DBX Driverack PA

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  • PMazz
    Senior Member
    • May 2001
    • 861

    DBX Driverack PA

    I've been toying with the idea of a line level Xover and saw the DriveRack™ PA Complete Equalization & Loudspeaker Control System. The unit features a digital xover, EQ, PEQ, filters as well as limiter and some other pro audio features. Can be used at +4 or -10 input levels.

    Any thoughts on this piece?

    Pete
    Birth of a Media Center
  • PMazz
    Senior Member
    • May 2001
    • 861

    #2
    Oops!


    Pete
    Birth of a Media Center

    Comment

    • sfdoddsy
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2000
      • 496

      #3
      There have been some good reviews at the pro forum at www.liveaudio.com and at the Madisound forum.

      I just bought one yesterday to replace my active crossover and Behringer Ultracurve.

      Another interesting unit for about the same price is the LEM DX226 at www.lemaudio.com, but I have no idea where to find one in the States.

      For a bit (lot) more money, BSS, XTA, JBL and Ashly also make units with similar capabilities.

      Steve




      Steve's DIY Dipoles
      Steve's OB Journey

      Comment

      • ThomasW
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2000
        • 10934

        #4
        Try before you buy, would be a good motto for these lower priced all-in-one digital processors. They may be fine. But they may have a very characteristic ddddigital sound. My Sony E9000 pre/pro has pretty sophisticated 48 bit processing. I use it for movie playback, not for music due to the sonic characteristics of the all digital signal processing

        The dbx front panel as a grahic EQ with fixed bands. Those are of limited use, parametric EQ is a better option.




        theAudioWorx
        Klone-Audio

        IB subwoofer FAQ page


        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

        Comment

        • PMazz
          Senior Member
          • May 2001
          • 861

          #5
          Steve,
          What Xover are you replacing? I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

          Tom,
          I know you use the Marchand xover. Do you keep it in the system full time or do you only use it to test?

          One alternative for testing would be SoundEasy ver 6. It allows you to simulate Xover topologies that you design with the software. Problem is, I'm Xover illiterate and really haven't ever designed one.

          Pete
          Birth of a Media Center

          Comment

          • ThomasW
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 10934

            #6
            Pete

            Marchands have been in daily used for more than 10yrs. There are 3 in the HT and 2 in the family room.

            What do you want to do with the XO sims? Do you really want sims or do you want to try different XO points on speakers themselves? If so the Marchand is a great piece of gear. It costs about $2.50 to create a XO frequency module and about 15 seconds to change out the modules. The Marchand XM-8 has a hardwire remote that allows the user to change the XO points from 15' away. It's pricy and has more circuitry in the signal path compared to the more minimalistic XM-9 design.

            LspCAD Pro allows the user to not only sim the design but to actually hear the design changes via the sound card with their PC .

            Jon's had SoundEasy for years. He basically stopped using it after getting LspCAD




            theAudioWorx
            Klone-Audio

            IB subwoofer FAQ page


            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

            Comment

            • PMazz
              Senior Member
              • May 2001
              • 861

              #7
              LspCAD Pro allows the user to not only sim the design but to actually hear the design changes via the sound card with their PC
              SoundEasy has the same feature.



              This thread started from my desire to be able to experiment with different xover ranges, but, in the case of the Driverack or Marchand, be able to also use it for dedicated xover work.

              It costs about $2.50 to create a XO frequency module and about 15 seconds to change out the modules
              I thought there was much more to it than that. Are these something you design and put together or from Marchand?


              Pete
              Birth of a Media Center

              Comment

              • ThomasW
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2000
                • 10934

                #8
                Pete

                The Marchand modules are just a standard 8 pin dip header with 4 resistor soldered to it. I buy my parts from Digi-Key and make a ton of different values. I have a little Excel spread sheet that calculates the resistor values for a given XO point. I'll email it to you if you'd like




                theAudioWorx
                Klone-Audio

                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                Comment

                • PMazz
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2001
                  • 861

                  #9
                  The Marchand modules are just a standard 8 pin dip header with 4 resistor soldered to it.
                  I was looking at Pat's pics in the other thread and only saw what I thought looked like a fairly complicated xover board. Is this something that just plugs into that board?

                  I'll email it to you if you'd like
                  Yea, I'd like to take a look, thanks.

                  What do you do for other xover essentials like a notch filter and the like?

                  Pete

                  Pete
                  Birth of a Media Center

                  Comment

                  • ThomasW
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 10934

                    #10
                    Pete

                    If you look at Pat's before/after pics, the module is on the left side in the middle of the board there's a black object with 4 resistors on it.

                    What do you do for other xover essentials like a notch filter and the like?
                    I use a passive one listed in the B&G white paper available on the PE website.




                    theAudioWorx
                    Klone-Audio

                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                    Comment

                    • PMazz
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2001
                      • 861

                      #11
                      Do you just replace the resistors or the entire module? How many times can this be done? I've never seen one up close.

                      Pete
                      Birth of a Media Center

                      Comment

                      • Pat
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 1637

                        #12
                        Pete, glad you find my photos helpful

                        Here are some more that I hope are equally as helpful.

                        This is the crossover frequency module


                        This is what it looks like when removed


                        And finally the module itself


                        On my parts list the module is called an 8 pin DIP header and the price is $1.35




                        Pat's Page
                        Pat's Page

                        Comment

                        • PMazz
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2001
                          • 861

                          #13
                          Pat, You Da Man!!!

                          Thanks, that looks easy enough.

                          Pete
                          Birth of a Media Center

                          Comment

                          • sfdoddsy
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2000
                            • 496

                            #14
                            Pete,

                            I have a bunch of stuff I'm playing with crossover wise - a Mirage LFX3 sub crossover, a Mirage LFX1 sub crossover, a Behringer 2310, and a LEM 223, as well as the crossovers in my prepro.

                            The LFX3 is good purely for sub work, and the Behringer sounds very clean to my ears.

                            I'm interested in the Driverack partly because of the excellent reviews from pro users and of course the price. While I would have liked more EQ bands for each output, the three should be sufficient.

                            I'll be trying it as a two way plus sub with my current setup, but I'm also going to build a test dipole based on the Linkwitz Phoenix and use it as the crossover for that. If that works out I may build the Phoenix, or at least the Don Maurer adaption (SEAS drivers)properly.

                            Cheers

                            Steve




                            Steve's DIY Dipoles
                            Steve's OB Journey

                            Comment

                            • PMazz
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2001
                              • 861

                              #15
                              The DriveRack has what I really want, already built in. The question still remains, tho, and that's the sound. I don't know how picky the pro users are for their sound, or whether home use and pro use are that different sound quality wise. The only place I know of to get one is thru the net and that makes returns less convenient. I'll have to look around for some locals I guess.

                              Browsing the Marchand site and recommendations from Jon on the XM44 turned up some more questions. The pic of the 44 has what looks to be xover modules that plug in vertically to the main board. Do these have to be replaced to change xover points or do they work like the dip module on the XM9?

                              Pete
                              Birth of a Media Center

                              Comment

                              • Dennis H
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • Aug 2002
                                • 3791

                                #16
                                This Sony looks really interesting too. It's the only one I'm aware of that uses 24/96 ADC/DAC along with 48 bit internal math. In theory, it should be more transparent but I haven't heard one so I can't comment on whether the sound quality lives up to the specs.

                                Comment

                                • Bruce
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 156

                                  #17
                                  Thomas,

                                  I've been using my XM9-L for the last 3 years.

                                  Been meaning to try building my own xover modules, but haven't sat down to try and calculate the resistor values.

                                  I sure would appreciate if you could email me your Excel spreadsheet that calculates these values.

                                  Bruce
                                  bstan260@hotmail.com




                                  Bruce
                                  ____________________________________________
                                  Bruce

                                  Comment

                                  • ThomasW
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 10934

                                    #18
                                    I uploaded the .xls sheet to a server, click
                                    HERE to download it




                                    theAudioWorx
                                    Klone-Audio

                                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                    Comment

                                    • Bruce
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 156

                                      #19
                                      Thomas,

                                      Yes, you are quite a gentleman. Thanks for the resistor value spreadsheet.




                                      Bruce
                                      ____________________________________________
                                      Bruce

                                      Comment

                                      • PMazz
                                        Senior Member
                                        • May 2001
                                        • 861

                                        #20
                                        Tom,
                                        Looking at the spreadsheet, what values do you use? The top default values are radically different than the bottom optimised ones. What is the "suggested value" in the pink section in uF used for?

                                        I'm electronically challenged, you know!

                                        Pete
                                        Birth of a Media Center

                                        Comment

                                        • ThomasW
                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 10934

                                          #21
                                          Pete

                                          For a stock Marchand use the upper calculator that says 'For the Default Values of C1-C4".

                                          Jon feels that especially for higher frequency XO points the Marchand should have the set of 4 caps (C1-C4) changed out to a different value (he recommends .033uF). If that's done then the lower calculator should be used




                                          theAudioWorx
                                          Klone-Audio

                                          IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15261

                                            #22
                                            Dyslexia strikes a loved one every 5.6 minutes....

                                            The standard caps in the Marchand modules are OK for the middle range of frequencies, but at low frequencies result in rather large resistor values (higher noise). Suggest using the bigger caps (polystyrene or polypropylene) for low frequency crossover points.

                                            Best regards,

                                            Jon




                                            Earth First!
                                            _______________________________
                                            We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                            the AudioWorx
                                            Natalie P
                                            M8ta
                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                            Modula MT XE
                                            Modula Xtreme
                                            Isiris
                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                            SMJ
                                            Minerva Monitor
                                            Calliope
                                            Ardent D

                                            In Development...
                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • ThomasW
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 10934

                                              #23
                                              Hey.

                                              I'm not cixelsyd am I? :B




                                              theAudioWorx
                                              Klone-Audio

                                              IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                              Comment

                                              • PMazz
                                                Senior Member
                                                • May 2001
                                                • 861

                                                #24
                                                Wow, looking at the Digikey site has me confused once again.....shock.

                                                There are so many caps, I need more to go on. Better yet, part numbers. I found the polyester but no polystyrene (enerytsylop for you, Tom).

                                                Pete
                                                Birth of a Media Center

                                                Comment

                                                • ThomasW
                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 10934

                                                  #25
                                                  Yeap, the Digi-Key site is hard to use without a catalog. Call their 800 number and ask for one.

                                                  Styrene caps are pretty much impossible to find these days...




                                                  theAudioWorx
                                                  Klone-Audio

                                                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                  Comment

                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                    • 15261

                                                    #26
                                                    You kids!

                                                    Polypropylene! Not Polyester! Polyester is for cheap men's suits and mediocre caps!


                                                    Seriously, try the Panasonic ECQP(U) series; OFC solid copper leads, (watch out for the parts with copper clad steel).

                                                    0.033 uF is Digikey part number P2382-ND, 0.62 each, 10 for $5.34.

                                                    Polystyrene has lower dielectric absorbtion coefficient, and good grades sound better, but they aren't made anymore (the material isn't), and only NOS is available. Some of us have been known to hoard them for their own projects.....

                                                    On another note, I'll be leaving for Munich early tomorrow, for a weeks business there, so I won't be on HT Guide for a while- have fun and play nice while I'm away!

                                                    -Jon




                                                    Earth First!
                                                    _______________________________
                                                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                    Natalie P
                                                    M8ta
                                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                                    Modula MT XE
                                                    Modula Xtreme
                                                    Isiris
                                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                                    SMJ
                                                    Minerva Monitor
                                                    Calliope
                                                    Ardent D

                                                    In Development...
                                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                    Obi-Wan
                                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                    Modula PWB
                                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                    Comment

                                                    • PMazz
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • May 2001
                                                      • 861

                                                      #27
                                                      And I had a really good deal going on a polyester leisure suit...damn!

                                                      Hmm...no part#P2382-ND. How about P3482-ND? Looks to be what you're talking about. Polypropylene 400V .033uF cap.

                                                      I also have resistors ordered. 1W Metal Oxide Film, I hope. They were cheap enough so I got several values for different xover freqs.

                                                      Of course I don't have an amp or the Marchand unit yet. I guess I'm commited with $12 in parts already ordered.

                                                      Thanks!

                                                      Pete
                                                      Birth of a Media Center

                                                      Comment

                                                      • ThomasW
                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 10934

                                                        #28
                                                        Pete

                                                        Digi-Key has a $25 min order......if you don't spend that much there's an additional charge.

                                                        Also you really want one quarter watt resistors. One watt's are pretty big to fit 4 on the DIP headers




                                                        theAudioWorx
                                                        Klone-Audio

                                                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                        Comment

                                                        • PMazz
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • May 2001
                                                          • 861

                                                          #29
                                                          That's what I get for jumping the gun. Oh well, not much lost.

                                                          Pete
                                                          Birth of a Media Center

                                                          Comment

                                                          • PMazz
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • May 2001
                                                            • 861

                                                            #30
                                                            Well, I ordered the XM9 3-way deluxe model today.

                                                            Any tips, tricks, advice is appreciated.

                                                            Pete
                                                            Birth of a Media Center

                                                            Comment

                                                            • ThomasW
                                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 10934

                                                              #31
                                                              Here's a LINK to Scott Redman's site that talks about the MX-9. Note that the chassis has been changed for the rear panel mounted RCA's in the newer versions.

                                                              I cut the wiring several inches longer than the length stated in the instructions. That way it's not too short when it's twisted into a bundle.

                                                              My old eyes are having a hard time reading the color coding on the resistors so I use a DMM and measure them.

                                                              Use a organic flux solder that way it can be washed off with soap, warm water and a ScotchBrite pad. If you use a standard flux solder you'll need to get a spray can of flux remover and it's nasty stuff.

                                                              Pat's HT-Guide thread about his building of the XM9 is also a good reference




                                                              theAudioWorx
                                                              Klone-Audio

                                                              IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                              Comment

                                                              • PMazz
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • May 2001
                                                                • 861

                                                                #32
                                                                The PCBs have to be cleaned after soldering?? I've never heard of that. As I said, I'm electronically challanged.

                                                                Of course I just ordered extra solder....rosin core!

                                                                Pete
                                                                Birth of a Media Center

                                                                Comment

                                                                • ThomasW
                                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 10934

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Yeap it's a good idea to clean the PCB's after assembly. You can get spray cans of flux remover and they do the job, but the stuff is nasty.

                                                                  Might be a good idea for you to ask the questions before you go shopping :B

                                                                  BTW I've been billed for the Adire DPL 12's, so they should be shipped in a couple of weeks




                                                                  theAudioWorx
                                                                  Klone-Audio

                                                                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • PMazz
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • May 2001
                                                                    • 861

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Ask first???

                                                                    Some prefer to learn from their mistakes. I've learned a lot!!!

                                                                    One of these days I'll get the sequence correct. Of course my scrap parts bin(s) will suffer.

                                                                    LMK when/where for the Adires. :T

                                                                    Pete
                                                                    Birth of a Media Center

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • PMazz
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • May 2001
                                                                      • 861

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Tom, will denatured alcohol work with just a brush and rag?

                                                                      Pete
                                                                      Birth of a Media Center

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • ThomasW
                                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                        • 10934

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Probably, try not to get too much on the components




                                                                        theAudioWorx
                                                                        Klone-Audio

                                                                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • PMazz
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • May 2001
                                                                          • 861

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Tom,
                                                                          Do you have the DigiKey part# on those DIP headers? The catalog has me baffled.....again!

                                                                          Pete
                                                                          Birth of a Media Center

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • ThomasW
                                                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                            • 10934

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Pete

                                                                            The number is A101-ND

                                                                            I buy the 25 count pkg.




                                                                            theAudioWorx
                                                                            Klone-Audio

                                                                            IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                                            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • PMazz
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • May 2001
                                                                              • 861

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Thanks Tom.
                                                                              Birth of a Media Center

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Lex
                                                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                • Apr 2001
                                                                                • 27461

                                                                                #40
                                                                                You welcome. Speaking for Tom of course. :LOL:

                                                                                Lex
                                                                                Doug
                                                                                "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • sfdoddsy
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Sep 2000
                                                                                  • 496

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  The Driverack finally arrived today (thank you USPS). So I had to chuck it in the system and see what it sounds like. First impressions are pretty good. There is non of the quantization noise that the Behringer Ultracurve has at lower levels, and that was listening at over 59dB below reference with my ear to the speaker. The crossovers were as advertised and according to my measurements using TrueRTA of the correct slopes.

                                                                                  I did a quick play with the AutoEQ system system and it properly deciphered the problems with my system without EQ, namely a large dip due to baffle step. I also checked its results at 1/3 octave level, again with TrueRTA and they matched just fine. The parametric EQs also seem to work how they should.

                                                                                  On the downside, I would love to able to use a computer to control the machine. The screen is very small and useless for finer work. Software that would allow you experiment on your laptop and then download the reults would be much easier.

                                                                                  And I haven't worked out how or if you can save different programs. (Edit) I have now.

                                                                                  So for $500 I have a 3 way crossover with a huge range of different slopes and any crossover point I like, 8 bands of parametric EQ a side, 30 bands of graphic EQ, delays and a bunch more stuff. Hard to beat.

                                                                                  Steve




                                                                                  Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                                                  Steve's OB Journey

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • PMazz
                                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                                    • May 2001
                                                                                    • 861

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Yea, a PC interface would be the ticket with all the functionality of these units. The more expensive versions have the capability.

                                                                                    Having just ordered the Marchand xover, I guess I'll have to wait for the next generation of these. I would imagine they'll continue to improve, as well as get smaller, faster, cheaper....

                                                                                    Pete
                                                                                    Birth of a Media Center

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • PMazz
                                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                                      • May 2001
                                                                                      • 861

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Tom,
                                                                                      Hope you don't mind me playing with your spreadsheet, but take a look at this.



                                                                                      The Marchand site had a DOS program to calculate tha resistor values. It was a bit different than your equation, or the one in the white paper on the xover, so I did a reasonable facsimile. I also added an option for inputting standard resister values to get the exact xover freq for available values.

                                                                                      Pete
                                                                                      Birth of a Media Center

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • PMazz
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • May 2001
                                                                                        • 861

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Here's the new and improved? version.



                                                                                        Tom?

                                                                                        Pete
                                                                                        Birth of a Media Center

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • PMazz
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • May 2001
                                                                                          • 861

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Tom,
                                                                                          If the 3-way xover can be used for a 2 way, do you have to use the high/center xover board or can you use the center/low xover board?

                                                                                          Pete
                                                                                          Birth of a Media Center

                                                                                          Comment

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