Help needed for novice building new system

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  • Little Bruce
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2000
    • 166

    Help needed for novice building new system

    Howdy yall,

    First visit to FYI, and quite impressed to say the least. I knew the speaker aspect of the home theater was a big deal, but damn......
    Anyway, new to the forum.... and very impressed.:B
    Being a novice and overhauling my system, I am looking for a speaker setup including sub for $500-750 for a base system. I know this a broad question, but i need to start somewhere.




  • Little Bruce
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2000
    • 166

    #2
    Thomas,
    I beleive i will take your advice with your speaker recommendation. Question though....
    they list three different styles of boxes..
    sealed, vented, and transmission line.
    Any insight on the advantages, disadvantages to theses different styles? :?
    I read Mikes post about his green machines, looks impressive for sure.




    Comment

    • ThomasW
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2000
      • 10934

      #3
      Hi, welcome to the magical world of DIY audio

      Sealed is the easiest to build, ported a little more difficult, but not really all that much. TL's are interesting, but not for a beginner, and they like BIG amps.

      Follow Mike Knapps lead if your going to spend your budget all at one time. But do the following. Build exactially the same configurations Mike did. The ported double 8" for mains. Sealed double 8" for center, and sealed single 8" for rears.

      These 5 speakers come in at about $750 excluding cabinets. Just make painted MDF boxes and you'll get all 5 for under $800. You can veneer or finish them with laminate in the future.

      This 5 speaker system will smoke most $3500+ retail packages.

      If you can't afford all 5 at once then start with the dual 8" ported mains, http://www.adireaudio.com/cd/kit281.htm, then add the "effects" speakers as time/money allows.

      Don't get a sub right now. A good one isn't in your budget. With all the 8" drivers you'll have plenty of bass to start out especially since you aren't yet "spoiled".

      When you have a couple hundred more, then add the sub. Trust me on this, it's more important to have solid regular speakers without a sub, than have marginal speakers with a sub.

      Use the instructions/plans off the Adire site, combined with the posts Mike made for his projects. If you get stuck just let us know. There aren't very many problems we can't solve.

      Also remember to have fun making them




      theAudioWorx
      Klone-Audio

      IB subwoofer FAQ page


      "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

      Comment

      • KennyG
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Sep 2000
        • 745

        #4
        I'd like to add one more thought, if $800 is still a little to much at this time, think about building just your front sound stage...mains and center.
        Then use the speakers you own at this time as the surrounds, later you can build a better set of surrounds. It really is important not to skimp on the "voice" of your system. I feel it is better to build a premium set of speakers over time, than to rush into a "less than premium" set to save one or two hundred bucks now.
        I notice Mike Knapp has posted here...(hi Mike!) he is a good person to talk to about this, as his first venture into speaker building were in fact this very same speakers! (I think)
        AND they look very cool...green, but cool!

        Comment

        • Little Bruce
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2000
          • 166

          #5
          Question yall.....:?
          "inpedence value? 4ohms or 8 ohms...
          I understand the logistics of electricity and I know the term ohms refers to the resistant value of a circut. So how do you involve this value to rating a particular speaker? From my point, I think I understand that a four ohm speaker takes so much wattage to push the speaker. Is there a preference to a four or eight ohm speaker?
          And second, does anybody have a pic of a simple crossover to view? I would really like a pic to study for understanding how the connection points should be.




          Comment

          • ThomasW
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 10934

            #6
            LB

            There is not a "qualitative" difference between 4 vs 8 ohm speakers.

            Impedence is the load the speaker places on the amp. Generally the lower the impedence the more power the amp outputs.

            There is a complete photo "how to " that Mike Knapp did for these speakers it includes the crossovers






            theAudioWorx
            Klone-Audio

            IB subwoofer FAQ page


            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

            Comment

            • Little Bruce
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2000
              • 166

              #7
              Thomas,
              Great link to Mike's speaker saga over there in that "other" forum. :B
              Must hand it to him for taking the time to document and picturize his diy for us "dont know what the hell were doing" kind of people !!!! :B
              It seems the more I read about yall diy'ers and the projects taken on, I believe the fever has definitely taken me over down here in the boonies....(I am also a hard core dirt track fan/racer and its taken a backseat!!!).....:B
              I believe i will start making some inquires to a couple of local wood shops about cutting my frame work (as mentioned before.....no tools for wood).
              MAY THE FORCE BE WITH ME !!!!
              I must thank yall who have started this new cancer in my blood..... too which there seems to be no cure .................lolololol :B




              Comment

              • Little Bruce
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2000
                • 166

                #8
                Hey......couple of questions just popped up....:?

                I just recieved my lasted issue of Crutchfield mag (i use it for hardware reference).....
                i noted that the listing for speaker, high or low quality dont list anything for crossover specs or like wise....is that sensitive info that manufactors keep to themselves? They list wattages, rms and frequency levels and sensitivity levels..... in yalls professional opinions..... how do kit81 and kit281 rate in these aspects?

                I also read in that "other" forum....despite the high quality of these kits....they might sound "large" for a surround setup verses music setup.... and finally.....(haha..i doubt it) what would you recommend the wattage supply be to these units? :?
                (full of ingnorant questions tonight)




                Comment

                • ThomasW
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 10934

                  #9
                  If I understand the question, you're asking how do the Adire speakers compare to assembled ones?

                  Well, I used to be in the speaker mfging business and I'll let you in on a little secret. The retail price for some speakers is the mgfrs cost multiplies times NINE! The mfgr's goal is to limit the amount of real info the consumer's get, and only provide worthless info if possible. Imagine that!

                  An example of this is where mfgr rate speakers by watts. They say 200 watt speakers. This is total bunk. This makes about as much sense as saying 300hp tires.

                  The adire kits if you bought them retail would cost at least $350-500 for each speaker.

                  Any receiver with atleast 50 watts/channel will drive the speakers to ear damaging levels. I'd recommend 75+ watts/channel if that's in the budget.

                  Don't buy electronics from Crutchfield. There are many reliable online discounters and group purchases available. When it's time to buy just email me and I'll link you up with some sources. We DO NOT discuss any group purchase details online




                  theAudioWorx
                  Klone-Audio

                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                  Comment

                  • Little Bruce
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2000
                    • 166

                    #10
                    Thomas....

                    Oh beleve me.....when i will be ready to buy....i will be knocking yalls door...:B

                    I just use that particular mag for "reference material" mainly to read while on throne....:B

                    No offense..I hope.

                    LB




                    Comment

                    • KennyG
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Sep 2000
                      • 745

                      #11
                      Thomas, that 300hp tires was a great analogy, it was so true I couldn't stop laughing.
                      Little bruce, it's always better to overpower your speakers than to underpower them...always!
                      There's no substitute for good clean power...just like high horsepowered engines...there's no substitute for cubic inches!!!
                      Just because it's there (the HP) doesn't mean you have to use it, but the sound of a good clean large amp is much different than the sound of a cheap small amp. Your ears and speakers will thank you.

                      Comment

                      • Little Bruce
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2000
                        • 166

                        #12
                        Being a auto tech....
                        I can relate to that...:w

                        But isnt that kind of scary to spend an ass of money for speakers with the thought of really overpowering them and blowing them?




                        Comment

                        • ThomasW
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 10934

                          #13
                          LB

                          More damage is done to speakers by people trying to drive them with an amp that's "too small", than one "too big". It's difficult to harm speakers with too much power.

                          Understand that the difference between 50 watts and 100 watts is roughly 3db more output. That's the difference between 75db and 78db!

                          Amplifier clipping is what damages speakers, especially tweeters. Clipping is where the amp itself is overdriven (generally an amp that's underpowered) and it "clips" or cuts off the top of the waveform. This clipped signal is what destroys speakers, not being driven hard by a larger amp.

                          The amp just reacts to the signal coming in from the pre-amp. Something like a water pipe. The water pressure is always there, but nothing happens until you open the valve. Well in this case the pre-amp is the valve. As the signal is passed from the CD to the pre-amp, the power amp only responds to the incoming signal. It will deliver any or all the available power to cleanly pass the signal. If there's not sufficient power the amp distorts the signal. Too much distortion equals amp clipping, then poof your speakers are toast!




                          theAudioWorx
                          Klone-Audio

                          IB subwoofer FAQ page


                          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                          Comment

                          • Tibor
                            Member
                            • Oct 2000
                            • 66

                            #14
                            Well I was just wondering what the $500 to $700 speakers would sound like ? Is there anything on the market I could compare them too ?
                            Right now my main speakers and center are Paradigm
                            (bought used good price ) and my rears are PSB and my sub which is passive is also Paradigm .
                            How would the sound from the $500 to $700 compare to the Paradigms . (monitor 3 )

                            Comment

                            • Little Bruce
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2000
                              • 166

                              #15
                              Quick note before work, and I am running late...

                              Do you think that a standard reciever with an avg. output of "100" watts per channel (5 channels) will push the Adires without worry? :?




                              Comment

                              • ThomasW
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 10934

                                #16
                                Tibor

                                The analogy was not to any specific speakers. It was instead comparing how much the speakers would cost if bought retail. And actually the price range I quoted was probably too low. The Adire kits use a Audax metal dome tweeter, and custom made kevlar reinforced paper cones. So they will have a distinct "sonic signature". Trying to "compare/equate" them to any other brand is an apple vs oranges situation. I try to avoid "conjecture" if at all possible, since I'm unable to do a direct A/B comparison

                                LB

                                A brand name receiver rated at 100 watts/channel will be just about perfect.




                                theAudioWorx
                                Klone-Audio

                                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                Comment

                                • Andrew Pratt
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 16507

                                  #17
                                  You might find this site interesting when comparing receivers ....Receiver bench tests now specs alone won't tell you about how they sound but its interesting to note rated power vs real power.




                                  Comment

                                  • ThomasW
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 10934

                                    #18
                                    Andrew

                                    That's a very helpful and interesting link. Thanks




                                    theAudioWorx
                                    Klone-Audio

                                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                    Comment

                                    • Andrew Pratt
                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 16507

                                      #19
                                      it is rather interesting isn't it That Denon 4800 sure looks impressive. I wonder what they did to the amps that makes that powerful compared to the 5700s amps.




                                      Comment

                                      • Little Bruce
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Sep 2000
                                        • 166

                                        #20
                                        Howdy yall....

                                        Thanks Andrew... might interesting site there.
                                        Makes me think twice about the JVC line of recievers......:E

                                        Wonder where i can find a Denon 4800 :?




                                        Comment

                                        • Little Bruce
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Sep 2000
                                          • 166

                                          #21
                                          Hey Thomas.....

                                          Introduced adire 281's to a local wood shop.
                                          A few things are not to clear, actually confusing.

                                          I am going to start with 2 vented for mains and 1 sealed for my center.

                                          1) The baffle layout on page 11 (kit281) is very confusing... if the speaker box has the inner supports with the baffle holes cut in them... what is the baffle layout for? we (myself and the woodman) are puzzled...

                                          2) Vent tube.... faces backside right?
                                          and do recommend 3" id or od? pvc pipe?
                                          mdf or plywood.... this woodman doesnt prefer mdf and plywood sure is expensive (his quote of approx. $48 a sheet where mdf is $20 a sheet)

                                          have to think back about the other questions....




                                          Comment

                                          • ThomasW
                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 10934

                                            #22
                                            Page 11 is the "cut list" for the sealed box. This has no ports. It does however have braces

                                            The holes in the braces (the braces are used to stiffen the cabinet)are to allow air to move around inside the cabinet. They have nothing to do with the ports.

                                            The ports are 3"ID, PVC. Yes they are mounted to the back side of the front baffle board

                                            Use MDF, do not use plywood. MDF is dense and of an even consistancy. Ply has voids, this isn't good. The reason he doesn't want to use MDF is that is heavy and hard on saw blades/tools. But you'll get better sound from a box made with MDF.




                                            theAudioWorx
                                            Klone-Audio

                                            IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                            Comment

                                            • Little Bruce
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Sep 2000
                                              • 166

                                              #23
                                              Thomas..

                                              so that baffle layout on page 11 is just for reference to supports and how the holes should be cut? and that is just for the sealed box....ok

                                              yeah, he put on a little demo of stepping of a small piece of mdf, yes it cracked and broke, then stepped on a piece of birch, it bent. Maybe the salesman coming out of him....




                                              Comment

                                              • Little Bruce
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Sep 2000
                                                • 166

                                                #24
                                                Hey yall...

                                                just noticed something..... i am a full member now.... alright!!! :B




                                                Comment

                                                • ThomasW
                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 10934

                                                  #25
                                                  Ok, speaker words, if you're going to walk the walk, you need to talk the talk. The "baffle board" is the front board that the speakers mount on. No other board is called that.

                                                  Yes MDF crumbles. So just don't bang it on anything. And DO NOT GET IT WET it turns back into saw dust. You will need to apply some kind of a finish ASAP. One really cool thing about MDF, is that if you mess up a cut or put a ding in it you can patch it with Bondo. :B

                                                  If he has furniture grade void free plywood you can use that. It should be 6 or more plys thick, not 3 or 4. One type of this is called "Baltic ply". It's VERY expensive, but nice

                                                  If he is going to assemble the cabinets make sure he glues in the ports. It's a bitch to install them after the box is assembled. The crossovers just go through the woofer holes, and are attached inside.

                                                  Here's a link to Mike Knapp's thread on building the center channel speaker. There's a good picture of the crossover, lower on his page


                                                  While I'm at it here's the link to his surrounds. Not much to see though


                                                  I'm testing a new "smile"
                                                  Gee, it's so cool I may use it as my "signature"




                                                  theAudioWorx
                                                  Klone-Audio

                                                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                  Comment

                                                  • MikeK
                                                    Junior Member
                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                    • 16

                                                    #26
                                                    Bruce,

                                                    Use MDF only. As Thomas said, the plywood that would be good is mucho expensive. Have the woodshop follow the panel cut specs. There is a page that has only the dimensions and number of panels listed. No need to let the guy at the woodshop see the drawings (that will mostly get you un-solocited advice as you have found) Show them only the cut sheet.

                                                    Assemble the cabinets yourself, it is no big deal. If you have a sabre saw you can cut your own speaker and vent holes as well. You need a sabre saw anyway, use this as an excuse to buy it!

                                                    I have built 5 of these things...let me know if you need any info or tips you cant find. You will enjoy the end product and all the worrying will be worth it.

                                                    tip #1) You can buy a vent kit from Adire that front mounts and lessens the need for a perfect cut on the vent hole. I didnt do that but wish I had.

                                                    Mike

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Little Bruce
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Sep 2000
                                                      • 166

                                                      #27
                                                      Howdy yall,

                                                      Mike, glad to see you intervene (sp?) with my diy. One thing though, my SAF wont allow for Green !! :B

                                                      I did give him both the cut sheets and the layout diagrams. I will call him and tell him to ignore everything but the cut sheet.

                                                      :? what do yall recommend for attachment of the internal braces ? The woodman recommended some version of the tongue and groove. (Grooving the side panel with a 1/4" groove and extending the braces with a 1/4 square dowel, if that makes sense) or use L-brackets?

                                                      Ok, so the baffle board is the front facing that holds the speakers... just call me formally ignorant, since yall fine fellows just filled me in....dddduuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh :B

                                                      are the vent tubes flared from adire? I presume so huh? I seen the pic of your mains with that blk and red think attached. I dont have a nice garage to get dirty in. The shop I use for side work (mechanic-ing) is not worthy of even walking through carring some uncut mdf.

                                                      Mdf isnt stain-able is it?

                                                      Bruce




                                                      Comment

                                                      • Little Bruce
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Sep 2000
                                                        • 166

                                                        #28
                                                        Thomas,

                                                        As cool as your "smile" is.... definitely need to make an appointment to see a Dentist !!!!!!!! :W




                                                        Comment

                                                        • Little Bruce
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Sep 2000
                                                          • 166

                                                          #29
                                                          Mike,

                                                          you build your from plywood, right? How heavy are the speakers?


                                                          B




                                                          Comment

                                                          • MikeK
                                                            Junior Member
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 16

                                                            #30
                                                            Nope, Mine are MDF that has been painted.

                                                            Adire's vent tubes are flared.

                                                            Mike

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Tibor
                                                              Member
                                                              • Oct 2000
                                                              • 66

                                                              #31
                                                              Little Bruce

                                                              (Mdf isnt stain-able is it? )

                                                              Okay from using MDF and eworking with it , I could say yes it stains but here is the but part there is no grain to see the MDF will just become dark and have no details wood grain of any kind.
                                                              I would seal the MDF with a sealer to stop water and moister warping or swelling the MDF .
                                                              I would paint the MDF .(paints very well )

                                                              Back to Plywood or MDF for building Speakers ,, use MDF its stable will not swell or shrink with heat or cold , will not twist or warp .
                                                              Its hard, dense, holds screws better then plywood .
                                                              Good Luck

                                                              Comment

                                                              • ThomasW
                                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 10934

                                                                #32
                                                                LB

                                                                If you're going to assemble them yourself, get some 1-1/2 long finish nails and use TiteBond II or Elmers Professional wood glue. These are the "yellow" colored glues. They wash off with water, but are fairly waterproof after they dry.

                                                                As for the braces you can just use butt joints and nail through the sides of the cabinet. Assemble the cabinet without the baffle boards first. Now need to cut dado's(grooves), or use "L" brackets

                                                                The wood cuts are designed so assembly is as follows. The sides, the top and bottom make a "frame" that the front and back, cap off. So attach the top and bottom to one side, then the other side. Pay attention the fact that the top and bottom overlap the sides.

                                                                Then when the "frame" is assembled, put on the back. Do this all at one time so you can flex the frame into proper alignment, meaning it's "square".

                                                                With MDF don't put nails too close to the edge of a panel or it will "split" it out. Use LOTS of glue. The nails are really just clamps to hold everything in place until the glue drys.

                                                                Wipe the excess glue off the outside of the box with a wet rag. Any that's inside isn't a problem, unless it's in a place where a brace goes.

                                                                After the top, bottom, 2 sides and back are all glued up, then mark the places on the inside of the box where the braces go. Apply glue to the braces and tip them slightly and move them into their proper place according the lines you made inside the box. You may need to use a hammer to tap them into proper position. Nail through from the outside.

                                                                The baffle board goes on last. Be sure the port is attached before nailing and gluing the baffle in place. Now Mike put the bafflebroad on to square the frame and then put the back on last. Either way has it's advantages and disadvantages

                                                                Later, if you want to laminate the box. You can use real wood veneer or plastic laminate. Here's a link to a center channel I made. Although it looks like wood it's really a woodgrain Formica
                                                                http://users.t-three.com/ttriff/page9.html.

                                                                You can of course stain MDF, but it's pretty bland looking,and won't appear much different than paint of the same color. I'd suggest paint, it will seal and protect. You can add veneer or plastic laminate later.

                                                                Yes Adire sells "flared" ports. These work better than straight PVC and you don't have to deal with the mess of sawing the plastic pipe.

                                                                When the time comes to install the drivers(speakers). They are held in with "T-nuts". Now these don't like to stick well in MDF, so I'll post as special "how-to" for those later.




                                                                theAudioWorx
                                                                Klone-Audio

                                                                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Little Bruce
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Sep 2000
                                                                  • 166

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Thomas,

                                                                  Your center speaker...uhhhhhhhhhhhh

                                                                  (kinda speechless) :B

                                                                  Question... noted your driver holes have recessed cuts for driver position and i guess a place to hold the driver...... that answered the woodmans question about why the plans showed 2 size dimensions in the plans. How deep should the recession be to properly fit the drivers?




                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • ThomasW
                                                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 10934

                                                                    #34
                                                                    LB

                                                                    Flush mounting the woofers isn't necessary. It's primarily done for looks. Also it's usually done on cabinets where the front baffle is 1.5" thick. If you inset the woofers in 3/4" material there's not much "meat" for the fasteners. Having your builder make these kind of "details" is only going to increase the price, and not increase the performance.

                                                                    If you want to double up the front baffle to 1.5" thick, then, the cut depth is the thickness of the steel mounting flange of the speaker basket(frame), plus the the thickness of the woofer gasket. I don't know what that measurement is. You would need to have the woofers in hand and measure them.

                                                                    Here's a link to a webpage where James Johnson built a very nice pair of the ported speakers. I think he used real hardwood veneer. That's the only thing that would explain the $700 cost. The speakers are down in the middle of his page.
                                                                    Latest news coverage, email, free stock quotes, live scores and video are just the beginning. Discover more every day at Yahoo!


                                                                    I just noticed that the flared ports from Adire are $19ea. Here a link to the same ports from Parts Express for $14.50ea. If you decide to use these, get them before the builder cuts the port holes, just to be on the safe side. If you decide to go with PVC pipe, the cost will be about $1.50ea. The flared ports make the bass a little better, because the air moves more smoothly through them.





                                                                    theAudioWorx
                                                                    Klone-Audio

                                                                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                                    Comment

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