Wet sanding and piano black finish on a table tops

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  • Patrick Sun
    Super Senior Member
    • Aug 2000
    • 1380

    Wet sanding and piano black finish on a table tops

    For Sunosub III, I've decided to go with a round table top look. I'm not quite sure if I'm doing the wetsanding correctly, but here goes:

    1. Clean off the top's surface.
    2. Spray paint the top with black paint.
    3. Wet sand for smoothness and little bits of debris removal.
    4. Clean off the top's surface.
    5. Apply clear lacquer.

    Once the lacquer dries, I get paint brush streaks.

    6. Wet sand the lacquer layer for smoothness. I guess this is the time-consuming part because of the brush streaks, it's really tough to get the surface really smooth again.

    And then I'll be repeating steps 1-6 all over again.

    Am I doing this right before I get to the final coat of paint and then I'll be using a polycrylic clear coat to seal it.




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  • Mike Temple
    Junior Member
    • Sep 2000
    • 18

    #2
    Pat,

    If this is anything like auto finishes then sand, coat, sand, coat, etc. the black paint untill this is as perfect as it gets. You could get by with just doing coats of clear on top of each other but if the base black isn't perfect, it will show through. sand using finer and finer paper until perfect then apply the clear and sand with finer and finer until ti hs a perfect smoothness to it. don't rely on just the clear to create the shine, make sure the black has no orange peel, imperfections, or dull spots and you will be rewarded.

    Comment

    • Kyle Richardson
      Member
      • Aug 2000
      • 51

      #3
      (Repost from another forum for the benefits (I hope) of this forum and its members)

      Patrick, I just finished the piano black finish on my new Tempest sub and here is what I did.
      1. Dry Sanded bare wood smooth using 220 grit.

      2. Painted 1 coat of gloss black lacquer paint. Let it dry.

      3. Wet Sanded the 1st coat of paint lightly with 400 grit.

      4. Painted another coat of gloss black lacquer.

      5. I wondered if I should lightly sand the top coat of paint to rough up the paint so the gloss clear coat would stick. After asking and getting answers that said both Yes and No I decided not to. (It stuck just fine without)

      6. I used a quart size of Deft Clear Gloss Wood Finish which is a lacquer as well stay with the same type of product as your paint.

      7. I applied 3 coats of this by brush without sanding in between coats. The can says that you can apply coats at 2 hour intervals so I did all 3 coats in 1 night.

      8. I had a lot of brush marks no matter how careful I was not to overbrush so don't worry if you do. I waited about 5 days to wet sand down the top layer of clear lacquer to get the brush marks out using 400 grit. Use a sanding block and put a drop or two of dishwashing soap in the water to help lubricate it. It will take a lot of sanding and you have to be careful not to sand down too far and start sanding the paint layer.

      9. I am impatient so I decided all of this sanding to get the brush marks out was for the birds. I got out my Wagner power painter and filled the canister with the clear gloss lacquer. I sprayed on one thick layer of this and got high in the process (cheap to build but expensive on the brain cells). This worked very well to my surprise! I still had small dimple marks that I had to sand out but not nearly as "deep" as brush marks.

      10. I was finished applying the clear finish. I started sanding it smooth using 400 grit wet very lightly. I then went to 600, then 1000, then finally 1500 grit. After using 1500 grit I was hoping I would start to see shine but didnt (this was my first project of this sort) and got really worried. Have no fear.

      11. I went to Autozone and picked up some Turtle Wax paste rubbing compound and polising compound. I applied about 4 coats of rubbing compound which removes 1500 grit scratches and the shine was slowly reappearing.

      12. I then used the polishing compund and the shine really starts to show now. This is a very slow and tedious process of rubbing and removing the polish. It seemed like I averaged about 3-4 hours of polishing along for each endcap.
      I still did not have the finish that I wanted. I had a lot of very fine "spider web" looking scratches that were just not coming out!

      13. I went back to Autozone and picked up some Meguires "Show Car Glaze". I tested it on one of my endcaps at the store and saw an immediate improvement! I then went home and polished for about another 2-3 hours on each piece and finally got the finish I wanted!

      I used Turtle Wax and I don't think I should have. I think the Meguires "step" series would have been a better choice since I think they are of higher quality and probably could have saved me some time. This is a very slow process and very tedious as I mentioned above, but the results are worth it.

      Disclaimer: This is not the only or right way to do this type of finish. There might be better ways of doing it but it worked for me. If you have any questions just ask.

      Here are a few links that I used for reference in the process: http://www.gremlan.org/~lgebhart/diy.html and http://www.hometheaterforum.com/uub/...ML/001566.html

      Comment

      • Patrick Sun
        Super Senior Member
        • Aug 2000
        • 1380

        #4
        Mike/Kyle, thanks for the pointers. I can already see the error of my ways, and hope it's not too late to adjust in mid-stream.

        I guess you have to use lacquer thinner to clean up the brushes?




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        Comment

        • Kyle Richardson
          Member
          • Aug 2000
          • 51

          #5
          Yep, just a thinner works well for cleaning the brush.

          Comment

          • Patrick Sun
            Super Senior Member
            • Aug 2000
            • 1380

            #6
            And lacquer thinner is different from mineral spirits?




            PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs
            PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs

            Comment

            • outhok
              Junior Member
              • Sep 2000
              • 5

              #7
              Mineral Spirits (commonly called paint thinner) will not desolve laquer. Auto parts stores that sell Bondo and primer should have it, or look under Automotive Paint in the phone book. It might be worth renting a buffer when you get the final coat on. Saves a ton of time. Just don't let it heat the paint too much. Laquer will soften and smear.
              Keith

              Comment

              • Patrick Sun
                Super Senior Member
                • Aug 2000
                • 1380

                #8
                Is it normal to lose your identity after you do a lot of wet-sanding? I don't have any fingerprints left.




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                Comment

                • ThomasW
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 10934

                  #9
                  Patrick who? :B




                  theAudioWorx
                  Klone-Audio

                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                  Comment

                  • Patrick Sun
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 1380

                    #10
                    I feel like that sometimes.

                    New question: I wet sanded the latest paint layer down to a nice smooth surface, but when I brush on the lacquer, it dries and almost 50% of the coat has raised cow web patterns in it now. What am I doing wrong?

                    Am I using the right brush (is there a lacquer brush specially made for applying lacquer)? Should I just lay it on real thick?




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                    Comment

                    • Mike Temple
                      Junior Member
                      • Sep 2000
                      • 18

                      #11
                      Pat,

                      usually when the coat crazes like this it is because the lower coat(s) did not have enough time to dry. Sometimes incompatible types of paint will do this also but since you have been using them together, I doubt that this is it. Paint needs a long time to dry in between different types of paint. ie: black to clear.
                      It may also be that the clear was put on too thick if you tried to do it in one coat, as thick coats of paint will dry on the surface and then dry underneath, causing he crazing you can see.
                      Either way, if it cant be sanded out, you have to start over. Sorry about the bad news.

                      Comment

                      • Patrick Sun
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 1380

                        #12
                        Mike, do you think I could apply a little bit of lacquer thinner to smooth out the cow webs?




                        PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs
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                        Comment

                        • Mike Temple
                          Junior Member
                          • Sep 2000
                          • 18

                          #13
                          Pat,

                          Be careful with lacquer thinner, it is volitile and if used too much and the MDF is still porus, you may never be able to get the surface perfect. You could try a small amount on a rag and buff the top with it. If the crazing goes away, then it wasn't a paint interaction, but may have been too thick of a layer. Let the top dry completely after using the thinner before you work on it , it may look ok right away, but with paint, patience is a virtue, as the longer it sits, relatively, the harder and more completely it cures.
                          Good luck

                          Comment

                          • Patrick Sun
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 1380

                            #14
                            Mike, this is my 2nd coat of paint/lacquer so the MDF is underneath both sets of layers for now. But I'll tread carefully, just dabbing at the cob webs and then wet sand the rest of it.




                            PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs
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                            Comment

                            • outhok
                              Junior Member
                              • Sep 2000
                              • 5

                              #15
                              You might want to go here:
                              TOUCHSTONE PAINT & LACQUER CO
                              1465 NORTHSIDE DR NW, ATLANTA, GA 30318, (404) 355-0502
                              Looks like they might be within 20 or so miles of you.
                              Lacquer WILL lift and wrinkle enamel. On auto finishes that are baked or catalyzed it is less of a problem. If I have to coat enamel with lacquer, I first carefully prime (with a gun) in very thin coats until the surface is sealed.

                              Some paint stored also carry a refillable spray bottle that might work for spraying smaller area's like your project.

                              Keith

                              Comment

                              • Patrick Sun
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 1380

                                #16
                                Thanks for the info/advice.

                                I had to power sand off the clear coat of lacquer, and this left me with lots of divots in the paint surface, so I used some wood filler and let it dry, and then I sanded it off and most of the divots got filled in, so then I was able to clean it off, wet sand it nice and smooth again.

                                Holy smoke! I am woozy from apply 2 coats of black lacquer paint on my top endcap. Ugh. And this was with my garage door wide open. Tomorrow, I'm painting the endcap out on my driveway in the open air.




                                PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs
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                                Comment

                                • Mike Temple
                                  Junior Member
                                  • Sep 2000
                                  • 18

                                  #17
                                  Pat,
                                  If you feel at all sick or woozy, GET OUT! This stuff can do serious brain damage and even death if done in close confines. It screws up your reasoning and you may think you are just woozy but you can pass out and then the fumes can really mess you up. If you do work outside, you are going to get a lot more dust, etc. into the paint but it is better to sand forever than screw with your health.

                                  These effects can be CUMULATIVE, so if you do this day after day, you can get worse and worse and not even realize it. This just happened to my father in law who was doing a little bit of painting every day and attributed the headaches etc. to working too hard until he couldn't stand up after about 7 days of working, and ended up under a doctors care.

                                  Be careful and hope it turns out like you want it to.

                                  Comment

                                  • ThomasW
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 10934

                                    #18
                                    Patrick

                                    Get a good respirator not a dust mask. The ones with chemical packs for organic/inorganic vapors These are about $30 at the home center stores. They will save your brain.

                                    Also use a fan with the garage door open. The vapors are usually heavier than air, so they stay low to the floor, and you'll be stirring them up when you walk, if you don't use the fan to circulate them out.

                                    Not only are the fumes toxic to brain tissue, they are also carcinogenic! SO USE A RESPIRATOR, even if you are applying the lacquer outside!




                                    theAudioWorx
                                    Klone-Audio

                                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                    Comment

                                    • Patrick Sun
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 1380

                                      #19
                                      Well, after a weekend of sanding, spackling and re-sanding out some problem areas, I still have some imperfections, and I think I'm just going to just leave it as is, and chalk it up to it being my first (and maybe my last) endcap cover. I will apply another 2 coats of black and clear lacquer (if I had known to use the spray can version from the very get-go, I know I would have gotten better results, maybe next time).

                                      Now with the clear lacquer in the spray can, my clear coats go on with no streaks at all, and I don't waste time wet-sanding out the lines ridges. This was definitely a learning experience. Once I'm done with the 2 coats tonight, I'm leaving it alone for a week to allow the clear coat to harden. I will also heed the advice and not wax it for 3 months. Thanks for all the tips (and the warning on dangers of the fumes, I have a fan working after I know the paint has dried)




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                                      Comment

                                      • DanB
                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                        • Oct 2000
                                        • 24

                                        #20
                                        Well...got in a little late on this topic..but-

                                        Your best bet on your wood endcaps is to use a high-quality exterior enamel (or even an automotive enamel) applied with a hi-quality spraygun/compressor combo.
                                        You are not gonna get a "quality" finish with a spray can and cheap lacquer. That kind of paint is not real happy being sanded- wet or otherwise. You can hand rub paint out..but you need heat (as in a buffer) to get a true mirror shine.
                                        I guess its all in how you want your sub to look.
                                        You can probably find a buddy to lend ya a compressor...you can buy a spray gun at Sears for roughly 40-60 bucks. Thin the enamel down, pour it in the spray gun, tack cloth your surface to be painted, and spray away.
                                        Having built custom Harleys for a hobby for the last 7 years, I may hire my talents out painting these DIY subs that seems to be all the rage right now. :>




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