Do you know of any DIY kits for speakers like these?

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  • skvinson
    Junior Member
    • Dec 2002
    • 29

    Do you know of any DIY kits for speakers like these?

    I have never built speakers before, but am ready to dive in. Since I'm a total newbie, I planned on starting in the "kiddie pool."

    I have always been interested in Newform Research speakers. I know a lot of owners modify theirs. I might order a kit from Rick Craig (Selah Audio). It comes with completed crossovers. I plan on modifying the shape of the cabinet. I thought this would be a good way to get my feet wet.

    The catch: My wife. The WAF of Newforms is not very high. She is not totally opposed, but she would prefer something else.

    I have been talking to Steve Dodds about his dipole design. That looks interesting, but would require 6 channels of amplication right away. I was planning on running the Newform clones off my receiver initially, then buying a good 2-channel amp later. Also, I'm not sure if I want dipoles or not. (BTW, these will be the front speakers in an HT/Music set up.)

    I attended CES last year. One thing I noticed was I consistently liked the sound of tall, narrow baffle speakers. Among those, speakers by: Audio Physic, Vienna Acoustics & Red Rose Music. If you're not familar, here are those sites:

    Audio Physic
    http://www.immediasound.com/AvantiIII.htm

    Vienna Acoustics
    http://www.viennaacoustics.com/flash.html#

    (Their site is a pain to navigate, but their speakers are nice. I especially like the Strauss & Mahler. I like the side-firing woofers.)

    Red Rose Music
    http://www.redrosemusic.com/new_site/speakers.html

    (I'm interested in their Classic - for now. The Revelation would be a great line array project for later! I liked the sound of the ribbon tweeter, which you can see in their Rosebud 2.)

    So ... are their any plans/kits for speakers like these? I especially like something with a ribbon tweeter, like the Red Rose. Also, I guess I should ask, how hard is it to build a crossover? I feel comfortable with the woodworking aspect of speaker building, but I haven't done much soldering. And right now, the various diagrams I've seen would require some explanation.

    Thanks for your help,
    Steve
  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15261

    #2
    Welcome to HT Guide, Steve!

    You post some interesting questions, for which it would be hard to offer a "pat answer". While you profess willingness to start in the "kiddie pool", the types of projects and speakers you're interseted in constructing are definitely not "kiddie pool" types of projects!

    With DIY, there's several possible routes:

    1) Kit with knock down or pre-built enclosure, pre-built crossovers, and drivers, wire, etc. Modest to no woodworking skills required, minimal electrical assembly skills. PE, Madisound, and some others provide kits of this type.

    2) Kit with complete crossovers already built, all drivers included, with plans for enclosure. You build enclosures and mount and wire crossovers and drivers according to plans. Requires mostly woodworking equipment and experience, with minimal electrical assembly skills. Adire, PE, Madisound, Newform Reseach, many others provide kits like this.

    3) Kit with crossover parts and drivers included, with plans for enclosure. Enclsoure is complete scratch built, crossovers are wired and assembled by hand. Cost is lower than above, but requires more skill.

    4) Plans for speaker and drivers are included; crossover parts sourced by builder. All assembly by builder. Some folks sell info for kits like this, and sell only drivers.

    5) Use a "proven" DIY design which is available gratis from a magazine or web site, and source and build cabinets, crossovers, etc.

    6) Using known successful commerical speakers as inspiration, design cabinets, measure drivers in cabinets, design and build crossovers for speaker, assemble, test, tweak and refine.

    7) Using thoughtful flights of fancy and speculation as your inspiration, design cabinets, measure drivers in cabinets, design and build crossovers for speaker, assemble, test, tweak and refine.



    Option 1 requires the least experience and knowledge, and even a moderately complex kit may be completed successfully if you're good at following instructions. As you go down the list, increasing levels of experience and knowledge are required.

    It really sounds from your post like you'd like to be doing number 6 above, but your current experience and knowledge level may be more suited to number 2. If you're willing to develop woodworking and electrical assembly skills (layout, interconnection, soldering) then #3 or #4 above may be feasible.

    OR, if you live nearby someone (a friend preferably) with experience at a higher level than you, who's willing to work with you, then one of the more difficult levels should be feasible, "with a little help from your friends".

    Now, you can consider all of us DIY'ers at HT Guide some of your "new friends", but there's things that are easy to do in person which are much harder to do or explain by email.... :W

    Look at some of the DIY discussion that's gone on over the last six months or so, and you'll get an idea of the cumulative experience on this site, and whether it's relevant to what you'd like to do. Victor's got a pretty interesting project in the works for a line array. So does Pete Mazzacarro.

    For a complete high end kit, Selah Audio's Excel Array may be closest to matching your requirements for performance and ease of assembly- the cabinet design by Joe Cohen looks fairly attractive, though I have reservations about mounting a dipole driver right next to a hardwood cabinet without any damping.



    The main drawback to the Excel Array is the price :E but that's a function of the inherent cost of the Seas drivers, which are first rate components. Also, from what I've been able to read, the cabinet design seems optimized for for esthetics (reasonable size) than extending the deep bass performance of the Excel drivers.

    Though my knowledge of DIY projects out there is hardle exhaustive, I can't say I know off hand of anyone who's done a kit similar to any of the systems you mention in your post that you're interested in. Some of the larger North Creek Audio systems kits may be similar in some performance parameters to the Vienna's- have you checked them out?

    Best regards,

    Jon

    I hope I've given you a little food for thought




    Earth First!
    _______________________________
    We'll screw up the other planets later....
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
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    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
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    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
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    Comment

    • skvinson
      Junior Member
      • Dec 2002
      • 29

      #3
      Jon,

      Thanks for your reply. I had a basic idea about the levels you explained. I was wondering if there were any "level 2" kits for something like the Red Rose Classic. If not, my wife and I have reached a compromise. I can build the modified Newform speakers, if she is free to make jokes about the 45" ribbon. Fine with me!

      BTW, the kit I am ordering is from Rick Craig (Selah Audio), the same person who designed the Excel Array you pictured. In fact, his kit replaces the upper Scan Speak driver with an Excel driver. His crossover also makes it a 2.5-way design, with the Scan Speak only handling the low bass. Also, the ribbon pictured in his Excel Array is the Newform ribbon, and it is monopole vs. dipole. I don't know if that alleviates your concerns about it being mounted next to a hardwood cabinet.

      One question ... I plan on changing the front baffle. For stability and aesthetics, I want to make a semi-triangular front. I'll use the same 9" top width, but widen to 14" at the bottom (24" tall). Rick said this might require tweaking the crossover. Any insight on what to expect? (I'm keeping the same internal volume, and my cabinets will be sealed - which Rick has already said necessitates reducing the vented volume.)

      Thanks again. I do plan on working my way up the "leves." Just planning out my modified cabinets has been fun. I look forward to future projects.

      Steve

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15261

        #4
        Hi Steve,

        A trapezoidal cabinet construction should lessen issues with the edge diffraction having a big frequency peak; it may also modify the baffle step behavior, which might require slight tweaking of the crossover for the flattest response in the 300Hz to 1 kHz area. On the other hand, if you're "straddling" the mean of the original baffle width, you'll probably not have any problems.

        Yes, I have a tendency to forget that the Newform is "monopole", since I'm more used to working with dipole ribbon drivers. So will you be building a system like one of the standard Newforms with the ribbon on top of a midwoofer array? I wonder how that works out at different listening distances- given a line array above 1 kHz and something of a point source below. The response will fall off at different rates from the drivers (line array vs. point source), which is why I'm doing a fairly tall line array of midwoofers in my project, discussed here. I expect the trick is to balance the midwoofer array and the ribbon for the desired listening distance.

        Good luck with your project and keep us posted on what you decide to do and your progress!

        Best regards,

        Jon




        Earth First!
        _______________________________
        We'll screw up the other planets later....
        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • sfdoddsy
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2000
          • 496

          #5
          Steve,

          Good to see you here. www.zalytron.com has some interesting kits available using ribbons and line arrays of various sorts, you might want to check their site out. www.e-speakers.com also has a few.

          Cheers

          Steve




          Steve's DIY Dipoles
          Steve's OB Journey

          Comment

          • skvinson
            Junior Member
            • Dec 2002
            • 29

            #6
            Steve,

            Thanks for the links. They do have some kits that are similar to the speakers I like. I think I'm going to wait to tackle such a project until I know more (MUCH more!). I would love to build something like a Vienna Acoustics Mahler or Red Rose Classic. With more experience, I think I can experiment and come up with the best design, drivers, etc. Right now, I would have to rely totally on a kit.

            I'm going to build Rick Craig's modified Newform. It comes in kit form, but from what I've read, it is one of the best versions of the Newform speaker. (I know you had a pair of Newforms and didn't like them. I assume they were stock. Apparently the modifications make a substantial improvement, especially a design like Rick's that turns them into a 2.5-way design.) This way I can know I have a top-notch Newform design. I'll start learning about speaker building and eventually build one of the above designs that I can feel confident in.

            In between, I may tackle something like your dipoles. (That way I can do my own shootout!) After the Newforms, I plan on building a Sonosub. (Wow - when the DIY bug bites - it really bites!!)

            I'll post some pictures when the Newforms are done.

            Steve

            Comment

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