Newform speakers

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  • Ken Lopata
    Junior Member
    • Aug 2000
    • 17

    Newform speakers

    I'm planning on upgrading all my speakers. Right now I'm leaning towards Paradigm Studio 100's v2 for fronts and 4 studio 40's for sides and rears. I've been reading alot about maggies and then I saw someone who likes Newform better then the maggies. I know you love ribbon speakers. What do you think of maggies and Newforms. I'm am interested in the Newform R630 and R645 as is and in the kit form. I can get a great deal on the Paradigms from a dealer in Canada close to 50% less then what people pay in the US. On another note, have you started builder your HE15 sub yet. I think we're all waiting for the p.r.'s. Thanks.
  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10934

    #2
    Ken

    I'm waiting on all my stuff from John J.

    I haven't heard the Newforms. But in theory I object to any design where the XO point is as high as John Meyer uses. I'd prefer a pair of Maggie 1.6s instead. I had a pair of 1.4s for a while, they were really nice. Had I kept them I would of added a filler woofer from 100Hz-250Hz, to take the midbass load off the panels. This is important for loud HT use




    theAudioWorx
    Klone-Audio

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

    Comment

    • Andrew Pratt
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2000
      • 16507

      #3
      thomas are you talking about my 1.4's? if so what do you mean re adding a mid bass driver?




      Comment

      • ThomasW
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2000
        • 10934

        #4
        Andrew

        You probably can't do this secondary to the SAF. But if you eventually want to maximize the performance of the 1.4's, think about adding a filler woofer. Possibly a pair of 10"s/side. Run them from the sub XO point up to 200-250Hz. This will take a considerable load of the maggies, and most likely not have a negative impact on the sonics.

        Here's a pic of a Quad ESL setting on a pair of 12" woofers setup in a dipole config. This is the best way to add filler woofers to any planar system. Using the drivers in a dipole setup (open-air) is the best way to match the transient response of the maggies. The one facing in and one facing out arrangement simply cancels the odd order harmonics






        theAudioWorx
        Klone-Audio

        IB subwoofer FAQ page


        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

        Comment

        • Lexman
          Super Senior Member
          • Jun 2000
          • 1777

          #5
          Interesting speaker Thomas.

          Lex

          Comment

          • Andrew Pratt
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 16507

            #6
            I'll have to keep that in mind for later when I have my own room. Are those 10" drivers in an IB config or is there a missing 'back' panel for the driver facing away from us? I was playing around this afternoon with a MMG as a centre and tilting the 1.4's and I liked it so I'm fairly sure thats the route I'm going to go. With the MMG on the floor leaning against the TV sonics were off but it was still useable. When I place it on top of the TV it was almost a perfect match Hopefully the SMG sounds similar to the MMG and or the 1.4's.




            Comment

            • ThomasW
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 10934

              #7
              Andrew

              The box is open on the back, so it looks just like the front. The configuration is a dipole woofer not a sub. An IB has the rear of the speaker firing into a different room than the front

              The SMGs will be very close to the 1.4s or MMGs.

              Just put the MMG on top of the RPTV while listening to it. Put it back on the floor for "storage"




              theAudioWorx
              Klone-Audio

              IB subwoofer FAQ page


              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15261

                #8
                Hi Guys,

                Using the woofers in dipole configuration to supplant the planar driver has some specific advantages:

                1) maintains same radiation pattern in midbass as in midrange- i.e., a dipole figure eight.

                2) reduces room interaction by nearly eliminating side radiation- part of the "clarity" advantage of planars, which speakers like the Legacy Whisper replicate

                3) Using the drivers in both facing directions, wired out of phase, cancels the *even* order harmonics (asymetrical transfer function). These are distortion which is a function of the asymetrical BL product due to pole piece design- some speakers, like some scanspeak models, do a good job of minimizing this with exotic pole piece designs. Odd order distortion is distortion dependent on how far out of the gap either foward or backwards the voice coil moves- dependent on just the amount of amplitude out of the centered region.

                For the maggies, a tall line array would give the best acoustic results- similar room loading and radiation pattern, but of course, would suffer the most in SAF.

                Mit freundlich gruessen aus deutscheland,

                Jon




                Earth First!
                _______________________________
                We'll screw up the other planets later....
                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • Andrew Pratt
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 16507

                  #9
                  sorry to drag this up from the grave but I'm very close to actually building some sort of driver unit for the bottom of my SMG'a (1.4's plus drivers are too tall..at least for now) So Thomas and I were talking about going a sealed sub for the bass....wouldn't the dipole model above be better? The SMGa's are only 18" wide so I'd have to go with a pair of 8" drivers instead of the dual 10"...would this be preferable to the sealed 13" unit thomas? ...it might be possible to use the 1.4's on a pair of dual 1o" drivers but i'd have to do a lot of sweet talking first One problem is going to be keeping the cost down though since buying 4 drivers is going to be expensive...at least for me




                  Comment

                  • ThomasW
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 10934

                    #10
                    Andrew

                    Like I said in the email, yes you could use 8" drivers but, they would need to be in a line array. You couldn't get enough output from a pair in a dipole config. You would need 2 high excursion 10" or average 12"s if you go dipole. Dipole would give the absolute best match with the Maggies. Second best is sealed with a Qtc of 0.50




                    theAudioWorx
                    Klone-Audio

                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                    Comment

                    • Andrew Pratt
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 16507

                      #11
                      thanks thomas just looking at all my options So do you know of any sub $40 10"s or 12"s that would work for a dipole config?




                      Comment

                      • ThomasW
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 10934

                        #12
                        Just off the top of my head I don't know any $40 drivers that will work. JonMarsh is staying with me through next wednesday, so I'll ask him if he has any suggestions. It's primarily getting something that has the correct T/S parameters and has good quality sound. This sometimes isn't an easy task. If you look at the T/S info on the 15"s we used for the Whisper clones, these are almost "ideal" for dipole use. Unfortunately 10"/12"s with the same parameters aren't readily available



                        The important factors are the fairly high power handling, moderately high Qts, relatively high efficiency, and fairly low Fs. Also paper cone drivers usually have fewer problems with cone "breakup" (meaning the cone is stiffer) compared to poly cone drivers.




                        theAudioWorx
                        Klone-Audio

                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                        Comment

                        • sfdoddsy
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2000
                          • 496

                          #13
                          I used to have a pair of dipole subs to go with my Martin Logans and can confirm the comments above. You can find photos here, look in the 'Previous HT' section:

                          http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1638044

                          The Celestion System 6000 (which is what they are) can be had for around $800 used for both subs and the Xover/EQ. Original cost was about $3K.

                          If you don't need huge levels, it's still a great sounding system.

                          Steve




                          Steve's DIY Dipoles
                          Steve's OB Journey

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15261

                            #14
                            Hi Andrew,

                            You're being pretty tough on us to try to come up with a driver in the price range you're quoting. I realize that it depends on what overall results you want, plus budgetary issues. If the budget is that tight, and of course I'm presuming you're biamping with something like a Marchand crossover, and a seperate bass amp.

                            Using a dipole style enclosure like the post above, I'd recommend a 10" or 12" normally, but there's an Eton paper cone 8" woofer at Madisound for $46 each, that in pairs for each side might cut it if your maximum SPL's expectations aren't too high. Remember, this is dipole woofer, not subwoofer. Fx is 32 Hz, Qts is 0.418, should be able to do a clean dipole woofer from 50-60 up to a couple of hundred Hz or more; note that for dipole the output falls off at 6 dB/octave, not 12 db/octave as for sealed box, so with good positioning you could get usable bass down to 45 or 50. Even better would be a line array like we're doing for Tom's R75's, if you could afford more drivers. For the most deep bass in a "small" setup, a dipole enclosure like the above post, with a pair of Shiva 12's, or similar driver, would be the "hot" setup.

                            Regards,

                            Jon




                            Earth First!
                            _______________________________
                            We'll screw up the other planets later....
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • Andrew Pratt
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 16507

                              #15
                              thanks I'e decided to hold off on the project for the time being...when I get into a house and have more room I'll relook at the project and hopefuly have more funds to play with...maybe I'll do an array along one side of the 1.4's or ???




                              Comment

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