A possible new project...

[AndrewM]

Ok, well since I've started on construction of my current project it's time to start thinking about the next one

I'd normally curse the total lack of service I get at one of our local high-end chain stores, but this weekend it kind of worked out to my advantage as I got to sit in one of the rooms and play around a little bit. And I still can't help it, but I just love the sound that those Martin Logans make (at least from x-over on up), the mids and highs are just really pleasing to my ears, and coming from all the same place with no x-overs anywhere in there to muddle things up (maybe that's just imagined) it just sounds good.

So I remember bookmarking a spot on the web a few months ago called Just Real Music, and he sells ESL panels and all the associated stuff to go with them (transormers, x-overs, etc), for a fairly decent price (compared to retail, a real DIY could do better I'm sure), for instance a price of $945 get's you;

Model-3 16-in. x 48in. ESL Panels oak hardwood frame pair assembled
Bias supply 2.5-kv one pair assembled
M299a ESL transformers pair
ESL 200hz Crossovers a pair assembled
Speaker binding post on crossover board

So all you have to do is add the bass module, I've seen a few options that way, I saw one of the people who have bought from him made a pair of open baffle towers with 8" mid-bass's I believe, the company also sells some di-pole bass drivers, etc.

So my biggest beef with Martin Logans is the transition from the ESL panel to the cone drivers, it seems they've fallen into the same problem that a lot of these speakers fall into in that price range, in that they are trying to do to much with them. The bass just sounds a little to boomy/sloppy for my tastes, so I think they traded a little to much SQ for some extra extension down low, with a DIY setup I could work around that problem.

So has anybody heard of these things? Or better if anybody has heard them, do you think I'll get close to that midrange and highrange detail and clarity that I so love about the Martin Logans? Is there something else worth looking at? I still haven't gone out yet and listened to Maggies, mostly because the local dealer (the only dealer for a long, long way) is one of those make an appointment and we'll have them setup for you, and I don't really want to waste his time for something that I'm not truly serious about (although after I listen to them, that viewpoint may change).

Thoughts?

Andrew

[efarstad]

Andrew: I have a pair of ML SL-3's and love them. Many, like you, have wondered or commented on the bass module of the Martins. I have found with the right amp the sound is not muddy/boomy at all. Of course it's all in the "ears" of the beholder. If your not getting the low end kick that you want, you could always add a seperate sub to go with them.

I know of many who have bi-amped the martins to also solve the "bass problem." Use a hi-powered solid state amp to run the bass module and then a real clean/neutral tube or solid state for the panel and you'll really notice the difference compared to just using one amp for both.

On your DIY ESL site/comments. Looks like an interesting site and could possibly work out pretty nice. One thing to consider is that FLAT ESL panels do sound different from the Martin Logan "curved" panels....ML has sole proprietary development of curved panels since they invented it, so noone else can offer curved ESL's until like 40 yrs from now or something...anyway, my point. Flat vs. Curved panels will give you a different listening experience, so I would go test the maggies since they are the closest thing to Flat ESL's out there...

Ok, that's my rambling. Don't know if I helped at all, but there you go. Some nice ML's can be found at Audiogon for decent prices if you decide to go that route.

E





The Norwegian A/V Nut!
E-Cinema

[Andrew Pratt]

I'll start by saying as a maggie fan you owe it to yourself to at least give them a listen...the 1.6 are a true gem at the price they go for.

Another option to the ESL array might be to look at the BG ribbons mated to a bass modual. i'll let Thomas fill in the details though since he's the expert

[AndrewM]

Andrew: I have a pair of ML SL-3's and love them. Many, like you, have wondered or commented on the bass module of the Martins. I have found with the right amp the sound is not muddy/boomy at all. Of course it's all in the "ears" of the beholder. If your not getting the low end kick that you want, you could always add a seperate sub to go with them.

Well, I don't care about the low end grunt of them (I'm about +/- 2db from 17Hz to 80Hz with my sub), which I think is the real problem with them, they try to go to deep. In the process they take away to much from the mid-bass region which kind of ruins the transition to the panel.

Now take that with a grain of salt as well, they do sound very good and if I wasn't scared off by the almost $7k price tag on the Odyssey's I was looking at, I'd be more than happy with a pair. I just think they could be better.

I know of many who have bi-amped the martins to also solve the "bass problem." Use a hi-powered solid state amp to run the bass module and then a real clean/neutral tube or solid state for the panel and you'll really notice the difference compared to just using one amp for both.

I think you'd actually need to do the opposite, the panel is going to have some nice impedence swings and it's not very effecient (well the woofer would be matching in effeciency as well). I listened to them (Ascent and Odyssey) on the top end Yamaha reciever, a B&K stereo pre-amp and 2-channel amp, and finally on a Krell KAV amp and 2-channel pre-amp. It did sound very good on all of those, between the B&K and the Krell it sounded best but I didn't have any material with me that I was familiar with that I could really sit and listen to (that and the room wasn't that well setup).

On your DIY ESL site/comments. Looks like an interesting site and could possibly work out pretty nice. One thing to consider is that FLAT ESL panels do sound different from the Martin Logan "curved" panels....ML has sole proprietary development of curved panels since they invented it, so noone else can offer curved ESL's until like 40 yrs from now or something...anyway, my point. Flat vs. Curved panels will give you a different listening experience, so I would go test the maggies since they are the closest thing to Flat ESL's out there...

I think the reason for the curved panel was to increase the sweat spot. But don't quote me on that one.

Andrew

[ThomasW]

Andrew
take a look at THESE

Don't know of the Metaxas panels are still available. But if they are they are better than a DIY build from scratch kit IMO. Up to 4 panels/side can be powered by the stock transformers. They have adequate LFE output so that a standard 100Hz XO point can be used to a sub.

I'm not a fan of any speaker design that has a XO in the midbass. I've never heard a hybrid that had a seamless transition between the panel and the woofer.

Something else to consider is as AndrewP suggested, Maggies. The MG1.6 is a pretty amazing loudspeaker for the price.

efarstad

ML doesn't own a generic patent on curved ESL panels. Checkout SoundLab ESL IMHO they are the world finest ESL panels




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[AndrewM]

Thanks Thomas for the link, I've seen the Metaxas site before in the past (but totally forgotten about it).

Have you ever had a chance to listen to these ESL's? I'm certainly interested in the 100Hz-40+Khz with no x-over's, sounds almost to good to be true.

Andrew

[JonMarsh]

An issue often overlooked when trying to mate an ESL panel to a "small" woofer assembly in the 200H region or so, is that the ESL is essentially a "line array", and depending on the size, operates in "near field" mode for a substantial distance. This means the output drops off at about 3 dB per every doubling of the distance, not 6 dB as for a "point source" dynamic speaker. So, inherently, you can only "balance" such a system at one distance; elsewhere, it will be compromised.

The other issue overlooked is the ideal positioning of the midbass driver- generally, it's NOT 14-18" off the floor (where it usually winds up), because of early reflections from the floor that cause comb filtering in the upper bass and lower midrange. Even many conventional commercial speakers have problems with this- one of the best ways to improve the early 800 series B&W and the old DM6 was to put it on stands getting the woofer up to at least 24-28 " off the floor.

In other words, it's not really the "speed" of the woofer that's typically the problem, its the net frequency balance (or lack thereof) at the listener position in a real listening room - not an anechoic chamber.

So, to make something like this work well and integrate, a 100 Hz crossover is much better, and the sub should be clean to close to 200 Hz. Othwise you get phase shift and other goofy things that mess up the transistion between the sub and panels.

One point to keep in mind; full range flat ESL panels are VERY beamy in the top end. They can be very transparent and revealing, so the same kind of caveats I give regarding electronics for speakers like Avalon Acoustics apply. Think tube, or high end zero loop feedback solid state (Ayre, Theta, BAT).

Best regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[ThomasW]

Andrew

Nope never heard them. I think the 40Khz is a little optimistic All ESL's I've heard were relatively soft on the very high end.

But a fullrange ESL will go from 40Hz to 20Khz without too much problem. They aren't happy functioning below about 100Hz with any significant SPL's. That's unless the panels are HUGE. And the wider the panel the narrower the sweet spot




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[AndrewM]

Would building an mid-bass box of say 4 or 6 drivers in an array (similiar to what Thomas did/is doing with the Eton drivers) alleviate some of the problems of the point vs line source problem?

Of course we've just ruled out that whole possibility, having a 16-20 inch wide panel and then another box sitting next to it won't go over very well in the WAF.

Of course she said the same thing when I first showed her pictures of Maggies, that didn't go over well. Then we saw them in the store and I told her that they will sound closer to the Martin Logans than any of the "box" speakers she's heard, the sales guy pretty much agreed with that, and also explained they sound better her eyes lit up.

Andrew

[ThomasW]

It doesn't make sense to use a cone line array with ESL panels like the Metaxas or a similar DIY panel. There just isn't the need for that much displacement in the midbass region, unless you want a wall of sound and low SAF

The benefit of a 'fullrange' ESL or a midsize Maggie is the ability to use only an outboard sub to augment the bottom end




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio