I have some understanding of car audio can this be used for home to ? Mainly Sub boxes and size of boxes . Are there Dule Voice coil subs for home ? Has anybody ever stuck a car audio sub in a HT room ?
Car Sub & Home Sub
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Hey Tibor,
the main difference I have noticed is that home speakers are usually 8 Ohm while Car speakers are 4 Ohm.
Yes, there are dual voice coil woofers for HT subs. As a matter of fact, the highly respected Shiva driver is a dual voice coil.
I put my car sub (single 12" JL0-4 sealed) in my HT once to see how it sounded and well, it sounded like a sub
I think the main design differences here are going to be due to the size of the room you install the sub into. With car audio, usually you have a small trunk to put the cabinet in while in HT you usually have a comparatively huge room to fill with bass.
....... oh, and welcome to the forum :B
Thomas.- Bottom
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Hi again
The primary differences between home and car subs is that the home subs will play lower because the cabinets can be made larger.
Generally speaking home subs use sealed, ported or isobaric cabinet design. Bandpass so popular with car folks are really one note wonders, and have no place in HT (don't try telling this to a Bose fan though)
Many people use "car" woofer for home use especially some of the more esoteric cast frame ones.
One of our Canadian members Bing Fung is currently building a home sub with one of the Infinity 12" "car" woofers.
But for home use the plexiglass window so that people can see the woofer in the cabinet is frowned upon :B
theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson- Bottom
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Well not true always ,
I have many friends and have built about 5 sub boxes all sealed . The reason they are not that big is because the factory specs say so . If I wanted to make the box bigger I would not get the best bass out of it .
There are many new subs on the marker today any where from 6ohm down to 2ohm . From looking at car subs compared to HT subs car subs seem built stronger for harder play .
Whats the advantage to using a 8ohm HT sub compared to a 4ohm HT sub ?- Bottom
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Well, I built my car enclosure as sealed because I like the sound of a sealed enclosure better.
I also know you can hit a sealed enclosure with more wattage than ported; something about the cone having better movement control or something.
With my JL sub, I used the suggested volume from JL's web site. I designed the enclosure with the width and height of my trunk and calculated the depth to come to the volume they suggested. This way, I saved a lot of trunk space.
I don't know bout car subs being "stronger" then HT subs. I think that will all depend on which sub your talking about.
.....Or are you talking material of the basket here? Obviously a car sub will endure harsher environment conditions than an HT sub, so you would expect the basket of a sub designed for automobile use to be somewhat weather resistant.
An 8 Ohm sub won't put as much of a load on your amp, and some say it will sound cleaner; but I challenge you to hear the difference in clarity between an 8 and 4 Ohm sub; especially below 50/80Hz.
A 4 Ohm sub will put more of a load on your amp, and will pull more Wattage from it. Make sure your amp can handle a 4 Ohm load before you hook one up though!
Thomas.- Bottom
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Tibor
There is no inherent sonic advantage to 4 ohm vs 8 ohm drivers. The speaker's impedance determines the output power from the amp.
There are good and bad quality home woofers, just as there are good and bad quality car drivers. Stating one type is by definition better, is not true. Primarily the drivers are more similar than they are different.
theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson- Bottom
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I also know you can hit a sealed enclosure with more wattage than ported; something about the cone having better movement control or something
Actually it's the other way around. The sealed box creates significantly greater cone excursion than the ported box. And they "require" more power to reach a given output as compared to a ported box
If you want a guick and dirty test of this, just power up a ported box, look at the excursion, then plug the port. The excursion will usually just about double.
theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson- Bottom
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Really? Wow, I guess I was told wrong then.
I assumed it to be true (I know, ASSUME = ASS out of ME and U ) because I worked out some sort of crazy logic in my head to support it.
I figured when the driver hits, you get a low pressure inside the box, right? If the enclosure is sealed, that pressure will be pretty low stopping the driver from moving any further.
I thought in a ported enclosure, when the driver hits, it would reach the same low pressure level inside the box and the port would allow air to rush in bring the pressure level up allowing the driver to move further.
Also, I figured that more cone movement = more air movement = louder bass; and this was why a ported enclosure could reach the same Db as sealed with less wattage (at least that part I got right :B)
This probably sounds kinda crazy to you, so please enlighten me oh wise one
Thomas.- Bottom
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The "advantages" of a ported box over a sealed one are.
1)lower cone excursion
2)lower cut off frequency
3)in theory +3db output
That was the short course here's the long version compliments of V. Dickason "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook"
"A vented loudspeaker is analogous to a 24db/octave cutoff high-pass filter, characterized by an enclosure having an open tunnel or port which allows the passage of air in and out of the box. At low frequencies, the vent contributes substantially to the sound output of the system. It does so however by increasing the acoutics load at the rear of the cone, reducing the cone motion and the output of the driver."
What we have not discussed are the sonic characteristics of the 2 alignments. Sealed boxes are much easier to create as low "Qtc" designs. This is consider to be an advantage by many, myself included. The only bass better than a sealed system, critically damped to a Qtc of 0.5, is that of a true IB, IMHO
theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson- Bottom
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Hey yall.....
I know that there is no way in the hell I would despute what wise one said..... and sitting here thinking about the two designs... I would have sided with Stoop... vented decreases internal pressure build-up that would affect the cones movement, especially with high powered sound requirements..... but that short physics class Thomas gave us shot that theory to hell and back....but what do I know???? :B
Especially from myself, when I was MUCH younger, I just took my old 1970's 100 watt shelf speakers with the 10" drivers, threw them in the back seat of my old '74 Plymouth Valiant and rocked the house (and thought that was cool) !!!!!!!!! :B
P.S. that was a long time ago!!!! :W
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Okay sounds good thanks for the info .
I am running an Orion car amp which is rated to play at 25w x 2 @ 4oms okay but when loaded down it will play at 1ohm at 400watts with a very low distortion rate . So that little amp goes along way and realy gives that sub a work out .- Bottom
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Tibor
The waterheater subs are simply an inexpensive and easy to build a good enclosure. but they aren't real "pretty".
The size of the cabinet is determined by the Vas of the woofer, and the lowest frequency you want it to produce and several other factors. Almost always the bigger the "box" the lower it plays. Also woofers have what's called a resonant frequency the "Fs". This also determines how low they play.
The Fs or resonant frequency of the Shiva is about 21Hz. In a properly design "box", the driver willl play down to 15Hz or lower.
Here's a link to an article on my website about my sub.
If you scroll toward the end of the page you'll see some performance specs. Notice that the Shiva's have output down to 5Hz with this special sub. It's a pure IB or infinite baffle design
theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson- Bottom
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Hey ThomasW thanks for all this info!
So, according to V. Dickason, a ported design will reduce cone movement ..... I guess because the pressure level on the inside is more equal to the pressure level outside -- or something like that
(here I go, trying to figure out why again .... crazy logic, don't fail me now! LOL)
So, which design will give more "accurate" control of the cone? Or does the ported/sealed enclosures even effect accurate control of the woofer?
I have always thought that a sealed enclosure sounded tighter, punchier, and rolled off faster. While a ported enclosure seemed more "boomy".
This could be just my experiences with the enclosures I have heard though ... any thoughts?
Thomas.- Bottom
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Thomas H
It's really the design of the woofer that controls it's performance. The T/S (Theile/Small) parameters tell the story. Drivers with a lower Qts generally are "tighter" and better controlled.
The box alignment of course has an impact. You are correct. Sealed boxes are usually considered to have tighter bass. A proper design ported system will play lower, with less power. Poorly designed ported systems do "boom", primarily due to improper port tuning. Well designed ported systems sound pretty good.
theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson- Bottom
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ok Thomas..... your thought is scaring me about an improperly tuned port.... !!!!! :E
I will knock when its time to install my ports...
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Don't worry your ports are already calculated. Just build them per the Adire plans
There are "measurements" made of the raw speakers. These are a standardized measurement. And they were invented by two men who's last names were Theile and Small. So the measurements are called T/S parameters. One of the T/S parameters is the Qtc. At this point it would be a little too confusing to try and explain it. When your speakers are up and running we can cover T/S parameters. It's engineering and physics so it gets a little deep :B
theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson- Bottom
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T
Thanks for the technical warning !!!
Hopefully by Monday the woodman will buzz me with an estimate.
In your opinion, what would be a reasonable cost per box (two vented and one sealed 281's) ???
(assembled without finish) so I know or not if i am getting ripped off or not....
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LB
I truly don't have a clue. I posted a link on the other thread. It covers Mike Knapp building the sealed center channel. He talks about cabinet cost there.
theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson- Bottom
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Little Bruce,,
Its hard to try to figure out the cost of the boxs. You could cost out the material and that would be a start . When th company I work for build kitchens we try to figure out cost of material then there is a small mark up on that .
Plus the hours for making all the cut's and machining parts . Hard to say . Find out what he chargers and hour , then the matrial needed cost .
That should give you a ballpark price .- Bottom
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