The assembly droids were busy this weekend

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    The assembly droids were busy this weekend

    You know, maybe I'm too old to be assembling 70 lb bookshelf speakers. Maybe 70 lb speakers aren't bookshelf speakers! :E

    OK Lex, here's those honey Oak/blonde Oak ones I was promising...





    The first pair of M8's MkIII's were completed, after several voicing sessions with the test box, and a dB here, a could of hundred Hz there, to "finalize" the crossover.






    Rear of the enclosure, showing new port mounting, and modified binding cups with "Vampire" binding posts.




    Front, showing aluminum/magnesium midwoofer and Focal Tc120dx2 tweeter, with non-patented diffraction control.






    Complete speaker with front grill, as my honey will use them. (shame to hide all those nice drivers, but most of the ladies have a different idea of home decorating than I do.... :B

    Now if only we could figure out a way to make the Sony CD player, Denon preamp, and Denon monoblocks sound more like my MP DAC and Ayre amplifier... :?


    -Jon




    Earth First!
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    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....
  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10934

    #2
    Hey there a pair of those in my basement. But someone forgot to install the XO's and drivers.... " :LOL:




    theAudioWorx
    Klone-Audio

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

    Comment

    • Lex
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Apr 2001
      • 27461

      #3
      Great job! Shoot, just get her a pair of Bose, and keep those perty things. lol.

      Lex
      Doug
      "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

      Comment

      • Steve Goff
        Senior Member
        • Feb 2002
        • 186

        #4
        I've been following your progress with this design, and it looks like you've got a winner! I'm curious about one of your design choices, though: you've spaced the tweeter and the midwoof fairly far apart. Was this a choice, or a necessity for placing the port near the center on the rear baffle? How does the spacing affect response off axis vertically?

        Again, congratulations on your new babies.




        Steve Goff
        Steve Goff

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15259

          #5
          Hi Steve,

          Good points you raise, there are always options for shuffling the drivers around; for example, the port could be higher in the back, and the tweeter lower.

          There are several considerations:
          • Relative time and phase offset of drivers+network, and how that lines up as far as "focal plane" in the crossover region- this affects the "launch angle" in the crossover region, which is ~1.5 kHz
          • Diffraction interaction between tweeter and woofer; the lower end of the tweeter passband develops a cleaner launch if it has more "clean" baffle to work on. (Check out the driver spacing on the Avalon Arcus versus the original Eclipse). Note that the tweeter is also lower on the baffle, i.e., farther from the top.
          • Baffle integrity and siffness - holes closer together requires more extreme measures for the front panel.
          • My first test box measured did have the woofer and tweeter located in close proximity
          • As designed and evaulated, these have been used on some speaker stands which provide some slight cabinet tilt.






          This has not been a "typical" DIY project, I think, because it has undergone and will continue to undergo a level of development and refinement (hopefully!) which is usually only reserved for manufacturing development. (Bullwinkle J. Moose strikes again! Or, if at first you don't succeed, be stubborn.) I don't think of this project as something developing "final solutions", but rather a different way to revisit some topics and problems investigated in the past on a hobbyist basis, but without quite the same level of tools I currently have. (not just test equipment and software upgrades, but insights and experience).

          Already I plan to revisit my X1 SLAMM Klones, with revisions to the existing top module, and possibly a whole new module design. The latter will have to wait for a lot more spare time on my hands than I've had lately!

          And there's these C44 Accuton Mids I've been playing with- do I make a three way with them and a pair of the aluminum/magnesium midwoofers? And which tweeter? Crossing over above 4-5 kHz, I'd be tempted to go with the Audax DTI01, the ambient tweeter in the Klones.

          And I'm still fooling around with my MkII, with the Accuton and Eton drivers. Bullwinkle would be proud, but I still haven't found the rabbit up my sleeve.

          Wish I could retire from my day job....



          Best regards,

          Jon




          Earth First!
          _______________________________
          We'll screw up the other planets later....
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
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          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • Steve Goff
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2002
            • 186

            #6
            You make a good point about diffraction interaction between the tweeter and the woofer. This can cause some significant response aberations, although some of that could be dealt with by giving your tweeter a felt goatee to go with its mutton chops. Its always interesting to learn why folks make their design choices. I suspect there will be several happy builders of your design.




            Steve Goff
            Steve Goff

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15259

              #7
              Yeah, Steve, that tweeter area could wind up looking pretty strange with all the felt bits! I've experimented with a variety of configurations. But you know, that space between the tweeter and woofer would be a good place to slot in an Accuton C44. And I've worked out a crossover conept that looks promising, the elliptic filter at about 900 - 1 kHz, and an asymmetric crossover around 4-5 kHz, a minimal delay 3rd order high pass on the tweeter, and a first order moving to bessel second order on the mid.

              Frankly, looking at all the diffraction issues with different enclosure sizes and shapes sometimes put's me back in favor of another pass at something like the Legacy Whisper Klones that I helped ThomasW with. It's a nice clean "launch" platform, literally!
              We're kicking around a lot of dipole speaker idea's, but nothing's jelled yet. I'd actually like to do something a little smaller and simpler, more like the Audio Artistry Vivaldi, which apart from some of the driver choices seems a great tradeoff between complexity and performance. (I've used the 8" ScanSpeak Kevlar, and I can't see using them with a conventional crossover at 1500 Hz crossover- cone modes).

              But dipoles are a skosh big and expensive for many applicatiions. This current project has been a search for getting as nice a speaker as possible in a compact package that would do 100 - 105 dB peaks comfortably, while passing on as much of the detail of the music as possible. So, there will probably be another spin or two on this box before we're done.

              Best regards,

              Jon




              Earth First!
              _______________________________
              We'll screw up the other planets later....
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
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              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
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              SMJ
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              In Development...
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              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • Pat
                Super Senior Member
                • Aug 2000
                • 1637

                #8
                Jon,
                They look great!
                How do they sound?




                Pat's Page
                Pat's Page

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15259

                  #9
                  Hi Pat!

                  The weird thing is, I've had very little time to listen to a "pair" of them- I spent a lot of time listening, measuring, and voicing the crossover using my test mule box; what you see in the pictures above is one of the finished pair which went to my ladyfriends' on Sunday. Yup, they were "deliverable items", as we'd say back in my military industrial complex days (ex mil/aero power supply designer).

                  The trick was fine tuning the baffle step and mid to tweeter balance, as well as a little "audiophile/BBC dip". They have very wide dispersion because of the low crossover I get away with (1.5 kHz) using an elliptic filter tuned to emulate an 8th order L-R network. (but with a LOT less components)(sort of my spin on an "infinite slope crossover", but not infinite, obviously). So, there isn't typical woofer beaming to reduce the room power in the presence region. This requires some care in voicing, so that typical close miked stuff (especially classical that isn't distant miked) doesn't sound too hard or too up front. Ideally, I'd just like to have perfectly flat recordings, and perfectly flat speakers, but we don't live in a world where that seems possible, yet.

                  They are very detailed and clear in the mids- voices and instruments float in space (with the right gear). The bass is fairly deep for an 8", but tight, going down to the mid to low 30's, before breakin), but not heavy with the room placement I use (these aren't bookshelf's meant to be placed near a wall, but rather used on stands, in a location like the CARDAS setup recommendations- that's how the baffle step is voiced). Transients on all kinds of instruments are sharp and well delineated, without edginess. Piano and standup bass, as well as percussion instruments, are very focussed and well delineated. Acoustic guitar "strums" resolve each string better than any other speaker I've built or heard in some time- probably lack of cone breakup. My goal all along was to get tonality and transparency similar to an Avalon Eclipse or Arcus, in a smaller, somewhat lighter enclosure; I think I'm pretty close to that now. This version is more transparent and detailed in the midrange and the deep bass than the one using the Eton 8-800 midwoofer, and the Accuton tweeters. The Accuton may have a slight advantage over the Focal- I haven't listened enough to have a firm opinion, but at half the cost, the TC120dx2 is more than holding it's own with the current crossover. (voicing and associated electronics are important. Actually, I'm listening to the "old" MkII's as I write, they sound very good, but they don't have that "right here" quality that voices had with the new ones).




                  I do notice that when playing just one, and pushing it to the levels that you'd usually listen to a pair of speakers, transients sound "hard", in that there's a lot of impact, maybe due to lacking compression or breakup in the cone? Nothing flexing to soften it? But it also could be that there's some lingering resonance in the upper end of the cone (it peaks about 2.8 kHz) that isn't fully suppressed with the crossover, which is down 6 dB at 1.5 kHz, 30 dB at 2 kHz, and about -50 dB at 2.8 kHz. But then maybe 105 dB from a single speaker like this isn't reasonable, either!


                  Material I used for listening checks included:

                  Grace In Gravity, group of same name;
                  Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, Joni Mitchell
                  Play Bach, Jacque Loussier Trio
                  This is Me, Emily Remmler
                  No Angel, Dido
                  Blue Hats, Yellow Jackets
                  Red, Young Dubliners
                  Temptation, Holly Cole
                  Famous Blue Raincoat, Jennifer Warnes
                  Beyond Words, Oregon
                  Out of the Cradle, Lindsey Buckingham
                  Cafe Blue, Patricia Barber
                  Solace, Sarah McLachlan
                  Arcanum, Acoustic Alchemy
                  Stringweave, Strunz & Farah
                  Hourglass, James Taylor



                  Associated Equpiment for listening
                  • Source: Sony SCD777ES, as SACD player and transport
                  • DAC: custom built and modified MP-DAC, from APN audio
                  • Digital Interconnect: Custom, using DH Labs components
                  • Analog interconnects: Custom, using Cardas and Audioquest components
                  • Preamp: Modified Marchand PR-41 passive preamp
                  • Amplifier: Ayre V-5, 150W/ch @ 8 ohms
                  • Speaker cables: Custom using Kimber 8TC, WBT connectors



                  What's a bit unique or unusual about this equipment lineup, is that there isn't a global feedback loop anywhere input to output, in CD mode. This is the closest I've heard to CD sounding close to SACD, other than an Ayre D1- which also uses no global feedback.

                  Somedays I feel like I'm getting a little too weird with my current equipment tastes, sort of like, audio Jihad against global feedback. But ask Thomas and Dennis, who've also been exposed to the bug, now, and either have their own V-5's or have one on the way.

                  Best regards,

                  Jon




                  Earth First!
                  _______________________________
                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
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                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                  Calliope CC Supreme
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                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • Steve Goff
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2002
                    • 186

                    #10
                    Jon,

                    That is a great list of recordings for listening checks. Long ago when I designed my own speakers I used Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, and Oregon's Roots in the Sky. Joni's voice and guitar on that song can tell you a lot, as can Glen Moore's bass. By the way, that Ayre amp sounds great, even better than the V-1X.




                    Steve Goff
                    Steve Goff

                    Comment

                    • Pat
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 1637

                      #11
                      Jon,
                      Great report!
                      Thanks for the list of recordings, I only have Cafe Blue, but I think I will check into some of the others




                      Pat's Page
                      Pat's Page

                      Comment

                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 15259

                        #12
                        It is funny about how good the V-5 is, considering that when Charles started developing it, the concept was "build a good amp using NLFB concepts, but built more to a price-which will involve compromises, like the bipolar output transistors".

                        I turned him on the special FET outputs which are used in the V1/V1-X; I'd used them in a pro amp design I'd done for a client in the late 90's. Charles had strong biases against bipolar transistors, but then, he'd never listened to them in an NLFB configuration, and many of the bipolar amps out there do mis design the output stage, even when doing a basic emitter follower triple. Properly designed, the linearity and strength of an output stage using the extended beta devices produced by Toshiba and Sanken and second sourced by On Semi will usually beat the transfer function of conventional FET follower output stage- (which is why the one I did for my client was a compound design with a high bias FET class A driver).

                        The trick with the current Ayre design was getting the whole wideband output stage completely stable and free of parasitic oscillations, with capacitive loads without an output inductor while not using base input resistors, which while commonly used, deteriorate linearity and compromise the sound. The method was to go back to old RF vacuum tube techniques, for stabilizing an amplifier driving a capacitive load. When I was a kid of 12 and 13, I used to practically live with my AARRL handbook- it's interesting what can come in useful later on.

                        In my write up last night I mentioned the gear I was using because you've got to have very clean source to evaluate a good speaker; often the ills of mid-fi components are laid at the feet of revealing speakers.

                        At my girlfriends, they don't sound as good, but fortunately the Denon Preamp and 150 watt Denon monoblocks have mostly sins of ommision, rather than commission, so the sound is just somewhat darker and veiled, and less defined overall, but not too edgy or grainy per se- other than the older Sony CD player. I may have to leave my XA7ES, just back from the shop, rather permanently over there.

                        We're going to take some of the "good stuff" over to her place this weekend, to show her how they sound with more optimal equipment.

                        Let's hope she let's me take the gear back home after we're done listening! :LOL:

                        Regards,

                        Jon




                        Earth First!
                        _______________________________
                        We'll screw up the other planets later....
                        the AudioWorx
                        Natalie P
                        M8ta
                        Modula Neo DCC
                        Modula MT XE
                        Modula Xtreme
                        Isiris
                        Wavecor Ardent

                        SMJ
                        Minerva Monitor
                        Calliope
                        Ardent D

                        In Development...
                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                        Obi-Wan
                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                        Modula PWB
                        Calliope CC Supreme
                        Natalie P Ultra
                        Natalie P Supreme
                        Janus BP1 Sub


                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                        Comment

                        • Mark K
                          Senior Member
                          • Feb 2002
                          • 388

                          #13
                          they look great-how about attaching a .wav file so we can all hear them :P

                          seriously, if you were going to make a MKIV, or if you could try another tweeter with the same lf unit, what others might you try?

                          mark
                          www.audioheuristics.org

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15259

                            #14
                            My present plan, since this is as much about evaluating alternatives, as it is making a finished design, is to continue evaluations in a Mk IV. Another set of woofers is on the way- for the time, I'm sticking with the HiVi M8, as I like it's balance of pistonic behavior to beyond 2 kHz, and the general T/S parameters, which affect LF performance. It's a little lower on the efficiency side than I would like but that's the trade off for the stiffer cone and LF extension in this size box (about 44 L working volume.

                            It would be natural to pair this driver with the Accuton C23 in another two way, as that tweeter is a little more comfortable lower down, but the HF extension doesn't seem quite as good as the Focal.

                            Another tweeter that would bear investigating using this network topology is the Vifa/Scanspeak XT25. Many folks report they don't like using it down low, but they seem to often try it with low order networks, and without a full LF zobel- which is likely a recipe for poor results. The only thing that bothers me about this tweeter (besides it's current ubiquitousness in recent introductions from Krell, Polk, and others ) is the transistion from a concentric radiator to just the center radiator; clever, but not pistonic, and could present some problems. But I haven't heard it yet, so I can't really comment. I'm just speculating.


                            So, in the spirit of John Kleese, "And now, something entirely different...."

                            I'm going to go ahead with a three way of sorts, using the C44 2" inverted dome mid, and since I have some around (convenience is a heck of a persuader sometimes) I'm going to use the AudAX DTI01, which I and Wilson used as the "super tweeter" in the X1- their original and my Klone. The concept I've been simulating is a lower mid crossover around 900 Hz, using my steep network topology, but probably only a 6th order equivalent network, and a gentler crossover around 5-6 kHz, where the off axis dispersion of the C44 starts to fall. What I've been simulating is an asymmetric topology with a third order bessel high pass on the tweeter, and a 1st order on the mid, which becomes modified an octave higher to a bit steeper network. Of course, what you can get to look good on the computer, may not sound as you'd like. :?

                            But these C44's have been sitting around collecting measurments for too long without going into a box I can listen to- time to change that! 8)

                            Now, there's no reason I couldn't use any number of tweeters- while I think every tweeter has a characteristic sound, this can be shaped to a degree in voicing the network. As long as the efficiency is up to the rest of the design. So, I could use a Focal on the top, for example. The Audax has a smooth extended top end; it's main drawback is the relatively high primary resonance at 1700 Hz; which is why I'd never use it in a two way. One thing I like about both the Focal TC120dx2 and the Audax are their efficiency; at 93-94 dB, you do have to pad them down in most systems, but you rarely are in danger of power burn out or dynamic compression with them! :B

                            Cabinets are started, most drivers are here (woofers are shipped, but not yet arrived), and once I finalize the proposed xover design after another set of driver measurements, I'll get the inductors in line.

                            The MkIV may be the last version for a few weeks, I'm also starting a dipole design, which will probably use the upper end of either the MkIV or MkIII. I should be picking up the wood tonight for that- if I'm not too tired after work! :LOL:

                            Best regards,

                            Jon




                            Earth First!
                            _______________________________
                            We'll screw up the other planets later....
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • Brian Bunge
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Nov 2001
                              • 1389

                              #15
                              Jon,

                              Would making the cabinet shorter but deeper (achieving the same internal volume) cause any negative affect to the sound of these speakers? I know changing the baffle dimensions is not a good idea most of the time but I wonder if this would be a problem as long as the width is the same.

                              BTW, what are the external dimensions of those cabinets?

                              Thanks,

                              Brian

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15259

                                #16
                                Hi Brian,

                                I don't think it would make a signficant change; in my mind, deeper is better, because you have a longer depth to absorb/damp the midrange back wave. The baffle step frequency is set by the shorted dimension, which is the width.


                                For reference, these are 12" wide, 14.5" deep, and 25" tall.

                                ThomasW is constructing a sealed box set in smaller cabinets, which are 10-1/2" wide, 12" deep, and 19" tall. This is a roughly 24L volume cabinet, and the box Fb is about 58 Hz, with a Q of 0.658 with the HiVi M8a driver. (assuming moderately heavy stuffing). In actuality, with the crossover and driver volume, it will be right about 0.707 at 60Hz. Since Thomas will be using a sub at around 100 Hz, that should work fine. Even this small a design could be voiced for fairly decent in room response to 50Hz, by judicious selection of the distance from wall boundary (so that room lift occurs below 60 Hz, and using appropriate baffle step compensation to voice for in room response. Still, that's not as deep or clean as the vented approach I think, though it is a "nicer size". Tom's will be voiced for wall mounting, a different set of tradeoffs.

                                Best regards,

                                Jon




                                Earth First!
                                _______________________________
                                We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
                                M8ta
                                Modula Neo DCC
                                Modula MT XE
                                Modula Xtreme
                                Isiris
                                Wavecor Ardent

                                SMJ
                                Minerva Monitor
                                Calliope
                                Ardent D

                                In Development...
                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                Obi-Wan
                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                Modula PWB
                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                Natalie P Ultra
                                Natalie P Supreme
                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • Mark K
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Feb 2002
                                  • 388

                                  #17
                                  hi jon

                                  sorry to pester you, so to speak. i was wondering if you had any experience with the human 8" lf driver (005) at www.humanspeakers.com

                                  the TS look similar to the M8a, good sealed, with a nice xmax
                                  i'm more curious about the high end. (all considerations of metal cone v paper cone set aside)
                                  www.audioheuristics.org

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15259

                                    #18
                                    Hi Mark,

                                    I don't have any experience with the Humanspeakers. Interesting name. The epi products were some of the best available in overall engineering at a reasonable price in their time. To the best of my recollection, they did pioneer the concave dome tweeter- which Focal and Accuton continue with. I'd be curious to see/hear one of the Humanspeaker tweeters, though it's operating range is a little higher than I prefer; I usually loof for tweeters with an Fs below 1 kHz. On the otherhand, their's may be- I just didn't see any detailed specs.

                                    What is missing from the site is any frequency response or impedance measurements. T/S parameters is a good start, but even as willing as I am to "buy and try" lots of different things, I like to have *some* idea of what I'm getting into.

                                    He sells 8" two ways, but running an 8 up to 2500 or 2800 is a bit dicy, IMO. You get beaming and other issues, even with a paper cone I would be concerned about cone decoupling and breakup modes. It would be about like running at 6.5" driver up to about 3.5-4 kHz. Some people try to do that, but it's two high, IMO. Of course, I'm the weird guy doing odd crossovers down low- but I'm not too weired; Linkwitz crosses over the ScanSpeak 8's at 1.5 kHz, too. I'm just not brave enough to do it with just a 4th order L-R network!

                                    :idea: Here's an idea for you: make a Watt/Puppy sort of speaker, (like many have done, for example, the Joseph Audio Peral); one of the 6.5" driver and the tweeter in a smallish upper module, to raise the Fs and get it rolling off below 100 or so; then use a couple of the 8's in a good sealed alignment (I think their Qts may be a little high for a ported alignment, but I haven't run the numbers. And what's with the 1.3 Qts 2 ohm driver? That's got to be for car stuff, I bet!). Like the Watt Puppy combo, don't use any baffle step compensation on the 6.5, and roll the 8's off with a first order starting about 125. Because of baffle issues, it won't actually be a 1st order until about 500-700 Hz, and it will do a good job filling in for the 6.5. Not original, but it might work pretty nice, IF there six makes a clean mate to the tweeter. I'm skeptical about the 8 doing that in a two way. :?

                                    If you should get a some of their drivers to test, first thing, do an impedance sweeep, and look at the curve, if there are any serious cone issues, they'll show up as bumps or dips in the impedance curve. It's a dead giveaway- don't even need a microphone. :B

                                    Of course, that may be more speaker than you want to take on- but it could work fairly well.

                                    I respect the concept of his philosophy; I'm just curious as to "where's the beef?"

                                    And I'm on a real kick about keeping in the pistonic range of drivers. The guy who founded Avalon Acoustics used to work for me; I gave him one of my prototypes from the late 70's, when I was working with an older guy to start up a company. Very stiff enclosure walls, and of necessity, relatively limited ranges of operation for each driver-given what was available at that time. The key to Avalon's sound has always been simple- suppress enclosure resonances, and keep the drivers in the pistonic region.

                                    I think a well designed paper driver can sound better working outside of it's optimum region than most plastic cone drivers (I've gotten to really hate polypropylene for a long, time!)- but, if it's in any decoupling or breakup modes, you are loosing inner detail and some of the music. That's why in that day and age, Maneplanars and Quad ESL's were so special- they were the only things I heard at that time that could really do midrange well. And ifyou don't do midrange well, bass and treble doesn't count for much.

                                    Just my 0.02.

                                    Best regards,

                                    Jon




                                    Earth First!
                                    _______________________________
                                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
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                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • Mark K
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Feb 2002
                                      • 388

                                      #19
                                      thanks for the thoughts.

                                      interesting idea about the tweeter and 6.5 with a sealed 8, though that would sidetrack me. but that's ok, i've got some time to kill until my cliowin lite setup shows up (it was on backorder-maybe another 2 weeks or so) so i'm just trying to find good 6.5-8 drivers that work well in a sealed setup.

                                      anyway, i noticed that there were no fr curves on his website. i emailed him, but he probably hasn't had a chance to respond.
                                      you gotta like the one man outfit thing, sort of hiquphonesque. plus, part of the appeal is doing something differently. plus, ldsg gives his 005 the thumbs up, so to speak.

                                      anyway, it might be worth picking up a couple of his 8"'s and test them. i can always find something to do with them if they dont't make a 2-way.

                                      although i too am, well, hmm, he crosses his 2-way 8" and tweeter (with fs=1300) with a first order, i think. ok then.

                                      still, maybe with a different tweeter or a different xover.
                                      www.audioheuristics.org

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15259

                                        #20
                                        We gave these their first trial on home theater duties last night, after I got back from my travel- watched "Fast and Furious", using the HTPC at Yvonne's, with the Philips Acoustic Edge card doing decoding.

                                        Didn't spend any time on setup (just wanted to watch a movie!), and one speaker was off to the side pointed the wrong way...

                                        Rather surprised and pleased, becase the imaging and localization was very solid, with phantom center fill rivaling a dedicated well matched center channel! Compared with the JBL's she's been using for years, this was like moving from one of the smaller Dolby Digital rooms at the Cineplex to the IMAX theater- very large, spacious sound field, with surprising LF extension without a sub. A multichannel setup with several of these would probably be pretty fun!

                                        Regards,

                                        Jon




                                        Earth First!
                                        _______________________________
                                        We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                        the AudioWorx
                                        Natalie P
                                        M8ta
                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                        Modula MT XE
                                        Modula Xtreme
                                        Isiris
                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                        SMJ
                                        Minerva Monitor
                                        Calliope
                                        Ardent D

                                        In Development...
                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                        Obi-Wan
                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                        Modula PWB
                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

                                        • Lex
                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Apr 2001
                                          • 27461

                                          #21
                                          Jon, glad the first real test drive worked out great! Were they as fast as that movie was? Fast and Furious is a pretty good workout too. Were these broken in, or were the drivers still tight?

                                          Lex
                                          Doug
                                          "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15259

                                            #22
                                            No, they're not really "broken in" yet, Yvonne wanted them over before I would have done the usual 50+ hours wired out of phase face to face with pink noise.

                                            I'm going to be taking an Ayre and my digital setup over to her place for photo's and some listening and measuring sessions (to finish the magazine article), but that got bumped this weekend looking at a used Eclipse GSX for her younger son, and measuring some Vifa XT25 tweeters for a friend in a "round robin" (they're going to Sigfried Linkwitz next, I've only got them this weekend).

                                            We watched "Say Anything" last weekend, and haven't decided on tonights fare- I'm probably going to take over an 8008X3BB for the movie. Some of these will eventually be my surround's, I think- and I've got a new idea for a DIY set of stands which I started this weekend- inspired by how even my "old" MKII's sound placed on the X1 bass bins. I haven't had a chance to try an optimum setup for a sonic "block buster", yet, but when I finish the stands next week, we'll have to try something- at least briefly. The funny thing is, there are so many movie tracks with different virtues- TPM is good for effects, but then "The Third Miracle" has one of the best recorded musical scores I've ever heard.

                                            Any suggestions for a great overall sound track (of course, there's always "Fifth Element", which her youngest son loves, and she's come to loathe- Superbit or not!)

                                            -Jon




                                            Earth First!
                                            _______________________________
                                            We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                            the AudioWorx
                                            Natalie P
                                            M8ta
                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                            Modula MT XE
                                            Modula Xtreme
                                            Isiris
                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                            SMJ
                                            Minerva Monitor
                                            Calliope
                                            Ardent D

                                            In Development...
                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                            Obi-Wan
                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                            Modula PWB
                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • Lex
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Apr 2001
                                              • 27461

                                              #23
                                              Great Jon,so your new DIY speakers are headed to a Magazine? Which one, we want details!

                                              yeah, I can see where most women could tire of 5th Element pretty quickly, lol.

                                              Lex
                                              Doug
                                              "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 15259

                                                #24
                                                A summary article/preview was written regarding the MkI version for AudioXpress; they like that a lot, but we agreed that since Focal and MB Quart had issues regarding driver phase outs, I would do a further development for a final article. That led to the MkII and the MkIII and MkIIIa (mini version). The latter are in "beta test" being built and evaulated by some others besides myself. So far, so good!
                                                The last piece of the puzzle looks like it will be some DIY stands, which a first set are in construction.

                                                -Jon




                                                Earth First!
                                                _______________________________
                                                We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                the AudioWorx
                                                Natalie P
                                                M8ta
                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                Modula MT XE
                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                Isiris
                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                SMJ
                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                Calliope
                                                Ardent D

                                                In Development...
                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                Obi-Wan
                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                Modula PWB
                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                Comment

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