Meet my new babies: The Sun Ones!

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  • Patrick Sun
    Super Senior Member
    • Aug 2000
    • 1380

    Meet my new babies: The Sun Ones!

    I just got done with my new DIY speakers tonight, and have been listening to CDs aplenty.

    I'll be applying hammered metal spray paint on the front baffles, and the veneering the sides, the back will most likely be painted black

    Here's a shot of them:



    Whew, it was a lot of work, but I think time well spent.




    PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs
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  • Pat
    Super Senior Member
    • Aug 2000
    • 1637

    #2
    Very nice Patrick!
    I'll bet they sound as good as they look
    They will probably sweeten up a bit after they get broken in.




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    Comment

    • Patrick Sun
      Super Senior Member
      • Aug 2000
      • 1380

      #3
      Here's my preliminary graph of the frequency response . Bear in mind that this was my initial design, with a guess on how much l-padding I needed on the tweeter. It appears I guessed on the low side, so I'll bump it from -3dB to -4dB (or -4.5dB) for the l-pad on the tweeter. I have a nasty room induced hump around 100Hz that I can't do much about, and then a slight dip around 300Hz. So all in all, I'm pretty pleased for now. Anything measured after 10KHz is basically caca due to my RS SPL meter not doing a good job beyond that frequency.




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      Comment

      • Pat
        Super Senior Member
        • Aug 2000
        • 1637

        #4
        Patman, that is a very respectable graph!
        It will be interesting to see how much it changes after they break-in a little.




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        Comment

        • Patrick Sun
          Super Senior Member
          • Aug 2000
          • 1380

          #5
          Well, I'll probably change out the l-pad on the tweeter, so...I doubt if the break-in numbers will be consistent anymore. Doh!




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          Comment

          • Andrew Pratt
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 16507

            #6
            Pl@ thats a very nice looking response plot esp for new drivers. Good job!




            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15261

              #7
              Nice looking cabinets, Pat. Unfortunately the link to the response graph wouldn't work for me.

              You may find that room positioning can tame the effects you describe at 100Hz and 300Hz; I've found RGP Acoustics software to be real helpful in evaluating that stuff before moving things all over the place.

              Let us know how they look when you get them finished.

              Regards,

              Jon




              Earth First!
              _______________________________
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              Comment

              • Patrick Sun
                Super Senior Member
                • Aug 2000
                • 1380

                #8
                Jon, I fixed the link above, I apologize for changing the file name to accomodate another post.

                Here's the 1m measurement I took last night.

                Most people think it's floor bounce. I will try a few things:

                1. Raise the speakers up a foot more off the floor.

                2. Reverse the 0.5 woofer leads to see if I get a big null (proper connection of the leads) or if the response flatlines (improper connection of the leads)

                3. Reverse the tweeter leads and check for null around the crossover point of 2000Hz.

                I also have an alternate lower ordered crossover for this speaker design.




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                Comment

                • Lex
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Apr 2001
                  • 27461

                  #9
                  Patrick, great job on the speaks! I thought it before, but I guess I didn't say it, lol.

                  Excellent work. So, you love em right?

                  Lex




                  Cable Guy DVD Collection
                  Doug
                  "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                  Comment

                  • Patrick Sun
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 1380

                    #10
                    Lex, thanks. I'm getting closer to loving their sound.

                    Okay, I did a nearfield measurement around my "problematic" 200-400Hz range, and the dip was not there when measuring about 6" away in between the 2 woofers.

                    So, I used my old speakers, laid them on their sides, and now I'm using them as my speaker stands that are around 18" high (my normal stands were around 7" high). The dip around 320Hz is less prominent now. Here's the revised frequency graphs.

                    1m on axis

                    3m on axis

                    The rise in frequency response starting around 4-5KHz actually tracks with Morel's published spec .

                    The rest of my graphed response past 10KHz is pretty much poo-poo due to the limitations of my Radio Shack SPL meter.

                    With the 0.5 woofer being crossed over at 500Hz, you do see a slight contribution from 600-2000Hz on the graphs.
                    ----

                    (I didn't have a chance to graph this last night):
                    In order to try to raise the 2KHz-4KHz output, I changed my tweeter crossover to a 2nd order butterworth, and increased the l-pad to -5dB (from -3.1dB), and lowered the 0.5 woofer crossover by dropping in a 5mH inductor (xo frequency 125Hz), and I noticed the response from 200-2000Hz was lowered by 1dB across the board, but my high end 4KHz and up got brighter by 2dB (probably had a lot to do with the lower ordered crossover).

                    So, I'll be going back to my original 3rd order tweeter crossover, and leaving in the -5dB L-pad, but I may leave the 5mH inductor for the 0.5 woofer for now (but I kinda liked the bass boost).




                    PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs
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                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15261

                      #11
                      Good looking graph, the dip is right in the range for floor bounce, given your original stands.

                      One of the early "upgrades" for some B&W speakers that had a similar floor bounce problem (801's) was to put them on stands raising them another 18" or so. That's where software evaluation of speaker stand design or room positioning really comes in handy. I wrote a MathCAD program years ago to do a basic three boundary analysis, but for $99 the RPG acoustics program takes into account all room boundaries plus room modal patterns and allows you to specify ranges of listner position and speaker position, then it will do a regression analysis with multiple simlulations to seek the flattest in room response with listener position and speaker position. It has provision for modeling the sources and heights in the speakers, and can even include seperate subwoofers, and optimize a surround system. It's a lot of stuff for under $100; it originally sold (to installers) for $500.

                      Congrats on your project; they look pretty nice.

                      Regards,

                      Jon




                      Earth First!
                      _______________________________
                      We'll screw up the other planets later....
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • Lex
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Apr 2001
                        • 27461

                        #12
                        How about off axis a bit, shooting up just slightly. Might smooth the transient response out. Whatever the hell that is. hehe.

                        Lex
                        Doug
                        "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                        Comment

                        • Patrick Sun
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 1380

                          #13
                          Jon, funny you should mention raising the speaker height. I wound up using my old speakers, laying them on their sides, and now I have true "speaker" stands that raise my new speakers 18" off the ground.

                          Okay, I think I'm really close to a final crossover (xo) design. I spent a lot of time last night tweaking and listening. Here are the graphs:

                          3m measurement of design 2

                          I changed the tweeter xo from 3rd order BW to 2nd order BW, and changed the 0.5 woofer's xo from 500Hz to 125Hz. The 1.0 woofer's 4th order LR is overcompensating and dragging down the response from 200-1200Hz. (BW=Butterworth filter)

                          Just look at the right speaker output for both graphs for Design 2 and 2B, the left speaker output is used as a basis for comparison with the previous original xo design 1.

                          3m measurement of design 2b

                          Now I added a zobel on the tweeter, and things are improving. I noticed that the glare on female vocals is mostly gone, still a residual left from the 1.0 woofer output. The 1.0 woofer xo still needs work.

                          (Note: Zobels are impedance compensations circuits that stabilize the impedance of the driver because some drivers have a rising impedance from their inductance, Zobels consists of a resistor and capacitor wire in series, and then that combination is wire in parallel across the driver terminals)

                          3m measurement of design 3

                          Here I change the 1.0 woofer's xo to a 2nd order BW and place a zobel on it as well. Now the glare is really gone. I have this right ear that's senstive to glare due to a small hole in the eardrum. But with the zobel in place, it totally smoothed out the the response in a way that you can't see on the graphs. I left my left speaker with the original xo as a baseline for comparison until I decided I got the right speaker sound
                          "right". By listening to the left and right speakers alternating between them with the balance control, it was obvious that the original xo was not doing much to stifle the glare, and it sounded bright and immediate, and though it may sound up close and personal, it did lead to listener's fatigue. Diana Krall finally sounded "normal" again to me with the latest xo. The speakers now may sound a little laid back, but only on certain CDs, so I think production value has a lot with how these speakers sound.

                          You'll notice that with room gain, the F3 is around 40-45Hz. I'm pretty happy with the bass output from these speakers. And there's plenty of air being pushed out of the port on the speaker's backside.

                          The graph above shows both speaker output after I changed both xo's to the latest incarnation. While it looks like the corrected numbers has a dip at 2000Hz, I don't hear it in male or female vocals. It could be the large correction value of -2.5dB for that frequency value (the uncorrected value is pretty much in line with the rest of the measurements).

                          Here's the 1m meter response for both speakers (they basically track each
                          other very closely with very minor deviation):

                          1m measurement of design 3

                          The 1m F3 appears to be around 55Hz, but in a normal room, with room gain, it'll drop by 10Hz as seen in the 3m measurement graph earlier.

                          While the top end from 4000Hz and up looks humpy, the zobels smooth out the highs and the speakers don't really sound that "hot", and I'm tempted to swap out the current l-pad of -5dB to -3.6dB and see if I can get a bit more forwardness in the front vocals.

                          Glare is one of those things that doesn't quite show up on the graphs, but it's obvious when you listen to the speakers themselves.

                          I think I will replace the 0.5 woofer xo with a 2mH inductor to move the xo point from 125Hz to around 300Hz. This might smooth out the rest of the bottom end.

                          Whew! I plowed through many CDs after making the changes from design 3 and was much happier with the performance of these speakers. I will need to find someone to audition them and see what they say about them. Good thing I have some friend coming into town this week, I get to show them the new speakers.




                          PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs
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                          Comment

                          • ThomasW
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 10934

                            #14
                            Pat

                            You might want to consider using some felt gasket material for diffraction control around the tweeter.

                            Jon and I used it on both the Whisper and X-1 SLAMMs





                            Now unfortunately the black or green stuff they sell at cloth/fabric stores doesn't work well, too much plastic in the formula.

                            So checkout the custom gasket mfgr in the yellow pages. Get material with the highest wool content. Many will sell 3/8"-3/4" material by the running ft. I usually get the 3/4" stuff and split it. This makes a nice "fuzzy" layer for use around a tweeter. Make the piece as large as you can covering as much of the tweeter flange and surrounding MDF. The cutout for the dome should be square not round.

                            I use Scotch 77 spray adhesive applied to the back side of the material. This way it can easily be removed/repositioned

                            If you have trouble finding it let me know and I'll send you out some to play with.




                            theAudioWorx
                            Klone-Audio

                            IB subwoofer FAQ page


                            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                            Comment

                            • Patrick Sun
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 1380

                              #15
                              Thomas, do you put this stuff on the backside of the tweeter faceplate? (Just a bit confused/dazed by the sweet photos you posted).




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                              • ThomasW
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 10934

                                #16
                                Pat

                                It's on the front (exposed) face of the tweeter and usually overlaps onto the exposed areas of the front baffle between the tweeter and midbass driver.

                                It's job is to absorb what would become the reflections that bounce off the tweeter faceplate and the baffle. These reflections cause comb filter effects when they mix with the direct energy being radiated by the drivers.

                                Might also try a strip on the exposed MDF strip between the 2 midbass drivers.




                                theAudioWorx
                                Klone-Audio

                                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                Comment

                                • Patrick Sun
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 1380

                                  #17
                                  Oh, the grey material that's around the tweeter on the baffle on those speakers! Doh! I'm wondering how I can do that and not make my speaker really ugly.

                                  If I use my hammered metal paint on the front baffle, and apply 3 coats, I'll get a spider-webbish surface on them which will be pretty bumpy. Would that be good enough to ward off the reflections?

                                  I don't even know where I'd look for that stuff.




                                  PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs
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                                  Comment

                                  • ThomasW
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 10934

                                    #18
                                    The easiest way to hide the felt is by making a grill cloth.

                                    I also usually stain it black with leather dye.

                                    Look in the yellow pages under "gasket manufacturers, custom or suppliers"

                                    There is no accoustic benefit to any kind of paint. The goal is to absorb the sound, only something like the felt will do that.




                                    theAudioWorx
                                    Klone-Audio

                                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

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