis H
      Ultra Senior Member
      • Aug 2002
      • 3791

      #3
      I've been hearing good things about those "G" speakers. Latest effort from the Raven designer, built in China. Danny R. has been using them and says he likes them better than the Ravens because they are 8 ohms, shielded and can handle more power.

      E-Speakers version


      Chinese manufacturer


      The model numbers are a bit confusing:
      G1 = R3
      G2 = R1
      G3 = R2

      Comment

      • Dennis H
        Ultra Senior Member
        • Aug 2002
        • 3791

        #4
        The vertical dispersion doesn't look that bad for the G2.



        Comment

        • Hank
          Super Senior Member
          • Jul 2002
          • 1345

          #5
          Dennis, after all the warnings about *no vertical dispersion* I am frankly surprised at the graph.
          BUT, look at the price of those puppies! 8O 2/3 to 3/4 the price of a B-G RD50! My view of DIY is using reasonably priced drivers to get great sound and value (personal opinion only).

          Comment

          • Dennis H
            Ultra Senior Member
            • Aug 2002
            • 3791

            #6
            Hi Hank,

            The G2 is only about 2" long so the vertical dispersion is about like the horizontal dispersion of an RD. Seems like, with ribbons, you have to go really short or really long (line array). The in between lengths are the ones that change sound when you stand up.

            About the price, yeah they are spendy. Some people consider the Raven/G series among the best tweeters in the world, just as some consider the RDs among the best midranges in the world. Both are really expensive. Many people would balk at spending $400+ for a midrange, or $200+ for a tweeter, or $500 for a Tumult woofer, and I can certainly understand that point of view. The way I see it, building yourself lets you spend more on the drivers than you could if you had to pay the 5 to 10 times markup of commercial designs so it's about getting the best sound you can for whatever your budget is.

            Comment

            • Hank
              Super Senior Member
              • Jul 2002
              • 1345

              #7
              I see your points and a DIY-er can certainly buy expensive drivers and end up with a great system, but I think the Grand Poobahs and others have shown that you can use moderate-priced drivers and with good design, have sound that rivals the expensive drivers/commercial high-end speakers.

              About the B-G ribbons - I consider them a midrange/tweeter driver, as some others do. There is debate as to whether a male over the age of 30 can actually hear above 15 or 16 kHz, and since I'm over 50, I probably can't for sure. I think Jon may consider adding a supertweeter to the line source he's planning, but I'm not sure.

              Comment

              • Brian Bunge
                Super Senior Member
                • Nov 2001
                • 1389

                #8
                Hank,

                You heard those tweeters when I was in Austin. I don't know if you remember what they sounded like though.

                Brian

                Comment

                • Jack Gilvey
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2001
                  • 510

                  #9
                  Fwiw, the Raven R-1 is on sale at Parts Express for $189. At that price even Hank might splurge on a dozen or so for an array. Click the Parts Express ad at the top of the page, it's the Deal-of-the-Day.

                  "Hurry, This Deal Expires 02/17/03 At 6:00 PM!"

                  Comment

                  • Hank
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 1345

                    #10
                    Brian, yes, I did listen to them in Austin and do remember that they sounded great, but were NOT worth the price delta with a top-quality dome tweet (at least for me at this point). BTW, have you heard the Seas Millenium tweet?

                    Jack, I like your humor. Yes, a dozen Ravens at $189 each - that's only $2,268. Oh, was that a dozen per side? Then $4,536. That's almost as much as your bi-weekly take-home pay, correct? h:

                    Comment

                    • Jack Gilvey
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2001
                      • 510

                      #11
                      Of course. In fact, this week I may upgrade my 10-year-old 25" Magnavox and JBL NSP-1 setup with all the cash just laying around.

                      Comment

                      • ThomasW
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 10934

                        #12
                        The Raven or one of it's newer variants are amazing tweeters. They without doubt define 'state-of-the-art' for high frequency reproduction. This has been true of ribbon tweeters since they were invented, and that was quite sometime ago.

                        But there are 'off-axis' FR issues that must be understood and lived with. They don't/can't have the dispersion of a dome.

                        But if one has the $$$$, and the ability to stay in a relatively 'fixed' listening position they are well worth owning.




                        theAudioWorx
                        Klone-Audio

                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15259

                          #13
                          OK, Hank, here's my concept: The ultimate, wretched excess near field monitor for your computer system. It requires a computer table like mine, which has these kind of platform like dealiwops on the side, which the computer speakers sit on (flanking the monitor). My monitor is currently a flatscreen LCD, so magnetic field and shielding is a none issue.

                          Basic nearfield two way: Seas W18 7" magnesium aluminum cone midwoofer, crossed to either an ESG-3 or Raven 2 at about 2 kHz, fairly high slope crossover, with the usual notch on the Seas peak.

                          Cabinet designed so that center of ribbon is at center of ear level for someone seated and nominally 6' tall, understanding that my office chair is one of those pneumatic height adjustable with the lever to release pressure and lower the seat; maybe setup for 6" with 2-3 inches of height reduction on chair.

                          Then, to get a little "omph" in the bottom end, we either cheeze out and get one of the nice little pre-built PE sub cabinet/10" subwoofer with plate amp kits (about $399 altogether, if memory serves me correct), or if we want to go "hardball", take one of my vintage NOS Blueprint 1203's (or the one's available from the liquidators in Nevada) and put them in a teeny box with inch thick walls and drive em' with a Crown K series amp for the bottom end.

                          Unreal II and NeverWinter Nights should sound lovely.... as well as my ripped CD wave files. (just say NO to MP3's).

                          Of course, as you'll certainly point out,

                          THE PARTS WOULD COST MORE THAN MY MODULA 4 LINE ARRAY PROJECT WITH THE RD50's!!!!! 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

                          But, then, the line arrays wouldn't fit on the computer table, would they? Trade offs, trade offs.... :roll:


                          Well, you know, now that I think about it, maybe I can get by with those AR Powered Partner 570 speakers (5" woofer, dome tweeter, 35 watts RMS, aluminum cases) a little while longer. :W

                          -Jon




                          Earth First!
                          _______________________________
                          We'll screw up the other planets later....
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                          Obi-Wan
                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                          Modula PWB
                          Calliope CC Supreme
                          Natalie P Ultra
                          Natalie P Supreme
                          Janus BP1 Sub


                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • Hank
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 1345

                            #14
                            Everyone pay attention here! Jon's post should serve as a stern warning to us to ALWAYS read the label directions and cautions on prescription pain medications. :roll:

                            Jon, I need to send you a couple of BoseBusters for your computer.
                            BTW, e-mail me your address so I can send you an ASB CD. Keep recuperating so you can get off the pain pills :LOL:

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15259

                              #15
                              Hey Hank,

                              Those prescription painkillers are Sooooo good, but you gotta watch out for the half life effects, too! That is, they don't decay in the body right away- some have a "half life" as long as 48 hours.

                              How else to explain I haven't ingested any since Tuesday last week, but then maybe it's the Tequila you prescribed for me, since the Doc didn't put any limit on how long I could take that, or how much!

                              -Jon

                              PS. What's an ASB CD? If it's something you really think I need, I'll send my address. :W




                              Earth First!
                              _______________________________
                              We'll screw up the other planets later....
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
                              Wavecor Ardent

                              SMJ
                              Minerva Monitor
                              Calliope
                              Ardent D

                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                              Obi-Wan
                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                              Modula PWB
                              Calliope CC Supreme
                              Natalie P Ultra
                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • Hank
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Jul 2002
                                • 1345

                                #16
                                Austin Symphonic Band: http://www.asband.org You once asked if we had any CD's.

                                Tequila is GOOD for you (quality tequila that is; not the stuff in the plastic bottles on the bottom shelf).

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15259

                                  #17
                                  Ahhh, THAT ASB CD! Now I remember....

                                  Yeah, my girlfriend is always commenting on how I only drink the expensive Margarita's at the restaurants... that's cause I don't do cheap tequila, either. 8)

                                  -Jon




                                  Earth First!
                                  _______________________________
                                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                  the AudioWorx
                                  Natalie P
                                  M8ta
                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                  Modula MT XE
                                  Modula Xtreme
                                  Isiris
                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                  SMJ
                                  Minerva Monitor
                                  Calliope
                                  Ardent D

                                  In Development...
                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                  Obi-Wan
                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                  Modula PWB
                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment

                                  • SteveG
                                    Member
                                    • Jul 2002
                                    • 31

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by jonmarsh
                                    Ahhh, THAT ASB CD! Now I remember....

                                    Yeah, my girlfriend is always commenting on how I only drink the expensive Margarita's at the restaurants... that's cause I don't do cheap tequila, either. 8)

                                    -Jon
                                    That reminds me oif the scene from Bananas where a rebel is being totured by making him listen to Gilbert and Sullivan: "Please, please, no more operetta!"




                                    Steve Goff
                                    Steve Goff

                                    Comment

                                    • Hank
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Jul 2002
                                      • 1345

                                      #19
                                      Now Steve, this isn't forced. Jon actually asked me a while back if my ensemble has CD's available. It won't be much of a dynamic test for his speakers though, since we only have about 85 wind and percussion players in the band :roll: :LOL: :LOL:

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15259

                                        #20
                                        Hi Hank,

                                        I don't have access from my phone line connection at home to all my mail folders (particularly arhives) at work.

                                        Can you email me at my home mail, and I'll reply.

                                        Only 85 players? That's hardly bigger than an oversized sized string quartet... :LOL:

                                        jonhancock@sbcglobal.net


                                        Best regards,

                                        Jon




                                        Earth First!
                                        _______________________________
                                        We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                        the AudioWorx
                                        Natalie P
                                        M8ta
                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                        Modula MT XE
                                        Modula Xtreme
                                        Isiris
                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                        SMJ
                                        Minerva Monitor
                                        Calliope
                                        Ardent D

                                        In Development...
                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                        Obi-Wan
                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                        Modula PWB
                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

                                        • SteveG
                                          Member
                                          • Jul 2002
                                          • 31

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Hank
                                          Now Steve, this isn't forced. Jon actually asked me a while back if my ensemble has CD's available. It won't be much of a dynamic test for his speakers though, since we only have about 85 wind and percussion players in the band :roll: :LOL: :LOL:
                                          Hank,

                                          I certainly didn't mean to comment on your group, which I'm sure is quite fine. And I'll even admit to having some LPs of wind ensembles and symphonic bands. But I'll stand by the torture by operetta comment, having sat through too many performances of the Seattle Gilbert & Sullivan Society--a very talented group-- because my sister was the lead soprano in all of their productions. (She is now the director.)




                                          Steve Goff
                                          Steve Goff

                                          Comment

                                          • Jack Gilvey
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Aug 2001
                                            • 510

                                            #22
                                            Hey, check it out guys:



                                            Great stuff...Hanks' da man!

                                            Now if you're all nice I'll post a link to an .mp3 of the last band I was in, some 10 years ago (as soon as I rip it from a video cd, that is)...

                                            Comment

                                            • Hank
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Jul 2002
                                              • 1345

                                              #23
                                              Steve: no offense taken, man.

                                              Jack: thanks for the plug, and as Kevin Kostner said in "Tin Cup":
                                              Grip it and Rip it!

                                              Comment

                                              • Jack Gilvey
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Aug 2001
                                                • 510

                                                #24
                                                All right, you asked for it. This is a really-low-production-value recording ripped from a mono VHS camcorder held in a drunken crowd at Rutgers U. That's me on lead guitar (Gibson SG/Marshall half-stack) and lead "vocals". I kinda like my solo, was mainly off-the-cuff IIRC. Excuse the bad balance and mic overload. It's my own personal "Cavern Club".

                                                http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jgilvey/stuff/fortunate_son.mp3

                                                Comment

                                                • Hank
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Jul 2002
                                                  • 1345

                                                  #25
                                                  8O Wow, that was hot! Sounded like your candle was burning at both ends. Probably a good thing you changed hobbies to DIY so you'd live to a ripe old age, huh?

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Jack Gilvey
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Aug 2001
                                                    • 510

                                                    #26
                                                    "It's better to fade away than to burn out. "

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Danny Richie
                                                      Junior Member
                                                      • Aug 2002
                                                      • 3

                                                      #27
                                                      Someone says my name is coming up over here again?

                                                      Hey you can't beet that, I guess.

                                                      Anyway just a quick note the dispersion issue.

                                                      Leaf/ribbon/planar tweeters have no vertical dispersion. The sweet spot is basically only as tall as the radiating element is high.
                                                      If this were true then the G2 would have about a 2.5" tall sweet spot.

                                                      Actually it is quite the opposite.

                                                      The longer the ribbon element is the more limited its vertical dispersion is to the length of the ribbon.

                                                      A short ribbon like the G2 will have very good vertical dispersion and good horizontal dispersion too of coarse. The same is true for a Raven R-1.

                                                      The taller G-3 and Raven R-2's have a very noticeable limited vertical dispersion.

                                                      I longer RD ribbons have next to nothing going on in the high frequency range above and below the height of the ribbon.

                                                      Thanks,

                                                      Comment

                                                      • ThomasW
                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 10934

                                                        #28
                                                        Having been quoted in the above post I'll reply.

                                                        Looking at the off-axis FR plot posted earlier in this thread and subsequent comments; it appears that 'good' off-axis dispersion, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder (or retailer).

                                                        Unlike Mr Richie, I have no vested commercial interest in convincing people as to the advantages of any particular product or design.

                                                        Those wishing further comment from Mr Richie are encouraged to contact him at the forum his company operates.

                                                        This thread seems to have run it's course......




                                                        theAudioWorx
                                                        Klone-Audio

                                                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                        Comment

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