New Behringer XO/EQ

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  • Dennis H
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Aug 2002
    • 3791

    New Behringer XO/EQ



    24/96, 3 in, 6 out, $400.
  • PMazz
    Senior Member
    • May 2001
    • 861

    #2
    Sure looks like the real deal! It's only a matter of time and this type of unit will be mainstream, in one form or another. I wish it was offered with RCA connectors instead of XLRs, tho.

    Pete
    Birth of a Media Center

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15259

      #3
      ThomasW says this is something that I need.... unlike a screen door on a submarine! :W




      Actually, it looks like it would be a very intersting development tool, even if the sonics aren't ultimate class. However, from their descriptions it's likely it uses a Cyrstal CS8420 as the sample rate converter and input receiver for digitial, and it's highly configurable, with a lot of configuration options available. Just the ticket for development projects/experiments with dipole systems, multi-way systems of all types, etc. Not "cheap", but a lot of stuff for the bucks. The balanced inputs and outputs are a nice touch- and mandatory for Pro applicaitons- which is what this is really developed for. However, with 113 dB dynamic range, performance should be pretty reasonable.

      Jon and Thomas give it a one thumbs up and one sideways... he's undecided! :LOL:

      Also on the Behringer list, but much more reasonably priced, is the Behringer CX-3400 Analog electronic crossover- street price in the $129 to $159 range.



      A bargain at it's price.

      -Jon




      Earth First!
      _______________________________
      We'll screw up the other planets later....
      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
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      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • Peter
        Junior Member
        • Dec 2002
        • 1

        #4
        Dennis,

        Wow, this looks like this exactly what I need! I just built a Stryke AV12 sub and was looking to put together an LT/equalizer, a Marchand XM1 crossover, and a 24/96 or 24/192 DAC by the end of the year, but I didn't want to deal with the circuit construction. Thanks for the link!

        Does anyone know whether the XO on the DCX2496 has both a LP and HP filter? I'd like to high-pass my SCH K05B50s at around 100 Hz or so, and though I took a quick look through through the manuals of both the CX3400 and DCX2496, I couldn't figure out whether either unit had both 4th order LR low-pass and high-pass filters, or just a low-pass filter. Any ideas?

        Peter

        Comment

        • Dennis H
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Aug 2002
          • 3791

          #5
          I downloaded the software and it has highpass and lowpass filters, 6 - 48 dB, for each output. Delays, digital gains and EQs (bell and shelving) for each input and output. One thumbs down is no analog gain adjustments, same as previous Behringer digital units. Full digital zero for the ADC and DAC is about 10 analog volts (22 dBU) so you could be throwing away bits of resolution if you run it with typical consumer gear upstream and downstream.

          Comment

          • sfdoddsy
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2000
            • 496

            #6
            There are a few units out there with this kind of capability, although the Behringer is the cheapest one. I have the dbx Driverack PA, which doesn't include the AES/EBU input, but does have automatic room EQ.

            I used to own a Behringer Ultracurve, and the A/D section of the Driverack seems to be superior. I've had no problems with quanization noise at low input levels, wheras on the Ultracurve I did get a bit of 'burbling' on quiet bass passages.

            Of course, the new Behringer appears to have improved chips so this may be moot. I really like the fact that you can choose to make it a three input biamp crossover. This would be ideal for dipole center and surrounds, with the EQ... hmmm, might call www.zzounds.com!

            BTW, I have the cheap Behringer xover mentioned above. It is a very nice unit too.

            Steve




            Steve's DIY Dipoles
            Steve's OB Journey

            Comment

            • Davey
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2003
              • 355

              #7
              Anyone have experience using digital crossovers for dipole systems and their required equalizations? My experience with the Rane RPM26v is that programming the necessary (large) amounts of equalization for woofer outputs quickly clips the internal circuitry. Solveable by reducing the input greatly, but that's not a very good option. This may just be an architecture problem specific to my unit since the analog level controls are downstream of the DSP. I added the required equalization outboard, but it would have been nice to avoid this.

              I noticed on the block diagram of this new Behringer unit that the level adjustment in each leg comes before the equalization block. This might alleviate the problem somewhat.

              I was wondering about experiences with other units like the Driverack, Behringer, etc.

              Thanks,

              Davey.

              Comment

              • sfdoddsy
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2000
                • 496

                #8
                That's exactly how I use my Driverack PA, as a three way crossover and EQ for my dipoles.

                I haven't noticed either by ear or by clipping indicators any problems.

                Steve




                Steve's DIY Dipoles
                Steve's OB Journey

                Comment

                • Davey
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2003
                  • 355

                  #9
                  Steve,

                  What amount of equalization did you use on the woofer channels, and how did you implement it with the Driverack? Multiple cascaded shelves?

                  Thanks,

                  Davey.

                  Comment

                  • sfdoddsy
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2000
                    • 496

                    #10
                    The Driverack is very flexible, and I've just changed the bass drivers so I am still fiddling, but here are the current settings.

                    The bass has a 12dB shelving filter with a 6dB per octave slope, maximum gain is set at 25Hz. I also goose the 20Hz region just a tad with an overlaying filter.

                    The midrange has a 12dB bell filter with a Q of 2.03 and center frequency of 150Hz. I also have a notch filter on the midrange at 5kHz.

                    I don't use any EQ on the highs.

                    Crossovers are at 100Hz and 1400Hz, all 24dB Linkwitz Riley. I also am playing with a 20Hz 12dB filter to limit excursion.

                    The bass and treble are run at 0dB and the midrange at -11dB, and the midrange and treble are delayed by the appropriate distances to match the acoustic center of the bass drivers (.12 & .14 metres).

                    On top of this I use the Auto room EQ feature to EQ each speaker individually to a flat setting, although I flatten the EQ above 5kHz. Each time I move the speakers I redo the room EQ.

                    Cheers

                    Steve




                    Steve's DIY Dipoles
                    Steve's OB Journey

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15259

                      #11
                      I think these discussions are interesting and valuable.

                      The one thing that really bothers me about digital preamps or digital crossover/EQ's is the overall architecture, in the sense of optimizing the dynamic range.

                      A common problem I believe arises if one is using a preamp volume control before the crossover/EQ unit, and no gain modification afterwards. Then, unlike CD's or SACD's, you have a situation where for "normal" listening at moderate to low levels, you're throwing away 20 dB or more of your dynamic range. This would be even worse for larger systems. Imagine a system like my X1's, with a dynamic range of 115 dB or so. Now, I like listening at some pretty loud levels on some kinds of classical music, as well as occaasionally turning up a jazz or rock piece, but I also do a lot of listening not a lot above conversational levels- 75 to 80 dB. So, if the processor/crossover/EQ is optimized to not clip at max output of my system, it's going to be operating at 30 to 35 dB below max level most of the time. Now, most current so called 24 bit converters are really only 20 bit resolving in terms of analog noise and distortion- the newest segmented DAC architecture from TI/Burr Brown will use an unusually high reference and 10V output level, in order to hit 21-22 bit resolution. Throw away 35 dB of "bits" from the other best conventional converters, and you're left with a S/N+distortion range of no more than 80 dB- not quite 14 bit resolution. Not much point in running your high res upsampled CD's or SACD disks through that, is there? Or isn't there? It's hard to say, because the room noise floor is well above the converters still. However, digititus may be creeping in, and that *may* be audible. Or not.

                      Things to think about. And experiment with. The shortcomings of most 16 bit digital systems are obvious to the degree that we aren't usually really getting 16 bits of "quality" out of them. Part of the benefits of SACD and DVDA are that with the extra bits, even if it isn't all done as well, it can be pretty good at a more reasonable price. There's evidence that 16 bits done REALLY well will sound better (at least slightly) than an average job of doing 24 bits- but the latter can be done at as little as 1/10th the cost....

                      My brain hurts sometimes, thinking about these things....

                      Best regards,

                      Jon




                      Earth First!
                      _______________________________
                      We'll screw up the other planets later....
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • Dennis H
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Aug 2002
                        • 3791

                        #12
                        I've been thinking about the resolution thing too. One way around it, for a stereo 3-way system, might be to run the digital signal from the transport right into the XO. Assuming the DACs of the XO were decent, you could control the volume downstream with a 6 channel analog volume control. Something like the Sony 5.1 analog preamp might work pretty well with its remote or you could probably cobble together a 6-channel passive attenuator.

                        Comment

                        • Davey
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2003
                          • 355

                          #13
                          Dennis,

                          That's how my setup is configured...although I don't have a digital input on the crossover. I connect my CD player analog outputs to the Rane RPM26v inputs via a small op-amp amplifier. I've adjusted the gain setting on this amplifier to yield the highest signal level possible passing through the crossover and then I use my Sony TA-P9000ES six channel preamp to control all six of the outputs for my triamped Linkwitz speakers. A six channel passive attenuator would still yield plenty of signal level, but I haven't gotten around to building one of those yet.

                          Davey.

                          Comment

                          • sfdoddsy
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2000
                            • 496

                            #14
                            The problems with dynamic range or quantization noise were apparent with the Behringer Ultracurve, but have not been with the Driverack. My old TACT was fine as well.

                            The ideal solution would probably be a prepro like the Merdian 561 which has digital outs on all channels, with a digital crossover with digital ins on all channels. Rather pricey though.

                            My only question about the resolution question is how audible it would be given the volume levels involved, and the ear's sensitivity at low levels.


                            Steve




                            Steve's DIY Dipoles
                            Steve's OB Journey

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15259

                              #15
                              Dennis and Davey,

                              I think you've hit on what is most likely the optimum architecture- I just didn't know if anyone else would find it reasonable! It would ideally need to be a complete preamp crossover system, with input gain adjustments for different sources, to optimize the level into the ADC's, then all the processing, then another gain control system to set output level. The latter could be digitally controlled such as the way Crystal's and others have digitally controlled volume units, but not by DSP manipulation of the total number of bits going out to the main DAC's. Or, for those curmudgeonly among us, high quality analog controls, such as pasive stepped attenuators.

                              And unfortunately I've heard that Sony has discontinued their analog 5.1 preamp- what the hey are they going to replace it with?

                              -Jon




                              Earth First!
                              _______________________________
                              We'll screw up the other planets later....
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
                              Wavecor Ardent

                              SMJ
                              Minerva Monitor
                              Calliope
                              Ardent D

                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                              Obi-Wan
                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                              Modula PWB
                              Calliope CC Supreme
                              Natalie P Ultra
                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • Davey
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2003
                                • 355

                                #16
                                Jon/Dennis,

                                I don't know if you receive Audioxpress magazine or not, but in the latest issue Dennis Colin has built a six channel level control system for his HT system using six Analog SSM2018T VCA's. This could be easily used for a global volume control in a system similar to mine. It looks to be a fairly nice design. Check it out if you can.
                                Analog SSM2160 is also an option.

                                Davey.

                                Comment

                                • sfdoddsy
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Sep 2000
                                  • 496

                                  #17
                                  MSB also make, or made, a multichannel volume control.

                                  Steve




                                  Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                  Steve's OB Journey

                                  Comment

                                  • sfdoddsy
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Sep 2000
                                    • 496

                                    #18
                                    MSB also make, or made, a multichannel volume control.

                                    Steve




                                    Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                    Steve's OB Journey

                                    Comment

                                    • intelonetwo
                                      Member
                                      • Jan 2003
                                      • 48

                                      #19
                                      I have been looking at the digital XO's and EQ lately and will likely go with the Behringer or dbxDriverack PA.


                                      Steve, how valuable is the Room EQ portion of the Driverack PA? Is it more important than the heightend control ability and digital inputs of Behringer DCX2496?

                                      Davey, Dennis H. MSB does have a volume control that has 8 channels with separate trim control and comes with a remote control.

                                      For a passive Volume control you may want to take a look http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ol-2-2003.html they did a write up of a kimber-dact Passive 6-channel Volume control which I think is a great piece. Now all you need to do is add some input selection and you a nice purist piece of audio equipment. Would adding the extra inputs necitate some type of power supply to control these inputs or give them more Voltage to adequately run the system to realistic volume levels?

                                      Does anyone have a block diagram of the best to wire up a system using one of these digital XO/EQ's? I sure need one.




                                      MI-II-CENTS
                                      ______________
                                      The TailWind Generation I

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